HELP ME PLEASE.....DOES GOD/JESUS REALLY EXIST????

Nagual · November 04, 2003, 02:19:21

Bringing your friends to the rescue jimbola...? lmao [

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quote:
If you say a thing about rage club then it's Fist City for you mate.

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, I'm sure that your mate will be very helpfull in this forum.

Now, my question is still pending... Here it is again:
Could you please translate in simple words your sentence?
"Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible."

quote:
"How can you state that something does not exists until proven so...?"
Surely you can see the flaws in this one. Please prove that there is a god.

It's funny how you avoid some parts of my questions like...
"The only thing you can say is: maybe it exists, or maybe not."

Maybe you will get it with an example:

I tell you that there is an animal that can live in acid. So, until I prove it to you; does this mean this animal does not exists...? Nope; it just means that maybe it exists or maybe not.

Another one: If I tell you that I have hum... a red key in my pocket, but I don't care enough to prove it to you. Does this mean this red key does not exist? Sure it does; it is in my pocket. And who cares if you don't believe me... [|)]

It's not because you don't have a proof of the existence of something that you can state that this things does not exist. Period.

jimbola · November 04, 2003, 03:51:21

I can state whatever I like if it is my opinion, you say that if there is no proof of something then that is not sufficient grounds for discounting it as a reality, I believe that in certain cases such as this that would not be strictly true. A key being in your pocket is entirely believable, I consider that god existing is not.
No my friend, if you wish to have people actually believe in the reality of what you tell them then you must prove it otherwise it's just gossip or hearsay at best.
And to answer your question yes, god does in my opinion only exist in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
Whats the matter anyway, do you not like alternative opinions?

Nagual · November 04, 2003, 04:36:04

Something more/less believable means nothing... For some people without contact with modern society, what is common for us like a simple plane/TV/camera, is unbelievable to them. So, god, acid fish, key... all the same. Who cares about belief. I did not expect someone down to earth like you to show some beliefs.

You still did not answer my question... Here it is once more:
Could you please translate in simple words your sentence:
"Does god exist-only in the hearts and minds of the gullible."

And for your mate: if you read my posts, I said:
"That's a little weak; I expected something more challenging from a "christian basher" like you (guessed from your useless website)..." which is, from his profile, http://jesusseesus.com .

And for me this site is useless and meant to attract christian people and try to offense them. By the way, you have XXX material and no warning for children! I don't know if it's legal in UK; gonna check.

Mustardseed · November 04, 2003, 06:02:47

Jimbola
You are simply not being honest and straight forward, and seem to be locked into a stubborn self generated viewpoint. You keep sidetracking the conversation with emotionally loaded statements and make absolutely no sense. It's like as if you want to prove that Africa does not exist and there is no such thing as a giraffe. Just becourse you do not understand it.

I am sure that many people who first heard that the Wright flew said that just isnt possible , like the key in the pocket, that ain't logic!! However they did, and it is, but at a very much higher level that most folks knew about then.

Lots of things seem hard to believe at first much later make a lot of sense. History is full of them.

Now if you decide to continue this attitude , I expect you and Lost Prophet would make fun ridicule and agress against this post, and you know what ....be my guest.

I can garentee you one thing, you will learn nothing new but will most definately only solidify yourself in your own pre concieved idea.

Regards Mustardseed

jimbola · November 04, 2003, 08:18:15

For the secon time I will answer your question yes, god does in my opinion only exist in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
What part of that don't you understand?

The Wright brothers flying, the television, all tangiable solid inventions, scientific developments such as gene therapy so we may "play god", I can believe in anything like that, I am happy to accept that someone may one day do the "impossible" and invent a machine which removes the fluff from my belly button automatically on a daily basis, a god however is an entirely different concept and science is proving every day that the universe can be manipulated in many ways by humans without god being involved in any way. You seem to imply that I am narrow minded because I refuse to accept the notion of a god in the face of no evidence whatsoever, I could accuse you of the same for your harbouring of the opposite view, I would even go so far as to say that you have been brainwashed by religious organisations who put far fetched ideas into peoples heads with a view to controlling them.

kakkarot · November 04, 2003, 09:27:58

proof of God's existance? perhaps there is some, perhaps there isn't. but if you already believe that "there is no proof", then any real proof shown to you will be swept under your mental carpet.

many scientists already do this by trying to explain away metaphysical things as physical things. they've been duped and made fun of by frauds and fakes too often in the past while not being able to explain the real metaphysical happening, and so rather than look like fools they've taken to the stance that the metaphysical is make-believe and have made that proclaimation so strongly and with such authority that anyone who disagrees is instantly labelled insane or ignorant of the "truth".

in this instance, though, it's not about having proof or not, it's about your attitude of wanting to instantly reject anything that actually could be proof. as asid before: people see what they want to see, and don't see what they don't want to.

but if you really want proof, what kind of proof would satisfy you?

and the dictionary i used was www.dictionary.com

~kakkarot

jimbola · November 04, 2003, 10:34:15

Please don't presume to tell me what I would and would not think, if I am shown proof I will certainly look at it with an open mind. Away you go then, if you can prove it i'll believe it.

