Islam (open discussion)

[xander]

Originally posted by Robert Bruce

G'day Folks!

This topic is for the open discussion of things that relate to Islam, but do not fit the theme of 'friendly exploration'

>so I take it we can think critically in this thread and discuss the darker more shadowy aspects of islam and it's associated company?
> ever Read Why I am Not Muslim by Ibn Waraq?

Xander

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:ever Read Why I am Not Muslim by Ibn Waraq?

I have never read the book, but I have heard him speak on television. Most of his criticisms actually had little to do with the religion of Islam themselves but those who use Islam in today's world to the their own agenda. Despite this, he still makes it seem like these people are the representation of Islam.

I am interested in hearing some of his claims about Islam. If you could express them on this board, I'd be happy to attempt to refute them, or at least clear some things up.

One thing that he kept repeating is the 'intolerance' towards the apostates(those who leave Islam) under the Islamic(fundamentalist) government. For example, when the Iranian Sheikh declared a Fatwa to kill Salmon Rushdie because of his book "the Satanic Verses" and his open bashing of Islam. If you've noticed, most of the Muslims who leave Islam and openly insult it and defame it are not born in Muslim countries and do not grow up with the Islamic lifestyle. EVEN in Syria, and other countries which happen to be Muslim but have a Secular government, the people who leave Islam do not come out and  openly defame it and if they come to a Western country they still do not defame like those who are born in Western Countries.

He also says that the verse: "there is no complusion in religion" only applies to Jews in Christians but the Muslims are required to force people who are not from the 'People of the Book' to embrace Islam.
This is not true for the only time the Muslims were allowed to use force was against the idolators of Arabia who had: 1) persecuted the Muslims and their followers for 13 years; 2)Broke their treaties. The proof of this is in the Chapter Taubah where the so called 'Verse of the Sword' was revealed:

" Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers" [9:13]

and also, this warfaree was not even to all the idolators, but for those who had a treaty with the Muslims and did not break the treaties then they were commanded to respect the treaty:

"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. "[9:4]  

And more evidence of this is that Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) told the Muslims to not force the Persians to embrace Islam, although they were idolators; and also the fact that when the Muslims reached India, they did not force the Hindus to embrace Islam but subjected them to Jizya(protection tax) like the other non-Muslims.


And one more note, is that Ibn Warraq is an athiest. He does not completely deny just Islam but completely denies all religions. If Muslims were in power, I am sure he would write a book about "the currupt Christians." It seems to me that he wrote the book simply to make money and for public approval.

[xander]

I've been taking an Islamic Texts class in college. I have come to the conclusion that Islam, much like xianity, contains many followers who don't understand their own religion, they pick and choose the verses they use and twist them into what they want them to mean. Much like xianity, it is not the wise Muslim we hear from, rather it is the moaning and thrashing of extremists such as bin laden.

Since so many hear only the screaming and bitching of fundies it is easy to think that all Muslims are like so adn so. However, we must remember that just as Pat robertson is not the spokesman for all of xianity, bin laden and other fundi muslims are not representative of all of Islam.

Xander

[Lighthouse]

In an attempt to break it down to the basics... my understanding of the topic is thus:

The Muslim religion is based in the Judeo/Christian tradition.

Like the Jewish Tradition, Muslims eat Kosher and reject the images of Christ as Idolatry.

Prayer 5 times a day facing Mecca establishes 5 times a day that the Muslim life is devoted to God.

Also, the name Allah is translated to be something like, "The One and Only, The Eternal" similar to the description of God in Judeo/Christian tradition.

Now I need to get out my book of Islamic Law and Constitution to refresh my memory on the rest.[]

more later

--Lighthouse

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:The Muslim religion is based in the Judeo/Christian tradition.

What do you mean by this? As in it is like the Judeo tradition? Islam is not influenced by any Judeo traditions. It is based on Muhammad's experience and teachings, correct?

[Lighthouse]

Fallnangel,

I menat that they all worship the same God by that statement... and believe in very much the same stories or accounts which were initially described in the Torah, then later the Bible... sorry about the miscommunication, I can see that I didn't exactly express myself very clearly.  

