Holy War

[Nerezza]

I believe that American policy and their friendship with Israel have more to do with any sort of "Holy War", than America being a Christian country.

Religion is a useful tool to rally the masses into a frenzy in order to achieve a goal. The Crusades are an example of that.

[Narrow Path]

So you think that the "God" that is supposed to be behind it is just an illusion or made up phenomenon?

[Nerezza]

God is not an illusion, nor a mere phenomenon.

What I am saying is this:

Radical Islam is very unforgiving when it comes to democracy, therefore its leaders would want to do everything possible to stop it's spread. By rallying the people(a people who love their God immensely) to defend their faith(and God), fundamental muslim states are able to have people who hate America and everything it stands for, all because it had been told for years that they(America) are out to prevent Islam from spreading and instead keen on instituting Christian democracy.

I am a Catholic and as such, it is very hard to overlook or rationalize the church's crimes against it's own followers. I have learned that the word of God can be used to do two things:

1)Accomplish the goal of God
or
2) Accomplish the goal of man

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has 'closed', the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. AND I AM CAESAR." --Julius Caesar

The same spirit(perhaps more so) can be felt with religion.

[James S]

When all of the recent terrorist business ramped up and people here were starting to get quite anti-muslim, the head of the islamic church here in Melbourne came forward and had something quite interesting to say. It seems that the term "Jihad" is not at all scriptural in accordance with the Qaran. It is a term of human origin, and does not come from God.

To the true islamic faith, God as the Qaran describe him detests killing as much as God as described in the Bible. The islamic leaders in no way condone these extremist actions. It is NOT part of the islamic way of life which in its essence should serve to promote peace and tolerance just as the christian faith is supposed to.

Spare a moment though to think about the Crusades of the middle ages, and how many innocent people were slaughtered by the hand of devout christian knights under the supposed direction of God.

If anyone at all kills in the name of God, no matter whether it is the God of the christians or the God of the muslims, it is only ever man's pathetic claim that it is the "will of God" that justifies their actions. Jihads, crusades, whatever term you would use for a Holy War, is the will of men, NOT the will of God.

Having spoken to a muslim collegue at a place that I used to work, people of the true islamic faith dont hate anyone. They love all of mankind as is the will of God. If you take the time to speak to a muslim who is true to the islamic ways you will find there to be very little difference between the core of their beliefs and the core of the christian beliefs.

Also remember that even these extremists (with the exception of the truly psychotic ones) don't hate America, they hate the American government. When you live outside of the USA, its not that difficult to see why they feel this way. You've a leader who's a few neurons shy of being a megolomaniac!

Kind regards,
James.

[Narrow Path]

quote: am a Catholic and as such, it is very hard to overlook or rationalize the church's crimes against it's own followers. I have learned that the word of God can be used to do two things:

1)Accomplish the goal of God
or
2) Accomplish the goal of man

I see your point here but I must disagree. I think that all things that are done are done to better accoplish God's goal. Even if it may seem to be the will of man it is man being decieved into thinking he has any power over God's Will whatsoever.

Prophecy is prophecy and what will come to pass will come to pass.

[Nerezza]

Since you believe that, Im interested in what you think of predestanation. This is not a ploy, Im just interested in other Christians thoughts on the subject.

[LA FORET MAUVE]

bah, christians did the crusades...a sort of jihad !
I think it's not a good thing to symplify all, this "terrorist war" is more complicate than it seems. If you start thinking "ht good against the evil" and "God is on our side" like seems to think your Bush, it's going to be biggest international demonstration of human stupidity ever made in our history [B)]

[DjM]

Islam is not the enemy; Christianity is not the enemy; religion is not the enemy; a race of people is not the enemy.  IGNORACE IS THE ENEMY!

To assume understanding based on mere sentiments is one's own folly.  The conversation might as well switch to favorite foods and/or favorite movies, etc...

