How many of you think the occult is evil?

[Gandalf]

Greatoutdoors:

Here is a link to once such Tarot gaming site that has information on the various tarot game rules, some of which are original and others which are more modern rules. Its also interesting to note that the original game rules for tarot vary slightly from country to country; In Spain, where tarot card games originated in the 14/15th century, the rules differ slightly from Italy where the game 'spread' to (pardon the pun) later.

http://www.pagat.com/tarot/index.html

Douglas

[Fortier Du Lune]

Although I differ in belief towards the fact as to what influences divining or however I can word it, I believe I strayed from the initial debate. Therefore, I believe I will state my opinion on the original subject now: No, I do not believe that the occult is evil. It is simply a typical aspect of many peoples' lives. And I don't recall knowing mych of what has been posted on these boards, but even before I'd read the others' arguments I agreed that it isn't the tool that's evil, 'tis the user (to take words from someone who stated that opinion and which was very well argued by someone on the first page []) All the information that I have obtained through this board has been VERY interesting to me, as I had no knowledge, for example, that tarot cards had been used for gaming!! (Thank you gandalf) and I by no means wish to influence anyone and I'm sorry if I was a bit of a pain in the @$$ []
Jess

[greatoutdoors]

Fortier Du Lune,
No problem, and I'm sorry if I sounded a bit "preachy". It's just that this forum is such a good opportunity to share and learn, if only we don't get mired in personality/ego issues. And believe me, I have to say that goes for me, too![B)] I'm new at this stuff too -- maybe together we can all be both teachers and students! []

Gandalf,
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.[]

[Fortier Du Lune]

Learning is great...
learning is fun
but even more fun
with EVERYONE

okay sorry I'm being stupid... I'm just really bored.... eep... next person who sees this post needs to IM me hahahahahahaha....[]

[False Prophet]

The occult is evil.

It opens up the doors to the minds and wills of demons.

However,

Some beleive good to be the stronger force within the body of God which will be to their dismay when the gates of hell are unleashed from the lower astral to distroy the imperfection of all men and the undecided flakes of humanity.

Choose wisely.

[Fortier Du Lune]

I'm sorry falseprophet, but no matter how many times i read that, i odn't understand a word of it. is there a way you could put it in more basic terms for those of us (ME) who are less knowledgeable towards the opinion you're trying to convey?

[Robert Bruce]

G'day folks!

The original premise = "The Occult is Evil"

One cannot have this both ways....

Occult = hidden knowledge, esoteric knowledge, paranormal knowledge and experience, or supernatural knowledge and experience, eg, anything outside or above and beyond normal physical life and normal physical senses.

In the way this term was used to start this thread, it was stated that everything occult, paranormal or supernatural is evil.

Therefore, this same statement also says that angels and the holy spirit are evil, because these are about as paranormal as it gets.

Healing, speaking in tongues, exorcism, even prayer, are thus also evil because these must be classed as esoteric or 'occult' practices.  

This also applies to many bible events and characters, as some obviously had occult knowledge, experience and ability, eg, walking on water, turning water into wine, materializing food, healing the sick, raising the dead, communicating with  spiritual beings, seeing visions, hearing voices, predicting the future, etc, etc, etc.

For example, if one has a vision and sees something in the future, one has had an occult/paranormal/supernatural experience and been given occult/supernatural/esoteric knowlege.

Now, I'm sure the originator of the thoughtless premise 'the occult is evil' did not have this in mind at the time. (This person is obviously religious). But you cannot have things both ways. Either the occult is all evil as per the original statement, or only some occult things are evil. Now, debating this matter would obviously lead to circular arguments, because the originator is using two sets of rules here: one stated and one unstated. So, what I am suggesting here is that this person rephrases and clarifies his/her original premise.


Food for thought...


RB.

[Lilith]

Indeed.

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by False Prophet

The occult is evil.

It opens up the doors to the minds and wills of demons.

However,

Some beleive good to be the stronger force within the body of God which will be to their dismay when the gates of hell are unleashed from the lower astral to distroy the imperfection of all men and the undecided flakes of humanity.