Passionate-fool · November 04, 2003, 13:29:41

I have seen a man blind in one eye healed thru the power of prayer to Jesus the Son of God. Saw the gray film that covered it fall off. go ahead and explain that one away. What does it matter what we say to you? You will never listen. You say you don't have to prove a negative? But on the other hand you are "proclaiming" that God does NOT exist which in itself is saying you are POSITIVE that God is not a part of the equation. Well.......OOPS........Looks like you are not playing by your own rules. If you are so POSITIVE that God is not a part of the equation. PROVE IT. The burden of proof is on you just as well as on us. Believe what you want to believe. We do and its why we have a word called FAITH.

God bless,

PF

Nagual · November 04, 2003, 14:05:36

quote:
For the secon time I will answer your question yes, god does in my opinion only exist in the hearts and minds of the gullible.
What part of that don't you understand?

Lol, what about what part of translate in simple words don't you understand? I keep asking you if you could translate your sentence; and you keep repeating the same sentence unchanged... It won't help much. I don't know gullible.

quote:
and science is proving every day that the universe can be manipulated in many ways by humans without god being involved in any way.

Really? I am curious; how did they prove that god was not involved?

quote:
if you can prove it i'll believe it.

You come here because you know that it cannot be proven using scientific tools... It's like if I ask you to count the cosmic rays or measure the level of radioactivity using a spoon. And how do you want to prove something you cannot even describe? And what about the many so-called scientific proofs that turned out to be wrong after a few years?

There are no scientific proofs; only scientific theories. Some seems to work; others seems to work until they find out that something else was going on. All just theories. There are so many things out there that science cannot prove yet; but we still experience them. So no proofs does not mean not existing.

You're just one of these forum trolls that pops in a topic about XYZ and say "f*ck XYZ" to tinkle of people. And your not even good at it.

I wasted enough time with you. Go on with your trolling if it makes you happy... [xx(]

lostprophet · November 04, 2003, 15:24:48

OK can both sied at least accept that there is a possibility that they could be wrong.

Jimbola, do you accept that there could be a God, even if you don't think so?

Christian dudes, do you accept that there may not be a God? That there is even the slightest chance that the bible isn't true? It's fine having opinions but at least try to accept other people's.

Personally, I don't think God exists, but I could be proven wrong when I die. Until then, I'll try to lead a good life, but I probably won't take much notice of the bible. You don't need religion to be a good person.

jimbola · November 05, 2003, 01:32:34

May I now refer you all to to title of the thread which is I gather asking us our opinions, I quite legitimately gave mine. Unfortunately the small minded thought police do not accept that I am entitled to that view and have sought to discredit me. Now I accept that it is your right to hold whatever opinions that you like, just that I disagree. I disagree with the assertion that there is a god and I disagree that you believe you do not have to prove his existence.
Nagual, i'm sorry I did not realise that you actually wanted me to translate the words into another language, a gullible person would believe anything, for example the hapless victim of a poor conman would be gullible.
Why would anyone try to measure gamma rays with a spoon? they would not, it has never happened, you cannot compare silk with sandpaper. The blind eye crust thing-is it not conceivable that your willingness to believe let you be tricked into beleiving something that just never happened, have you ever heard of charlatans?
I am not trying to tinkle anyone off, you are clearly doing that to yourslves.

Nagual · November 05, 2003, 06:22:42

I agree with lostprophet [|)]
Again, I am agnostic: I think there is no way to know.

And I took the stupid spoon example to say that the tools we have are not adapted to prove/disprove that god exists... You ask for proofs of god's existance while knowing that there is no way to do it... Especialy when we don't know/imagine what god is. It's a bit like trying to describe what salty or sweet tastes like. You just can't describe it; you can just give it a name...

The only thing that could be said, from logic, is that something created all this... That's all.

Giving your opinion is fine. Calling people gulible and sitting there asking for proofs is not. And your website showed that you were biased from the begining.

jimbola · November 05, 2003, 07:54:50

Nagual, ultimately I do agree with what you have said, your last comments cannot be disputed. I choose not to believe in god because as far as I can see there is no evidence to support such a theory, I will only ask for proof of gods existence if as has happened I am poo-pooed and told that I must disprove the existence of god. The fact is that there are many things which cannot be proved conclusively and I may or may not accept them as a reality. A "god" in the traditional sense is to me a far fetched notion and for this reason I reject it.
The website that you have viewed on my profile is not owned by me, it is just comedy, I will change it.
I have not sought to offend anyone here, but merely challenge the beliefs that on this website are treated as fact, balance is essential but I accept that I have adopted a heavy handed approach, what mystifies me is just how offended some people have become that I dared to disagree with them that god is a reality.

kakkarot · November 05, 2003, 16:39:11

well alright then. to answer lau_lauz in the most complete manner i can, i have met God on one occassion, so that is proof of His existance.

is that good enough proof for you too jimbola? or would you instead just believe that i'm gullible?