Please visit the following link:
http://www.india-overland.com/exploringislam1.html

Here is an excerpt from that article

"Islam is an ancient religion with profound historical and theological ties to Judaism and Christianity. All three religions worship the same God, acknowledge large parts of the same Bible and revere Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. And, as do Christians, Muslims regard Jesus as the messiah.
In fact, Islam teaches that it represents the modern mainstream of a primordial, monotheistic religion that began with the earliest humans. Over millennia, the religion took form with the early Jewish prophets, was modified significantly by Jesus and finally shaped by Muhammad, the final prophet, who died in 632."


--Lighthouse

[jimbola]

Are the beliefs of Muslims any more valid than those of christians?

[Lighthouse]

I guess that depends upon who you're speaking to.  If you are  Jew, you believe that the Messiah has yet to appear.  If you are a Christian, you believe that the accounts of Christ in the Bible are the only relevent texts and none thereafter.  If you are a Muslim, you believe in the previous accounts plus the accounts of Muhammed.  If you are a Mormon, you believe that in the 1800's there were additional texts found in America that are the final texts after the bible...  The list goes on and on.

--Lighthouse

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:Also, the name Allah is translated to be something like, "The One and Only, The Eternal" similar to the description of God in Judeo/Christian tradition.  

The word Allah literrally means "The God" It is a combination of al(the) and ilaha(god), put together in such a manner that it can not be pluralized.  You might be thinking of the short chapter in the Quran describing very clearly what Muslim believe God to be like:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him."
[Quran 112:1-4]

quote: Are the beliefs of Muslims any more valid than those of christians?

The Quran has been proven to not have changed at all ever since it was spoken through Muhammad(pbuh). All of his followers memorized the Quran from front to back, down to the sillable, they wrote the Quran on leaves and anything else that they could find before his followers were finally able to compile it into a book. At the time the Quran was revealed there were  10 styles of poetry which the Arabs had spoken. When the Quran was revealed, it took on a new style of its own, completely different from the other styles of poetry, making the Quran impossible to imitate. The Quran challenged the Arabs to make one chapter like the Quran, in style and beauty, but noone has been able to do this to this day. This is besides the fact that the Prophet was illiterate.

The true miracle of Islam is the Quran, which due to its profound wisdom, scientific facts, beautiful poetry, and possibly more that Muslims might not have known yet, it is timeless, and it is meant to last until the Day of Judgement and for all of humanity.

Muslims believe that Muhammad(pbuh) is the last in the line of Prophets which were sent to humanity, which include Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David, etc.(peace be upon them all). The purpose of the messages they had sent were simply to remind their people of God's existence and for them to turn back in worship towards Him.

Muslims reject the idea of Jesus(peace be upon him)as being the Son of God, or the idea of the Holy Trinity. Muslims see Jesus as being a righteous slave of God himself, who walked in the streets like other prophets, and simply sent the same message that they had all sent, to worship One God. Muslims see 'salvation through Jesus Christ' as a form of polytheism in that Muslims see all worship towards God as being direct, and that you need know partners, no priests, no people, or images, to get you closer to God.

[Gandalf]

Are the beliefs of Muslims any more valid than those of christians?

Not really the right question to ask. You can't really 'prove' that one religion is any more valid than another. It comes down to personal taste.. that religion is then the most valid *for you*.



What do you mean by this? As in it is like the Judeo tradition? Islam is not influenced by any Judeo traditions. It is based on Muhammad's experience and teachings, correct?


Islam DOES follow on from the Judeo tradition. Islam, like christianity, accepts the Old Testament even if it believes that some of its info has been corrupted. The OT is as much part of Islam as it is part of Christianity.

Someone stated however that they accept Jesus as messiah. This is wrong.
Muslims recognise Jesus as a prophet, not god himself. In this way, the Muslim view of Jesus is the same view as that held by the Jews.

Therefor, Jesus was a prophet, after a long line of prophets. Mohammed is the last prophet in that line and his teachings are the final 'law' for the time being.

We should also remember that even in early Christianity the idea that Jesus was god was disputed and some christians themselves regarded him as a prophet, but the finalised decision to accept him as son of god occured at the Conference of Nicea in 325, presided over by Roman emperor Constantine. In addition, The 'trinity' concept was only formulated a century before (3rd Century AD).
(cf Prof. Robert Turcan : The cults of the Roman empire, 1996).

I don't think therefore that Muslims believe that Jesus ever said that he was the son of god; they believe that this was a later corruption of data, added in later, on purpose or by mistake.

