The Christian faith is based on the belief that the Bible is indeed the word of god. If the Bible cannot be shown to be inspired, then the Christian faith could be said to be false and no more than a farce. If the Bible cannot be shown to be inspired, then Christianity can be said to be the same as any other religion that has been devised and practiced by man.
The Bible story of Jesus is a contradictory and confusing account. The Bible shows that this Jesus fellow spoke and taught many absurd and foolish things, and often believed he was having a conversation with devils. If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, idiotic laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving god. Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible.
We are taught in our culture that Jesus is the divine hero, but other cultures have different saviors. Religious beliefs are a function of the culture in which one lives. If we had been reared in a different culture, we would have heard the story of a different savior, instead of the Jesus story. Upon comparing the stories of the different saviors, one finds that the similarities are so striking, it is beyond a doubt that they are more than just a coincidence.
Now, let's take a look at the facts.
Jesus is called the lamb of god that takes away the sins of the world. Talk about an old concept. Vitually all the ancient religions in the world had a lamb of god that takes away the sins of the world. The buddists today, an ancient priesthood far in access to christianity, have a religions leader called the Dali Lama...whos names translates to god's lamb.
Some examples of past religious leaders such as jesus being represented with a lamb, dating far before chrisitianity,
as depicted by ancient statues and artifacts include the ancient turkish god and the lamb, the ancient greek god and the lamb, and the ancient roman god and the lamb. (Sorry I have left the photographs out)
Amen Ra is the egytian god who represented the sun. He had an adversary, named Set. Sound familiar, such as Jesus and his adversary Satan? The resemblances between Jesus and Ra, and all of the other saviors of mankind, are just too many. Let's compare these famous "sons of god." Well compare Jesus, Horus of egypt, Chrishna of Entia, and Buddha of the Orient. Just keep in mind that Horus, Chrishna, and Buddha were created far before the story of Jesus was.
***Horus was baptised by water by anup:::Jesus baptised by water by John
***Annab the baptiser:::John the baptist
***Horus born in Annu, the place of bread:::Jesus born in Bethlehem, the house of bread
***Horus the good shepherd with the crook upon his shoulders:::Jesus the good shepherd the with lamb or kid upon his shoulders
***The seven on board the bark with Horus:::The seven fishers on board the bark with Jesus
***Horus as the lamb::: Jesus as the lamb
***Horus as the lion::: Jesus as the lion
***Horus as the black child:::Jesus as the little black bambino
***Horus identified with the tat or cross:::Jesus identified with the cross
***Horus 30 yrs old at his baptism:::Jesus 30 yrs old at his baptism
***Horus the krst:::Jesus the christ
***Horus the manifesting son of god::: Jesus the manifesting son of god
***Two mothers of child Horus who were sisters:::Two mothers of child Jesus who were sisters
***Horus the sower and Set the destroyer in the harvest field:::Jesus the sower of the good seed and satan the sower of tares
***Set and Horus contending on the mount::: Jesus and satan contending on the mount
***The star, as announcer of the child Horus:::The star in the east that indicated the birthplace of Jesus
***Horus the afflicted one:::Jesus the afflicted one
***Horus as the type of life eternal:::Jesus as the type of eternal life
***Horus who comes to fulfill the law::: Jesus who comes to fulfill the law
***Horus who came by the blood, the water, and the spirit::: Jesus who came by the blood, the water, and the spirit
***Horus of the two horizons::: Jesus of the two lands
***Horus walking on the water::: Jesus walking on the water
***Horus entering the mount at sunset to hold conversation with his father::: Jesus entering the mount at sunset to hold conversation with his father
***12 followers of Horus as har-khutti:::12 followers of Jesus as the 12 disciples
***The secret of the mysteries revealed by taht-aan:::The secret of the mysteries made known by john
***Anup and Aan the two witnesses for Horus::: John and John as witnesses for Jesus
***Horus the morning star:::Jesus the morning star
***Buddha was born of the virgin Maya who concieved him without intercourse::: Jesus was born of the virgin Mary who concieved him without intercourse
***The incarnation of Buddha was brought about by the desent of the divine power called the holy ghost, upon the virgin Maya::: The incarnation of Jesus was brought about by the desent of the divine power called the holy ghost, upon the virgin Mary
***Buddha was visited by wise men who recognized in this marvelous infant all the characcters of the divinity::: Jesus was visited by wise men who recognized in this marvelous infant all the characcters of the divinity
***When Buddha was an infant, he spoke to his mother and said, i am the greatest among men::: When Jesus was an infant, he spoke to his mother and said, i am Jesus, the son of god
***When Buddha died and was buried, the coverings of the body unrolled themselves and the lid of his coffin was opened:::When Jesus died and was buried, the coverings of the body unrolled themselves and his tomb was opened
***Buddha ascended bodily to the celestial regions, when his mission on earth was fullfilled:::Jesus ascended bodily to the celestial regions, when his mission on earth was fullfilled
***Buddha is alpha and omega, without beginning or end, the supreme being, the eternal one:::Jesus is alpha and omega, without beginning or end, the supreme being, the eternal one
***Buddha is to come upon the earth again in the latter days, his mission being to restore the world order and happiness:::Jesus is to come upon the earth again in the latter days, his mission being to restore the world order and happiness
***Crishna was born of a chaste virgin:::Jesus was born of a chaste virgin
***The moment Chrishna was born, the whole cave was splendidly illuminated::: The moment Jesus was born, there was a great light in the cave
***Chrishna was adored by cowherds who prostrated themselves before the heaven-born child:::Jesus was adored by shepherds who prostrated themselves before the heaven-born child
***Chrishna was born when Nanda, his foster father, was away from home, having come to the city to pay his tax or tribute to the king::: Jesus was born when joseph, his foster father, was away from home, having come to the city to pay his tax or tribute to the governor
***Chrishna's father was warned by a 'heavenly voice" to fly with the child to gacool, across the river jumna, as the reigning monarch sought his life::: Jesus' father was warned in a dream to take the young child and his mother, and flee into egypt, as the reigning monarch sought his life
***The ruler of the country in which Chrishna was born ordered the massacre of all the children of the male sex born during the night of the birth of Chrishna::: The ruler of the country in which Jesus was born ordered all children in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, to be slain
***One of Chrishna's first miracles was the curing of a leper::: One of Jesus' first miracles was the curing of a leper
***Chrishna was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross, Jesus was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross
***Chrishna after being put to death, rose from the dead::: Jesus after being put to death, rose from the dead
***Chrishna, although born in a state the most abject and humiliating, was of royal descent::: Jesus although born in a state the most abject and humiliating, was of royal descent
Is this a coincidence? There is a lot of similarity and syncronicity going on for it to just be a coincidence.
Lets go back 10 thousand years before Jesus and look at the 16 other men who claimed to be the son of god, who were born of a virgin mother, whose mother had the name of Mary, or a dirivative of the word Mary, who were in the temple teaching/scoulding their elders by the age of 12, whose ruler of land tried to put them to death, who were asked by someone greater than they to move from the land they were born in, who began their ministry at the age of 30, and ended it at 33, and were killed on the cross. These events happend in 16 different events prior to jesus. Here is a list of these men who led the same exact lives:
Chrishna of India, 1200 BC
Hindoo Sakia 600 BC
Thammuz of Seria 1160 BC
Wittoba 552 BC
Iao of Napal 422 BC
Hesus 834 BC
Quexalcote of Mexico 587 BC
Quirinus of Rome 506 BC
Prometheus 547 BC
Thulis of Egypt 1700 BC
Indra of Tibet 725 BC
Alcestos 600 BC
Atys 1170 BC
Crite of Caldia 1200 BC
Bali 725 BC
Mithra of Persia 600 BC
Time and time again, we have to look at these simliarities. You can look up any of these men up, and will find their lives are full of syncronicity and similarity. We're not dealing with myth, belief systems, or faith. We're dealing with facts, historical data. It is there, you cannot set it aside. Jesus had the same life, and did the same things, as Chrishna, Buddha, and the above 16 other men.
So this leads to the question... who have we been worshiping? Or what?
What or who have we been living for?
And most importantly, what or who has man been killing man for?
Remember, religion has killed more human beings than any other force on earth.
The answer gets plane and obvious upon taking a close look at the new testament.
I'm going to make a statement that many people in denial will not want to hear, but i will prove the point soon enough. The bible is nothing more than a retelling of the most ancient story ever told, which is why the bible is called the greatest story ever told. This story is the story of the zodiac. Astrology. The bible is nothing more than the greatest astrological story ever told. It is pure astrology, based on the zodiac. It is astrotheology, the worsihp of the gods heaven.
In ancient times the air was divided into 12 equal parts, just as it is today by the 12 months. Each part is called a zodiac, or a house. The sun travels through each house of the zodiac, which is why the son of god had 12 helpers in the Egyptian myth, and 12 disciples in the Christian myth. The zodiac is then broken into 4 equal parts, forming the shape of a cross.(hmm where have i seen this before?)
In the book of John in the New Testiment 14*2 , Jesus said... "in my fathers house there are many masions." This was not correctly translated, as were many other scriptures in the king james. This translation makes no sense. It is actually, "in my fathers abode, there are many dwelling places." Well of course, there are 12 houses(dwelling places) in the heavens that we know of, which are in "my fathers abode."
In Jobe, chapter 38*31, god says to Jobe.... "canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season?" What are we talking about here? Pleiades and Orion are two astrological symbols of the zodiac. But wait.. I thought astrology is the devil? It's that "new age" stuff? Yet it is right here, in the bible. From the King James bible, the word mazzaroth means the 12 signs of the zodiac. Therefore god is saying, "can thou bring forth the zodiac in his season?" Were talking astrology here.
Lets take a look at the "end times" of the bible. From Mathew 14*17, Jesus fed his followers two fishes. These two fishes are the symbol of pisces. Therefore gods son, that comes up in the morning, feeds his people of two fishes. This is why fish are such a symbolic theme of chrisitanity. You will find this symbol on mostly all churches. The "birth of Jesus" was the begining of the age of pisces, and Rome ruled the world for 2 thousand years under the age of pisces, and of course we all know Rome is where chiristianity was born. When gods son leaves the age of pisces, he goes into the age of aquarious. This age is symoblized by the man with the water pitcher. From Luke 22*10, when Jesus is asked where he will begin his new kingdom, he says, "when ye are entered into the city, there shall be a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water, follow him into the house where he entereth in." A man with a pitcher of water? OHHH you mean aqurarious? Symbolized by the man holding a pitcher of water. Gotcha.
Mathew 28*20.. and surely i am with you always, until the very end of the age
Mathew 12*32.. the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come
Mathew 13*39.. the harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels. as the weeds are pulled up and burned in the first, so it will be at the end of the age
Yes, the end of the age. That is what were talking about here. The end of the pisces age. The last days, of the pisces age.
Mark 10*29.. and in the age to come, eternal life
Luke 18*30.. the kingdom of god will fail to receieve many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life.
Corithians 6.. we speak a message of the wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age.
Revalations 15*3.. god almighty, king of the ages.
What were talking about here is ages. The old age of pisces, and what were looking forward to is the kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth, and that kingdom is the kingdom of the man with the pitcher of water(luke22*10), the new age of aquarious. when you hear Christians talking about the end of days, the end times, what it really means is the end of the age of pisces, and the begining of the age of aquarious.
So where does Jesus, Chrishna, Horus, or any of the other 16 "saviors" fit into this? They represent the sun, the sun in the sky that comes up every morning and sets every evening(hmm perhaps that is why Amen Ra's enemy was Set). The ancient Egyptians believed that as long as the sun came up every day, there would always be life on earth. Therefore the sun represented eternal life. so quite logically, all religions feeature the sun as its principle and most important feature. Or as the religions say, the "son" of god.
The Egyptians saw that on their sun dials, in winter(winter represented the coldness of death) as the dial moved south, it reached a point in its movement at the time of sunset, and did not move further for 3 days. Therefore the ancients said the sun of god dies for three days. It was said that the son of god dies for 3 days, and is ressurected after those 3 days, once the sun begins its anual journey back to the northern hemisphere. This anual date is December 25. Therefore, it is said that the son of god is born on this date. These ancients believed that the sun was everlasting life, for it supported life on earth. As long as the son had risen, there will always be light and life. All earth life systems require the sun for life, use the suns energy, and therefore they said the sun was giving up its life for us. Of course, not in the literal sense, but sure enough it was translated that way. Do you ever wonder why the sun is in so many religious pictures, espeically those of Jesus?
In revalations 1*7, it says "behold he cometh with clouds, and every eye should see him." Well of course. There is only one light of the world that every eye can see. The sun.
Jesus walked on water. Well have you ever seen the sunset on a body of water? Seems like it is "walking" on it, doesn't it?
Jesus died with a crown of thorns. These thorns actually represent the sun's rays.
Christ will rise. Christ has risen. Christ will rise again. We all hear that in church. But how strange, isn't that what the sun does?
The sun orbits throughout all of the constilations. When the sun enters a constilation, it enters it at the 30th degree. When the sun leaves that constilation, it leaves at the 33rd degree. This is just simple science. But doesn't it sound familiar? How about, god's son begins his ministry at 30 years old, and dies at 33?
Lets discuss the cross. Many crosses are displayed having a circle in the center. The circle is on the cross of the zodiac, and represents the sun, the sun that comes up every day. Over the ages man referred to this as the sun of god, and then it became the son of god.
The ancient cultures of the world started their calanders in virgo, which is symbolized by the virgin. Therefore, they said the son of god was born of a virgin. Which simply means, born in virgo.
We are told by Chrisitianity that Astrology is evil, and of the devil. Any institution of authority that does not want you to look at somthing, whether it be a set of facts, or a book, must have somthing to hide. They know the intillectual mind of the human cannot grow if it is not allowed to look at all of the facts. It is quite obvious here that they in fact did have somthing to hide.
The Bible holds many Pagan beliefs, and is believed by many to be just that. You can find Paganism in most religions, because certain things were borrowed and adapted.
The Summarian Bible/Texts, are more than 400,000 years old and the story is very similar to that of Jesus Christ, and the Bible is said to have used and borrowed many of things that were written already.
Some even believe the world is in a continuous cycle of 400,000 years, 2,000 years, and 3600 years.
Meaning we are not overdue but the world is said to enter a new cycle soon. (Could be a new messiah?, The Last Days on Earth?, ETC)
And that points to the year 2012 which many other beliefs point to as well.
Yes, the Bible is Christian, but Christianity is not the Bible.
Then what is Christianity? I know a PhD in biblical studies who is Christian and is head over heals for the bible. What do you mean by .. christianity is not the bible. Christianity is simply a compilation of ancient beliefs accompanied by poor story telling. And this garbage is what Christians beleive.
Christianity is the belief in the holiness of Jesus, really. You don't need to follow all the other crap in the Bible to be Christian. I would describe myself as Christian, but I've only ever read the Bible once and it was just a confusing mess of stories. Why? Because it's like a book with every second page ripped out of it. I imagine that the scripture was less nonsensical before Constantine and King James got their hands on it.
Quote from: Doringo on January 07, 2007, 06:37:18
Christianity is the belief in the holiness of Jesus, really.
Uhm.... thats not Christianity.... if it would be, we'd be praying to Jesus instead of God :wink:
Its better to believe in Jesus the way Muslims do.... or the way Gnostics do.
Unfortunetly, Jesus Christ has been created into a Idol, and many do pray to him.
Fearing their words would not reach God enless they are through Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is not nesscarly a man to worship, he is a man to follow.
So I am not misunderstood, by a man to follow I mean to take a look at your own life,
and learn how to live it righteously.
His story, regardless if you believe it is true or not.
It's a story of Moral, and thats the point of the Bible.
I never said Christ was a deity, just a person to be respected. Of course, to believe in his divine origin, messenger of God and all that, you have to believe in God too.
But you don't necessarily have to agree with some guy saying that you should kill witches, for instance.
Sounds like the differences between the first "christian" sects to emerge - the Gnostic christians - who believed in the spirit of the teachings (or the teachings of the spirit - works both ways), and the Literalist christians, who took the writings of the time as being literal meanings instead of metaphors of spiritual guidance.
Mind you, both sects started some hundred plus years after Jesus' death, and people in those areas didn't tend to write things down much.
What we actually know as "Christianity" today is actually neither of those, though it is based on the Literalist interpretations which were politically the most favoured at the time. Emperor Constantine started Christianity as we know it today with the foundation of the first true christian church - the Church of Rome, which after the reformation in the 1500's became known as the Roman Catholic church. The word "Catholic" is from the Latin "catholicus" and literally translates as "universally accepted".
So I can accept that a christian does not need to be someone who attends church, but rather follows the teachings of Christ.
The conundrum here is that the only teachings of Jesus that we have are the product of Emperor Constantine's compilation of the bible, and what he and the Council of Nicaea decided were fit to be the teachings of Jesus.
This is why I prefer to stay away from the teachings of religions and instead meditate and go directly to the source of infinite wisdom that each and every one of us has within us 24/7.
Blessings,
James.
(The Bible story of Jesus is a contradictory and confusing account. The Bible shows that this Jesus fellow spoke and taught many absurd and foolish things, and often believed he was having a conversation with devils. If one will read the entire Bible, one will find tales of ignorance, murder, sexual perversions, mass insanity, idiotic laws, and even cannibalism and human sacrifice. It staggers the imagination how anyone in his right mind could read the Bible and believe that it was written by a wise, just, and loving god. Christians have found biblical scriptures telling them to burn people at the stake, to justify slavery, to oppress and persecute others, and to kill and commit war in the name of their god. Unfortunately, there are some even today who would have us return to the teachings and laws found in the Bible.)
Hi everybody. I rarely have time to get on the net these days but once in a while I do get to check my mail and peek at any new threads posted. Mostly I prefer to let people rant if they attack Christianity, as I accept the fact that we are not all at the same place in life and our different approaches to life, faith and beliefs vary according to who we are, what we have been taught, and what we have experienced in life. I did however read the post above and would like to comment. It is not my intent to get into any heated arguments so just take the comment for whet it is worth. It's just my 2 cents.
I read the entire post and though I agree with parts of it, it is too long to answer, it is simply too much work to research. I can however assure you that it is a very biased interpretation and not entirely correct. Basically it is a barrage of information that would take several weeks to verify or debunk. Posts like this serve their purpose, they affect people, but they are not fair and certainly do not serve the greater good i.e. that of finding the truth.
The manner and style is intimidating and insulting to say the least, and I do not foresee many Christians, be they PhD or otherwise wanting to answer it. Maybe that is what was intended!!. It is very obvious that the author is convinced that Christians (all) are a pitiful group of individuals, mindless idiots who hide in horror from the TRUTH (as he sees it), but this is so very wrong. We do not. However, we keep the faith, for as the Bible says "the preaching of the cross is to (unbelievers) foolishness but to us that are saved it is the power of God".
Those of us who believe in Christ do not need acceptance by folks like the author here, we are quite content to live our lives by the recipe of what we see written. It is true that a lot of wars have been fought in the name of Christ but so what. Those who fight wars need excuses and just because they pick Christianity as their "excuse" they do not become the spokesmen for Christianity. Unjust wars are just that... unjust wars.
Beware that you do not tear down something you do not understand and hurt people who have done you no harm my friend. The Bible (New Testament) and the account of Jesus is a testament to LOVE, and much good has been done following its teaching as well. If you are going to present a factual picture you should not forget that. If you are bent on venting your own frustrations however go ahead, you seem to be doing it with a vengeance and your irony sarcasm and name calling speaks for itself. What you fling out into the universe will return to you, if it is love you will reap love, if it is degradation and hate you will reap the same.