Narrow Path's question is valid.  The answer can only be gotten by understanding where mankind is on its evolutionary path.  This matter cannot be trivialized and must appear before the intellect and the spiritual organs.

Applying a materialistic view of history and adding one's sentiments will simply produce ignorance.  It's like studying the world of effects with no knowledege of the world of causes.

Once one comes to the correct understanding of what human evolution is all about (i.e. where we started; where we are; where we are headed), everything makes perfect sense- everything!

[DjM]

quote:Originally posted by James S

If anyone at all kills in the name of God, no matter whether it is the God of the christians or the God of the muslims, it is only ever man's pathetic claim that it is the "will of God" that justifies their actions. Jihads, crusades, whatever term you would use for a Holy War, is the will of men, NOT the will of God.

This has ALWAYS been the TRUTH.  There is no religion greater than truth.

[Narrow Path]

[edited by moderator]

[Narrow Path]

quote:Since you believe that, Im interested in what you think of predestanation. This is not a ploy, Im just interested in other Christians thoughts on the subject.

This is a hard question. Can predestination and free will actually both be true?

I believe so.

I think that God knows exactly what is going to happen but it is still our choice that makes it so. It is predestined in that the knowledge of our actions is in God's mind but that does not mean we dont CHOOSE it to happen as it partains to our own Salvation.

Put Christ and His Will above your own and a lot of the veil or ignorance is lifted.

[Soulfire]

quote:Originally posted by Narrow Path

I see your point here but I must disagree. I think that all things that are done are done to better accoplish God's goal. Even if it may seem to be the will of man it is man being decieved into thinking he has any power over God's Will whatsoever.

I agree that God uses all things to ultimately bring about the greatest possible good.  I also believe however that God allows us the freedom to choose from an infinite number of paths in attaining that.  You can choose to fear and hate, and thereby cause suffering for yourself and others until you have suffered enough to finally figure out that only giving love unconditionally will ever truly fulfill you.  Or you can choose to figure that out with less pain by just deciding and taking loving action in each possible moment whenever you are finally ready.  God has eternity to wait for you to finally figure it out.

As others have said, "Holy war" is an oxymoron (contradiction in terms) coined by man to justify and incite hatred to further the agendas of the selfish and/or deluded people calling for such a war.  God will find a way to constructively use the suffering created by such an atrocity just like he would find a way to give meaning to a child being brutally raped and murdered.  Understand however that it was man's choice to take these paths of suffering - not God's.  It was not necessary except as much as the people involved chose to make it necessary.  God always offers us a "better" way, but it's our choice which way we choose to go.

Note that nobody can force you to do anything.  They can try to coerce you in many ways, but it is always still your choice.  Everybody around you might decide to go to war, but you can refuse to fight and choose instead to find some way of helping people.  Your life situation might be touched or even surrounded by war, you might suffer some of the pain inflicted by that war, but you only become "part of it" if you choose to...

--Soulfire

[Nerezza]

This is a hard question. Can predestination and free will actually both be true?

I believe so.

I think that God knows exactly what is going to happen but it is still our choice that makes it so. It is predestined in that the knowledge of our actions is in God's mind but that does not mean we dont CHOOSE it to happen as it partains to our own Salvation.

Wow, that's the most succinct way of putting it that I've ever heard. I'm impressed. I agree with you too.

[Mohamed]

quote:Originally posted by Narrow Path

Radical Islam has declared war on the U.S.

It is called a Holy War. Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much? If it is a "Holy War" than I am taking a leap of faith and assuming that it is because this is a Christian country?

Narrow Path,

I am a Muslim and would like to say that when I hear these people call for a Holy War, I just laugh, and so does my father.  A Jihad can not be called for unless Islam it self is threatened.  Since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world (and yes including the USA, the conversion rates of American's to Islam doubled after sept 11) I can not see how it is in any way threatened.