Choose wisely.

haha! that's just too funny. [] thanks for the laugh, false [|)]. i always loved a good "distroying" [], 'specially wit' them thar suthern folks [].

quote:RB

In the way this term was used to start this thread, it was stated that everything occult, paranormal or supernatural is evil.

actually, this thread was opened up with the question of who thinks it is evil.

quote:Hiebreed

Hey, how many of you think the occult is evil and how many actually engage in occult practices?

sorry to nitpick, but ... yeah [|)]. good points though.

~kakkarot

[Mustardseed]

I think that Robert has a very valid point. It seems that we would have to define "the occult" . For me personally, I seem to have some built in "code of ethics" maybe put there by generally accepted Christian doctrine, or maybe put there by God?.

However I must admit this "code of ethics" seem to change ever so slightly as I get to different points of my life. Things I would possibly have called occult years ago as a young christian I no longer see as evil. Now wheather that means that in time I will be talking to the pleideans, spreading tarot and worshipping satan I strongly doubt!. If we accept Roberts definition of the occult we all angage in it, however there seem to be different ways to interpret it.

I think that in "my universe" for want of a better word, any spirit guide or whatever who confesses to Jesus being the son of God having lived and died and all that, would be called a pure channel. (Just had a very interesting chat with James about his guide the spirit of nature very touching).I do believe that there is a war in the spirit and infiltrations occur. It seems the dark side is always trying to take the credit for things and claiming to be the creator of various practices. Another point is the whole deal of esoteric hidden knowledge. I am not sure how this works but if there is knowledge hidden by a group of people, and various stages can be accessed through various steps then that would also to me constitute the dark side being involved. I am here thinking about levels of free masons , scientologists , covens (maybe) and that sort of thing. If it is there it should be there for all and at all time. Freely shared and never hoarded or used for personal gain. I am here not thinking about Robert writing a book, that seems fair and quite straight, but a lot of the New Age and Occult involves exchange of large amounts of money for readings etc. This goes for the Christians as well. The whole teleevangelist, send me your money, is just as off as the catolics back in the dark ages selling salvation.

This is all written as a first shot , just thoughts and not meant to be a thought out philosofical statement.

Regards Mustardseed

[Adrian]

Greetings Mustardseed,

You make an excellent point whether you realised it or not.

The only reason "occult" or "esoteric" subjects exist, is because, rather than being general knowledge, i.e. available to all, they have been forced undergound by centuries of persecution, mostly by the churches.

Most knowledge and abilities which are considered "occult" therefore might well be considered "evil" by the various religions who oppose all mystical, Spiritual and Magical areas, but in terms of the grand scheme of things they should be neither occult or evil, but rather the rightful inheritance and abilities of all mankind.

There are some rather notable anomalies however. I am sure most people would agree that channeling might be regarded as occult, and yet a senior person at the vatican recently stated in the vatican's own publication that the modern catechism allows people to communicate with "dearly departed relatives" who now reside in an "ultra-terrestrial dimension". The dimension of course is the Astral in all but name.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Beth]

Hey all!

quote:The only reason "occult" or "esoteric" subjects exist, is because, rather than being general knowledge, i.e. available to all, they have been forced undergound by centuries of persecution, mostly by the churches.

 This is the only reason that I can come up with as to why the interpretive method for scripture that I have been presenting and discussing these many weeks was for all intents and purposes "lost."  

I have traced this interpretive method back as far as the 300's b.c.e through about the 4th century c.e., it then disappears.  I found it again with the early Kabbalists, 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries, but beyond that the evidence is very scanty.  After this time, it just seemingly disappeared, unless it was written about in another foreign language and is archieved away in a library or museum somewhere.  

What I do know is this:  This interpretive method was used by early Hellenistic Jewish scholars/mystics and a great many of the earliest Christians. So--this interpretive method is "esoteric" in that it "WAS" intentionally kept hidden for so many centuries--and then it became hidden in another way, through the Church assuring that it totally disappeared from the scene.