If you do not believe, it is your choice, and I support you in that decision, but if I choose to believe give me the freedom to do so, without attacking me and maligning me, with said slurs and biased observation.
Regards Mustardseed
My intention is certainly not to hurt anyone. My only intention is to expose the truth to those who are blind to it. I have no problem with Christians. I have no problem with anyone of any religion. I agree that religions promote love and good morals. However, they have bad aspects to them along with the good aspects. For example, relgion has caused more deaths to humans than any other force on earth. Religions instill fear in innocent people, causing them to be afraid of doing or saying somthing that goes against their religion for fear of eternal punishment. They present people with an idea that what they say is the truth and nothing but the truth, and it is a sin to explore futher. Therefore, people are not able to raise their awareness, their consciousness is not able to expand and they are stuck in a state of false love and fear.
Quote from: outofbodydude on January 12, 2007, 17:48:00
My intention is certainly not to hurt anyone. My only intention is to expose the truth to those who are blind to it. I have no problem with Christians. I have no problem with anyone of any religion. I agree that religions promote love and good morals. However, they have bad aspects to them along with the good aspects. For example, relgion has caused more deaths to humans than any other force on earth. Religions instill fear in innocent people, causing them to be afraid of doing or saying somthing that goes against their religion for fear of eternal punishment. They present people with an idea that what they say is the truth and nothing but the truth, and it is a sin to explore futher. Therefore, people are not able to raise their awareness, their consciousness is not able to expand and they are stuck in a state of false love and fear.
Well that might be your motive and I do applaud you for it however remember that the truth is subjective. You yourself consider, what you "know" to be "the truth" but it is infact only your opinion and research. Many of the claims you make are based on your own experiences and nothing ultimate. I am sure that you yourself would strongly resent being approached on the street and barraged with the "truth" as the fundamentalists see it. Their claims would be offensive to you. Am I right?. Muslims as well as just about every religious person on the planet, have their opinion of what the "truth" is. In my opinion such barrages is inconsistent with the goal of the AP, or even free speech, freedom of religion or what have you. It is a covert attempt to proselyte, something that would not be accepted if it was written by a Christian. The entire AP is infact to many, not only Christians, but countless others, a lie and inconsistent with their experiences and research. If you do insist on such a style I would suggest you post it on one of the many Christian apologist sites and start discussing it with folks who make it their "fight" to discuss and argue such matters. Posting it here in a forum of like minded, (that is folks who would tend to agree with you), only further cements you in your opinion and therefore will not aid you in actually examining your claims.
Christianity is not revealed as a myth by your post. Your claims are merely a footnote, a thought, and a .......claim. It is a theory and not conclusive. Now keep in mind that I do not fault you for having this belief, we all subscribe to beliefsystems, and part of believing in something includes disbelieving something too. What I do bring to your attention is your style. Namecalling slights and the like never convinced anyone, for as you will see later in your life, you can bring a horse to water but not force him to drink, and a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
All the best to you in your life
Regards Mustardseed
Jesus isn't a myth :P I believe Jesus received gods true Word and he taught mankind but JESUS IS NOT GOD NOR IS HE THE SON OF GOD. He is simply a teacher, whom teaches the way to live life accordingly to mankind and the decent of Jesus was mercy upon mankind. History shows us that the word in which Jesus preached has been changed and altered through ought time forming the modern version of Christianity. Muhammad received the final revelation from God forming the last religion. a religion uniting humanity to submit themselves to ONE God worthy of worship. A religion which unites humanity to view each other as brothers and sisters. This rendition of the story of Jesus is indeed compatible with history.
Quote from: Jeehad on February 02, 2007, 18:08:31
Jesus isn't a myth :P I believe Jesus received gods true Word and he taught mankind but JESUS IS NOT GOD NOR IS HE THE SON OF GOD. He is simply a teacher, whom teaches the way to live life accordingly to mankind and the decent of Jesus was mercy upon mankind. History shows us that the word in which Jesus preached has been changed and altered through ought time forming the modern version of Christianity. Muhammad received the final revelation from God forming the last religion. a religion uniting humanity to submit themselves to ONE God worthy of worship. A religion which unites humanity to view each other as brothers and sisters. This rendition of the story of Jesus is indeed compatible with history.
Dear Jeehad
I have debated this issue with you from a few angles, yet it seems that you have chosen to believe what you have been taught, rather than actually investigating these claims by yourself. I do not fault you for this. It is s scary thing to find ones beliefsystem rattled, and many chose to hide their head in a pile of sand as the proverbial ostrich rather than accept views and facts foreign to them. I myself have had a very rough ride from fundamentalist Christian to a believing Christian.
What it comes down to is this. As humans we seem to be hardwired to certain beliefs and those of us who have integrity and who seek the truth chose to often stand up for these beliefs and challenge those who believe otherwise. Often we quote various catch phrases and teachings, only to find out that others dismiss these at the drop of a hat. This only gets our blood boiling and without actually looking further in facts and researching these alternate claims we only start talking louder. It is understandable.
However if you would bother researching your claims as seen by those who disbelieve them, actively looking for the truth with an open mind, you will be very surprised.
Life is changing all around you Jeehad and the teachers you trust may not have at their disposal the vast knowledge that is currently being assembled on the internet. Experts in every field of science scholars in every area are making their research available to everyone and what was previously, only a decade ago, not accessable to the public is indeed being posted on the net.
In the light of this I challenge you to research the claims of your opponents, rather than solidifying yourself in a previously held beliefsystem. Seek for the truth and you will find it. Thats all.
As for myself I believe in Jesus........I cannot explain why. I believe that He is real and very present yet I have come to conclude it is my FAITH and is not provable. It could have happened the way it is written and that is enough for me. We are dealing with spiritual truths here and not an exact science. This is why I reiterate that you have a belief and I also have a belief. The moment we force our beliefs on others either through manipulation (fear remorse etc) or through violence, we have strayed from the path.
I am sure you can agree that whatever our different views God has to be LOVE, he is allknowing and all seeing omnipresent and full of mercy. The creator if you will, logically cannot hate and despise his own creation. If we can agree on this I will be satisfied. If you disagree please tell me what you think God will do to those who disbelieve in the KORAN or the BIBLE. Will he destroy them? If so why not destroy them now. What do you think? It appears that Jeehad,( the small Jeehad ) advocates this view, so where does that put you.
Regards Mustardseed
Check these as well as the thousands of others
http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html
http://debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html
Dear MustardSeed. I have read EVERY SINGLE contradicting claims to the holy Quran. I have SPOKEN TO MANY PASTORS whom try to debunk Islamic views or angles of look at things and let me tell you EVERY SINGLE contradiction is simply a manner of misunderstandings. Do not tell me I am rattled because of what I believe or have not seen "truth." I can assure you I've studies such matters, ive studied religions and such things as spiritual or agnostic beliefs of other people and let me tell you my dear dear brother Islam stands the most logical way of living life. EVERYTHING in which the Holy Quran says is compatible with science, and your so called "contradictions"(which you need other websites or articles to debunk ^.- are simply misunderstanding). I can take one word of what you have said and imply hat it is your main central point of your entier posts which is what the people whom create these contradictions do. The point is, Allah sbwt is telling you a story in the Quran, one which you may learn about and you cannot conclude that a verse is a contradiction or error without eeadin the entire chapter to fully understand something.In arabic grammer awe also have words which have various meanings. We can tell what the meaning is by seeing other verses which use the same meaning and see if it seems logical(also we can check some of the authentic hadiths to explain the meaning of the verses). In retrospect, the people whom create these contradictions DONT take these things into account. Believe me my brother, EVERY SINGLE SO CALLED ERROR is a misunderstanding, and even many other religious people conclude that the Quran is indeed a perfect revelation without any error. Please, find me one error which CANNOT BE EXPLAINED? You cannot and this challenge I proposed to you is a challenge Allah sbwt proposes to humanity. God is love God is mercy God is compassion God is the creator God is the just God is the most wise. In islam, we have something known as the 99 names of God which explain the almighty creators attributes. LOVE is a name of his attributes MERCY is a name of his attributes and even a name for Allah sbwt which we call upon to express our love to him. Read the intelligent design theory which was released by scientists a couple of years ago. The theory itself states many differnt angles stating THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR LIFE TO HAVE BEEN CREATED WITHOUT AN INTELLIGENT DESIGN TO HAVE INTERVENED IN IT. Allah sbwt says in the holy Quran that he is the originator of the heavens and earth, he also says " Verily we have split the universe asunder and bound it together" he then says "Then he made the universe into a mas of smoke" then he says "Oh mankind it is we who have constructed the universe with might and surely we are steadily expanding it"
Summarizing the most accepted theory for the universe coming into existence, it states that the universe was first a sum of quarks and particles which were colliding with one another releasing bounds of energy these particles formed different masses of matter everywhere, eventually a force(we now know as gravity) bound all these masses together into one MASSIVE MASS known as the universe, scientists say that this mass was simply a mass of dust and smoke billions of years of expansion and collection of these smoke particles through gravity formed planets and stars forming what we now know as the "universe." Can you not see the Quran CLEARLY states this? Allah sbwt SHOWS YOU how he created life in stages. Also, one thing you must understand is if God said in the Quran THE UNIVERSE WAS THE SHAPE OF A DUCK, do you think scientists nowadays will believe in it? Now put yourself in the shoes of people thousands of years ago whom first heard the quran, if allah clearly goes out telling people in depthly about creation the typical arab man would not agree with it because there own "scientific" beliefs are contrary to what the Quran will say even though thousands of years later the quran will be proven.
Now that I explained God is indeed real! I will tell you about the mercy of Allah sbwt :) you see my brother, for me to tell you everyone who disbelieves in the holy Quran is going to hell or YOUR GOING TO HELL is ABSOLUTELY against my own religion. Allah sbwt tells us that it is he who judges mankind NOT MAN WHO JUDGES MAN. God judges man by his intentions and the depths of mans hearts. I don't see why you disagree with Islamic justice... I mean, don't you think raping is terrible? Or murder is terrible? giving poor is the way of the pious man? Helping another brother or sister is something which we all need to perform? Uniting together? Spreading peace and harmony? Allah sbwt says in the Quran "He has created you in groups so you may learn to live among eachother" also, speaking about other peoples beliefs he says " Come to common grounds with them" THE BEST WAY TO UNITE people of other beliefs it simply to come to common grounds with them show similarities of one another.
The mercy if allah:
"Whoever is not merciful towards people, will not be treated mercifully by Allah."
"...And My mercy embraces all things..."
"And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all as a favor and kindness from Him."
"...Those who repent and believe, and do righteous deeds, for those, Allah will change their sins into good deeds..."
Allahs mercy is witness to his own glorification. In fact Allah sbwt punishes those who are unjust and disbelieve in him. My brother, This life was created as a test for humanity, for us to learn from. Allah sbwt created sin in order for man to learn from his sin and turn to his path and this is a natural part of our creation. We have all had those moments of reality where your real to yourself and those who perform horrific sins encounter these realities about themselves. I mean the alcoholic eventually digs himself a hole which is a sign from allah sbwt showing the alcoholic the effects of alcohol and in retrospect helping him turn to his path. I have come here to deliver the message to you and it is your choice to accept and reject it but only Allah knows what is my path in the hereafter and what is yours :) I hope I helped explain your questions. If you accept Allah as ONE GOD, if you love humanity, if you give to the poor,respect your brothers and sisters, then my brother you are a one who submitts himself to the will of allah sbwt(a muslim) this is the entire message of Islm. We don;t ask you to go outside and bomb yourself, or to beat yourself, or to shave your head.. We ask you to simply embrace love for your people and your own lord.
I hope I answered your questions.
Peace and blessings be upon you.
Hi Jeehad
Ok then, we will leave it at this. As I said before a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile. Thats ok with me. A few points comes to mind though that shows me that you have a great disdain for views other than your own. Firstly you seem to put me down for using articles found on the net in my argumentation. Yet you yourself use the very same. Books and exhortations from youtube etc. Much to my surprise you seem to feel that your points are more valid since you have read books and studied the subject. Thats is what the net provides. This is my point exactly. The net is a big place and much information can be found there, it is no longer needed for one to be a scholar in order to debate.
In any case my view is, that one can prove or disprove any subject from global warming to scientific prophesies and doctrines in the Koran, by researching the net. If however one chooses to only use the points in support to ones opinion, instead of researching the opposite point, one is bound to further cement ones belief.
Faith is to me just that..... FAITH. You have mentioned nothing that is not challenged by others, you only choose to believe certain arguments and I choose the opposite. Thats all. Any further discussion is pointless. You may barrage me with further discourses and added arguments only proving to me that your mind is made up . This is then no longer a sincere discussion by 2 seekers of truth, but rather a sort of mental aggression and condescending argument and attitude of one, who sees himself as a teacher, who with his version of the TRUTH, shows of his own superiority. One who thinks that he has read EVERY SINGLE argument who knows all there is to know, is a know-it-all. You nolonger seek truth but you preach what you see as the TRUTH, and we have nothing in common.
Peace to you as well
Regards Mustardseed
Regards Mustardseed
Well I'm going to leave it at that as well but you do realize that theres a difference between simply posting something without an explanation from your own words or at least providing arguments which seem logical rather then posting something which you have no knowledge about because you simply FOUND it on the internet. Your dealing with a subject which you have proven to me to be beyond your limit of knowledge which is why you have absolutely no right to tell me to reconcile my opinions. Just because they disagree with yours does not mean that I am "confused" or mislead because I can assure you otherwise. You denied the claims I make which gives me a right to respond.
Thanks anyways.
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 05, 2007, 12:45:30
Hi Jeehad
Ok then, we will leave it at this. As I said before a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile.
Are you not even listening to him? It's like you telling Stephen Hawking that he doesn't know about black holes, when
he obviously does. Stop avoiding the points he is making in the hope of saving face over an internet forum where you don't even know him.
QuoteThats ok with me. A few points comes to mind though that shows me that you have a great disdain for views other than your own. Firstly you seem to put me down for using articles found on the net in my argumentation.
Because he says he has seen all those articles, and he has debunked them. Present him with something
worthy of reading and I
guarantee he will not shun it like some mindless zealot you make him out to be.
QuoteYet you yourself use the very same. Books and exhortations from youtube etc.
Because the things he is getting off of the internet
have not been debunked as of now. And as far as we know are valid for his arguments.
QuoteMuch to my surprise you seem to feel that your points are more valid since you have read books and studied the subject.
If someone knows more about a subject, I think I would rather trust their opinion than someone who knows next to nothing.
QuoteThats is what the net provides. This is my point exactly. The net is a big place and much information can be found there, it is no longer needed for one to be a scholar in order to debate.
All of the information on the net is not true, as you seem to make it out as being.
QuoteIn any case my view is, that one can prove or disprove any subject from global warming to scientific prophesies and doctrines in the Koran, by researching the net.
Actually, it depends on how gullible you are.
Quote
If however one chooses to only use the points in support to ones opinion, instead of researching the opposite point, one is bound to further cement ones belief.
That's true... but why did you add it into your paragraph? It had nothing to do with Jeehad's views.
Quote
Faith is to me just that..... FAITH.
Faith to you seems to be ignorance, not truly faith. When a scientist forms a hypothesis, he has faith that he will be correct. He has something he is basing it upon, rather than just a "feeling". If I choose to be illogical and irrational due to the concept that my views are right because it has been pounded into me as a child, then I don't have faith. I'm just stupid.
Hi Goober
:-D Thanks for the suggestions but I will pass at that one. My aim was not to change this mans faith, and have no desire to win anything. My desire and intent was to draw to his attention to the fact, that for every claim he makes some learned person outthere has made a counterclaim. If he really want to investigate these claims, all he has to do is google it. This is to me no clever debating forum where the one who spends the most time on the subject at hand, and uses the quickest responces best wit etc wins the debate.
I stated that FAITH is just that FAITH. It is Jeehads belief that he can PROVE the existence of God, and the prophetic nature of Muhammad THROUGH SCIENCE. A claim that is often made throughout the Islamic world. This is one of the most widely used phrases and appeals immensely to the illiterate and poorly educated millions of Muslims. It is a very powerfull claim, yet it does not stand up to scrutiny in a modern western world. Take fx the Surah 36:36 about being made in pairs. I have sat in conversion with Mullahs from a small village in Pakistan, who made this very same claim. When confronted with the counterclaim they refused to believe that there was any such thing as a hermaphrodite, sticking to their story that "everything is made in pairs" . These people speak for the masses of Muslims, and preach every Friday in the Mosque that Islam is a Scientific faith. This puts Muslims in the west in a very odd situation. In order to PROVE their point they then have to get so complicated and use the most ridiculous far flung scientific theories, and when they get real desperate they say somethink like this........
(Jeehad)
There might be other explanations to this verse that we still have not thought about, or don't know about yet. Our knowledge today will not be similar to the knowledge we will have in the future. Of course, scientists, including physicists, are still doing a lot of research, and in the future, God willing, this verse will be fully explained in the light of our then newly acquired knowledge. ............................. So, it could possibly take another 100 years, 1400 years, or maybe more, before this verse is fully understood.
end quote
This is to me obviously choosing to BELIEVE, it is an obvious display of a very clear intent to stay BELIEVING hoping that if things are not proved now they WILL BE someday in the future.
In my opinion it is clear that those who wrote the Koran did indeed believe that everything was made in pairs, this is in the Bible as well. The far flung explanations is in my opinion only "cutting a toe or heel to make the shoe fit". However, as I said before since he chooses to stay firm on his FAITH I will rest my case. I do not think he is openminded nor that he will read and research with the TRUTH in mind but rather that he will Choose to read what supports his preconceived opinion. Thats all. In any case ....no harm done, and no problem with me. He is not alone in this millions of Christians and Muslims do the same. Those who can see through this, will do so and those who chose to agree with him will do so as well.
Regards Mustardseed
Mustardseed:
thanx for you posts you have change my way of which i deal with people where things such as religion is at hand. i have seen my error - and i know that i was wrong the times i pressed my 'truth' onto each them 'blind' people.
i must applaud you :)
even if i don't share the same believes you seem to have more levels than me in live in certian areas :P
peace and love
RJT
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 06, 2007, 10:55:49
Hi Goober
:-D Thanks for the suggestions but I will pass at that one. My aim was not to change this mans faith, and have no desire to win anything. My desire and intent was to draw to his attention to the fact, that for every claim he makes some learned person outthere has made a counterclaim. If he really want to investigate these claims, all he has to do is google it. This is to me no clever debating forum where the one who spends the most time on the subject at hand, and uses the quickest responces best wit etc wins the debate.
I stated that FAITH is just that FAITH. It is Jeehads belief that he can PROVE the existence of God, and the prophetic nature of Muhammad THROUGH SCIENCE. A claim that is often made throughout the Islamic world. This is one of the most widely used phrases and appeals immensely to the illiterate and poorly educated millions of Muslims. It is a very powerfull claim, yet it does not stand up to scrutiny in a modern western world. Take fx the Surah 36:36 about being made in pairs. I have sat in conversion with Mullahs from a small village in Pakistan, who made this very same claim. When confronted with the counterclaim they refused to believe that there was any such thing as a hermaphrodite, sticking to their story that "everything is made in pairs" . These people speak for the masses of Muslims, and preach every Friday in the Mosque that Islam is a Scientific faith. This puts Muslims in the west in a very odd situation. In order to PROVE their point they then have to get so complicated and use the most ridiculous far flung scientific theories, and when they get real desperate they say somethink like this........
