Hell and Mormonism(The reason that i am agnostic)

[Aileron]

[]
good for you. It is right that you question so much.
I know how you feel, though from a different viewpoint.

I lived in utah for over ten years, so needless to say, I had enough mormon experience to last the rest of my life.
I personally am not mormon, nor are any of my family (wipes brow), but of course I have many friends and have wandered into the temple area often in order for the missionaries to stop and converse with me so that I could question them and hopefully lead them to questioning themselves as well.
It is a pretty area though. I have walked around back to where the circular pool is and sat down and sketched the temple as the sun fell below it. I must say this for the LDS, they have great architectual ingenuity.

Hell, there are many percieved notions of this topic. We could be discussing such a thing for years and still not get anywhere.
My own belief is still being built as well, so I have no real belief in it nor heaven, but I do have many notions and ideas.
The LDS hell is similar to the zealot christian hell in that if you dont do what the church tells you, off onto satans lap you go.
The FLDS, or fundamentalist mormons, are frightening, in that if one does not live by the book word by word, those FLDS will send them there! I have had personal experiences with these people, and I tell you there is nothing good or heavenly about them.
I dont bash any religion, but any group of people who gather arms and weapons, forbid anyone but those part of there belief structure into their homes, and cast curses in the name of god towards anyone not like them, and who hurt and sexually abuse their wives and children, should be physically bashed!!

The polygamist LDS are similar to the FLDS but dont have a militia gathering except perhaps if they are creating an army of wives and children.

Personally, I think if there is a hell, there is a place especially reserved for those two groups.


Here is something to think about though.
With all the concepts of God and Satan, not many religious beliefs really tends to direct anyone to the notion that God is neither good nor evil.
For example.
If God created that which became lucifer or satan, that means that God created the so called darkness or "Evil" that so many apply to the term. This would mean that God is both good and evil or that God is inherantly the hierarchy of evil since he made satan right?
Of course, many would say that Jesus is the antithesis of evil, thus he is the concept of pure "Good," so, that being said, he created both good and evil, yet resides over heaven, the so called "Good" place to go to when you die, and hell being the "bad" place to go to.

If God then, creating both good and evil, resides in heaven and not above it nor below it, how is the concept accurate?
If God, which in all meanings of the term, is basically the harmony of existence, the balance between good and evil, is at odds with evil; ie satan, then why?

I understand the stories and legends and mythos that go along with this all too well. I just cant see why people dont redefine their concept of God when this Deity, this all powerful all knowing God is basically everything, both good and bad and everything in between.

Of course this is semantics and this topic could be branched in so many ways.


The easiest way Ive dealt with this topic, is just by living the best I can, and doing what I can. We are human, so we are fallible, thus we were made so by "God" the creature of all.
Perhaps we are supposed to do all the things we do, so that God can know mortality and the beauty of imperfection.

[Rastus]

By all means, be just like Jesus.  Tht is to be so spitually enlightened that you transcend the physical body.  It's an admirable goal to reach for, nothing wrong with that!

Read my Bio for the appropriate Bible verses []  There's nothing wrong with GOD or Jesus, it's the Fan clubs that get Whacked[]

[The AlphaOmega]

Bad mouthing Mormonism isn't going to enlighten you.  I also use to be Mormon, and fell away because I thought it was a little extreme in the sense that there was pretty much a rule for everything.  But it helps them to have a good and positive life and that can't all be bad.  As for a cult, if you were Mormon and paid any attention you'd know that's fallacy.  Religion is not for everyone, but a lot of people do need it to give them hope and drive through life.  Living life by thinking negativily about a certain idea without knowing all there is to know about it is not going to improve your life.  Let people believe what they want and you are free to do the same.  As far as hell goes, well, never seen it.  I don't see hell as fire and brimstone.  I think it's a state of mind.  I think you can create your own existence in the after life based on whatever you choose.  Someone who is genuinly evil will retain such thoughts in the afterlife and create their world around that, to suit their comfort level.  And I think it'll most likely have country music to torment our eternal soul [], but maybe that's my own little hell on earth.  16 years old though?  I was in a very similar place as you when I was 16 as well.  As the years go by you'll learn new ideas and eventually find the one that works for you.  But you won't find it tomorrow.  So keep searching.