So--yes--during the ancient and medieval periods, a lot of knowledge became "esoteric" and/or "occult" by necessity.  Mystical groups were formed that were forced to meet in secrecy to avoid not only servere persecusions by the Church--but death was usually a very good possibility as well.

I would like to point out one more thing:  Galileo was one such "heretic" that was imprisoned for most of his life.  He continued to write about his astronomical discoveries and ideas, but these had to be written and transmitted under a very protective secret cover.  During those days--the fact that the earth WAS NOT at the center of the universe was considered "occult" knowledge and was most definately "esoteric."

Peace,
Beth  

p.s.

quote:Another point is the whole deal of esoteric hidden knowledge. I am not sure how this works but if there is knowledge hidden by a group of people...it should be there for all and at all time. Freely shared and never hoarded or used for personal gain.

 I find this a very interesting comment.  My research is one such branch of "esoteric knowledge" and yet--it is right here for all to see and read, and to even explore for themselves--but if you will notice how it has been received by "some people", e.g., from strong disagreement to accusations of its "evil."  If it were a different time period now--I would have probably already been layed upon the racks or burned at the stake for sharing this knowledge.  And yet--sharing it I am.  I am not "forming an esoteric group" to keep it from the public, and while I am in the process of writing a book about it, I have yet to make a dime off of it, and further--my education has cost me a great deal of money.  So in essence, I have personally gone into debt to make this knowledge available for everyone.  

So--be careful how you moan and groan about knowledge being withheld from you--for even as it is being made available to you now -- you do not like what you are finding.

[Tab]

Esoteric wisdom is esoteric by nature, it simply cannot be any other way. You can't express to a mass public the concepts that one must grasp to become adept in an esoteric tradition. Only through genuine truth seeking and contemplation (and it's purer state, meditation) can these truths be obtained. Thus, only the true-spirited can obtain it. It's a built-in padlock.

Of course, when you do express esoteric concepts to a population, you get exoteric ideas that become inherently corrupt and misunderstood. That may well be the source of all mass religion and religious corruption (anthropomorphism, inconsistancy, contradiction, nonsense, blind faith).

[Beth]

Tab,

I agree in once sense of the word.  Like most everything else we experience in this world, there are at least two different manifestations:  as above--so below.

There is knowledge that we currently possess, that was considered "esoteric" in ancient days, e.g., much of what we all study in philosophy and theology classes was during the ancient period with held from the masses and studied only by the educated elite.  Today things are much different--most all of us are "educated elite" by ancient standards, so therefore we do have the capacity to understand "ancient esoteric" knowledge.

Now, with that said, there is MOST definately "esoteric knowledge and wisdom" that is highly subjective and experienced individually.  What my experience of the divine has been, you or others may or may not understand.  It is ultimately up to me to sift through and discern what is worthy of seeking further and what is not.  This is between me and the divine.  Yes--if I were to start a "church of Beth" and try to "teach my experience" it would most certainly led to absolute disaster.  I cannot "teach" my subjective experience to anyone else as a means or a model for any one else's experience.  And yes--I think that is in great part what happened with Christianity--the subjective experiences of a few people became concretized into the "absolute truth for everyone."  

But refuting anyone elses experiences, or trying to make the claim "my experience is the only TRUE experience" are not the only choices.  I certainly think we can all "compare notes" and find similiarities, associations and correlations that will help to support us all as we seek the divine.

More later! []

Peace,
Beth

[Mustardseed]

Qoute:

So--be careful how you moan and groan about knowledge being withheld from you--for even as it is being made available to you now -- you do not like what you are finding.

I think moaning and groaning maybe too.........expressive if you are trying to discribe me that is. I was merely trying to define Occult, or at least give some signs of what I would term occult practices. One of them is a system where people who adhere to a certain belief are allowed to progress to more inside knowledge only as it is seen fit my the ones allready there. I have read (I dont accept it as truth till I know ) that the masons have officially 30 levels but further levels exist. Like covens where you have to have an initiation and maybe some gradual "being allowed "more and more knowledge. If you felt I was moaning and groaning let me correct my statement.