(Jeehad)
There might be other explanations to this verse that we still have not thought about, or don't know about yet. Our knowledge today will not be similar to the knowledge we will have in the future. Of course, scientists, including physicists, are still doing a lot of research, and in the future, God willing, this verse will be fully explained in the light of our then newly acquired knowledge. ............................. So, it could possibly take another 100 years, 1400 years, or maybe more, before this verse is fully understood.
end quote
This is to me obviously choosing to BELIEVE, it is an obvious display of a very clear intent to stay BELIEVING hoping that if things are not proved now they WILL BE someday in the future.
In my opinion it is clear that those who wrote the Koran did indeed believe that everything was made in pairs, this is in the Bible as well. The far flung explanations is in my opinion only "cutting a toe or heel to make the shoe fit". However, as I said before since he chooses to stay firm on his FAITH I will rest my case. I do not think he is openminded nor that he will read and research with the TRUTH in mind but rather that he will Choose to read what supports his preconceived opinion. Thats all. In any case ....no harm done, and no problem with me. He is not alone in this millions of Christians and Muslims do the same. Those who can see through this, will do so and those who chose to agree with him will do so as well.
Regards Mustardseed
Salam ou alakoum, First of all you say that learned people have made counter claims about my verses which I have procided, but the fact is that ONLY YOU ARE THE ONE who is simply posting "cunter claims" which I epxlain to you justily. Why can't you respond after I explain a verse which you claim is a contradiction? the only reason which seems to be plausable is you HAVE no knowledge upon the matter thus you leave it up to the google search to try and contradict the Quran. First of all, you ask me to proev Islam to you but show me where your proof lies that astral projectione ven exists(I do believe in it)? Or prove to me that your faith is true? Faith alone is blidn that is why along with faith comes logic and this si the true essence of belief. You canot believe something which is illogical. Secondly, the verse stating that we were all made in pairs is something which you haev confused yourself about. God is stressing an important point that EVERYTHING IS MADE IN PAIRS not ALL LIVING THINGS but EVERY particle IN THIS UNIVEIRSE IS MADE WITH A PAIR. Dealing qith quantum emchanics and looking at the pair structure of an atom you will notice that indeed this is a true statement. You fail to realise an important point, these sceitnifical verses taken from the Quran were NOT TAKEN ONE DAY FROM A "MULLA" as you call it. But actual SCIENTISTS mostly non muslims have actually analyzed these verses have written reports on them. You can say Oh its just taking the verse out of context or even a coincidence but lets be real here, the Quran withholds THOUSANDS of verses which can be proven scietnifically? Are they really all a coincidence? Are they all taken otu fo context?
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honoured by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."
"For the past three years, I have worked with the Embryology Committee of King cAbdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, helping them to interpret the many statements in the Qur'an and Sunnah referring to human reproduction and prenatal development. At first I was astonished by the accuracy of the statements that were recorded in the 7th century AD, before the science of embryology was established. Although I was aware of the glorious history of Muslim scientists in the 10th century AD, and some of their contributions to Medicine, I knew nothing about the religious facts and beliefs contained in the Qur'an and Sunnah."[2]
"It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Qur'an about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because most of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been a messenger of God, or Allah." [1]
"...Because the staging of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Qur'an and Sunnah. The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge.
"The intensive studies of the Qur'an and Hadith in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the seventh century A.D... the descriptions in the Qur'an cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the seventh century..."[1]
uthor of over 200 publications. Former President of the Teratology Society among other accomplishments. Professor Johnson began to take an interest in the scientific signs in the Qur'an at the 7th Saudi Medical Conference (1982), when a special committee was formed to investigate scientific signs in the Qur'an and Hadith. At first, Professor Johnson refused to accept the existence of such verses in the Qur'an and Hadith. But after a dicussuion with Sheikh Zindani he took an interest and concentrated his research on the internal as well as external development of the fetus.
"...in summary, the Qur'an describes not only the development of external form, but emphasises also the internal stages, the stages inside the embryo, of its creation and development, emphasising major events recognised by contemporary science."
"As a scientist, I can only deal with things which I can specifically see. I can understand embryology and developmental biology. I can understand the words that are translated to me from the Qur'an. As I gave the example before, if I were to transpose myself into that era, knowing what I do today and describing things, I could not describe the things that were described...
I see no evidence to refute the concept that this individual Muhammad had to be developing this information from some place... so I see nothing here in conflict with the concept that divine intervention was involved in what he was able to write..." [1]
Professor Kroner is one of the world's most famous geologists, becoming well known among his colleague scientists for his criticisms against the theories of some of the major scientists in his field. Sheikh cAbdul-Majeed A. Zindani met with him and presented several Qur'anic verses and Hadith which he studied and commented upon.
Thinking where Muhammad came from... I think it is almost impossible that he could have known about things like the common origin of the universe, because scientists have only found out within the last few years with very complicated and advanced technological methods that this is the case."
"Somebody who did not know something about nuclear physics 1400 years ago could not, I think, be in a position to find out from his own mind for instance that the earth and the heavens had the same origin, or many others of the questions that we have discussed here...
If you combine all these and you combine all these statements that are being made in the Qur'an in terms that relate to the earth and the formation of the earth and science in general, you can basically say that statements made there in many ways are true, they can now be confirmed by scientific methods, and in a way, you can say that the Qur'an is a simple science text book for the simple man. And that many of the statements made in there at that time could not be proven, but that modern scientific methods are now in a position to prove what Muhammad said 1400 years ago." [1]
Its the fact that the Quran is aknowledged by scientists worldwide for describing scientific incidences which is phenomenal. You are such a hypocrit mustardseed, you claim that I am blind and that I along with many
other do not understand my own religion. Mustardseed PLEASE, I am very learned In Islam do not dictate my own religion and language to me.
Mustardseed
"a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. It seems evident that you are convinced of your point and that makes further debate futile"
Oh so you are nto convinced of your own will? So you believe in nothing? Can't you see the hypocricy in your statements..
Mustardseed
"You have mentioned nothing that is not challenged by others, you only choose to believe certain arguments and I choose the opposite."
When you say "challenged by others" that gives me the same right to say well yeh Islam is agreed upon by billions of people so thats why you should revert. Its also dischalenged by others as well, its funny how YOU yourself cant challenge any of these verses or even respond to a explanation I have posted.
My dear Jeehad
Well I am very sorry that you seem to get so upset. I stated my point and will leave it at that. For your information I do believe in the Bible, and tho I cannot prove it as being the Truth of God, and tho it does seem to at times be very illogical, I still BELIEVE in it and do not see that as a problem.
As for using Goggle to research matters, this is something I have never hidden, on the contrary I stated very openly this very fact as a support of my claim, regarding the availability of knowledge on the subject at hand. You however state that your knowledge comes from some other source and call me a hypocrite. Well I was wondering about that and blocked out the following paregraph from your post
This paragraph is not indicated to be a quote but seem to be your words and your superior knowledge as a learned scholar. After blocking out the text below I pasted it into Goggle and below it you can see what I found. It appears that you yourself use sources from the net to bolster your claims.....gotcha 8-)
Here is what I blocked out
Dr. Moore was a former President of the Canadian Association of Anatomists, and of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists. He was honored by the Canadian Association of Anatomists with the prestigious J.C.B. Grant Award and in 1994 he received the Honoured Member Award of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists "for outstanding contributions to the field of clinical anatomy."
This is what came up
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2005-44,GGLR:en&q=Dr%2e+Moore+was+a+former+President+of+the+Canadian+Association+of+Anatomists%2c+and+of+the+American+Association+of+Clinical+Anatomists%2e+He+was+honoured+by+the+Canadian+Association+of+Anatomists+with+the+prestigious+J%2eC%2eB%2e+Grant+Award+and+in+1994+he+received+the+Honoured+Member+Award+of+the+American+Association+of+Clinical+Anatomists++%22for+outstanding+contributions+to+the+field+of+clinical+anatomy%2e%22
Anyway it seems that our conversation is escalating into agression, and that you are very close to boiling point.....sorry about that. You yourself seem to either be very young or rather naive , but what the heck, I am no Einstein either. :-D
There is a lot of stuf out there isn't there, enough that the most ignorant can appear smart, and the fanatic can appear very balanced, it is all just words Jeehad and as my tag says "Words....there was a time I believed in words".
Regards Mustardseed
PS I never claimed to have proof that OBEs are "real" I dont know where you got that one.
My dear msutardseed I have nothing agsint doign research on google. What I am accusing you of is simply posting something without your own consent ot explanation. You will notice I provide my own writings with proof from the internet to back up my claims. Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it. MustardSeed, I believe that the bible was a step unto the formation of the Holy Quran. JEsus preached a message known as the injeel(good news) which we as muslims MUST BELIEVE.Although, history prooevs to us that the bible has been chanegd and altered. The Quran comes down asa revelation from God almighty to seal all the religions.The final conclusion unto mankind. Uniting humanity to worship One true God, the God of abraham. Regarding man as equal beings(including the prophets). Islam is the total submission of ones will to the almighty lord. I was also using an OBE as an example of "proof" for everyone else I never claimed your belief in it. Words are the essence of communication, and the only form of preservation. Take a look at this video of a Quranic reciation;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ivk7NoXxUA
You will find 5 scientifical and predicting verses in this chapter. The whole point of the chapter is to prove Gods existence; God is giving you a point and saying how could you deny me now?As if hes trying to proev something. Isn't it significant that 5 verses in this chapter all are documented by scientists? All in a chapter which was meant to prove a point to humanity? This chapter holds the most scientifical and predicting verses in the Holy quran ^.-
Quote from: Jeehad on February 06, 2007, 20:10:17
My dear msutardseed I have nothing agsint doign research on google. What I am accusing you of is simply posting something without your own consent ot explanation. You will notice I provide my own writings with proof from the internet to back up my claims. Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it. MustardSeed, I believe that the bible was a step unto the formation of the Holy Quran. JEsus preached a message known as the injeel(good news) which we as muslims MUST BELIEVE.Although, history prooevs to us that the bible has been chanegd and altered. The Quran comes down asa revelation from God almighty to seal all the religions.The final conclusion unto mankind. Uniting humanity to worship One true God, the God of abraham. Regarding man as equal beings(including the prophets). Islam is the total submission of ones will to the almighty lord. I was also using an OBE as an example of "proof" for everyone else I never claimed your belief in it. Words are the essence of communication, and the only form of preservation. Take a look at this video of a Quranic reciation;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ivk7NoXxUA
You will find 5 scientifical and predicting verses in this chapter. The whole point of the chapter is to prove Gods existence; God is giving you a point and saying how could you deny me now?As if hes trying to proev something. Isn't it significant that 5 verses in this chapter all are documented by scientists? All in a chapter which was meant to prove a point to humanity? This chapter holds the most scientifical and predicting verses in the Holy quran ^.-
Dear Jeehad
Please do not degrade this to the usual rant and rave kind of discussion. The way you talk about me is not only incorrect but rather rude. As I said I know a lot about the Koran and the teachings of Muhammad. Maybe not as much as you do, but then again I am not from where you are, and have not had the opportunity to be taught as you have. To quote me as having the attitude as you say above ..............
" Theres a difference between; yeh heres the article... which I dont know anything about but yeh here you go and ACTUALLY explaining it or even understanding it,"..............is wrong.
It is also not respectful and as you know respect is a Islamic duty and a trait you should try your best to emulate. In my opinion you are very sincere but sincerely wrong. What is disturbing is this. Folks like you who are brought up the way you are, and who are indoctrinated so effectively, become the very curse of your own cause. In their zealous yet frustrated efforts to "save" the unbelievers and spread their "righteous" cause, they grow increasingly more aggressive. After the big Jeehad the small Jeehad in often quite a logical step.
As far as I see it your religion supports violence as a means of retaliation and aggression against any PRECIEVED threat. Mohamed was a very violent man, and conversion by the sword is a big part of Islam. Osama Bin Laden is actually a very faithful Muslim, and he knows his Koran. Many follow his teachings as they cannot deny their validity and the result is violence and death.
Maybe you will say Bush is doing the same but I think it is evident that Jesus said to his followers, to "Love your enemies do good to them that hate you and pray for them that dispitefully abuse you".
Your link to the Koran recital was pretty silly in my opinion, at least being used in this discussion. It proved nothing and only sways the illiterate uneducated masses in various Muslim countries, with pretty words, causing them to get all wrapped up in this mind-numbing romantisism, that is so typical for that type of discourse. I have sat through plenty.
Regards Mustardseed
PS Do us all and yourself a favour and use the spell check feature. It is evident that you are not a native English speaker, your lack of knowledge of grammar detracts greatly from your posts, and you are not doing yourself a favour.
Regards Mustardseed
Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.
Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."
Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."
2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.
Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."
Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.
Among the most widely believed myths about Islam in the West today is the myth of forcible conversion to Islam.
Many Westerners do believe that Islam is so widespread in the world today simply because of a "holy campaign of terror" carried out by the early Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam. Non-Muslims were offered the freedom to choose either Islam or death.
In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".
How to confront such misconceptions? First, there is no need for us to be apologetic. We Muslims should search for the truth and present it as it is. This is how we have been instructed by Allah (SWT)
"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject" (18:29)
Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth.
"We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended" (17:105)
"Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth" (27:79)
Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous khutbah [friday sermon] that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.
The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?
First and foremost, Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time. Professor Hodgson has explained the reasons for the popularity of Islam as follows:
"Muslims made a personal appeal to people's religious consciousness. On the level of straight argument, they often put forward the populistic intelligibility of Islam. Muslims commonly ridiculed, in the name of intellectual good sense, the more mythically convoluted teachings of older traditions. This could seem attractively straightforward to people dissatisfied with taking things on faith from a learned priest whose mysteries they could not comprehend. A single Creator, to be worshipped by each person for himself, on the basis of revelation that had been given to a famous prophet whom millions already acknolwedged. This was at once intelligible and plausible."
The unambiguous and uncompromising belief in the Unity, the Greatness, the Wisdom of God, the Creator of the universe, is unparalleled among other religions. The French professor Edouard Montet said:
"The dogma of the unity of God...has always been proclaimed in the Qur'an with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of pure conviction which is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."
Besides its simple and rational creed, Islam offers an impressive set of rituals which has gained the admiration and, subsequently, the conversion of many non-Muslims. The second pillar of Islam, Salah [prayer] has been described as follows by Sir Arnold:
"The religion of the Muslim is continuously present with him and, in the daily prayer, manifests itself in a solemn and impressive ritual which cannot leave either the worshipper or the spectator unaffected."
Then Sir Arnold narrated the story of an Egyptian Jew who converted to Islam at the end of the 13th century mainly because of the sight of the Juma'a prayer. Actually, it is not only in the 13th century that people converted to Islam because of the prayers; it just happened a few years ago in Ottawa that a non-Muslim Canadian woman converted to Islam because of Juma'a prayers. She used to go to the Ottawa Mosque on Friday and pray among the sisters for several months. She loved the prayer and eventually she embraced Islam.
In addition to the prayers, the other pillars of Islam, Zakah [alms tax distributed to the poor], Hajj [pilgrimage to Makkah], Siyam [fasting in Ramadan], have always been factors in attracting many hearts to Islam. Up until the present day, one still meets converts who were impressed by the social justice of Islam brilliantly expressed in the payment of Zakah. The genius of Hajj and Siyam has always been a determining factor in the conversion of many people. It is this union of rationalism and ritualism that explains the power that Islam has exercised over the hearts and minds of so many people. Islam simply gives the truth, neat and clear in a visible and tangible form. The neatness and clarity of Islam was presented to human beings in the form of a miraculous book, the Qur'an. The marvellous power and beauty of the words of the Qur'an have always been a decisive factor in conversion to Islam. The famous Jewish American convert to Islam, Maryam Jameelah, cited the Qur'an as the major factor of her conversion. After a deep study of both the Old Testament and the Qur'an, the contrast between the two scriptures became increasingly evident to her until she firmly believed that the Qur'an was indeed God's message to the human race.
A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following:
"Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature."
The formidable rationalism, ritualism and clarity of Islam did not only lead the Christians of the Middle East to forsake Christianity and embrace Islam in the past. It continues to do so with Christinas in the West to the present day. An Australian-born Christain who converted to Islam four months ago and who was studying here with us at Queen's wrote in her story of conversion to Islam:
"Christianity continued to be difficult for me. So much didn't make sense, the trinity, the idea that Jesus was God incarnate, the worship of Mary, the Saints, or jesus, rather than God. The priests told me to leave reason behind".
The she went on to say:
"Could Muhammad really be a messenger? Could the Qur'an be God's word? I kept reading the Qur'an, it told me that Eve wasn't alone to blame for the fall, that Jesus was a messenger, that people would question the authenticity of Muhammad's claim to revelation but that if they tried to write something as wise, consistent and rational they would fail. This seemed true. Islam asked me to use my intelligence to contemplate God, it encouraged me to seek knowledge." Then at the end of her sincere search for the truth she prayed to God saying, "Dear God, I believe in You, I believe in the compelling and majestic words of the Qur'an and I believe in the prophethood of your messenger Muhammad (SAW)."
Another Muslim sister, from California, who was a practising Christian and an active member in her nearby Presbyterian church, wrote in her conversion story that despite her active affiliation with the church, she always had serious questions about the fundamentals of Chrsitianity which did not make sense to her. She debated her questions with her friends but never came up with good answers. The church couldn't give them good answers either, they only told them to "have faith". All her questions were answered when she took a course about Islam. Listen to her own words:
"This class brought back all of the concerns that I had about Christianity. As I learned about Islam, all my questions were answered. All of us are not punished for Adam's original sin. Adam asked God for forgiveness and our merciful, loving God forgave him. God doesn't require a blood sacrifice in payment for sin. We must sincerely ask for forgiveness and amend our ways. Jesus wasn't God, he was a prophet like all of the other prophets. This answered all of my questions about the trinity and the nature of Jesus. I found a teaching that put everything in its proper perspective and appealed to my heart and my intellect. It seemed natural. It wasn't confusing. I had been searching and I had found a place to rest my faith."
My dear brothers and sisters, Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says:
"In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."
Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said:
"The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."
Quote from: Jeehad on February 06, 2007, 22:54:10
Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.
Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."
Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."
2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.
Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."
Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.
Among the most widely believed myths about Islam in the West today is the myth of forcible conversion to Islam.
Many Westerners do believe that Islam is so widespread in the world today simply because of a "holy campaign of terror" carried out by the early Muslims to convert non-Muslims to Islam. Non-Muslims were offered the freedom to choose either Islam or death.
In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".
How to confront such misconceptions? First, there is no need for us to be apologetic. We Muslims should search for the truth and present it as it is. This is how we have been instructed by Allah (SWT)
"Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject" (18:29)
Islam is the religion of the Truth. The Qur'an is the book of the Truth.
"We sent down the Qur'an in Truth and in Truth has it descended" (17:105)
"Put your trust in Allah for you are on the path of the manifest Truth" (27:79)
Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others. In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous khutbah [friday sermon] that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.
The question that remains to be answered is why then so many people have chosen Islam throughout the more than 1400 years of its history. Islam has penetrated the Middle East, North Africa, Spain, West Africa, East Africa, Eastern Europe, Asia Minor, the Caucasus, Central Asia, Afghanistan, India, Western China, and the Malay archipelago. Islam in all these regions replaced so many other well-established religions: Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism and animism. What are the reasons behind the triumph of Islam over all these religions in so many different places at so many different times?
First and foremost, Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time. Professor Hodgson has explained the reasons for the popularity of Islam as follows:
"Muslims made a personal appeal to people's religious consciousness. On the level of straight argument, they often put forward the populistic intelligibility of Islam. Muslims commonly ridiculed, in the name of intellectual good sense, the more mythically convoluted teachings of older traditions. This could seem attractively straightforward to people dissatisfied with taking things on faith from a learned priest whose mysteries they could not comprehend. A single Creator, to be worshipped by each person for himself, on the basis of revelation that had been given to a famous prophet whom millions already acknolwedged. This was at once intelligible and plausible."