Quote from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/islam.htm

"Estimates of the total number of Muslims range from 0.7 to 1.2 billion worldwide and 1.1 to 7 million in the U.S. About 21% of all people on earth follow Islam. The religion is currently in a period of rapid growth.

Christianity is currently the largest religion in the world. It is followed by about 33% of all people -- a percentage that has remained stable for decades. If current trends continue, Islam will become the most popular world religion sometime in the mid-21st century."

Also, your statement, "Are there any Muslims here that care to convey why they hate America so much?" offends me very much.  I am an American and I love this country!

You sure took one hell of a leap of faith in assuming that Muslims want war against America because it is a Christian country.  Such thoughts are bad for your karma....

[Beth]

Mohamed--

Not to split hairs here, but the last figures I saw had Buddhism as the top ranking religion in the world (per the numbers) with Islam coming in second, followed by Christianity (at 21%.)

But this was a few years ago, so I will check out that site that you reference!  Thanks![]

[Narrow Path]

quote:Wow, that's the most succinct way of putting it that I've ever heard. I'm impressed. I agree with you too.

Thank you,

If it is not too much trouble.....

What denomination are you.

I enjoy wour posts and replies.[]

Stay strong in the faith.

[Narrow Path]

quote:You sure took one hell of a leap of faith in assuming that Muslims want war against America because it is a Christian country. Such thoughts are bad for your karma....

Muslim's dont prescribed to the doctrine of Karma.

Fundamentalist Islam believers consider us infidels and have declared Holy War on us. It is very cut and dry.

[Soulfire]

quote:Originally posted by Narrow Path

Fundamentalist Islam believers consider us infidels and have declared Holy War on us. It is very cut and dry.

The "mistake" here is believing that what you call "Fundamental Islam" has anything in common with true Islam.  

Consider some murdering psychopath who thinks he is killing prostitutes and "sinners" because it is "God's will".   These types of people commonly quote the Bible to "justify" their actions.  Most of them even call and think of theselves as "True Chrstians".  What you are doing and saying is just like proclaiming that the above types of misguided people accurately reflect true Christianity.

At least the way you talk gives the strong impression that this is what you believe, but maybe I am misunderstanding you.

--Soulfire

[Gandalf]

Three main points here.

1) Some characters here seem to have a problem understanding the difference between muslims and islmac fundamentalists. The fundamentalists are the fanatical minority. This is not purely an islamic trait. Those from the United States should be well aware of the christian fundamentalist streak, esp the bible belt area.
However, this is not representative of modern christianity as a whole, just as islamic fundamentalism is not characteristic of muslims as a whole. Everyone, especially in the media, should learn to UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE.

2) People here band about the term 'holy war', 'crusade' and 'Jihad' as if they they are all identical terms. They are not.

'Jihad' actually transaltes as 'struggle' and is only called when islam is threatened. Also Jihad can only be called upon to reclaim territory that belonged to muslims but has been taken by outsiders.
This is quite different from the concept of 'crusade', a purely christian concept, which is defined as campagn to conquer NEW territory on behalf of god esp the Holy Land.
This type of holy war was formulated by the Pope in the early medieval period. As you can see, during the crusader period, jihad was invoked to help reclaim land taken by the crusaders.

3)Finally, while not a Muslim myself, I have great respect for mainstream Islam. It is in fact a far more tolerant religion than Christianity. The prophet states that those of other faiths can continue worship in muslim lands. Therefor, In Muslim countries many christian churches survive intact. If you visit Greece, which was under Turkish occupation for many years you can see many fine byzantine churches which the muslims left intact, although some they converted to mosques of course.
This creed of acceptance of other religions is a central part of mainstream islam but is quite at odds with even mainstream christianity which is undergoing somewhat of a crisis at present as intolerance is such an inbuilt characteristic of the religion.

Regards,
Douglas

[Mohamed]

Thank you Soulfire and Gandalf, I could not have put it any better.