[Aileron]

I don't think anyone here was badmouthing mormons. Dark apprentice was "enlightening" us with his new found opinion which was quite an intellectual and necessary pursuit. Sometimes too, we must begin in a negative perception of something in order to become fully aware of its true faults as well as our own, and become accepting of whatever choices people come to make.

I apologize if i offended you in any way, but I too, was not badmouthing mormonism.
I was blantantly putting down the FLDS and polygomist LDS though because they are a cult in comparison to the general LDS which in certain regards has become a cult anyway since denying Joseph Smith as a prophet. But then again, the dividing lines between cult and religion has always been skewed.
But as I said as well FLDS and polygamy is not a healthy aspect/branchoff from the church.

I agree people need to question, this was the substance behind the topic.

I also agree if people find happiness in their belief then that is a beautiful thing.

I could go very deep though into my true opinions of the LDS church. When you live in the heart of a religiously oppressed state, you come to find what fallacy really means.

[TheDarkApprentice]

quote:Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

Bad mouthing Mormonism isn't going to enlighten you.  I also use to be Mormon, and fell away because I thought it was a little extreme in the sense that there was pretty much a rule for everything.  But it helps them to have a good and positive life and that can't all be bad.  As for a cult, if you were Mormon and paid any attention you'd know that's fallacy.  Religion is not for everyone, but a lot of people do need it to give them hope and drive through life.  Living life by thinking negativily about a certain idea without knowing all there is to know about it is not going to improve your life.  Let people believe what they want and you are free to do the same.  As far as hell goes, well, never seen it.  I don't see hell as fire and brimstone.  I think it's a state of mind.  I think you can create your own existence in the after life based on whatever you choose.  Someone who is genuinly evil will retain such thoughts in the afterlife and create their world around that, to suit their comfort level.  And I think it'll most likely have country music to torment our eternal soul [], but maybe that's my own little hell on earth.  16 years old though?  I was in a very similar place as you when I was 16 as well.  As the years go by you'll learn new ideas and eventually find the one that works for you.  But you won't find it tomorrow.  So keep searching.

I wasn't really trying to badmoutn the religon, just show my frustraion and anger because my parents can't think for themselves.

  I do agree though that religon is for some people. Some people need a little guide to help them find themselves and get closer with god. I just think that some of the ideas that these religons are saying are crazy. I mean some of it I really wonder why some of these people belive it. Obviously because they grew up with it or found these new ways. I dont know, it's all really frusterating. I can't see their being one true religon at all. They mostly have some good intentions and good family values and a path of living with a higher power, but I just can't belive everything they say and that everyone who doesn't follow them will go to hell.

I think that god (if there is one) really wants us to go are own ways and live life the best we can. We don't have to follow some crazy religon or try to be perfect. We just live our lives to the fullest and that would be enough. Besides, some of these religons really portray god as some what as a dictator. That we all must bow down to this higher power. even if god is as great as he says he is, he wouldn't make us do that. No way.

And thanks Alieron for understanding.

And Alpha Omega, there is such thing as cults. Trust me if you have been around mormonism as much as I as there is no way you can say that they are not a cult. Another example is Johova Witneses.Their even worse.