The unambiguous and uncompromising belief in the Unity, the Greatness, the Wisdom of God, the Creator of the universe, is unparalleled among other religions. The French professor Edouard Montet said:
"The dogma of the unity of God...has always been proclaimed in the Qur'an with a grandeur, a majesty, an invariable purity and with a note of pure conviction which is hard to find surpassed outside the pale of Islam. A creed so precise, so stripped of all theological complexities and so accessible to the ordinary understanding might be expected to possess and does indeed possess a marvellous power of winning its way into the consciences of men."
Besides its simple and rational creed, Islam offers an impressive set of rituals which has gained the admiration and, subsequently, the conversion of many non-Muslims. The second pillar of Islam, Salah [prayer] has been described as follows by Sir Arnold:
"The religion of the Muslim is continuously present with him and, in the daily prayer, manifests itself in a solemn and impressive ritual which cannot leave either the worshipper or the spectator unaffected."
Then Sir Arnold narrated the story of an Egyptian Jew who converted to Islam at the end of the 13th century mainly because of the sight of the Juma'a prayer. Actually, it is not only in the 13th century that people converted to Islam because of the prayers; it just happened a few years ago in Ottawa that a non-Muslim Canadian woman converted to Islam because of Juma'a prayers. She used to go to the Ottawa Mosque on Friday and pray among the sisters for several months. She loved the prayer and eventually she embraced Islam.
In addition to the prayers, the other pillars of Islam, Zakah [alms tax distributed to the poor], Hajj [pilgrimage to Makkah], Siyam [fasting in Ramadan], have always been factors in attracting many hearts to Islam. Up until the present day, one still meets converts who were impressed by the social justice of Islam brilliantly expressed in the payment of Zakah. The genius of Hajj and Siyam has always been a determining factor in the conversion of many people. It is this union of rationalism and ritualism that explains the power that Islam has exercised over the hearts and minds of so many people. Islam simply gives the truth, neat and clear in a visible and tangible form. The neatness and clarity of Islam was presented to human beings in the form of a miraculous book, the Qur'an. The marvellous power and beauty of the words of the Qur'an have always been a decisive factor in conversion to Islam. The famous Jewish American convert to Islam, Maryam Jameelah, cited the Qur'an as the major factor of her conversion. After a deep study of both the Old Testament and the Qur'an, the contrast between the two scriptures became increasingly evident to her until she firmly believed that the Qur'an was indeed God's message to the human race.
A conference of Christian missionaries in 1887 was discussing why Islam has almost swept away Crhistianity from the Middle East. What did Islam offer these people to forsake Christianity for good? One of the missionaries was insightful enough to say the following:
"Islam brought out the fundamental dogmas of the Unity and Greatness of God, that He is mindful and Righteous. It proclaimed the responsibility of man, a future life, a Day of Judgement and stern retribution to fall upon the wicked, and enforced the duties of prayer, alms-giving and fasting. It replaced monkishness by manliness, it gave hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind and recognition to the fundamental facts of human nature."
The formidable rationalism, ritualism and clarity of Islam did not only lead the Christians of the Middle East to forsake Christianity and embrace Islam in the past. It continues to do so with Christinas in the West to the present day. An Australian-born Christain who converted to Islam four months ago and who was studying here with us at Queen's wrote in her story of conversion to Islam:
"Christianity continued to be difficult for me. So much didn't make sense, the trinity, the idea that Jesus was God incarnate, the worship of Mary, the Saints, or jesus, rather than God. The priests told me to leave reason behind".
The she went on to say:
"Could Muhammad really be a messenger? Could the Qur'an be God's word? I kept reading the Qur'an, it told me that Eve wasn't alone to blame for the fall, that Jesus was a messenger, that people would question the authenticity of Muhammad's claim to revelation but that if they tried to write something as wise, consistent and rational they would fail. This seemed true. Islam asked me to use my intelligence to contemplate God, it encouraged me to seek knowledge." Then at the end of her sincere search for the truth she prayed to God saying, "Dear God, I believe in You, I believe in the compelling and majestic words of the Qur'an and I believe in the prophethood of your messenger Muhammad (SAW)."
Another Muslim sister, from California, who was a practising Christian and an active member in her nearby Presbyterian church, wrote in her conversion story that despite her active affiliation with the church, she always had serious questions about the fundamentals of Chrsitianity which did not make sense to her. She debated her questions with her friends but never came up with good answers. The church couldn't give them good answers either, they only told them to "have faith". All her questions were answered when she took a course about Islam. Listen to her own words:
"This class brought back all of the concerns that I had about Christianity. As I learned about Islam, all my questions were answered. All of us are not punished for Adam's original sin. Adam asked God for forgiveness and our merciful, loving God forgave him. God doesn't require a blood sacrifice in payment for sin. We must sincerely ask for forgiveness and amend our ways. Jesus wasn't God, he was a prophet like all of the other prophets. This answered all of my questions about the trinity and the nature of Jesus. I found a teaching that put everything in its proper perspective and appealed to my heart and my intellect. It seemed natural. It wasn't confusing. I had been searching and I had found a place to rest my faith."
My dear brothers and sisters, Islam is so strong and so self-assured that it does not need to use force to attract others to it. The moral and intellectual superiority of Islam over all other religions has manifested itself so clearly throughout the history of Islam. Despite all of the ills of Muslims everywhere, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion on earth. Professor Huston Smith of the MIT in his book, "The Religions of Man" says:
"In some areas where Islam and Christianity are competing for converts, Islam is gaining at a rate of 10 to 1."
Ambassador Herman Ellis, in a testimony in front of the committee on Foreign Affirs of the House of Represntatives of the United States Congress on June 24th, 1985, said:
"The Muslim community of the globe today is in the neighbourhood of one billion. That is an impressive figure. But what to me is equally impressive is that Islam today is the fastest growing monotheistic religion. This is something we have to take into account. Something is right about Islam. It is attracting a good many people."
Dear Jeehad
I simply cannot do the subject justice. It is now obvious or at least likely that you are just some mideastern fanatic, mindlessly repeating the same story your teachers tell you. Your hypocracy is daunting. Again I blocked out part of your discourse and found your tirade to be someone elses words. All that grand talk about being a scolar and very knowledgable is such a haux. You are probably some scool kid somewhere in the mid east with no opinion of his own so why do I even bother.
Here is what I blocked out
In a discussion with a Baptist Minister he said to me that "Muslims tend to kill non-Muslims and anyone who disagrees with them". In a syndicated column appearing in over 30 papers (on July 23rd, 1994) entitled, "Muslim persecution of Christians increasing" the author blames many Muslims countries for persecuting Christians then he quotes the Qur'an, "There is no compulsion in Religion" and ends the quote by rudely writing "Really?".Here is what Google found
http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/sword.html
Our conversation is nothong but a reiteration of what you find on the net. These thoughts that you seem to think for yourself are articles that you cut and paste :-D .
Don't you get it Jeehad, you are exposed for what a fanatic you are, and totally exposed for all your claims of superior knowledge and religious insight into Islam. You are a bigot and a fake.
Besides that , the very fact that you continue to claim that Islam is NOT a violent religion boggles the mind. This was the issue in the cartoon controversy. Muhammad was portrayed as a violent man and his followers as violent and they basically burned down the mideast with even many of their own followers killed, TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE NOT A VIOLENT RELIGION.
In my opinion YOU are the follower of a very violent and immoral man, and I have nothing in common with you, nothing at all.
Regards Mustardseed
First of all, you are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY self sufficiently judgmental. First of all, where is your proof of Muhammad being a violent man? You CLEARLY have not learn anything about Islam and EVEN the bible yourself. See, please provide a defensful quota against the biblical verses I posted? Actually, I never claimed I was a sheikh or scholar. I just said I have tried my best to learn about spirituality and religion as much as I can. I am actually 16 years old. Your making claims without actual proof to defend them. Show me a saying of Muhammad where he orders to murder people? Or perform in violent actions? Muhammed was a VERY VERY VERY peaceful man.
Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) sent a message to the monks of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai:
"This is a message written by Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, far and near, we are behind them. Verily, I defend them by myself, the servants, the helpers, and my followers, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be changed from their jobs, nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they (Christians) are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, this is not to take place without her own wish. She is not to be prevented from going to her church to pray. Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation is to disobey this covenant till the Day of Judgment and the end of the world." (Reference: Muslims and Non-Muslims Face to Face by Dr Ahmad H Sakr, isbn: 0911119-31-9)
"God commands justice, the doing of the good, and liberality to kith and kin. He
forbids all shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. Thus does he instruct you, that you may receive admonition." 16:90
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that he may know and cooperate with one another." 49:13
"The prohibited month - for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited - There is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." Holy Qu'ran 2:194
"...approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."
Holy Qu'ran 4:90
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is oft forgiving, most merciful." 9:5
Dear Jeehad
I realise now that you indeed are very young. I therefor apologize for my heated arguments and rash statements. It appears that you are very keen on actually seeking out matters for yourself and I would suggest that you read the following link and consider the matter carefully. I realize that this essay is very foreign to you. You most likely have been brought up by loving and peacefull parents in a environment where violence is condemned, hence the content may not be YOUR reality, yet it is a reality for millions of others who have not been that blessed. Keep an open mind to facts Jeehad and examine these and make up your own mind.
Regards Mustardseed
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/696408/posts
Religion is one of those subjects where it is guaranteed that everyone will have different opinions. Your discussions are welcomed to continue, however, please keep the tone respectful towards each other.
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 08, 2007, 13:09:19
Dear Jeehad
I realise now that you indeed are very young. I therefor apologize for my heated arguments and rash statements. It appears that you are very keen on actually seeking out matters for yourself and I would suggest that you read the following link and consider the matter carefully. I realize that this essay is very foreign to you. You most likely have been brought up by loving and peacefull parents in a environment where violence is condemned, hence the content may not be YOUR reality, yet it is a reality for millions of others who have not been that blessed. Keep an open mind to facts Jeehad and examine these and make up your own mind.
Regards Mustardseed
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/696408/posts
Your treating me as if I live in a cave? I've read your so called "violence in islam" but none of it is true.First of all, the Quranic verses which he portrayed are COMPLETELY TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT.Let em give you an example.
Jimmy went to school
jimmy saw john
john hit jimmy
jimmy hit john back
jimmy went back home
The author of the website is condolling "john hit jimmy" OMG LOOK JOHN IS A TERRORIST HES VIOLENT THATS IT JOHN MUST BE PUT IN JAIL. but the reality is Jimmy hot john first and John as the right to defend himself. The Holy Quran tells mankind that indeed we as muslims are able to defend ourselves from enemies(this is not called Jihad the word jihad essentially means to struggle in the way of God). Muhammad had a strict moral code for fighting though, he stated that in battle you cannot harm a plant, tree,animal, or human which is innocent only those who fight against you. And these words are further backed up by the Holy Quran.
"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression." (5:2).
"And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8).
"God commands justice, the doing of the good, and liberality to kith and kin. He
forbids all shameful deeds, injustice and rebellion. Thus does he instruct you, that you may receive admonition." 16:90
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you
into nations and tribes, that he may know and cooperate with one another." 49:13
"The prohibited month - for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited - There is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves." Holy Qu'ran 2:194
"...approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, he could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)."
2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.
2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.
2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.
2.194. The sacred month for the sacred month; sanctities should be respected alike ( by all concerned). Thus, if someone has attacked you, attack him just as he attacked you, and fear Allah and remain conscious that Allah is with those who guard against violating the bounds set by Him.
This is EVERY SINGLE verse which speaks about war. Do you see anything violent? The prophet Muhammed had friend whom were Jewish and Christian. In fact, an Islamic holiday is fasting with the Jews because the prophet chose to do so why? To portray his love for ahli kitab the people of the book(Jews Sabians christians etc etc). these alleged allegations are people taking things out of context which should truly truly be understood. I'm still waiting on a rebuttal for those Biblical verses I proposed about bloodshed????
Quote from: Jeehad on February 06, 2007, 22:54:10
Dear MustardSeed you have clearly shown to me not only of your limited understanding of the holy Quran but also a very VERY limited understanding of your own bible.
Exodus 13
14 "In days to come, when your son asks you, 'What does this mean?' say to him, 'With a mighty hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
15 When Pharaoh stubbornly refused to let us go, the LORD killed every firstborn in Egypt, both man and animal. This is why I sacrifice to the LORD the first male offspring of every womb and redeem each of my firstborn sons.'
16 And it will be like a sign on your hand and a symbol on your forehead that the LORD brought us out of Egypt with his mighty hand."
Numbers 25
17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them,
18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."
2 Kings 9
7 You are to destroy the house of Ahab your master, and I will avenge the blood of my servants the prophets and the blood of all the LORD's servants shed by Jezebel.
8 The whole house of Ahab will perish. I will cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel-slave or free.
9 I will make the house of Ahab like the house of Jeroboam son of Nebat and like the house of Baasha son of Ahijah.
Hosea 13:16 (New Living Translation) - The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords."
Hosea 13:16 (King James) Samaria will bear her guilt because she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.
OOOhh goody good good the bible is so peaceful. Show me one verse in the Holy Quran which promotes terrorism? I've read the bible and all I see is God commanding injustice and killing.
Dear Jeehad
Consider this. As Christians we cannot use old testament history as a way to condone killing. The old and the new testament are very sharply separated to a Christian. In a manner of speaking Jesus changed the way we understand God. The birth of Jesus was a parting of ways with the Old. (testament) It is to us merely a Historical book, that shown the linage of Jesus, and not Commandments from God, this is why we call our selves Christians.
The Old Testament is very like the Koran, an eye for an eye tooth for tooth . revenge slaughter war etc.
but all this was condemned in the NEW Testament. Jesus presented us with another way and was a complete spiritual revolution, that many did (do) not understand.
Jesus said, "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account." Matthew 5.11
Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said to our ancestors: 'You must not kill; and anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court.' But I say this to you: anyone who is angry with his brother will answer for it before the court." Mt. 5.21-22
Jesus said, "You have learnt how it was said: 'Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.' But I say to you, Offer the wicked man no resistance. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him." Mt. 5.38-41
Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy; But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those whose persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Mt. 5.43-46
Jesus said, "You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. If they persecute you in one town, take refuge in the next; and if they persecute you in that, take refuge in another." Mt. 10.22-23
Jesus said, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; fear him rather who can destroy both body and soul in hell." Mt. 10.28
Jesus said, "If anyone wants to be a follower of mine, let him renounce himself and take up his cross and follow me. For anyone who wants to save his life will lose it; but anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it." Mt. 16.24-25
Jesus said, "I tell you solemnly, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt. 18.3
Jesus said, "See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven." Mt. 18.10
Jesus said, "anyone who wants to be great among you must be your servant, and anyone who wants to be first among you must be your slave, just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve." Mt. 20.26-28
If you refuse to love, you must remain dead; to hate your brother is to be a murderer, and murderers, as you know, do not have eternal life in them.
—1 John 3.15
Jesus said, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." Mt. 22.40
Jesus said, "I was hungry and you never gave me food; I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink; I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, naked and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me . . . I tell you solemnly, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me." And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the virtuous to eternal life." Mt 25.42-43,45-46
Jesus said, "It is from within, from men's hearts, that evil intentions emerge: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, malice, deceit, indecency, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within and make a man unclean." Mk. 7.21-23
Jesus said, "you know the commandments: you must not kill..." Mark 10.18
Jesus said, "when you stand in prayer, forgive whatever you have against anybody, so that your Father in heaven may forgive your failings too." Mk. 11.25
Jesus said, "if anyone has two tunics, he must share with the man who has none, and the one with something to eat must do the same." Luke 3.11
Jesus said, "No intimidation! No extortion! Be content with your pay." Lk 3.14
Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly." Lk. 6.27-28
Jesus said, "Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate. Do not judge, and you will not be judge yourselves; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned yourselves; grant pardon, and you will be pardoned." Lk 6.27
Jesus said, "why do you call me, "Lord, Lord" and not do what I say?" Lk. 6.46
Jesus said, "What is written in the law? What do you read there? He replied, "You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." "You have answered right," said Jesus "do this and life is yours." Lk 10.26-28
Jesus (on the cross) said, "Father, forgive them, they do not know what they are doing." Lk 23.34
Jesus said, "If there is one of you who has not sinned, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John. 8.7
Jesus said, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; just as I have loved you, you also must love one another. By this love you have for one another, everyone will know that you are my disciples." Jn. 13.34-35
Jesus said, "Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me;" Jn. 14.21
Jesus said, "This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you." Jn. 14.22
Jesus said, "What I command you is to love one another." Jn. 14.27
Jesus said, "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. But it will be on my account that they will do all this, because they do not know the one who sent me." Jn. 15.20-21
Jesus said, "I have told you all this so that you may find peace in me. In the world you will have trouble, but be brave: I have conquered the world." Jn. 16.33
Jesus said, "I have made your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them, and so that I may be in them." Jn. 17.26
Jesus said, "mine is not a kingdom of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my men would have fought to prevent my being surrendered to the Jews. But my kingdom is not of this kind." Jn. 18.36
Like the Lion in Narnia (by C.S. Lewis, he spoke and taught us a deeper truth.
My apologies if I make you feel like you live in a cave, I am sure you do not. I was merely trying to soften the rhetoric between us, and felt quite bad that I had engaged in such a heated debate. I suppose my apology was not accepted. It seems to me that you have made up your mind that I am wrong, and enemy of the truth,that you have been offended and therefore you will not be appeased. There is not much more that I can do. It seems we nolonger are having a discussion about our respective beliefs, but an argument where emotions hurts pride and ego are more important than the sharing of information. If that is the case, I do not want to be a part of it. :cry:
Regards Mustardseed
I see how it is in Christianity you believe in "parts of the OT" But doesn't that seem false to you? I mean, its as if your taking a book and ripping out passages of things which "don't suite you." The entire Bible is based upon the ancient Hebrew stories which were later on translated into the modern version of the bible. The NT is actually a continuation of the hebrew stories within the OT which forms this whole Christian ideology. I can find countless number of errors in the bible, contradictions, simple blasphemy and confusing ideologies(I can show you if you like?). First of all, you STILL FAIL to show me any Quranic verses which incite hatred among people YOUR CLAIMING SO but have absolutely no proof at all. I am not angry at you, but your ignorance is overwhelming...
The Hebrew stories which form the core of the OT are themselves derived from even earlier Sumerian legends. The myths of the great flood etc were common mesopotamian myths.
The Jews, being brought up in this cultural environment were no different but they adapted the mythology and interpreted it in their own way, as did everyone else.
For the ealiest stories of the Flood, read the Epic of Gilgamesh.
In the original Sumerian mytholology, it was the Gods who were peeved off with humanity and so decided to wipe the slate clean and start again. The version in the OT replaces 'the Gods' with 'God' but the basic story is the same.
The Jews did us a service as the OT is actually a great compendium of ancient mesopotamian mythology, much of which would have been lost if it had not been recorded. Although interpreted according to their own world view, it is not hard to strip this veneer away and see the ancient stories in their original Sumerian form.
I would definately recommend the Epic of Gilgamesh for those who havent read it. This never got directly included in the OT although the flood element did, but it is even more amazing as it is a direct piece of literature straight from ancient Sumer.
Jeehad:
Nothing develops in isolation or springs up fully formed at once:
Jewish religion and world view was influenced and continued on from ancient mesopotamian religion and mythology, Chirstianity was then influenced through Jewish and pagan neo-platonist thought, and then Islam was a continuation again from Christian thought. That is the way of things.