Concerning extremeism. The Koran specifically states that Muslims are to respect other religions and islam is much more tolerent of other religions than chistianity is (in theory); followers of other faiths are not to be forced onto the 'true path'. Therefore in lands that Muslims conquer they usually allow churches/temples of other faiths to continue as before.
for example, in Greece, which was taken over by the Ottomam Turkish empire, Christian churches were by and large preserved, which is why, now that Greece is independant again, all their churches are still intact, Although a few were converted into mosques. cf Byzantium: the Hagia Sophia, ok, not in Greece. The Greek orthadox church still has its HQ in Istanbul, even although the country is muslim. In most cases, Christians were allowed to continue their worship.

A good story I heard in greece is of how the Greeks were aware of the Muslims tolerence for other religions and used this to their adantage; I cant remember which island it was, but when the Greeks heard that the turks were planning to take it, they built churches all over it so that almost ALL free space was taken up by churches!
Then when the Turks took the island, they were bound by their own rules so they couldnt do anything with the land they had taken!
To this day that Greek island has the most churches in one place than anywhere else in Greece!

However, the problem is, many of the midle-eastern countries are being run by fundamentalist regimes who choose to interpret the Koran in a certain way, and to 'forget' obvious things like 'respect other religions'. however Fundamentalist Islam is not a true representation of Islam, just as most normal Christians would not be associated with nutty Christian fundamentalists... you know the types... the ones who actually think it would be a good idea to have a nuclear war in the Middle-east as it would hasten the 'second coming'!!!

You find this with any fundi- religion, christian fundis tend to forget obvious Christ teachings like 'love thy neighbour, thy enemies and so on.
Imagine the US or the UK run by christian fundamentalists.... actually we have had that already with the Puritan Oliver Cromwell.... banning Christmas for example... what a git!

Anyway, thats my limited take on Islam.. not a bad religion.

Douglas

[clandestino]

Hi there Douglas,

I'd agree with you that Islam is broadly not a bad religion. However, western society as a whole doesn't share this view... Islam is often presented in a bad light, and there are plenty of valid reasons for the media's take on Islam :

a) The reluctance of muslim immigrant communitites to integrate into western society.
b) An open contempt for western values.
c) The treatment of women within muslim communities.
d) The concept of subservience within Islam.
e) The acceptance of child brides.
f) The occurence of forced marriages and honour killings, more prevalent within Islamic society.
g) The contradictory stance on the value of human life : The quran says "kill no one", yet the Islamic governments choose otherwise.
h) The lack of freedom of speech within Islamic countries.
i) The lack of public condemnation from Muslim leaders re. terrorist offences.

Perhaps this widely held negative view of Islam needs to be addressed, both by muslims and western society.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here; I hope that I have not offended people by what I've written above. I tried to put down what I believe are a few examples of why Islam is seen in a bad light by the West.

One more point !....

quote:Therefore in lands that Muslims conquer they usually allow churches/temples of other faiths to continue as before.

Fair enough, they usually do...William Dalrymple's "from the holy mountain" details a lot of destruction of armenian places of worship in Turkey, but I guess that this is a seperate issue from Faith.

..plus, ironically WD's book recounts the days gone by when the muslim & christian faiths lived side by side....perhaps i shouldn't have used it as a counterpoint to your view ! doh !

Mark

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:An open contempt for western values.

I have this contempt also. How can I not have such contempt when it is getting to the point that homosexuality, something forbidden in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism is turning into something acceptable in Western society?  I am not sure about in the Bible, but the Quran states that a whole nation was destroyed mainly because of their indulgence in homosexuality.

quote:The concept of subservience within Islam.

Could u explain what u mean a little further?

quote:The treatment of women within muslim communities.

A fact which is completely ignored by the West in these days, is that when Islam came to Arabia, it gave women rights to inheritance, rights to divorce, and many other rights which they did not have before Islam. In places like France and other countries in Europe, women did not get such rights until a couple hundred years ago.

The fact that the Quran states that men are the protectors and maintainers of women is not something which is meant to degrade, but is to present the nature of men and women in a reasonable fashion. Women in essence deal with many problems which men do not deal with. For example women have to face their period every month which i have heard from many girls is very hectic and very painful. Is it right that a woman would have to be put in a position where she would have to work during such a time?? Islam gives women the right to work, the right to the money she makes when she works, but in essence it is the husband's job to provide for the family.