Well there's my two sense. And sorry if I don't sound as smart as the rest of you on these forums. Again, i am only 16, and not as book smart as a lot of my friends. But I do find that I am very street smat and think that that is good enough

[The AlphaOmega]

Yes, I know there is such a thing as a cult.  By Websters definition a cult is a following of a certain belief, so technically each religion is a cult.  When the word cult is used it's tendency is to mean evil.  I personally found no real evil in Mormonism, just confusion and a lack of skeptism.  And trust me, I've been around it as much as you.  I can understand your frustration with the church.  It's good that you are questioning their beliefs.  They find that hard to understand because most of them have never known questioning the church, they've been in it since birth, and they fear what they might find if they do question it.  You should remember however that the church is run by people, who are capable of getting things wrong.  Just because you hear someone in the church speak of going to hell if you're not Mormon doesn't mean that all mormons feel that way.  I've spoken with many that think quite the opposite.  Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone believs what one person says.  That goes for all religions.  I do remember the days when I was 16 and thought I knew it all and no one understood.  Be open minded to learning, because you have a lot to learn.

[TheDarkApprentice]

quote:Originally posted by The AlphaOmega

Yes, I know there is such a thing as a cult.  By Websters definition a cult is a following of a certain belief, so technically each religion is a cult.  When the word cult is used it's tendency is to mean evil.  I personally found no real evil in Mormonism, just confusion and a lack of skeptism.  And trust me, I've been around it as much as you.  I can understand your frustration with the church.  It's good that you are questioning their beliefs.  They find that hard to understand because most of them have never known questioning the church, they've been in it since birth, and they fear what they might find if they do question it.  You should remember however that the church is run by people, who are capable of getting things wrong.  Just because you hear someone in the church speak of going to hell if you're not Mormon doesn't mean that all mormons feel that way.  I've spoken with many that think quite the opposite.  Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone believs what one person says.  That goes for all religions.  I do remember the days when I was 16 and thought I knew it all and no one understood.  Be open minded to learning, because you have a lot to learn.

Yeah i'm more mad at the people who are at the head of the religon such as the presidents and bishiops. The ones setting the guidelines. It's just that some people take religon to the extreme and I think that is going a litte to far.

[TheDarkApprentice]

Simple question- Do you belive that there is a hell and what do you think it's like? Would the lowest astral plane possible possibly be hell?

Here's some other stuff on my mind.

I am agnostic and don't know what do belive. I'm 16 and unfortuneitly used to be mormon(cult). They precived hell or as they call it outer darkness, was for all people who didn't follow god's pan and wereextrmely negative and did evil demonic things on Earth. They also belive that there are three kingdoms of heavan and to be with god/heavnly father in the highest kingdom(Celestial kingdom) that we would have to be baptised, married in he temple, and live the purest and clean life and try to be like Jesus as much as we can.

I strongly disagree as I'm sure most people other than other mormons do. This is why I am agnostic. If we were all ment to be perfect then did exactly what god does, then there is no room for improvement and we're just following someonelse's orders. If there is a god, do you really think he/she would do this?? Most of these religons belive that they need do everything to be closest to god as we can and so we can obey him and live with him some day. Why?

Can't we think for ourselves and belive in ourselves? Although some religons are good for sme people, as they help them find their own spritual guidance and steers them in the right direction, they are some what being brainwashed and not thinking for themselves. You ask these people the infamous question, What would your faith and ideas of life be if you lived on a deserted iland all your life or were brought in a different upbringing, a lot of them say that they would still find good and be the same. That is BS. Wherever you are, and wherever you grow up, you will start out differently than say someone who grew up in africa opposed to someone who grew up in canada. Some people have the willpower to change and explore different ideas, but most people are so brainwashed that what they have been taught will stick with them. A lot of religons belive that you have to do certain to follow the bible and follow the church and do thing their way. But what you were on that deserted island. Would you go to what some of these religon's call hell?? Some think so. Even if you were a good person and just tried to live life to the fullest. If you don't belive in their faith or in a god at all, then you're done.

It just really saddens me that some people are caught in this trap and can't think for themselves. Some people don't have the willpower to see through it.

And if god is so great as he suppose to be, Then why is their a hell??? Wouldn't god want to try to teach these people that portrayed themselves as evil and just let them be. Do you really belive the apocolyse in the bible?? It's the biggest fiction tale ever. As I see then according to some relgons, God has a really evil side and doesn't respect people who choose a different path and not follow things that he has supposedly set out for us to do.