Quote from: Jeehad on February 11, 2007, 21:07:36
I see how it is in Christianity you believe in "parts of the OT" But doesn't that seem false to you? I mean, its as if your taking a book and ripping out passages of things which "don't suite you." The entire Bible is based upon the ancient Hebrew stories which were later on translated into the modern version of the bible. The NT is actually a continuation of the hebrew stories within the OT which forms this whole Christian ideology. I can find countless number of errors in the bible, contradictions, simple blasphemy and confusing ideologies(I can show you if you like?). First of all, you STILL FAIL to show me any Quranic verses which incite hatred among people YOUR CLAIMING SO but have absolutely no proof at all. I am not angry at you, but your ignorance is overwhelming...
What I said was that Islam is a violent religion. It promores killing infidels if they will not convert, and hate infidels, especially if they oppose Islam or speak up for a different faith. This is evident in a myriad of fatwas and generally known by all. We as Christians do not see the OT and the NT as one book, but Jesus taught a NEW way, and spoke of this often. The NT is as far from the OT in matters of violence and so forth as Communism is from Capitalism. Just imagine if this was not so. Imagine a world in which Christians and Christian nations followed the Islamic principles of converting by sword, imagine a world where every Christian nation was as bloodthirsty and hostile as Israel. The Muslim world would soon be in ruins , wiped out by the Superior weapons and technology of the west.
As for being ignorant this is what the dictionary states is the meaning of the word
Without education or knowledge:
illiterate, , uneducated, uninstructed, unlearned, unschooled, untaught.
See knowledge.
Exhibiting lack of education or knowledge:
backward, benighted, primitive, unenlightened.
Let me assure you that I am not ignorant I might be stupid, in your opinion, I might be aggressive, irritating or arrogant, but I am not ignorant.
To tell you the truth, after having lived in Muslim communities such as Afghanistan Turkey and Iran for many years, it is my firm belief that the masses of Muslim believers are very very ignorant. I would even go so far as to claiming that this is provable. The vast majority of Muslims are, illiterate,,uneducated, unschooled, backward, and primitive just to use some of the definitions from above. As for you I have no way of knowing. At least you can read and spell and express yourself, so I am not sure.
Regards Mustardseed
Mustardseed,
You know, such is the domination of political correctness in Britain today that you would probably not be allowed to say what you just did there.
You might even be accusesed of being a racist or at least 'islama-phobic'!
The doctrine of political correctness is destroying free speech in Britain. I'm sure there is a similar problem in the US, but believe me, its far worse here!
www.holyfire.org/eng/
:-)
QuoteImagine a world in which Christians and Christian nations followed the Islamic principles of converting by sword, imagine a world where every Christian nation was as bloodthirsty and hostile as Israel.
umm...sounds like you are describing the crusades to me!
QuoteTo tell you the truth, after having lived in Muslim communities such as Afghanistan Turkey and Iran for many years, it is my firm belief that the masses of Muslim believers are very very ignorant. I would even go so far as to claiming that this is provable. The vast majority of Muslims are, illiterate,,uneducated, unschooled, backward, and primitive just to use some of the definitions from above. As for you I have no way of knowing. At least you can read and spell and express yourself, so I am not sure.
I do not believe you can draw that assumption based on the countries you listed. Without having any data whatsoever in this matter, I would hypothesize that the exact same things could be used to describe the vast majority of christians in those countries. I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with the respective country's social/education system.
I would argue that the educational level between muslims and christians here in the US is probably consistent. Not because of the religion, but because they live in the same country and have access to the same educational system. You cannot compare the education of christians in the US to muslims in Afghanistan. Its the epitome of an apple to orange comparison.
I had posted one warning thus far, but this discussion seems to be continuing to degrade. Any further inflammatory posts, regardless of the poster, and I will lock this thread.
Quote from: Novice on February 12, 2007, 15:37:29
umm...sounds like you are describing the crusades to me!
I do not believe you can draw that assumption based on the countries you listed. Without having any data whatsoever in this matter, I would hypothesize that the exact same things could be used to describe the vast majority of Christians in those countries. I think it has less to do with religion and more to do with the respective country's social/education system.
I would argue that the educational level between muslims and christians here in the US is probably consistent. Not because of the religion, but because they live in the same country and have access to the same educational system. You cannot compare the education of christians in the US to muslims in Afghanistan. Its the epitome of an apple to orange comparison.
I had posted one warning thus far, but this discussion seems to be continuing to degrade. Any further inflammatory posts, regardless of the poster, and I will lock this thread.
I will take that into consideration allthough I do not see the wrong in what I stated. I understand that you would argue as you do but I think that is due to you not having lived in these countries yourself.You argue but could as well say "I guess". One point you are right about is the fact that Muslims and Christians in the USA have the same standard, however that only proves my point. It commonly known that rich Muslim families do everything they can to get their kids a school in Christian USA, as the education is Superior, I think that you are well aware of that fact. The next best is sending them to a Catholic school, in their own or neighboring countries, it is for they educated the most used option. Most fundamentalist schools based on the Koran, are not very sought after by the wealthy and the ones in power. If you as a moderator want me to substantiate these claims I shall gladly do so. If you are trying to silence truth based on political correctness go ahead and censure me. It will not be the first time
Regards Mustardseed
QuoteIf you as a moderator want me to substantiate these claims I shall gladly do so. If you are trying to silence truth based on political correctness go ahead and censure me. It will not be the first time
My point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted, is akin to someone saying that the vast majority of blacks in Nigeria are ignorant, therefore the vast majority of blacks everywhere are ignorant. I would have the same issues with that statment as I do with the one you made regarding muslims. Education is not a factor of religion, it is a factor of society and money. I do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims in those countries are uneducated. In fact, I said that I would agree that they probably are. However, I also said that the same is probably true regarding christains and any other religion in those countries. Education is linked to money as well as society; not religion.
As a moderator, my job is to make sure that each member is free to post their own views. However, those views need to be expressed with respect to the other members. Even you have posted several times in this thread that the discussion is degrading. It should not be surprising that a moderator has now made two warnings regarding the quality of the posts. The warnings are geared to both you and Jeehad. So contrary to what you believe, there is no political agenda. The forum is meant to be a free exchange of similar to diverse opinions. As long as all members post respectfully to one another, the discussion can continue as long as you want to continue it.
Quote from: Novice on February 12, 2007, 16:47:25
My point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted, is akin to someone saying that the vast majority of blacks in Nigeria are ignorant, therefore the vast majority of blacks everywhere are ignorant. I would have the same issues with that statment as I do with the one you made regarding muslims. Education is not a factor of religion, it is a factor of society and money. I do not doubt that the vast majority of muslims in those countries are uneducated. In fact, I said that I would agree that they probably are. However, I also said that the same is probably true regarding christains and any other religion in those countries. Education is linked to money as well as society; not religion.
As a moderator, my job is to make sure that each member is free to post their own views. However, those views need to be expressed with respect to the other members. Even you have posted several times in this thread that the discussion is degrading. It should not be surprising that a moderator has now made two warnings regarding the quality of the posts. The warnings are geared to both you and Jeehad. So contrary to what you believe, there is no political agenda. The forum is meant to be a free exchange of similar to diverse opinions. As long as all members post respectfully to one another, the discussion can continue as long as you want to continue it.
Dear Novice
While it might as many other issues be an inconvenient truth, the fact is that Islam, the masses of Muslims whereever they may live are sadly suffering from a devastating lack of education. This lack is a fact according to various sources, and only tend to further cement the power of various leaders in the mideast. I am not baking baseless claims here but stating fact. Here is a link to Asiatimes see what you think.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/GK01Aa01.html
I think that this is a very interesting issue and one that is very pertinent to the current discussion. It appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma. The earth being flat comes to mind, as one such issue. I have not in any way stated anything but fact. I do not mean nor do I feel I show disrespect to the Muslim community worldwide but only drawn attention to this to explain why statements regarding science is so easily believed by the masses, making religious aggression the order of the day. As for the Christians in these same countries I challenge your claim. Consider the following excepts of an essay by Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,
According to Kenneth David, literacy of Christian world in 1980 was on an average 90% and about 15 countries had a literacy of 100%. On the other hand, average literacy in the Muslim countries was less than 40% and none had 100% literacy. More or less the same situation continued afterwards and in 2001 UNDP reported an average of 60 percent literacy in Islamic countries and between 95 to 100% in the Western nations of Christians. Among the literates of the Christian world, hardly 2% of the population did not complete school education whereas 50% of the so-called literates of the Muslim societies never attended modern schools. In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West. This is in contrast with the situation prevailing during Middle Ages when Christians used to travel to Muslim Spain for getting higher education in medicine, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.You can read the full article here
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_251_300/status_of_muslim_societies_aroun.htm
This is written by a Muslim not a Christian and accurately describes that factual state of affairs.
I realize that it is a very embarrassing fact and one that is not easily accepted by educated Muslims, but it is a fact nevertheless. If this fact is not allowed in the discussion, I believe a major point is missed. Like in a court case where a confession of an alledged felon is omitted for technical reasons. We as a world are trying to figure out why terrorism and religious/fanatical fervor plays such a major role in Islamic societies today, in order to help these countries regain their self respect and become equal partners in a better world. As you might know I have lived and worked for 30 years in Muslim countries in the medical and educational field, and I feel qualified to comment like I do. If you or others, who have probably never set foot in a Muslim country, challenge my right to this line of argument in the quest for "niceness" and a respectful discussion you are making a mistake.
I do feel that on a personal level Jeehad and I have had some personal issues and have been less than courteous in to each other, I have tried to address this only to be called ignorant. It seems that it is accepted to call Christians anything degrade our Faith with ridicule and slurs, but the moment (we) utter anything in our defense, we are immediately silenced with accusations of "a lack of respect".
In my humble opinion this attitude in a symptom of Political Correctness, a sickness that is presently devouring western society. I had hoped that this would be different on the Net and more specifically the AP. If you care to draw my attention to the "Broad generalizations" that I make and substantiate your claims I shall be glad to adjust my views and subsequent postings. Just remember that you are not posting to a young unexperienced student, devoid of experience and intellect, and be careful who you silence in the name of "niceness". I find your own knowledge on the subject rather minute, but maybe I am wrong, as I said I would be glad to stand corrected on this issue. I do love and respect each individual in the world, be he of one faith or another, as an equal, spiritually that is, and this very sad fact is very problematic to me, something that I am trying to change and have been for some 30 years.
Regards Mustardseed
QuoteIn my humble opinion this attitude in a symptom of Political Correctness, a sickness that is presently devouring western society.
I sooooo agree with this political correct sickness... I'm not claiming to know one thing about this tete a' tete between you two but I think you both have pretty much kept it as calm as can be expected when it comes to such a subject matter. Both have had their little personal stabs from what I can see. No harm no foul from where I sit, but that's me. Heck, where was the political correctness when I was being called all sorts of names under the sun by certain members...??
*rings a bell* Shake hands and no hitting under the belt. :-)
I was weighing in to this topic purely to bring the tone of the thread back to one of respect. If you had read my posts, you will see the I repeatedly used words like "guess", "hypothesize", and phrases like "while I don't have the data". I am not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, and with all due respect to you and Jeehad, the topic does not interest me at all. As a result, I have caveatted everything I've said on the subject.
QuoteIt appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma.
Mustardseed I do not disagree with you at all on this. In fact I completely agree with it. However, my point is still the same. The above issue you raise here can be said just as much about christianity as it can about islam. That is all that I am trying to bring to light. Just the other month christian religious leaders were upset because of the science being taught in schools. They were trying to ban Darwin's theory because it did not allow for the concept of intelligent design. There was a similar incident in Africa last month. A museum was going to display the oldest preserved humanoid ever found. I forget the details, but essentially it takes it one step closer to proving human evolution. The christain leaders attempted to get the artifact banned from public view, but the owners of the museum refuse. They have hired additional security as the leaders have promised protests when the exhibit opens.
I think it is very difficult for any religious person to view their religion objectively. This is one of the reasons I rarely read, and even more rarely, post in this section.
QuoteMy point is that you are making broad generalizations without seeming to take in to account other factors. The conclusion you draw, based on what you've posted,...
I use the term "broad generalization" exactly as I defined it above -- based on what was in your post. Your initial post made no reference whatsoever to any studies/statistics/reports. It simply said that you lived in those countries and this is the conclusion you came to. I have no intention of looking up the links you provided and trying to disprove your comments. As I've mentioned repeatedly I do not doubt that they are correct.
My sole intent in posting to this thread is to make sure the posts do not escalate in to biased, inflammatory comments. This was the path in which I saw the latest posts heading (both yours and Jeehad's). That is my job as moderator. So unless things heat up again, I do not intend to add anything further to the conversation.
lool and MustardSeed you still STILL fail to show me how Islam OR WHERE Islam promotes the killing of innocence. First of all, the actions of a group of people should never be portrayed or be attached as a stigma to the whole of the people. Hitler was not a muslim? Could I accuse that all Germans are Nazis? No, because that would be completely ignorant. The religion of Islam stems from the root word salam which means PEACE. ?The main principles of Islam is PEACE. You fail to realize this because this is in fact the CENTRAL basis of this religion. You Clearly have shown me your lack of understanding of your VERY OWN bible. Please Mustard get a copy of the Bible and read it over again and I'm sure your going to notice such brutality, then compare it with the verses of the Holy Quran.
Dear Novice
I am glad that you continue to post and do not get offended by my statements. I hope that this trend continues as we continue exchanging views. I would like to comment on your post if you do not mind as it is obvious that we do not see things eye to eye.
You said:
If you had read my posts, you will see the I repeatedly used words like "guess", "hypothesize", and phrases like "while I don't have the data". I am not claiming to be anything close to an expert on this subject, and with all due respect to you and Jeehad, the topic does not interest me at all. As a result, I have caveatted everything I've said on the subject.
I realized quite early on that this was the case, (that you are no expert on the subject) and this is one point that I would like to draw your attention to. It is your job to moderate, and you are whether you like it or not somewhat of a authority figure. When you make baseless claims it is often accepted for more than opinion. Your "caveatting" (whatever that means) any such baseless claims and stating various hypotheses, is not moderating but rather entering the discussion, at which point you should leave your "moderators-stick" by the door. You should not make such statements as basis for your moderation. That is bias toward an unsubstantiated opinion.
I previously posted this statement :
It appears that various claims, regarding the scientific validity of certain suras in the Koran, stands unchallenged by the vast majority of Muslims. As we know from the dark ages in Europe, this fact makes it easy to induce religious fervor. There was a time when the Catholic church was very powerful, inciting the masses of uneducated believers to martyr various scientists for making claims that opposed the official Church dogma
And you replied:
my point is still the same. The above issue you raise here can be said just as much about Christianity as it can about Islam.
If this is your point/claim, please substantiate it, otherwise I does not belong in the discussion, and is merely a quip of no consequence. I believe that you are very wrong indeed. The vast masses of Christians have very successfully marginalized the few Fundamentalists out there, and they are very marginal indeed. On a broad base I would say that only in the states have they succeeded in linking their Faith with politics. Millions of believing Christians have, through education and the very tenants of their belief, rejected aggression toward those who believe otherwise. Partly because the New Testament and the life of Jesus, encourages peace and nonviolence as opposed to The Koran and Muhammed, but also because Christianity has no Hadith, and is believed to be an "individually lived faith". The New Testament stands on its own, without a Hadith, and is opposed to having teachers who twist the scriptures. It certainly is all for leadership, but leadership mind you, on a personal level involving counseling prayer and so forth. As for instigating to religious fervor, there will always be the occasional nut who blows up a abortion clinic, (or invaded another country for that matter) but the vast masses of Christians are not swayed toward violence, nor do they see in their sacred scriptures anything that expects them to take up arms to make the world Christian.
This very issue is what makes the Koran and the Muslims different from the New Testament and Christians. The Koran encourages an official merging of Religion and state, Sharia law. Under this law an mind-boggling array of human rights violations, are seen as "justifiable" through the tenants of the Koran. Under Sharia law and in a Moslem state, Fatwas and Jeehad are seen as the duty of every Muslim abiding there as well. I hope I do not have to explain what a Fatwa is. This is unthinkable in a Christian country. Please keep in mind that we are not talking here about being offended at various exhibitions, or trying to legislate against certain scientific viewpoints, but rather the slaughter and violence of awesome proportions. Incidentally your own statements supports my point. Christians may protest, try to sway others through politics, and influence through a public debate, but it is a known fact that in Muslim countries anyone seen as desecrating the tenants of the faith is persecuted in the most cruel way or simply executed. Christians are for the most part peaceful and patient seeking to change peoples views through secular means, in court and the public debate as opposed to the masses of Muslims who take to the streets burn down embassies and even blow up themselves and innocent bystanders, in an effort to please their God.
Then you said:
I use the term "broad generalization" exactly as I defined it above -- based on what was in your post. Your initial post made no reference whatsoever to any studies/statistics/reports. It simply said that you lived in those countries and this is the conclusion you came to. I have no intention of looking up the links you provided and trying to disprove your comments. As I've mentioned repeatedly I do not doubt that they are correct.
My sole intent in posting to this thread is to make sure the posts do not escalate in to biased, inflammatory comments. This was the path in which I saw the latest posts heading (both yours and Jeehad's). That is my job as moderator. So unless things heat up again, I do not intend to add anything further to the conversation
My post did not need to be. This is the way a debate unfolds Novice. At first statements are made, then they are challenged, then they are either substantiated or not. You challenged my statement and I would suggest that you substantiate your claim. I have substantiated my statements very thoroughly, something I did not do because I thought you were well aware of this glaring fact. You were not. You however keep sticking to your unsubstantiated allegations and I ask you to please do so or be silent.
What I think is happening is that you entered the debate in order to calm the rhetoric, maybe unwittingly, promoting Political correctness. To be a "friend" to what appeared to you to be the attacked party you got involved in the actual debate, making claims, hypothesis etc. When I called you on this you denied it and tried to cover up by saying you were only trying to keep things respectful. You cannot make statements in favor of one opponent in a discussion, and then when you are challenged just say "Well I don't know anything about the subject but I was just trying to make you talk nice to each other" Do you follow my line of argument.
Besides that I do not think the debate was all that disrespectful, as Nay said we had a few shots at each other but are both trying to keep our tone reasonable and not too heated.
So choose Novice, stick to moderating or join the debate.
Regards Mustardseed
PS Jeehad...respond to this
KORAN commands to kill infidels:
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98
On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39
Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.
..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89
Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65
It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.
Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73
Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111
Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....
As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15
Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60
Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.
Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25
Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29
Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9
The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51
Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)
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KORAN promises of houris in heaven:
Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37:40-49
Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38:50-54
Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44:51-57
Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52:17-22
...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55:54-56
Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56:11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.
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Koran "sharia" punishments:
As for the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah. - Surah 5:38
Dear MustardSeed, I will now begin explainin each verse for you Cheesy
"2.98": Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
I do not see how this promotes hatred and anger? Surely God does not love those who are lead astray? Those who murder steal rape and promote hatred are enemies of God. God loves those who are just, those who are pious men in the eyes. This is also the central pricinipality of Christianity. Also, surat al baqarah is also referring to the meccans as the un belivers. If you knew ANYTHING about Arab history, you will notice the brutality of the Meccans.
"2.161": Surely those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers, these it is on whom is the curse of Allah and the angels and men all;
Again the same as the first verse. An unbeliver is known as a kufr one who commites sins. The message of Islam tells you to love your brothers and sisters, do not incite hatred among people and once you break these moral codes you are surely on a destructive path. Christianity throws men in Heaven for eternity if you don't accept Jesus although in Islam you will be thrown in hell for a certain period of time depending on your sins. And Surely God in Christianity does not love those who turn away from him? SO giving me these 2 verses is accepting your hypocricy isnt it?
Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191
looool... When the Meccans were coming to attack the Muslims who sought refuge in Medina the Angel Gabriel gave Muhammad a revelation to fight them back. I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest you read the entire chapter it will be MUCH more clear to you :P There are 3 differnt battles in which the Muslims had to take place in to fight against Meccans. Countless number of verses in the Quran commanded Muhammed to ONLY fight when being fought at. Therefore Fighting for your own defense is the principality of Islam. But God has certain guidelines of fighting which is outlined in many Hadiths.
"2.193": And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
Dude... The verse you posted and this verse completely dont match also its the same explanation as above:P Notice there in the same chapter?
"2.216": Fighting is enjoined on you, and h is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know.
When the Meccans were coming to slaughter the Muslims, the Quranic verse stated that they must all fight to defend themselves. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with it... If a giant army of Mexicans come to invade America do they have the right to fight??? Quran never tells humanity to invade countries because they are disbelievers and as I mentioned in an earlier post about taking 1 verse and portraying it as the central message without reading the book as a whole was essential.
"3.140": If a wound has afflicted you (at Ohud), a wound like it has also afflicted the (unbelieving) people; and We bring these days to men by turns, and that Allah may know those who believe and take witnesses from among you; and Allah does not love the unjust.
"3.141": And that He may purge those who believe and deprive the unbelievers of blessings.
"3.142": Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient.
If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8
You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71
Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74
Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76
The battle of Ohud was a battle in which the meccans attacked a group of muslims. SO the Muslims had to fight back(this was known as Ohud). Remember, the Meccans were a powerful army at the time, they hated Muhammds message because it spread VERY FAST. Powerful men of the society took a liking to it WHY? because it colved many social problems within that particular society. Arabia was enthrived with murder, rape, drunkness etc etc and Islam called upon man to unite as beings and to follow the path of righteousness. So the Meccans HATED it and tried to fight the muslims countless number of times. In fact when the Muslim people were a small number, living in Mecca they were persecuted... tortured and the message came for them to leave out of Mecca. Now, tell me Doesn't it say in Christianity whoever dies a Christian? Or dies defending Gods religion will surely enter paradise? Your twisted view of a martyr is one who has BOMBS strapped to his body which is totally false. A martyr is one who dies for the cause of God.
"4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
I get this verse ALOT from people and the explanation is rather simple. A muslim piller is to perform HAJJ(the pilgrimage to mecca) at least once in a lifetime. Note the K'aabah(the site of pilgramige) belonged to the Meccan arabs. So, as the Muslims entered Mecca to perform there piglramige God commanded them at first NOT to fight them leave them be, BUT THEN HE SAYS If they desist against you THEN fight them. I'm sure this is an acceptable sanction. Think about it, IF I entered a Church and ravaged out disrupting you from your worship and threatened to kill you all... I'd get shot!!! this is exactly what happened. And this entire chapter speaks about it in segments.
"5.54": O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; this is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing.
WHERE DID YOU PULL THAT VERSE OUT OF... The above is the correct 1...
"8.36": Surely those who disbelieve spend their wealth to hinder (people) from the way of Allah; so they shall spend it, then it shall be to them an intense regret, then they shall be overcome; and those who disbelieve shall be driven together to hell.
"8.37": That Allah might separate the impure from the good, and put the impure, some of it upon the other, and pile it up together, then cast it into hell; these it is that are the losers.
"8.38": Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the ancients has already passed.
"8.39": And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
These verses are explained.. When Muhammed and his peple fled Mecca, the Meccans found an oppurtunity to take there Goods and sell it in trade. The caravans were set out so the Muslims HAD THE RIGHT to return there goods, as they came upon the caravans to get them returend what happened next was the Meccan army was awaiting them for battle. his is known as the battle of Badr. A successfully moment in history for the Muslims, where they fought 10 thousand Meccans with only 400 soldiers with Gods grace and mercy.
"8.67": It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
An important thing you must know. Held captive isn't always pleasing in the eyes of people. God is telling mankind NOT to take captives UNLESS it is nessesary. I assure you back then being held captive was regarded as a dishonor.
When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5
loool, exactly as I was explaining earlier. In fact it is used as proof to back up wat I asid earlier:P During a month known as HARAM, one cannot even kill a fly. Muslims were required to restrain the opression the Meccans brought to them during there pilgramige THEN fight them back after the month was over. Again self defense nothing wrong with that.
"9.28": O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
In the Islamci religion BEFORE one must enter a mosque, read the Quran or even do Prayer, you must reach a state of fitrah(purity). One must perform wuduh to cleanse his body or else he is not permitted such. This goes to Muslims AND non muslims.
Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29
Thsi exact surah (the immunity) speaks about the pilgramige as I mentioned earlier which MUSLIMS HAVE EVERY RIGHT to fight back against ignorant people who fight them during there worship.If you read the Surah you are going to see my point ^.-/
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
Smiting of the neck eh. Tell me.. would you rather die by hanging? Or smited from the neck??? For me I'd rather be killed from the neck because all my central nerve known as the jugula lies in there. these nerves as soon as punctured destroy all nerves from the body making pain feel limitless. So would you rather feel pain? Or die without feeling pain? Remember 1400 years ago there were no such thing as morphine :P
"48.25": It is they who disbelieved and turned you away from the Sacred Mosque and (turned off) the offering withheld from arriving at its destined place; and were it not for the believing men and the believing women, whom, not having known, you might have trodden down, and thus something hateful might have afflicted you on their account without knowledge -- so that Allah may cause to enter into His mercy whomsoever He pleases; had they been widely separated one from another, We would surely have punished those who disbelieved from among them with a painful punishment.
"48.29": Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
WHERE THE HEC DID YOU GET THE TRANSLATION FROM.... Please stop forging the Quranic translations to fit your ignorance.
Let me give you an example of what you are doing :)
Jimmy when to school
Jimmy saw bob
Jimmy said hello
Bob slapped jimmy
bob laughed at Jimmy
Jimmy punched bob
OMG Jimmy punched bob Jimmy is a terrorist. He must be held captive him and his religion.. lool as you can se you failed to read the previous parts of WHY Jimmy did so? The Quran tells man never to fight unless the conditions are nessesary. meaning if someone is attacking you, you have the right to attack back as SELF DEFENSE with certain laws. You can only fight THOSE WHO ARE FIGHTING YOU nothing else. Meaning, even innocent lives of the enemy CANNOT BE TAKEN. EVEN A TREE has been forsaken to be hurt during such times. The Noble prophet Muhammed(pbuh) spoke right in front of those WHO KILLED HIS VERY OWN FAMILY. Imagine... He sat there making peace agreements as allah commanded to make peace first! They refused to do so and commanded him to stop preaching this religion. So the Meccans took hostility against him and his followers, tried to assassinate him many times but they failed through Gods grace and mercy.
Salam ou alakoum and I truly hope this post has inspired you to read the Holy Quran and find out that my words are true.
Peace!
Let us analyze the science in the bible shall we?
a. Creation of the Universe in Six Days
As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter On e, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur'an mentions that the universe was created in six 'Ayyaams', 'Ayyaam' is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period of time.
When the Qur'an mentions that the universe was created in six 'Ayyaams', it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each.
b. Sun Created After the Day
The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur'an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible.
c. Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system.
d. Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day
According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible?
If Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) was indeed the author of the Qur'an and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Qur'an does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts.
e. The Sun and the Moon both Emit light
According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night".
Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur'anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur'an is to think of something impossible.
f. Adam the First man on Earth, lived 5,800 years ago
As per the genealogy of Jesus Christ given in the Bible, from Jesus through Abraham (pbuh) to the first man on earth i.e. Adam (pbuh), Adam appeared on the earth approximately 5800 years ago:
i) 1948 years between Adam (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh)
ii) Approximately 1800 years between Abraham (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh)
iii) 2000 years from Jesus (pbuh) till today
These figures are further confused by the fact that the Jewish calendar is currently on or about 5800 years old.
There is sufficient evidence from archaeological and anthropological sources to suggest that the first human being on earth was present tens of thousands of years ago and not merely 5,800 years ago as is suggested by the Bible.
The Qur'an too speaks about Adam (pbuh) as the first man on earth but it does not suggest any date or period of his life on earth, unlike the Bible - what the Bible says in this regard is totally incompatible with science.
g. Noah and the Flood
The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.
This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur'anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur'an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur'an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur'an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.
It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur'an.
h. Moses and Pharaoh of the Exodus
The story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh of the Exodus are very much identical in the Qur'an and the Bible. Both scriptures agree that the Pharaoh drowned when he tried to pursue Moses (pbuh) and led the Israelites across a stretch of water that they crossed. The Qur'an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 92: "This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" [Al-Qur'an 10:92]
Dr. Maurice Bucaille, after a thorough research proved that although Rameses II was known to have persecuted the Israelites as per the Bible, he actually died while Moses (pbuh) was taking refuge in Median. Rameses II's son Merneptah who succeeded him as Pharaoh drowned during the exodus. In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning. Thus the Qur'anic verse that we shall save his body as a sign, has been fulfilled by the Pharaohs' body being kept at the Royal Mummies room in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.
This verse of the Qur'an compelled Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who was a Christian then, to study the Qur'an. He later wrote a book 'The Bible, the Qur'an and Science', and confessed that the author of the Qur'an can be no one else besides God Himself. Thus he embraced Islam.
i. Qur'an is a book of Allah
These evidences are sufficient to conclude that the Qur'an was not copied from the Bible, but that the Qur'an is the Furqaan - 'the Criteria' to judge right from wrong and it should be used to decipher which portion of the Bible may be considered as the Word of God.
The Qur'an itself testifies in Surah Sajda chapter 32 verse 1 to 3 Alif Laam Meem. (This is) the revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt – from the Lord of the Worlds.Or do they say, 'He has forged it'? Nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord, that thou mayest admonish a people to whom no warner has come before thee: in order that they may receive guidance." [Al-Qur'an 32:1-3]
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 12, 2007, 10:25:07
As for being ignorant this is what the dictionary states is the meaning of the word
Without education or knowledge:
illiterate, , uneducated, uninstructed, unlearned, unschooled, untaught.
See knowledge.
Exhibiting lack of education or knowledge:
backward, benighted, primitive, unenlightened.
Let me assure you that I am not ignorant I might be stupid, in your opinion, I might be aggressive, irritating or arrogant, but I am not ignorant.
About your own religion; yes, it seems you are. I do not believe you have the right to stereotype Muslims, thinking you know a lot about them, when you yourself know nothing of your own beliefs. You claim to be a Christian, yes?
So far from this argument; you present a point, Jeehad retaliates,
and you don't bring it up again. This could be fine in a normal debate; it would be understood that you would have taken in his point, and realized you were wrong. But no, in this one you seem to keep your beliefs even though he has presented valid arguments against them. Please, if you consider yourself a true Christian..
"Give an answer to everyone who asks you, to give the reason for the hope that you have." 1 Peter 3:15 And the Muslim stereotyping..
what was the point?! I don't believe most Muslims are idiots, but even if I did that would have nothing to do with what I believed about Jeehad! He's proven to be knowledgeable in his field. Follow your rules, stop trying to bend them.
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13As I've just shown, it seems you have already sinned twice in this argument. You read this message with your eyes, you typed your messages with your hands. You are in for it big time, it seems.
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell." Matthew 5:29How are you even seeing the screen? In your beliefs we all sin; that includes you. You seem to be ignoring what your "God" blatantly said to you. Now for the other..
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." Matthew 5:30 Are you typing with your knees or something? It is so clear what is being said here, and yet no Christian would ever bring this verse into his or her testimony. Do you take this as a metaphor or something? If you do, why?
Every verse around those two are taken as literal and yet you would never take these two as such. So please..
"If you love me, you will obey what I command."John 14:15
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Aren't ya'll? (http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-025.gif)
Dear All
Lol :-D I guess I just cant win. I will be satisfied to leave you all to continue the debate. This is all going way over my head so maybe you are right boys maybe I am ignorant. Maybe Muslims are a peaceloving fun bunch of guys, maybe Islam is a great peaceful movement of wellwishers and kind human beings. Maybe the world is a real fun place and the mid east a wonderworld like Disneyland where dreams come to pass. Muslim women have equality, terrorists were really not trying to hurt anyone but only made a wrong turn on the way to the stone quarry, oops and Osama Bin Laden and his associates are really kinda like Robin Hood and his merry men in disguise. He really wouldn't hurt a fly nooooo....only poke them to make them say sorry sir and besides his sword isn't a real sword but made of aluminum foil. Maybe we should all convert and become Muslims, instate Sharia and see what happens. ..........Hey there is an idea, then we will finally be in Heaven where righteousness rules and we can all live like they do in the mideast , enjoy our figs from our own garden and all have a great ol' time every Friday when the executioner comes to town. Cutting off heads and hands is so much easier than spending all that ungodly energy on re-socializing. We should all adhere to Islam and shun free speech, get some good old fashioned tyrants in place who can get our mind off all our trouble with some major food shortages or a saturday night embassy burning session, and if any of those nasty folks of other religions wont play.......then we all march to the beach together and fill our pockets with stones, and if anyone dares to poke fun of us either through caricatures or sarcasm irony or such we will bring them to justice...........off with their heads too. cause we don't want those troublesome guys around, noo...not being the peaceful loving bunch of guys we are.
I will leave you with one thought. This small part stood out to me in the much writing that has transpired
I have argued (among other things) with Jeehad that Islam is a Violent religion.......he denies this. I quoted a part of the Koran that pertains to unbelievers Sura 47:4 which states
When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
His reply was the following very complicated, yet rather enlightening statement:
(Jeehad) Smiting of the neck eh. Tell me.. would you rather die by hanging? Or smited from the neck??? For me I'd rather be killed from the neck because all my central nerve known as the jugula lies in there. these nerves as soon as punctured destroy all nerves from the body making pain feel limitless. So would you rather feel pain? Or die without feeling pain? Remember 1400 years ago there were no such thing as morphine
Well thanks Jeehad for the very emphatic comment on the lack of Morphine in the 1400's, I see clearly how much you care :-D
HELLO PEOPLE anyone home here. I guess it is only me that see anything wrong with this picture but being given the choice of execution method is not what I thought you were talking about when you called yourself Peaceful.
Allright kids I lay it down, and let you all have the field. Good luck with your conversion tour Jeehad.
Regards Mustardseed
I will leave the discussion with just one small ps
PS
What is a presupposition? A presupposition is an assumption you make prior to looking at the evidence. Presuppositions are crucial because they determine how you interpret the evidence. Let me give you an example. Did you hear about the man who thought he was dead? This guy firmly believed he was dead, even though he was a living, normally–functioning human being. Well, his wife persuaded him to visit a psychiatrist, who tried in vain to convince him that he was in fact alive. Finally, the psychiatrist hit upon a plan. He showed the man medical reports and scientific evidence that dead men do not bleed. After thoroughly convincing the man that dead men do not bleed, the psychiatrist took out a pin and pricked the man's finger. When the man saw the drop of blood trickle down his finger, his eyes bugged out. "Ha!" he cried, "Dead men do bleed after all!"
The man's belief that he was dead was a presupposition that determined how he interpreted the evidence. He held so strongly to that presupposition that it skewed how he looked at the facts.
Peace Jeehad you peaceperson you and all the merry men as well. Tell when you are coming to America and I will keep the tea hot
lol... I never EVER in my right mind claimed that the terrorists as you may call them are doing good. IF you want a political debate I'm more then happy to do so. MY opinion is that the biggest terrorist in this equation is the US government. Decades of murder against the Muslims people, theft of oil, billion dollar donations to a stolen state(israel) to further force illegal occupation on muslim grounds and you seriously do not expect resistance? For years people already knew something BAD was heading towards the US and I am sure that the governments knew that. And they further wanted it to occur in order to force there opinions down our lands to further occupy the region. This isn't a war against terror but rather a war against the poor, a war against peace. You fail to realize that I completely do NOT agree with Osama bin laden, nor do I agree with the talibans regimes against women. and as you can see by your wording you have claimed to show your utter ignorance. I announced my religion to being Islam and denying your claims(which you inevitably cannot refute) you view me as a supporter of such madness. I am a supporter of peace, I condemn any violence whether it be from a Muslim OR a Christian or a Jew. whether your black blue or white there is no reason for violence. Do you want to know why terrorist sare formed? Why there are such things as radicals and suicide bombers? The answer is simple! When you bomb a building you have CIVILIANS living in those buildings. Imagine if you kill a mother father son daughter? How will the relatives react? I'm sure if I killed both your parents you'd sure as hell murder me. Statistics show that the majority of terrorists come out of oppressed regions. You also need to understand one IMPORTANT FACT.Most of our governments were formed after the fall of the soviets. The US placed puppet governments which the vast majority of them were dictators and brutal rulers to further place pressure on the soviets during the cold war. These governments still remain today and receive there orders through the Us branch. You can DENY THIS CLAIM but I assure you any politican will agree with my statements. How do you not expect resistance to form, when your own government supplied the hatred on the people? How do you not expect terrorist to form when your own government supplied these terrorist themselves? Ever heard of the 1979 invasion of Afghanistan lead by the Russians? who do you think supplied 1.5 billion dollars to an organization which took pledge to eliminating them? THE US do you wanna know whom those organizations were? the Taliban AND Al-Qaeda.....
I come here explaining each verse and you claim that I am still in denial? Please MustardSeed am I wrong because you say so? You fail to realize every single verse was either your own twisting of words(and im being serious the words were actually changed...) OR even just taking one idea and portraying it as the central principality. How do you expect to get the full story when you've read a sentence of it? My only advice to you is to PLEASE read the Quran and if possible also Read your own bible and inshallah you will realize truth.
Ps. Upon the matter of the "head cutting," during wars the decapitation of ones head was an honorable way of death. this was actually a tradition which originated from the Japanese, it does seem gruesome but any person with knowledge of the human anatomy will know that your base nerves lie within that area. Just a millimeter of punctured skin will result in the collapse of feeling thus making the death painful. I don't see how that is wrong...
Hi Novice
Well at least there is something we agree on. I am totally in agreement with you regarding the oppression of the USA and its horrible wars. I do not see that on a political level one should be denied the right to retaliate and actually champion the cause of the oppressed be they Palestinian or otherwise. This is however not the issue we were discussing at all.
We were discussing the difference of the Koran and the Bible. The life of Muhammad and the Life of Jesus. We were discussing whether the Koran promotes and justifies violence. As far as I can see you have confirmed this. Whether violence is justifiable or not is a separate discussion. The Koran as you so clearly state believes in swift retaliation and promotes violence as a means of Holy war (war sanctioned by Allah) and the verses I quoted as well as your own statements are very clear. I think you yourself has proved this point.
As far as my previous statement that the masses of Muslims are illiterate or poorly educated and therefore easy to stir into a religious fervor, using the Koran is also quite evident. It is a fact, that the masses of Muslims fly off the handle if anyone offends them. They kill and justify killing if their Koran is soiled, and go into a rage if it is made fun off. In short they are volatile and easily incited to violence , because of their RELIGION as well as their ignorance, and pride.
Violence is an accepted part of life in Muslim countries honor killings revenge etc and you know that. The reason this is accepted is that it is sanctioned in the Koran.
Muhammad was a violent man. He saw himself as the instrument of Allah to kill the infidels and the ones who went against him or what he saw as the cause of Allah. He lived a violent life, and his followers have taken his example.