On your other point I would agree with you that new thinking is not too popular in places like tha vatican and Christian mainstream, obviously a attempt to remain in control. However many splinter groups have emerged from this supression and have succesfully established themselves through new doctrines, only themselves to become the new supressors. This seem to be a human factor. Any new system of beliefs that forms seem to quickly solidify and turn hard and brittle unless it is kept mouldable and mallable but constant infusion of the Spirit for want of a better word. The moment anyone of us loose that spirit of searching and asking and the moment we see ourselves "having arrived" and believe that we have found "the key" or the "answer" or "the enlightenment" it seems our universe schrinks and like a piece of vaccumpacked meat we have lost our smell, our texture life blood and all sign of life, and become just another piece of meat on the shelf. This can happen very fast indeed, and does not have to take centuries or years. All that is nessesari is that we shift our ? to !
All that said. Just becourse a doctrine emerges as NEW does not make it the TRUTH. It seems that these days, becourse of the horrible oppressive and spiritually empovrished way the Churches act, people embrace any doctrine that shows just a little bit of spirituality. It is as if like a teen in rebellion people will run with any bad boy they can find as long as it takes them away from Church. I can certainly relate to that. However there is also such a thing as FALSE teaching and lies and deciet, people who abuse etc. (this is not talking about you Beth, your research sounds right on). Robert talked about wizzards using their aprentices to cast spells to avoid the neg results, and I am sure this attitude is rampant in new age circles as well as Churches.
Regards Mustardseed

PS If you ever was to make the Church of BETH, I would love to come hear you preach one day.  
[]

[Beth]

Mustardseed,

Since you are being nice to me again, I will respond[] (That's really all I ask--be nice--even in disagreement!)

I really don't know much at all about masonry or covens.  But I do know that I consider my own accumulation of knowledge to be on a basis of "earned levels of knowledge."  The Hebrew Bible and NT, as well as other ancient Jewish midrash speaks often of esoteric knowledge being given by Shekinah or the Holy Spirit, or formally taught in esoteric schools, "in proportion to a person's capacity to understand."  I admit from personal experience that a great deal of information has crossed my path in the past that I did not comprehend until much later.  I assume that at that time--I did not have the capacity to understand it.  Later however, I would gain that capacity. There are also the frequent biblical references to "having the ears to hear and the eyes to see."  I think this too pertains to a person's ability to understand certain things.  Much like--when the student is ready the teacher will appear--or perhaps--when the student is ready the knowledge will become clear.  Perhaps the masons, etc., "model" their awarding of different levels of esoteric knowledge by these same standards.

I live my life as though the guiding force of my own "meritorious achievements of understanding" is the Holy Spirit.  I also know what when I am "not so smart" and do stupid things that it is the same Holy Spirit that more often than not "chastises me."  There is still so much that I do not understand, and God willing, I will continue to develop my capacity to understand more and more.

As to the Church of Beth--Please GOD NO![:O]  My research and all that I speak of actually raises a lot more questions than it actually provides solid answers, e.g., after the names are translated and the stories allegorized, what then?  What do the hidden layers of meaning have to say--and how many different ways can they be interpreted?  I am a long way from being able to answer these questions, but, I suspect that these answers too will lead to even more questions.  But for the record--my name in Hebrew does mean "house" and is translated for example as the "House of God" in the proper place name "Bethel"<tee-hee>--but on an actual personal note, my full name "Elizabeth" means "oath to God" and I pray that my actions will, more often than not, always reflect this Hebrew meaning of my name.

Peace,
Beth

p.s. I really hope Mustardseed that our dialogue stays "nice and friendly."

[DreamWeaver]

In my opinion I am fasinated in the occult,but I myself am only intrested in reading about it and talking to others about it..
I do how ever read tarot cards(well I am learning),I don't think that is evil..
But as far as magick spells and things ogf that nature if someone has a good heart(it will be used for good) if they have a black heart(it of course will be used for evil means)
To me it depends on the person who is using their powers,spells..etc..