Here are some verses from the Quran from the chapter entitled: "Women" which is basically about women(and their relationship with men):

"O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], and from them both He created many men and women and fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship) . Surely, Allah is Ever an All­Watcher over you. " [Quraan 4:1]

"And give to the women (whom you marry) their Mahr (obligatory bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage) with a good heart, but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it, and enjoy it without fear of any harm (as Allah has made it lawful)." [Quraan 4:4]


"There is a share for men and a share for women from what is left by parents and those nearest related, whether, the property be small or large - a legal share. "[Quraan 4:7]



"O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr(dowry) you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good." [Quraan 4:19]


"And wish not for the things in which Allah has made some of you to excel others. For men there is reward for what they have earned, (and likewise) for women there is reward for what they have earned, and ask Allah of His Bounty. Surely, Allah is Ever All­Knower of everything. "[Quraan 4:32]

"And to everyone, We have appointed heirs of that (property) left by parents and relatives. To those also with whom you have made a pledge (brotherhood), give them their due portion (by Wasiya ­ wills, etc.). Truly, Allah is Ever a Witness over all things."  [Quraan 4:33]



"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see ill­conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great. " [Quraan 4:34]


And probably what is seen as the most demeaning is the enforcement of hijab(the veil which covers the hair). The Taliban enforced the berka which is not meant to be enforced. Here are the verses about hijab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. " [Quran 33:58]

The wisdom in hijab is that women are not molested and not seen as public property. The phrase 'that they should be known' is said by commentators to be referring to the idea that the believing women should distinguish themselves from the slave-women in Arabia. They should use hijab as a way of saying that they are not public property but that their body is their own business.

"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof(the face and the hands); that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. " [Quraan 24:31]

quote:
The acceptance of child brides.

It depends what you consider a child bride. If she has already hit the age of puberty she is not considered a child anymore, the same goes for the man.

quote:The occurence of forced marriages and honour killings, more prevalent within Islamic society.

Both are forbidden in Islam, but i do agree they are prevalent in the middle east. These practices are very much like old tribal practices which have nothing to do with Islam.

quote:
The contradictory stance on the value of human life : The quran says "kill no one", yet the Islamic governments choose otherwise.

the Quran does not exactly say kill noone but allows killing if done under certain circumstances:

"...if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. ..." [Quraan 5:32]

If killing is done for no reason but to rob or to 'spread mischief in the land', it is completely forbidden and is actually punishable by death. Such killing is considered as if one has killed all of humanity. But if the killing is done in self-defense or while Muslims are in state of war with another nation it isnt considered murder:

"Permission is given to those who fight, because they have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give them victory

Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." - For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, Allah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty. " [Quran 22:40-41]

Killing can only be done in course of a just cause(such in cases of law and in war) and in a just manner:

"(describing the conduct of believers)And those who cry not unto any other god along with Allah, nor take the life which Allah hath forbidden save in (course of) justice, nor commit adultery - and whoso doeth this shall pay the penalty(of law);" [Quran 25:68]

I would say that the "Islamic countries" of today have twisted up their values and have completely abondoned Islamic ideals. The truth is that there is not one government that exists today that would be considered a truly Islamic one, and most scholars of Islam have stated this many times. Islamic ways of ruling and government have been abandoned by all the governments of the Muslim people and most Muslims admit to this fact. One of the most heartbreaking ideas that exists to Muslims is the fact that there is not one nation that can represent Islam correctly, while in reality according to Islam the purpose of the khalifah(leader of the Muslim people) and his government is to call others to Islam.

[onefromsomewhereelse]

While Islam does say Jesus is just a prophet, Jesus said He was God; that is why the Jews turned on Him...for blasphemy.
Jesus is either God, or He is a liar.  He can't be just anothr prophet.  Of course, the reserrection proved that He was indeed God.

[DjMidgetMan]

quote:While Islam does say Jesus is just a prophet, Jesus said He was God; that is why the Jews turned on Him...for blasphemy.
Jesus is either God, or He is a liar. He can't be just anothr prophet. Of course, the reserrection proved that He was indeed God.

The Jews of Medina turned on Muhammad(pbuh), but Muhammad forbade his followers to look upon him divinely.