While it is true that there are violent men who claim to be Christians there is no support in the life of Jesus for violence, there is no passages in the New Testament that promotes or justifies revenge. Jesus lived a life of peace and is called the prince of Peace. This is also fact, he even was killed without taking up arms against his killers and on the Cross asked God to forgive them. The statement you made or rather the question ...
Quote(jeehad)Now, tell me Doesn't it say in Christianity whoever dies a Christian? Or dies defending Gods religion will surely enter paradise?
the answer is a resounding NO. There is no such tenant in Christianity. There are talk about people who die as martyrs,being killed WITHOUT taking up arms, praying for their enemies and blessing the ones who kill them, but nowhere is a Christian encouraged to use violence as a means of getting revenge or spreading the gospel. It is a non-violent religion.
Now this is the facts that we see before us, and my statements are made based on these facts.
I believe that you cannot have it both ways, you cannot state the right of one to defend yourself using violence, and then claim that you are not a violent man. If you use violence to solve a problem......by definition you are a violent man. If a religion states its followers may can should or must use violence in defense of its tenants it is by definition a religion who believes that Violence is a accepted means to an end and then again by definition ......a violent religion.
I am truly sorry for the hurt and injustice and pain the people living in the mid east has suffered at the hands of the powers in the west. This is however not the subject of our discussion.
Regards Mustardseed
Hey mustardseed and jeehad. I was involved with a heated debate over a similar religious topic not too long ago. It stemmed from this here thread, on another forum. It went back and forth until it seemed like there would be no end. And that is when I realized that there would be no end. These type of things cannot be settled. Mustardseed, you have your beliefs. Jeehad, you have your beliefs. So just end it at that. Stop trying to confince eachother that your are right. Because who cares? Who cares what anyone else thinks? Thats not important. You should know this. Just agree to dissagree, stop judging eachothers characters, and let eachother have your own belief. All that debates like this cause is stress and anger. Because, even if one of you do wind up convincing the other... which WILL NEVER HAPPEN... what good will come of that anyway? NOTHING.
(http://clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Fool/appl.gif)
Well said!! I second that and third that and fourth that!
I'm sorry but the comments MustardSeed is making are absolutely ABSURD. Your saying most of the arab world is illiterate? HELLO... The Muslims invented algebra, the base function for mathematics, medicine and many other contributions to science and technology.. In fact the Islamic empire flourished into the greatest civilization at that time period. Look at the Christians history! the entire History is a constant struggle for ethnic and racial cleansing.Christianity couldn't even survive without separating Church from State, because of the conflicting scientific parallels in the bible(I posted it but YOU STILL FAILED TO form a rebuttle as usual). Lets take Spain for an example.When the Muslims ruled Spain, JEWS CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS were living side by side with each other in harmony, UNTIL Queen Isabella ordered anyone who did not take up roman catholicism to leave..... Earlier I just wrote you a speech on the reasons of terrorism and you still justifiably account it for the religion of Islam? I JUST REFUTED EACH OF YOUR CLAIMS and you still cannot rebuttal such facts... Right now I'm wondering if you even read what I say... It seems as though all your claims are the same unchanged without any proof to back up. Btw you say "martyrdom" isnt in Christianity but answer this, didn't Jesus die for our sins? What difference does it make that Jesus died on the cross for us and human beings dying for God? See, you are misinterpreting the meaning of true "martyrdom" with the media conceptions. MArtyrdom is not suicide bombing, or killing a crapload of innocent lives... In fact true martyrdom is one who struggles in the way of God this is known as a Mujahid. One who studies for the sake of understanding Gods "ideas" is considered a martyr. One who defends himself against oppression,hate violence is a martyr. One who stands up for what they believe in is a Martyr.Muhammed once said that the ink of a scholar is holier then the blood of a martyr. The problem with you MustardSeed is you presume these ideas which have stigmas attached to them as apart of the Islamic religion WHEN YOU YOURSELF know its just some media bovine excrement used to stir a population of people into a war. Now, you say "using violence to fight violence isn't the answer" Islam tells us to incline towards PEACE with the enemy first. This was a routine Muhammed(pbuh) used when dealing with the Meccans where he proposed FREEDOM to live with there own beliefs. Imagine, he sat next to people who killed his family to discuss peace prepositions(this is all historically documented). The Meccans refused this offer! Now, tell me... If a giant army of Arabs were going to invade the USA do you think the US will sit there and allow such a thing to occur? NO, OF COURSE NOT! Force is not acceptable to be used on the innocence in wars. Islam teaches to defend yourself but to never incite your hatred among people.
"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression." (5:2).
"And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:8)..
Please do not make your judgments based on the ideas of what the media tells you. Form them from your own learning, and as you have demonstrated to me that you are completely unlearned in history,politics and even religion. For the AstralPulse community, I'm DEARLY DEARLY DEARLY sorry for continuing this ongoing debate, but you all must understand as a Muslim I must defend My beliefs and explain such matters to a confused person. I am but only 16 years old and I understand that I HAVE ALOT to learn, but it is my duty to use as much as I understand and know to rid of this Islamophobia produced by western civilizations.
P.S I'm still waiting on a response to the scientific errors in the bible :P
Dear Jeehad
I realise that our discussion has gone on too long. I have already adressed the issues you refer to, but you have rejected my line of argument as being absurd. I therefor concede that we simply do not agree and can no longer in earnest discuss the subject.
Regards Mustardseed
In case you missed this post, it was intended for Novice consider this article
Status of Muslim Societies around the World
Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,
(Retd. Scientist (Deputy Director), National Botanical Research Institute, Lucknow)
Address: C / 3-2 Shahid Apartments, Golaganj, Lucknow - 226 018
Tel. : 0522-2610683 Email: mihfarooqi@satyam.net.in
There was a time when Islamic Civilization was considered to be the most advanced, tolerant and progressive Civilization in the world. This was mainly because of their accomplishments in practically all the disciplines of knowledge. After 16th century AD, the situation changed drastically. Learning and inquiry was no more the motto of the Muslims with the result that today they occupy the lowest position in the ladder of the world. They are educationally backward, scientifically marginal, politically insignificant and economically poor. This is the present status of the entire Ummah amongst the comity of nations.
Some years back, a well-known economist, Dr Kenneth David, presented World Bank Survey of 1980, on the educational and economic status of religious societies of the world in his book entitled "The Cultural Environment of International Business". UNDP in 1996 also presented an exhaustive status report of UN Member counties. Since then Human Development Index reports are being issued every year for about one hundred and seventy countries. These important documents are highly revealing since they describe living conditions of all the religious societies i.e. Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, tribal religions and Muslims as well as non-religious communist society. According to these studies, Christian society is the most advanced society of the world with regard to education, health and economic wealth whereas Muslim society is the most backward on these counts. Based on the reports by David and UNDP, disparities of the status of Muslim and Christian societies are being given in the present paper.
According to Kenneth David, literacy of Christian world in 1980 was on an average 90% and about 15 countries had a literacy of 100%. On the other hand, average literacy in the Muslim countries was less than 40% and none had 100% literacy. More or less the same situation continued afterwards and in 2001 UNDP reported an average of 60 percent literacy in Islamic countries and between 95 to 100% in the Western nations of Christians. Among the literates of the Christian world, hardly 2% of the population did not complete school education whereas 50% of the so-called literates of the Muslim societies never attended modern schools. In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West. This is in contrast with the situation prevailing during Middle Ages when Christians used to travel to Muslim Spain for getting higher education in medicine, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.
Education is directly related with the economy of any society; higher the education, better the economic growth. According to Kenneth half of the Muslim population (about 1.3billion), had the per capita GDP of $ 200, whereas very few Muslim countries including oil-producing nations had the per capita income of $1000 or more. As compared to this, more than half of the Christian population had an income (per capita GDP) of $7000, and the average was around $3000.This was all about the status of the Muslim and the Christian world in 80's. After 1980, world's economic order was raised to great heights. According to UNDP report of 1999, economy of European countries advanced to the extent that their per capita income was raised to about $ 25,000 and the rest of the Christian countries saw a rise up to $10,000. In comparison with this rise of economic status of the western countries, Muslim countries lagged far behind and their average per capita GDP advanced to hardly a thousand dollars. Only few oil producing countries could manage an average per capita GNP of $5000 or more. But they constitute hardly ten per cent of the entire Muslim population. It may be stated here that as per the report in OIL AND GAS GENERAL (1998), out of 18 oil-producing countries, 10 are Muslim nations, producing 40% of the world's total petrol production. In spite of this God's gift, Muslim society is economically much weaker than the Christian society
The reports suggest that after 1980 Muslim countries could not compete with the western world in the field of economic growth. The main reason for this unfortunate situation was their rivalries amongst themselves resulting in very high expenditure on their respective defence budgets. For instance, Saudi Arabia's per capita income in 1980 was $ 7,690, which dropped to $ 7,040 in 1996 mainly because of the Iraq-Kuwait conflict. Likewise, income of Iran, Iraq and Libya (all oil producing countries) also dropped considerably. As against this dismal position, per capita income of Germany advanced from $9,580 in 1980 to $ 28,870 in 1996. Per capita incomes of Britain, France and Australia etc similarly improved tremendously.
After the Second World War, almost all the countries of the world have been busy in increasing their military capabilities. Muslim nations, inspite of the poverty of their people are also involved in this mad race for military might. They have large trained armies, which are estimated to be 100million. This is one third of the total world armed forces. After the Second World War, there has not been any major Christian-Muslim armed conflict, except the recent Iraq and Afghanistan crises but there have been several bloody wars amongst Muslim nations themselves in which millions have lost their lives.
Muslim nations spend 10-30% of their GDP towards purchasing sophisticated and deadly arms and ammunitions from the West. On the other hand, western nations spend about 10% of their wealth on their arms procurement, which is carried out within the Christian world.
According to Kenneth, there are several factors for the backwardness of the Muslim society. First and foremost is their illiteracy in general and women illiteracy in particular. Another major reason of Muslim fall is the fact that hardly 16% of population is involved in industrial production. It is important to note that 60% of Christian population is engaged in industry. High population growth is another major factor for Muslim backwardness because this rapid population rise neutralizes whatever economic development takes place in Muslim Societies. Human Development Index prepared by UNDP gives a very dismal picture of the status of literacy, health and economy of Muslim nations. In the first 25 best countries listed under HDI (2002), no Muslim country figured in the list. Barring few small oil producing Muslim nations, majority of the Islamic world lies in the middle and low categories of human development, a clear indication that the Islamic nations needs to increase their focus on human development. Latest data (2002) about the Human Development Index (HDI) and Per capita GDP of some of the important and large populated Muslim countries are as follows;
HDI Income
(Per Capita)
Indonesia: 112 850$
(Population 210 M)
Bangladesh: 139 350$
(150 M)
Pakistan, 144 500$
(1300 M)
India 127 500$
(I Billion, Muslims, 140 M)
Egypt: 120 1200$
(70 M)
Turkey 96 2700$
(65 M)
Iran 106 $1,600
(70 M)
S. Arabia 73 $9,000
(22 M)
Malaysia 58 $4,000
(25 M)
Sudan 138 $450
(30 M)
Nigeria 152 $350
(120 M)
Libya 61 $7,000
(6 M)
Morocco 126 $1,300
(30 M)
Afghanistan 145 $300
(24 M)
Iraq 74 $5,500
(2.5 M)
Tunisia 91 $2,000
(10 M)
Syria 110 $1,300
(15 M)
Algeria 73 $1,700
(30 M)
It may be stated that the few Muslim countries, which do figure between 25 to 50 HDI, are Brunei, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Bahrain and Qatar. Their per capita GDP is also comparatively higher i.e. between 10,000 to 15,000 dollars but combined population of all these Muslim countries is hardly 30 millions. One must bear in mind that total GDP of all the Arab oil producing counties (12 in numbers) is less than the GDP of Spain alone. Ironically Muslim Spain during Middle Ages had higher revenue (because of the industrial products like Textile, Paper, mineral etc) than the whole of the Christian Europe (eleventh Century AD). Today Germany alone has a GDP of 3 thousand Billion Dollars that is almost twice of the entire Muslim World. Per capita GDP of major Christian countries is also staggering. A few examples with higher Human Development Index (HDI) and per capita incomes are as below:
HDI Income
(Per Capita)
USA 7 37,000$
(270M)
Germany 18 25,000$
(90M)
UK 13 $25,000
(60M)
France, 17 $25,000
(60M)
Canada 8 $26,000
(30M)
Italy 21 $20,000
(60M)
Spain 19 $17,000
(40M)
Netherlands 5 $26,000
(15M)
Denmark 11 $31,000
(5M)
Austria 16 $25,000
(6M)
Sweden, 3 $26,000
(10M)
Switzerland 10 $41,000
(7M)
Norway 1 $40,000
(5M)
Belgium 6 $24,000
(10M)
Russia 63 $2,400
(150M)
Scientific achievement of the Muslim society cannot be considered to be of any consequence. Out of the total of 2,60,000 articles published every year on scientific research, hardly 2,500 i.e. about 1% are published in Muslim countries. One can be reminded that during Middle Ages the situation was entirely different. According to European authors of History of Science almost ninety percent of scientific literature during Middle Ages was published (in Arabic) by Muslims of Spain, Egypt, Iraq, Iran etc.
There are many other parameters, which show the backwardness of Muslim Societies in scientific field. For instance, total number of Science Ph.D.'s produced by about 450 Universities of Muslim Countries every year is less than 500, whereas in UK alone this number is 3000. According to one estimate total strength of Engineers and Scientist in Muslim world (1.30billion) is less than the scientists and engineers working in France alone (population 60million).
Well known Islamic thinker Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, once said while addressing Muslims at a Seminar, " "You have spent several nights of indifference (Urdu-ghaflat) and complacency (Urdu-sarshari). For God's sake, get up now and see how much the sun has risen and how far your co-travelers (non-Muslims) have gone ahead of you".In the same seminar Maulana also said, '"after 16th Century, the situation of knowledge (Scientific) in Muslim and Christian societies changed completely. Now Christians started following Muslims way of progressive thinking and enquiry whereas Muslims copied Christian's way of life of Middle Ages that was full of superstition, bigotry and retrograde thoughts".
Maulana Rabey Hasan Nadvi, Rector of Nadva Islamic University, Lucknow, also once wrote, "Europe (West) became the leader of the world by working hard and following the path of scientific pursuit. On the other hand we (the Muslims) became indifferent towards knowledge and lost leadership of the nations".
According to Kenneth, practically every society of the world put hindrances (in the name of religion) in scientific development during 19th and 20th Century. Buddhists Priests opposed fast changing social order. Conflicts between Catholics and Protestants were the causes for slowing development in Europe. Caste differences among Hindus were reflected in the slow growth of their society. Sectarian hatred and too much interference of religious leaders (clerics) put difficulties in proper development of Muslims nations. In this regards David Kenneth says 'the way of life (standard of living) in Muslim countries cannot be altered unless the priests (Ulema) are favourable to proposed changes."
Kenneth further elaborates that Muslim Ulema , generally ignorant of the rapid development of Science and technology in Western Nations and their high standard of living, consider the poor economic condition of the Ummah (Muslim society) to be the Divine Will. This is definitely unIslamic way of thinking. It was in this context that prominent Islamic scholars, like Afghani and Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, remarked, "Ulema ignorant of modern knowledge can not serve the Ummah". Maulana Abul Hasan Ali Nadvi, Founder Member of Rabita al-alam al-Islami (Muslim World League), also expressed his anguish over Muslim's indifference towards modern knowledge by saying, "Muslims forgot their own scientific way of thinking and followed only traditional knowledge. They therefore lagged behind in Science and Technology and thus became slaves of the scientifically advanced West". Mahathir Mohammad, Prime Minister of Malaysia also declared during the Islamic Conference in Kuala Lumpur recently that, " it is necessary for Muslims to give up their illogical beliefs and regressing thoughts and be prepared to face the challenges of the fast changing social order." He also cautioned, (at a meeting in London) ".our present predicament is not pre-ordained by Allah.It is entirely due to our own doing. We rely merely on praying to Allah for help when Allah has said in the Quran that we have to help ourselves before He will help us. To ward off attacks on us, we must learn science and technology and consider acquiring modern knowledge as the part of ibadah" If the Muslim Societies around the world do not heed the advice of Mahathir, they are then doomed. Long back Philosopher- Poet Iqbal had rightly said ' "Teri barbadiyon ke mashware hain aasmanon mein" (There are clear indications (planning) in the sky of your fall from grace'. (If you do not realize the importance of necessary change)
READ MY WHOLE POST... VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DO SO!
Sorry for the late response. First of all, I would not deny the fact that there is illiteracy in the Muslim world but I won't deny that illiteracy is everywhere.... But you also cannot deny the fact that illiteracy rate in the Christian world is very much evident as well! Look at South America!!! Besides this fact, what you are saying is that I myself am stupid because I believe in such verses which I find absolutely insulting !!! Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming, and you have safely concluded that Muslims are stupid??????? First of all, Literacy does not mean one is stupid. The prophet Muhammed was illiterate but by his actions dealings and justly the way he acted made him seem smarter then the average man! you wanna know whats funny? Considering the fact that any blind little child can pick up a bible and spot the errors!! Do you not think that is stupid? I mean have you even read the bible yourself brother? Considering what you have shown me you have either not read your own scripture OR simply are a hypocrite in your own words. Remember, I'm still being patient for a response on the scientific errors in the bible, or let em guess you don't believe in those verses?
I find it hypocritical and judgmental of you to make assumptions on scientific verses in the Quran when you honestly have not even read any of them, so to do you a favor I will post a nice list of these verses then give you a short explanation!
1) in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light."
Clearly this shows us that Allah sbwt is telling mankind that the sun emmits its own light WHILST THE MOON IS REFLECTING LIGHT.This was not discovered until hundreds of years after the Quranic revelation to Muhammad. So tell me? How can an illiterate man known such a thing???
2)in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)".
Interesting how the Greeks themselves said the sun was stationary, whilst the Arabs(who at that time had absolutely no scientific contribution to the world until hundreds of years later) knew such things? are you telling me the Meccans were more advanced in science then the Greeks? So again how could an illiterate man known such things?
3)78, verse 6-7 "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains as pegs". and
chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them"
What is the purpose of mountains? The Quran CLEARLY tells us that mountains indeed hold the earth together!! Now, this sort of scientifical statement was NOWHERE TO BE SEEN in past civilizations only hundreds if not thousands of years after the quranic revelation to Muhammad! How could an illiterate man known such a thing?
4)In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass" and
in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........"
This is an unbelievable statement. When 2 seas meet together it is said that the salt concentration in both are completely different and remain unchanged. What I mean by this is, if you were to take 2 liquids and mix them together what would happen? The inevitable answer is they would mix!! But ironically enough when 2 seas are merged together, they DO NOT MIX WITH EACHOTHER BUT instead they remain unchanged in there own channel!! NOW TELL ME! Unless Muhammed flew on his magical carpet to where seas meet together, then had a microscope to detect such matters!! THEN DESTROYED THE MICROSCOPE SO LATER GENERATIONS CANNOT SEE!It is absolutely impossible for him or any person of that time period to have known such things thus concluding, the Quran is a true revelation from God almighty.
5)In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe"
Can you believe, that the deserts of Arabia!!Where there was scarcity, they could have guessed such a fact? which was later concluded by Charles Darwin and many modern scientists which proved that 70% of our bodies are composed of water! And that it is inherent in our existence to have been produced from water? Muhammad must have been a doctor too eh!!!
6) in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men."
Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies. so your telling me Muhammad was SOO observant that he studied bees to? Oh so he was learned in zoology too eh???