[Gandalf]

I agree with most of the above posts.

The old 'is the occult evil' question is flawed since we need to define what 'occult' means.
As said, 'occult' means 'secret or hidden knowledge'.

However, it is a sad fact that most people don't actually know this, esp. as the name has been blackened by church propoganda so that occultism = 'satanism'.

A foolish interpretation but one that is widespread in the media and tv shows etc.

Actually, I would not equate satanism as being occult as there is no 'secret knowledge' being imparted. In fact satanic philosophy, if you go to LeVay's 'church of satan' website for example, is quite straightforward and is not quite what it is made out to be by the church.

For example, satanists view the christian image of 'satan' as a metaphor or symbol for individulism, which is their highest ideal, and by venerating images of satan you are reinforcing this metaphor in your own life.
The philosphy can be summed up as 'no one is going to look after you but yourself', 'look after number one' etc.
In fact satanist philosophy is just promoting modern *unrestrained* capitalist ideals, the only difference is that it celebrates individulism and personal gain and doesnt try to deny this reality in any way.

If you actually talk to any satanists you will be hard pressed to find any that *actually believe* in a horned devil figure who sits in hell with a trident; they view him as a metaphorical concept of a human ideal.

For the record, I am not a satanist and i do not support their views or those of *unrestrained* capitalist society, which satanism represents, but at least I did go and educate myself as to what satanists are about and I understand where they are coming from.

But no, there is nothing esoteric or 'hidden' about their philosophy, so satanism is not 'occult'.

Douglas

[overfien]

The occult studies is not negative. It is what the individual partakes in that makes it positive or negative.  For examp. aleister crowley purely evil teachings compared to let say HP Blavatsky, count st. germain etc..  Where you'll see one feed the ego full of pride/lust and do rituals to strengthen them or the exact opposite.   The easiest way to verify how far on the path they made it is to call upon them in the astral "to directly verify".  IF they come and have there solar bodies developed then they were good.  "in the sence of good and evil" which is purely objective.  Just one was doing what they were suppose to be doing the other falls back on to the wheel.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by Gandalf



... we need to define what 'occult' means.

We also need to define what evil means as I am finding this concept difficult to grasp. It seems rather relative.

[Hand of Ganesha]

Evil is ignorance of the truth.

[Aileron]

I dont know if it would, in my opinion, be ignorance of the truth, so much as acting in ignorance of truth.

Of course, evil is so many different things to different people.


Perhaps evil is just associated madness.

Or inevitable necessity

or perhaps it is only pointless violence

or perhaps it is unthoughtful actions towards one another

or perhaps it is the weeds that we kill in the garden

or the unconcious need to control overpopulation by murder, abortion, suicide, drug use, religious preference, sterilization, political control, masochism and sadism, and/or "civilized society."

or perhaps it is the republicans

or perhaps it is the democrats

or perhaps it is democracy itself

or money....is it money?

Is it greed?

Is it definable by human comprehension? Should we even try?

[Gandalf]

Somebody just posted that Aleister Crowely was 'evil'... this is crap. He was a genius, it helps if you actually try to get where he is coming from; yes he promoted individulism, just as modern capitalist society does, but I don't think that it comes from 'satan'! It is also the case that he had a warped sense of humour and liked to enrage christians by coming out with provocative statements (which is fine by me!).

He is probably the single most influential and important magickal/occult practitioner and theorist of the 20th century.

However he didnt suffer fools gladly and that included conservative christians.

Asked about the consequences of manipulating huge amounts of power/energy around the place, he responded by stating that
'by the time a magician has amassed enough knowledge to be dangerous in any way, he will then be too wise to ever dare use it.'

That is not someone who is 'evil'.

Douglas

[Hiebreed]

Hey, how many of you think the occult is evil and how many actually engage in occult practices?

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I think it is humorous that some Christians are more concerned with terminology than substance.