~kakkarot

lostprophet · November 05, 2003, 16:43:06

The most mystical experience I ever had was a shooting pain in my leg as I was walking to where I broke my arm. I've never met God, but I'm sure he's a nice guy if he exists.

jimbola · November 06, 2003, 01:30:30

Well I thought you had wasted enough time already but since you insist then no, your claim to have met god is not good enough proof for me, frankly I do not believe you, have you got video evidence or something?

Nagual · November 06, 2003, 02:24:31

Now, I would agree with jimbola... [|)]

Kakkarot, the fact that you (think you) met god might not be enough to prove its existence to you and others. The problem is, as I said earlier, there are no proofs; only theories. I don't deny the fact that you experienced something; but the problem is the interpretation of this something. Maybe you really met with god; or maybe you saw something that you took for what you consider being the representation of god.

A silly example I use often: People used to see the sun go around in the sky; so they used to think that the sun was, like the moon, rotating around the earth... They experienced it but interpreted it in a wrong way. Some people believe that when you take a picture of themselves, you are stealing their souls... Etc...

So, to answer lau_lauz in the most "honest" (no offense) manner i can, try to find out by yourself for yourself, without any preconcieved ideas; knowing that maybe there is no way to know.

Keep your mind and your eyes open.

kakkarot · November 06, 2003, 10:48:40

and so i'm proven right: if you'll sweep that kind of proof under the rug, what kind of proof could possibly satisfy you?

a video? hah, even if i actually had a camera and got God on tape you'd just say that it was video editing. would you even believe in God if HE Himself showed Himself to you, or would you say it's merely a hallucination?

i met God, there is no question about it (to me). however, as i've said before (in another thread) personal experiences can't really be shared after it's happened because others can just come up with excuses as to why not to believe.

but no worries, i've heard many people make up excuses for why they don't want to believe things other than what they already believe. i've heard it from both christians and non-christians when each was presented with strong arguments against their beliefs. for instance, the bible is NOT "perfect" and yet most christians will believe to their death bed that it is, regardless of any proof shown to them. many aethiests disbelieve in God not because of any actual proof to show that God doesn't exist or lack of proof to show He does, but because that's what they've chosen to believe and no proof whatsoever will change their beliefs.

because, that's the thing about proof: a person can still decide to ignore it in favour of their own silly little opinions.

~kakkarot

lostprophet · November 06, 2003, 14:42:23

Dude don't stress. We all have the right to our opinions. I don't believe in God, and I probably won't until I am proven wrong. You have to admit that you saying you saw something you believed to be God doesn't consistute proof by a long shot. Maybe you could describe, how, when, where and under what circumstances this meeting came about?

jimbola · November 07, 2003, 07:53:56

Unfortunately your assertion that you have met god is NOT proof, it's just your word, so I have every right to discount it as part of my silly little opinion.

skymageinfinity · November 07, 2003, 08:06:39

Oh lau_lauz this question is so easy. Why do you have to ask everyone when you already know the answer?

Your answer is simple, let me tell you what you already know.

YES GOD DOES EXIST

And dont let any non believer tell you otherwise!! Understand?

jimbola · November 07, 2003, 08:16:26

So how do you intend to back up that statement?
I suppose another interesting question is how would you define god?

Nagual · November 08, 2003, 03:19:38

quote:
let me tell you what you already know.

Hum... I love that! [

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kakkarot · November 08, 2003, 10:54:51

alright then jimbola: prove that flowers exist.

~kakkarot

Adrian · November 08, 2003, 14:05:41

Greetings everyone,

In order to answer the question "does God exist", it is necessary to first define "God".

If referring to "God the deity" of the for example Christian religion, the benevolent, tyranannical, vengeful, capricious God who sits on a golden throne in high places, flanked by Archangels while delivering judgements on mankind; then no, that God does not exist.

If we are referring to "God the Universe", everything that is, "The All", the God who is an aspect of every one of us and everything else in existence, and we an inseperable aspect of Him/Her, the God who is perfection and Who's Universe is governed by immutable laws which apply to everything and everyone without exception, the God who does not require to be flattered, worshipped or offered to, or requires "intermediaries" to deliver His/Her will - then yes, God most certainly does exist.

And yes, of course Jesus was a Son of God, just as every single one of us are equally Sons and Daughters of God, made in the true image of God. The "true image of God" refers to Spirit, not the human form as many suppose.

With best regards,

Adrian.

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HELP ME PLEASE.....DOES GOD/JESUS REALLY EXIST????