Jesus said he was God???

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven"   (Matthew 7:21)

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, bore witness of Me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape"   (John 5:37)

"And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone."  (Mark 10:18)

"And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges."   (John 8:50)

" Jesus answered them and said, "my doctrine are not Mine, but His who sent Me"  (John 7:16)

"he who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent me"  (John 14:24)

"For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak"  (John 12:49)

"Jesus said to them, 'My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work"  (John 4:34)

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent me"  (John 6:38)

"saying, 'Father, if it is your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done"  (Luke 22:42)

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me"  (John 5:30)

"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him"  (John 13:16)

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I"  (John 14:28)

"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me"   (John 8:42)

"To sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father"  (Matthew 20:23)

"So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me"   (John 7:16)


Tell me one place in the Bible where it says for people to worship Jesus.

A rebuttal about Jesus claiming to be God from Answering Christianity.com:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/iam.htm

What the Quran says about Christians and Jesus

"They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. " [Quran 5:17]

"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah(God) is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah(God), my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah(God), for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah(god) save the One Allah(God). If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! "
[Quran 5:72-75]

"Say: O People of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of folk who erred of old and led many astray, and erred from a plain road. " [Quran 5:77]

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. " [Quran 3:59]


"Say: O People of the Scripture! Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partner unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him). "   [Quran 3:64]

"Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. " [Quran 3:84]

"It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path. " [Quraan 19:36]

"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter ought concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him, so believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three"! Cease! (it is ) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as defender. " [4:171]


There are many many other verses about Jesus and his birth.

[DjMidgetMan]

60 Questions for the Christian http://www.clearguidance.com/article.php?id=973

[Jenadots]

Jesus, himself, never said he was God.  He asked what do you say I am?  In any case, whatever he said or didn't say, his words have certainly been altered over the centuries.

As for the contempt we westerners have for various Islamic sects -- how can we not?

As a woman, I am outraged at what is done to young girls in some Islamic countries.  Widows are forced to beg because they are forbidden to work in some places.  And they are all punished for their beauty as author Sheri Tepper says by having to be completely covered lest some man be driven to insane lust by seeing a chin or an ankle or an arm.  Women and girls who are raped are often stoned to death or killed by their brothers on the off chance that she might have liked it.  As if any woman or girl likes being brutalized in such a way.  

As an American I am outraged that so many danced in the streets while thousands died in New York and DC.

As a Christian, I often wonder just what some of them are praying for five times a day.  Do the suicide bombers pray: Allah, let me kill as many people as I can today?  

Those who are obsessed with killing Americans and other "infidels", meaning the 5 billion non-muslims in the world, claim to be people of the book.  Yet somehow they think that Thou Shalt Not Kill has a part that says unless it is a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu or a Buddhist or just anyone else at all. In many Islamic countries it is not illegal to kill a Christian or a Jew.

Until the religious leaders of this religion begin to condemn the sects that somehow get 18 year olds to strap bombs on their bodies and to become mass murderers, how can we not have contempt for them?
Live and let live is certainly not one of the precepts of Islam.  No one seems to be preaching that idea to them.  

They say they want to live in peace, yet everywhere they live in large numbers, there is no peace -- only death to those around them who are not Islamics and do not want to be.  It is only in the countries where the people are 100% Islamic that they have a kind of peace, brutal tho it may be to some of its citizens.  

I would hope that in this century a leader arises that begins to lead this religion out of its facination with death-to-anybody-else philosophy and into a concept that all life and all living things are sacred.  

[need]

Couldn't we say this about all religions and it's people, more or less, to some degree.

[Jenadots]

Yes, but the Catholics stopped burning heretics and non-believers a few hundred years ago.  Of course the good Christians of Hitler's Germany and other European nations had no problem killing Jews and 5 million other people which he justified as a racial purification - he didn't really see it as a religious duty.  

The buddhists don't go on killing sprees either.  

I do agree that any religion can be warped by any group to obsessive, evil behavior on the part of some.  Every group does seem to have its fanatics.  But most have gotten away from the believe or die philosophy.  

[rhinegirl]

quote:Originally posted by Jenadots

The buddhists don't go on killing sprees either.  
 

Actually if you research about Buddhism and Hinduism in their parent countries both in the past and now you will discover many violent sects of each religion who claims that their way is the only way.