Narrow Path, If Fundamentalist Islam believers consider us infidels and have declared a Holy War on us, does that mean they are attacking Christianity?  Since I am an American, I am as much of an enemy to them as you are.  Does this mean it is a war against Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and all other religions that are found in the USA?  I think not!  Maybe, just maybe, it could be a war against the USA (For those who don't understand, I am being sarcastic, it is against the USA not against any religion).

Beth,

I posted this same information on a different religious debate forum and got the same answer as you gave me.  Perhaps that site is out dated or maybe even biased?

[Beth]

Mohamed,

Anytime "numbers" are offered by an organization, they will most often be offered with bias, and in this case I couldn't help but notice that the site "About" that you referenced, had "pop-ups for Christ."  But their statement that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world is probably the truest part.  

[Gandalf]

Beth_
The religious tolerance site is in fact an excellent site. I found this a while ago and forwarded the address to Adrian for posting on the forum.
The Canadian based site is in fact a completely unbiased database with info on all established religions and spiritual paths, from christinaity and Islam to Wicca and Neo-paganism.

The information there is generally high quality. However, as the researchers for the site have stated, they rely for much income on advertising and they have a fairly liberal policy on what gets advertised, eg your 'jesus' pop up!. Often you get adverts for new age products as well.
However, these are nothing to do with the site itself which is well worth a look!

IMO The sections on Neopagansism and Occultism should be required reading for christian right groups who like to talk about these fields as 'evil'.

Regards,
Douglas

[Beth]

Gandalf,

I honestly have not have time to take a very close look at this particular site.  (I have really busy on this board the last few days!)  If it is as good as you recommend, however, then I am most definately looking forward to it!

The global numbers that Mohamed found there, however,  were just so very different from the ones that I was familiar with, that I could not let them personally inform me.

"Numbers studies" (SA) are very tricky, and biases definately do exist.  This is not, by the way, exclusive to religion.  It extends to environmental issues, political bases, oh gosh...to just about everything actually.  

Thanks for correcting me about the website.  I will take a look at it!

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

The words 'holy war' form a total oxymoron, in that 'holy' and 'war' are total opposites in meaning that cancel each other out. Its like saying 'good bad' which is meaningless.

*To preface the below:  The below terms were explained to me by a Muslim as an informal explanation of what these terms mean. As someone has rightly pointed out in this thread, the dictionary definition (Islam = submission) is quite different from what I have said. But I like to think my Muslim friend's explanation is true of the majority of Muslims, as by large I find them to be very peaceful and friendly people. So, you can say that the below is my personal interpretation of these words, etc. RB.


The word Islam means 'the way of peace'.

To be a Muslim is, therefore, to be 'a man/woman of peace'.

The word Jihad is also greatly misunderstood. It does not mean 'holy war' at all. It means 'the great struggle'. This term is often applied by Muslims to the 'great inner struggle' of conquering the ego and purifying the inner self. This is something that all devout religious people struggle to do worldwide:  to conquere the 'self', regardless of the religion belonged to, although various terms are obviously used by other religions to express this.

The use of the word 'Jihad' today by fanatics is bending its true meaning completely out of shape.

The fundamentalist issues discussed earlier are very true, in that you have a very small minority of fantatics who's actions cause extremely visible problems. But their actions cannot be applied to the great majority of Muslims, just as the actions of fanatical Christians cannot be applied to the majority of Christians. For example, take a Muslim terrorist who plants a bomb, or a Christian terrorist who murders a doctor at an abortion clinic.  Neither of these provides a typical representation of their respective religions.

You will find that the fanatical streak of Islam exists mainly in the arab and african countries. Muslims in other countries are far more moderate.


Take care, Robert.

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Robert Bruce


The word Islam means 'the way of peace'.

Robert, with all due respect, I am taking an Islamic Texts course for my Religious Studies degree and I assure you that the word Islam does not mean "way of peace".

the word Islam in fact means "submission". So I don't know where your getting your information from but I am getting mine from a college professor who is indeed a devout Muslim.

Xander