To conclude, I really do think that their's a great possibility that there is a god/higher power or even multiple ones. In a way, i think we may be our own god or everything and one is connected and we are all in a huge dream and don't really exist.

I am also sorry if I offened any of you but this is what I belive. If want to belive in somthing that you read about or because society or someone told you it's true, go ahead. I'm sorry for you. i would think that more people could belive in themselves but hey, some of us really do need more help than otheres and it's allright at times.

There's my rambling statement for today.( Man I wanted to talk about hell but got completely off topic)

-TheDarkApprentice

P.S.- If Mormonism was ever real, I'd kill myself in a heartbeat and do everything I could, anyway possible, to destroy it. I would actually be doing good for the world.

[Tyciol]

I wouldn't call Mormonism a cult. To be quite honest, I don't think there's any difference between a cult and religion. Religions are only called cults when they're small, with few members, and thus are oppressed by bigger ones. Cults are sometimes viewed as being founded by a single man out for personal fame and glory who recruited a bunch of followers, but if you go back in almost any religion (except maybe Taoism and Shamanism) you can find similar trends.

Besides, I heard that some Mormons used to allow polygamy, I consider that EXTREMELY enlightened.

[Gandalf]

I agree, cults are just new religions that havent grown enough to become 'mainstream'.. when a new religion arises the older established ones try their best to supress it and blacken its name, until the new faith in question becomes so great it is able to survive on its own regardless.. after a while it becomes accepted and is then called a 'religion' rather than a 'cult'. eg the Hari Krishna group are now so widespread they are gennerely regarded as a religion now, but not so long ago they were talked about as being a 'cult'. The word 'cult' should not be automatically viewed as a negative word, it is just a faith classifiaction or rather size classification.

The irony is, all the mainstream religions that like to bash cults, ALL started as cults themselves!


Christianity in its infancy was a cult and was supressed and put down by the established pagan religions; now christianity as the established religion does the same to all the new cults coming up, history shows us that the established faiths will fail in this aim.


Its amazing what you accept when you get used to it..
for example, many established religions warn of the techniques that cults use, sleep deprivation.... withdrawl from society, segregation... memorising endless lines of text and other forms of data,

where else does this happen?
try christian monesteries, nunneries etc.... all the same methods are used however its accepted so thats ok.


Of course you still get dodgy cults or dodgy branches of an otherwise respectable cult... just as you get dodgy branches of many mainstream religions.. the problem is that the 'cult bashers' try to tar them all with the same brush which is wrong.

At my university they have banned scientologists from handing out leaflets at the campus, but in an act of utter hypocracy they are quite happy to let a hard line christian nut stand outside with his bill board shouting at everyone.. you know the type, he has a long beard as he likes to think of himself as some kind of old testemant prophet and  he lives on some religious compound somewhere.... he is allowed to carry on of course.

douglas

PS about 'hell' I beleive this is self created, if you are convinced this is going to happen to you, then you will create that reality for yourself when you 'pass over' so to speak.. and it may take you a long while to get out of it..

As for 'evil', I follow Plato's line that 'evil' is an absense of good, not an outside opposing force as such.. fostered through ignorance.

I also dont think its 'nececerry' as such, rather it is an inevitatible consequence of the system but one we can try to avoid through learning.

[clandestino]

I disagree - there are clear distinctions to be made between the terms "cult" & "religion".... there are plenty of essays on the internet* discussing this in great depth. But this is a bit off topic, sorry !

Simple question- Do you belive that there is a hell and what do you think it's like? Would the lowest astral plane possible possibly be hell?

Yes, I believe there is a hell. However, it is not a place that we "go to".... instead, we will create it with our own expectations within the astral after dying, IF this is where our minds believe we will end up !

* Internet : A 20th century invention, also known as "the fountain of knowledge". Can be used to prove, or disprove, anything. An essential tool to use when trying to show that you are more intelligent than someone else.