Jessica

[rhinegirl]

Jena please don't take what i am about to say as offense, I am merely attempting to assist you in gaining the ability to see things through others eyes.

From what I hear from American freinds, it would seem that the west has accepted many watered down versions of hinduism, islam, buddhism, etc.

In many places where xianity is the exception and not the rule America is seen as an imperialistic power which not only occupies countries though commerce but erodes cultures as well. Did you know for example that most Indians speak English. Partially because they were once a British colony and now America has many hundreds of large corporations there.

Corporate Imperialism creates wage gaps, hence why a place like Mcd's can pay their employees in foreign countries next tonothing while at the same time raise prices to increase profit in such a way that they eventually bankrupt the local economy. Also most of these businesses do nothing to put resources back into the population. Once the place is sucked dry the corporations move away and people are left starving to death.

As far as Isreal and Palestine goes, the Palestinians have no united country, just little swatches of land with checkpoints in between. A palestinian who wants to go to work or go to university spend as much as 4 hrs on a bus between each checkpoint. The Isreali guards are notorious for turning people back and stalling buses for hours at a time. Isrealis and Palestinians are both responsible and sadly one has to look at the fact they consider themselves oppressd. Big diff is that teh "oppressed" Isrealis have the backing of the U.S. govt and machine guns, while teh Palestinians have only themselves and whatever they can scavenge off the black market.

Jena, I suggest you educate yourself in regards to the rest of teh world, step away from your Latte and get to know the rest of the world, I am certain your latte will still be there when you are finished walking in the other persons shoes for a bit.

Jessica

quote:Originally posted by Jenadots

Jesus, himself, never said he was God.  He asked what do you say I am?  In any case, whatever he said or didn't say, his words have certainly been altered over the centuries.

As for the contempt we westerners have for various Islamic sects -- how can we not?

As a woman, I am outraged at what is done to young girls in some Islamic countries.  Widows are forced to beg because they are forbidden to work in some places.  And they are all punished for their beauty as author Sheri Tepper says by having to be completely covered lest some man be driven to insane lust by seeing a chin or an ankle or an arm.  Women and girls who are raped are often stoned to death or killed by their brothers on the off chance that she might have liked it.  As if any woman or girl likes being brutalized in such a way.  

As an American I am outraged that so many danced in the streets while thousands died in New York and DC.

As a Christian, I often wonder just what some of them are praying for five times a day.  Do the suicide bombers pray: Allah, let me kill as many people as I can today?  

Those who are obsessed with killing Americans and other "infidels", meaning the 5 billion non-muslims in the world, claim to be people of the book.  Yet somehow they think that Thou Shalt Not Kill has a part that says unless it is a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu or a Buddhist or just anyone else at all. In many Islamic countries it is not illegal to kill a Christian or a Jew.

Until the religious leaders of this religion begin to condemn the sects that somehow get 18 year olds to strap bombs on their bodies and to become mass murderers, how can we not have contempt for them?
Live and let live is certainly not one of the precepts of Islam.  No one seems to be preaching that idea to them.  

They say they want to live in peace, yet everywhere they live in large numbers, there is no peace -- only death to those around them who are not Islamics and do not want to be.  It is only in the countries where the people are 100% Islamic that they have a kind of peace, brutal tho it may be to some of its citizens.  

I would hope that in this century a leader arises that begins to lead this religion out of its facination with death-to-anybody-else philosophy and into a concept that all life and all living things are sacred.  

[Jenadots]

I do know the rest of the world quite well.  I am well read and well traveled.  

All your points about American corporations and the Palestinian are true.  They have absolutely nothing to do with religion of any kind.

If these countries do not want American corporations, they can say no and not welcome them in.  They want the business and the jobs such as they are.  I do not like that people get paid a pittance for what they do.  But I do know that even that little can mean the difference between starving and not starving.  I do not defend corporate behavior in other countries, or even in my own.  

I know the rest of the world sees us as an imperial power. Most Americans do not want us to be that.  I particularly do not want us to be that - no more troops anywhere else, no more foreign aid anywhere, just humanitarian help in the form of goods and services for disasters and such.  

Of course, if the US government truly adopted that concept, the rest of the world would scream - Where are the Americans and why aren't they doing something about this? -- whatever this is.  We hear it all the time.  The next time the Europeans or anyone else want to have at it in an all out war, I say we sit it out.  Enough of our blood has been shed in other countries in the 20th century and I do not like that more of a very fine generation is out there in 106 different countries, most of which are quite capable of defending themselves.

Unfortunately, if other want US help, we come with it.  And I agree that is not always a good thing.  The rest of the world should not copy our gas guzzling SUV's, our high powered neon signs, our low nutrition junk food, and certainly not the garbage of our lifestyle from so many of the things they see and hear from our TV, movies, and music.  Most of us do not live the "Hollywood" lifestyle and values.

But for better or for worse, we find ourselves in a global economy and a global communications system and that has hurt many American employees who now find themselves without jobs or the most limited of jobs.  

This has nothing to do, of course, with Islam or any other religion.
As for the watered down versions of other religions, I do read the real thing.  The religion of Islam used to be one of the more tolerant ones.  Today, the most vocal and influencal sects are not and it took centuries to get that way.  

I have no doubt that the terrorists will try again and again in the USA.  And if they succeed in doing something truly horrendous, in how many countries will they be dancing in the streets, shooting off guns, and praising the terrorists who did it?  How many of them will be yelling "Allah Be Praised" as my American brothers and sisters die?

I do not believe that God - whatever he or she is called - rejoices in any acts of murder and terrorism.  True Islam, just as true Hinduism, true Christianity, true Buddhism, or true Judaism does not teach this.  But what is to be done with the religious sects - and leaders - who preach this?  Only those within the religion can change that.  And right now, it doesn't seem that the Islamic world has very many leaders saying these acts of murder are wrong.  

Whatever their differences with the USA's political or economic policies, there seems to be no recognition of the idea that everyone has a right to exist.  Just that.  Nothing more.  They don't have to like us or love us or copy us or even welcome us.  But, it is a definition of a civilized being, to recognize that others have an equal right to exist, however and whomever they are.

We, collectively, have to share this earth, this planet.  It is to our detriment that we, collectively, have not found a way to do that without killing each other over wars, land, politics, greed, beliefs and any number of things.  I do believe that the religion of Islam will, someday, find its way out of its current praise of terrorism.  I don't know how or when, but I hope it is soon. The long suffering people of Islam certainly deserve peace and prosperity as much as anyone.  

As for the Palestinians, they could have had peace with the last agreement if Arafat has said yes.  He got just about everything he wanted and still said no.  As to their poverty, how did Arafat get so wealthy?  Certainly not from money from his own, poor people.  They could have had schools, hospitals, an entire infra-structure, modern business and all sorts of things with all of the millions he has gotten over the decades he has been in power.  Obviously, the money and aid didn't get spent where it was intended to be.  He is just one example of why I do not favor giving any foreign aid in the form of money to other countries or their leaders.  Too often, it has done more harm than good and makes for some very rich dictators.

[Jenadots]

PS...please do not assume that just because I like a latte on Saturday mornings that I never pick up a book, read a newspaper, watch a documentary, or travel the world.  That would be incorrect.

And yes, it was rather offensive and patronizing.  Oh, well....it is obvious you don't like us either.  

Peace be with you anyway...[]

[rhinegirl]

quote:Originally posted by Jenadots

PS...please do not assume that just because I like a latte on Saturday mornings that I never pick up a book, read a newspaper, watch a documentary, or travel the world.  That would be incorrect.

And yes, it was rather offensive and patronizing.  Oh, well....it is obvious you don't like us either.  

Peace be with you anyway...[]

So you realize that most countries do not have seperation of church and state, and then you also realize that the U.S. is an interventionist govt which does do everything it can, including overthrowing other democracies in order to increase profit.

As for other countries telling us they don't want us there, many have and our govt either takes them to the world court or uses subterfuge in order to force them into certain positions.

The America gov't is a bully. I admit I am glad Saddam was deposed, should've happened a decade earlier there. Considering the fact that Iraq is one of teh worlds largest oil supliers it makes perfect sense for the govt to occupy that country so that the American people get a steady supply of oil in case the Saudis stop being so generous. No gov't is lily white in regards to it's morals.

As far as sitting out it has been proven trhat America often does only what's good for it. Your country would never have gotten involved in WW2 if not for Pearl Harbor. The current president knew this and let it happen. Your govt also knew about teh 9-11 hijackers but allowed it to happen. Right after 9-11 the only planes allowed to fly were the ones returning various Saudi nationals back to Saudi Arabia. Wake up America. Your govt doesn't care about you, it's fattening you all up for slaughter, by the time they strike you will have no power other than to submit. It happened in Germany....It ShALL happen in America.

Jessica.

[Jenadots]

Dear Jess.  Iraq and oil -- no shortage of oil in other places. We have plenty of places to buy it from.  In any case, in 10 years we will all be driving hybrid cars and they can eat their oil.  

So wrong about WWII - with or without Pearl Harbor, the USA would have been involved as there were German submarines off the eastern coast of the US.  It was only a matter of time.

And just what democracy did we overthrow?  Saddam's?  the USSR's?
which democracy are you talking about?  Just because I recognize that the government  has too often supported tyrants and that in supporting them, they terrorize their own people and others, doesn't mean I have the dim view of it that you do.

And just what country took McDonald's or Coca Cola to the world court for refusing to leave?  When the government in the Philipines asked the USA to leave the air force base there, we all said thank you, packed up and left.

What is truly hypocritical is countries where the people hate us for whatever reason, yet continue to take our money.  They don't say no.  Of course, I do blame us for that as we continue to offer it.

No, I do not believe the president knew about 9/11 and that terrorists were going to fly planes into buildings.  Maybe he should have.  Maybe somebody in the intelligence community should have.  But they didn't.  If the only planes flying were to get Saudi's and other Arabs home, probably a reasonable precaution in case the nut cases here decided to go on a rampage against all Arabs.

It is to our credit that even after that disaster there were remarkably few incidents of Islamic bashing or violence against Arab peoples who live here.  Sure, there were some incidents and some nasty words said.  But for the most part, they were left alone and in peace.

As for the future, anyone who thinks Americans will "submit" as you call it to whatever slaughter you seem to think we deserve, doesn't know us very well.  All soft and fuzzy on the outside, but there is true grit inside.  We are, after all the descendants of people who endured and survived some horrible things to get here.  Even the native Americans who have survived the rest of us have that grit.  

I doubt we will go peacefully into that dark night that happened in Germany in the 30's and 40's.  We are not, by nature, a very obedient people.  We relish throwing the bums out of office when it is necessary.  It is not a perfect system, but there are not many better.  Of course, any government can be disrupted and overthrown by a few and most of us do have concerns over our privacy and our rights and freedoms.  Every government bears watching.  That is only common sense.

I do, however, hope that more countries do decide to have a separation of religion and state.  Theocracies become brutal when any crime is also a sin - however a religion defines sin.  And who on this earth doesn't "sin" by somebody's definition of it?  So this separation is a good thing.  Like everything else here it isn't perfect and doesn't always work as well as we would like.  

As you implied, no government is pure and perfect because none of us are.  Again, does that mean we deserve to be slaughtered?  No, not by anyone.  Certainly not by Islamic fanatics who really have nothing to live for themselves.  These young men, and now women, are being used and used badly by people who convince them to do such things by telling them they will be rewarded in paradise.  

I feel sorry for them as much as I feel anger at them and the people who convince them to martyr themselves so they can gain power, influence and a warped sense of glory -- all in the name of Allah -- all in the name of God.

I can only imagine how insulted God must be at that.  

I think I will go for another Latte while I am still free to do so!

Bye....Jena

[southakj]

Myopia can be dangerous, every society has contempt for the other until an attempt is made to understand the other.

For people engaged in Spiritual pursuits to not RELENTLESSLY examine their preconceptions and assumptions is simply foolhardy. One poster refered to dancing in the streets after Sept. 11th but did she realise the sheer number of candlelight vigils for the dead held across the Muslim world? Does she realise that as much sympathy has been directed at the US in many of these countries as rage?

However the TV tends to tune into lurid images that match our own preconceptions. One reads about horrible things done to little girls in some Muslim societies but one knows utterly nothing about similar, if not worse, practices in Hindu India, or in Certain Buddhist societies, or in pagan African societies, to this day.

Would she believe it if this was pointed out to her or would she dismiss it all?

Question your answers, is all that I'm trying to say. And for God's sake don't just believe everything you see on TV. The world is complex, far more complex than just black and white.