7) "Surely those who disbelieve our signs, We shall burn them at a fire. As often as
their skins are wholly burned, we shall give them in exchange other skins so that they may keep tasting the punishment [i.e keep feeling the pain of burning]." (Koran 4:56)
Interesting? How up until 60 years ago mankind thought that pain came from nervse receptors!! We use to think that pain and feeling was a result of our central nerves which run down our backbone and unto every tissue of our organs and body!! Although We have discovered that under the skin there are pain receptors which send signals to these nerves! that is why nowadays burn victims were to be poked with a small needle to see if these receptors were damaged in any way!! Amazing how the Quran knew such things. I guess Muhammad was a doctor after all.
8) "And the sky We built it with might, and we cause the expansion of it."
(Koran 51:47)
approximately 70 years ago edwin hubble discovered the Universe was red shifted after analyzing it with his telescope. A red shifted universe means that the universe originated from one point and is slowly expanding or growing away from the origin. Amazing, how the Quran could have stated such a thing! Maybe Muhammad had a telescope hidden in his cave then destroyed it so MANKIND CANNOT SEE MWUAHAHAHA.
9)"(God is)The Knower of the unapparent.
Not an atom's weight in the skies or the earth, nor anything smaller than that,
or larger, escapes him, but is in a clear record." (Koran 34:3)
Many centuries before Muhammed was born, there was a well known theory of ATOMISM, advanced by the Greeks, Democritus in particular, who lived in the 4th century BC. Democritus and the people who came after him assumed that the material world is made up of tiny indivisible particles called atoms, the smallest pieces of matter,each having the same mass, the smallest unit mass possible. The Arabs used to deal in the same concept. The word in Arabic, ZARRA, most commonly meant that.
10)Then We placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging. Then fashioned the seed into a leech.. (Koran 23:13-14)
The Koran is known to be the first book to give microscopic details of human embryology, hundreds of years before the discovery of the microscope! The Koran contains information on embryology which was not discovered till about 30 years back and certain details were new even to modern scientists but were immediately confirmed as being accurate.If you take a microscopic picture of a human embryo of days 7-24 and place it next to a picture of a leech, they both look identical. Not only do they look the same but they function in the same way too. Just like a leech derives nourishment from its host's blood, the embryo derives nourishment from the decidua or the pregnant endometrium.
Bro, this is just 6 out of over a thousand scientific verses available in the Holy Quran. To say Muslims are stupid for believing such things is absolutely and totally offending,. Maybe Muslims are not as stupid as you may think??? Maybe it could just be that you are not learned in science??? Possible? Who else knows about creation other then the creator himself? Therefore, I ask you to refute these verses and I will be more then happy to form a rebuttle. That is why the holy Quran was truly a revelation from the almighty Lord of the Universe. Inshallah may allah bless you and open your eyes to these things ameen.
Peace and blessings.
The post right above mine is very informative; I hope people read it instead of saying "Just another long post I'm not going to read." :roll:
Quote from: Jeehad on February 18, 2007, 18:16:31
Sorry for the late response. First of all, I would not deny the fact that there is illiteracy in the Muslim world but I won't deny that illiteracy is everywhere.... But you also cannot deny the fact that illiteracy rate in the Christian world is very much evident as well! Look at South America!!! Besides this fact, what you are saying is that I myself am stupid because I believe in such verses which I find absolutely insulting !!! Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming, and you have safely concluded that Muslims are stupid??????? First of all, Literacy does not mean one is stupid. The prophet Muhammed was illiterate but by his actions dealings and justly the way he acted made him seem smarter then the average man! you wanna know whats funny? Considering the fact that any blind little child can pick up a bible and spot the errors!! Do you not think that is stupid? I mean have you even read the bible yourself brother? Considering what you have shown me you have either not read your own scripture OR simply are a hypocrite in your own words. Remember, I'm still being patient for a response on the scientific errors in the bible, or let em guess you don't believe in those verses?
Ok here we go again. :-D let me try once more Jeehad. First of all let me assure you that I do not think you are stupid, nor do I think that Muslims are stupid. What I said was that they are illiterate and possibly ignorant. Now granted there are educated Muslims worldwide but the masses of Muslims the overwhelming majority are not. Because of this illiteracy they are easily controlled and manipulated by their leaders. The illiterate, as a rule are!. Since they do not have the faculties or the education or even information available, to sift the various claims they are being served by their clergy, they have to choose who they BELIEVE. Socially it is understandable, that they do not trust the west, and the information emerging from the west in regards to science and what have you, is more often than not seen as propaganda. They have been taught that the west is an enemy of Islam and they believe it. The result is that they are on numerous occasions stirred into a rage, against infidels who they are told, are trying to attack their sacred beliefs. This is the sad consequence of such illiteracy and it is observed all over the world, most recent in the case of the Muhammad drawings. I happen to be a close personal friend of one of the artists that drew these pictures, and he is presently living in hiding, having had several attempts on his life, by such overly zealous believers. Is that acceptable to you?
You seem to imply that this is the same in Christianity but if you look closer it is not the case.
You say :
Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming well I did and conclude that you either do not know how the world looks or don't care. The literacy rate of the Muslims in the Mideast is NOT well above average, it may be slightly above the average for Muslim countries, but as I showed you below it is vastly below the world literacy rate and that of the Christian world. THIS WAS WHAT WE DISCUSSED?. You also claim that the Islamic population in Europe and North America is overwhelming. Well I don't know how tell you this but it is not true, where do you draw this fact . It is wrong. The Islamic population in Europe is marginal, around 6% and in North America it is a meager 1.4%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country
Making statements like this is either a sign that you do not want to know reality or simply do not believe it, if that is the case we cannot even discuss this.
Besides this glaring discrepancy, you seem to make a point of bringing into question the Bible, almost continually. This seem to stem from the fact that you have been taught, that the Koran is Superior to the Bible, but this has up to now not had any part in the discussion except when you have brought it to the table. Let me just state categorically that the very fact that Christians are as a body or group educated, has facilitated the spread of a Beliefystem built on FAITH in Jesus and not faith in the leadership in our countries who claim to be Christian. As a group Christians have accepted that the Bible (OT)contains a vast array of stories and allegories and wishful thinking, not to be taken literally but to be seen as a allegory. Even the NT is suspect in part. We as a body do not believe it is our duty to defeat people who think differently than we do. We are not easily whipped into a frenzy by Fundamentalists who endorse violence. These Fundies most of whom live in the USA are marginal.
This is where we differ. We have chosen to live and model our lives after Jesus as he is described in the New Testament. We believe in non-violence tolerance, and most assuredly in Love. Even loving your fellow man who may be Hindu Buddist or even Muslim. Ours is not a war of the physical dimension but a spiritual war, a war to help those who suffer, and bring peace to those who are in turmoil. To bring equal opportunity and equality to the ones we meet be it in our own countries or elsewhere. Untold thousands of Christian charities are actively engaged in this effort and everywhere you will find them. They do not only help and aid Christians but everyone. As I have told you I myself have worked in this field for 30 years and not once have I favored those of my own faith, and my life is very small, thousands are engaged in such activities worldwide.
Regarding the scientific statements let me first ask you a question. If the Koran is proved wrong in one statement would that suffice you. If it is proven that even one claim in the Koran is incorrect it would indicate that all of it could be. Do we share this opinion?
Let me know
Regards Mustardseed
I can't be arsed to go through this entire thread... but all conceptual realities are a myth... even our being here on earth and interacting with each other. We make it all up as we go along. This reality is as "real" as any sleeping dream and so are any stories within perceptual "reality." So from one perspective, Jesus is a myth but so are you and I. On the other hand, nothing is a myth and every thought or idea is real. It all depends on ones perspective.
Let me get back to you tomorrow morning. I have to work on my biology ISU, Sorry for the late response but I assure you the next post will be a pwner:P While your at it please refute the scientific errors in the bible I posted earlier!
Peace
Quote from: Jeehad on February 19, 2007, 16:29:39
While your at it please refute the scientific errors in the bible I posted earlier!
Yes, please.
Jesus and Muhammad both responded to God in the way in which they were culturally conditioned. It's hard to top Jesus in his radical ethic of love and non-retaliation against a Jewish Pharisaic legalism that too often put rules over the welfare of people. But it's also true that Muhammad restored a system of justice and fairness to an Arab culture that was anything but just and fair.
What I'm sick and tired of are the followers of these two guys who seem to miss the essence of what their masters taught.
Who cannot be troubled when mobs of Muslims go nuts and kill people because of a cartoon? But this is not the spirit of other Muslims I've met across the world. They interpret their leader and his scripture in a way that is tolerant of other belief systems.
I'm heartbroken because members of my own family in Ireland have blown each other to bits because of their friggin' Christianity -- the Catholics versus the Protestants (Muslim extremists aren't the only terrorists who use bombs). And in the U.S., my youngest daughter (an adopted Puerto Rican living in a our "white" family), has been subjected to the bigotry of several "Christians" who were taught that she was inferior because of her skin color (she's drop dead beautiful by the way!). But this is not the spirit of other Christians I've met around the world who love unconditionally.
Give me a break. We are never going to convince each other by our words. That's the down side of these internet posts. The convincing comes by the way we live our faith in those who point the way to a better world of love and justice for all. I'd better quit because I feel a bigger rant coming on! Bless you all for defending what you believe, just keep it civil. DH
DH: I couldn't agree more!
Dear Jeehad
Before I get into this please let me assure you that I am not trying to offend you, it just happens that the subject matter in my post may be offensive to you.
This thread is called "Jesus and Christianity revealed as a myth". This was what caught my eye as I read it and I posted here, stating that the claims made, were not revealing anything. Gradually it has turned into you and I debating Islam. So for the record let me explain my point of view. This is actually not a new debate but was one of the first things that were debated here on the pulse, when it first started many years ago. In the Mother of all threads, ha, old timers remember that thread; it was quite the rage in its time. Because of that thread it was decided to create separate categories and especially a section for world religions. So the web page evolved you can say.
In that thread a similar claim was made. That the Bible (and the Koran subsequently) were a mere fictive story, created by the Jews (first and then Muhammad I suppose), some of the brightest and most knowledgeable people were brought in and made moderators in order to debate and substantiate this claim, among them Beth a very learned professor and author, who has since written a book on a similar subject. Her and I differ in opinion but have since become very good friends, and keep up communications once in a while.
On Beths recommendation I researched the subject personally and one could say, in depth for a number of years. I read the latest and as yet unpublished book on the subject by a Professor Lempke, as well as a LOT of articles and books.
I BELIEVE in Creation, and I BELIEVE it happened as the Bible describes, the Flood, the Exodus and the whole caboodle. This to a scientist is horrifying. A man of science cannot accept that someone out there believes in something that he cannot prove true. I am very aware that according to science my BELIEF may be just that a belief, it may have never happened, but it does not matter to me if there are things in the Bible that never happened, my faith is not in the stories but in the spirit behind it all. You see I believe in the Cosmic reality that sacrifice for the sake of others , giving without expecting anything in return and enduring hardships cheerfully etc etc the very attributes ascribed to Jesus, are actual truths. It works. What you give out in life comes back to you, the karmic principles in play.
I personally find it too much of a coincidence that there are gaps in the fossil records, missing links and what have you, and that science every year seems to get closer to accepting that the Spiritual realm may indeed be a fact, but I cannot prove my faith, through science. As a matter of fact if science was to be the only thing used to validate my beliefs would all be unrealistic, any FAITH would. OBEs would as well, because they are............unprovable. I know that out in net-land there are thousands of Christians who have made it their life project to prove that every word in the Bible is correct, so they can be the chosen people and they twist and turn and they argue and they debate, all for nothing. In Koran land the same is the case. There are certain Muslims that don't care how it happened, they love Allah and love to pray to him, they are socially conditioned to live their faith, but there are others as well. There are Muslims who see the Koran as a opportunity to elevate themselves and their faith to be the ultimate reality and they twist and turn as well. They cut a toe or a heel to make the shoe fit, but their reality is just the same as that of the Christians. We cannot prove a thing, it could all be a fairytale, it is possible. I have tried to explain that to you by making you examine the Koran, by asking you to see the Koran in context with Muslim society, and the fundamentalists for what they are.
The notion, that by proving that the Bible is inferior to the Koran, you can lift the Koran into the category of provable by science is to most scientists ludicrous. It would be similar to saying that by making a more in debt sequel to a movie you prove it as reality. Our two books stand and fall together. I noticed that in your first posts you were quite benevolent to me and stated some generous affirmations regarding the Bible, but I do not need that.
As someone concluded a long time ago in that thread, "you cannot prove a negative this made sense to me. If God created the world in 7 days, and is as much in control as I believe he is we are mere figures in a elaborate video game, free will is our control console but we are not endowed with the mental capacity or facility to understand God and how it is all working. All we get is a glimpse of it now and then. We don't need to prove anything but just follow the rules of the game, duck when its best to duck and jump when its best to jump. In this scenario, it is my belief that Muslims are down a blind alley, they jump at all the wrong times as well and often don't duck at all. They don't want to face the reality of the "game" but insist on being above the rules of life.
As a result they have as a people as a religion become marginalized in the world today. Their insistence on making their own rules and expecting everyone to follow them is going to be their demise. Let me level with you Jeehad, the world will never become Muslim, it just ain't gonna happen, the people of the world will never let themselves become ruled by Sharia law. In the words of a famous movie star, "you live in a dream world Neo". No arguing debating and cajoling will change the fact that Islam is a violent religion one who demeans its prospective convert, and promotes conversion by the means of Violence. Its followers, though many of them sweet individuals, are predominantly illiterate as well as socially isolated and because of this fact, the leaders of the faith has succeeded in actually making them believe a variety of untruths. It seems that they will believe anything, they are told. Conspiracies flourish in the Mideast, and most folks there are ignorant regarding major issues that every schoolchild knows in the west.
So this is my statement to you on this day. I believe in the Bible. Creation I cannot prove it but believe it, I believe in the Exodus and on an on. I most of all believe in Jesus and the principles of love that he taught. Even if he is a fairytale as well, I still believe in what the book teaches, love is stronger than hate, non violence will always conquer and what you dish out in life is bound to come back to you.
Regards Mustardseed
set patterns incapable of adaptability only offer a better cage. thruth is outside of all patterns.
...or is it ?
anyways i get your drift MS but you need to learn respect onto others as well. its fine that you blabber on and on how loving bible/jesus/god/christians is but them in same breath trample islam.
i don't conform to any religion nor to any religious viewpoint of what a god or man should be - religion to me is a restriction of the human being;
a safety net, safety blanket, 'let god do everything for me', 'i don't take responsibility for myself', 'lets dump our problems on a deity'. 'lets not ask questions' or blindly follow some book - how can a GOD be scribed down into a single book ?
all religions was made by man for man - which really can't be proven or unproven, but hec who really cares ?
nevertheless as you stated in the very beginning of this topic which you two seemed to forget very quickly:
QuoteBeware that you do not tear down something you do not understand and hurt people who have done you no harm my friend.
QuoteYou yourself consider, what you "know" to be "the truth" but it is infact only your opinion and research.
and so on...
besides. imho
you are here to walk your path by your own and not by someone, something or a book.
Well you have a right to believe whatever you do as well. I did not think I was blabbering, but maybe I was :-D. As for trampling on Islam. I do not subscribe to your beliefs, and if they allow you to stand by and in your supposed, neutrality and lukewarm political correctness, extending respect to a religion who foster and endorse violence hatred and intolerance.........well thats your choice. Mine does not give me this option, though I respect people who just happen to be brought up in a Muslim society, I do not respect their religion, and I never will. I believe in love yes but I also believe in telling the truth about the subject, and please dont give me this "stuf" about "everything is truth and it is the truth to them and bla bla". Though I am non violent I will speak my mind and give my opinion. A religion who endorses and encourages violence has no rights, it should be adresses for what it is, and not respected. Muslims spurred on by passages in the Koran, are threatening world peace. The rulers of Islam, the Immams are not "here for the beer", they are waging not merely war, for social justice but HOLY war, to make the world Islamic. Americans are bombing thousands of innocent people, and while their religion obviously does not endorse it, they too claim they are fighting for God. This is a sick society and Islam is in my opinion a sick religion. I will not only march in demonstrations against a war that I consider unjust, but also talk loud in public debates about Islams and what I consider its inhuman hateful doctrine. I will have my say in this forum, and if you consider this hard to take thats your problem. If you cant handle a frank discussion about these things, but instead succumb to this nauseating rhetoric of showing respect, go ahead and show your support, ignorance and political correctness is what they thrive on. Did you even read the thread? Jeehad considers it "mercy" to behead an enemy of islam instead of hanging him ..........HELLO PEOPLE!!!!!!!
I will leave you with a interesting quote from a Mr. Niemoller who lived in occupied Holland at the time of Nazi occupation, he said:
First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
It is my opinion that the majority of people in the wold is simply s*** scared of the Muslims, look at the Cartoons killings and the rampage that occured. It sickens me
-deleted, I shouldn't have made such a comment.-
Edit again: I urge everyone to actually read this thread, so they will know the false claims Mustardseed is making.
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 20, 2007, 17:57:44
Well you have a right to believe whatever you do as well. I did not think I was blabbering, but maybe I was :-D. As for trampling on Islam. I do not subscribe to your beliefs, and if they allow you to stand by and in your supposed, neutrality and lukewarm political correctness, extending respect to a religion who foster and endorse violence hatred and intolerance.........well thats your choice. Mine does not give me this option, though I respect people who just happen to be brought up in a Muslim society, I do not respect their religion, and I never will. I believe in love yes but I also believe in telling the truth about the subject, and please dont give me this "stuf" about "everything is truth and it is the truth to them and bla bla". Though I am non violent I will speak my mind and give my opinion. A religion who endorses and encourages violence has no rights, it should be adresses for what it is, and not respected. Muslims spurred on by passages in the Koran, are threatening world peace. The rulers of Islam, the Immams are not "here for the beer", they are waging not merely war, for social justice but HOLY war, to make the world Islamic. Americans are bombing thousands of innocent people, and while their religion obviously does not endorse it, they too claim they are fighting for God. This is a sick society and Islam is in my opinion a sick religion. I will not only march in demonstrations against a war that I consider unjust, but also talk loud in public debates about Islams and what I consider its inhuman hateful doctrine. I will have my say in this forum, and if you consider this hard to take thats your problem. If you cant handle a frank discussion about these things, but instead succumb to this nauseating rhetoric of showing respect, go ahead and show your support, ignorance and political correctness is what they thrive on. Did you even read the thread? Jeehad considers it "mercy" to behead an enemy of islam instead of hanging him ..........HELLO PEOPLE!!!!!!!
I will leave you with a interesting quote from a Mr. Niemoller who lived in occupied Holland at the time of Nazi occupation, he said:
First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.
Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
It is my opinion that the majority of people in the wold is simply s*** scared of the Muslims, look at the Cartoons killings and the rampage that occured. It sickens me
You see here is where you just don't get it. I understand that this thread is about Jesus pbuh but the fact of the matter is you started knitpicking a debate with me. Your claiming things which are completely and absolutely demonising and false about my own religion. Your claims of Islam as a religion of "terror" which threatens world peace is nothing but media propaganda being propagated to express a new age of occupation on Muslim lands. You still fail to realize that the fighting in the Middle East is due to the corruption caused by the western government for the past 5 decades instead of religious motivation to "kill infidels." You have the wrong Idea, and by learning history you will realize that through historical references we can see the same things have occurred. During the Christian era in pagan Rome, the romans persecuted and layed similar blames of "terrorism" and brutality charges on Christians to give an excuse to persecute them! Hitler even burned the Reich to give an international reason to go to war with communist Russia. Bush is a proud Christian! But I never in my right mind would have believed he represented the Good of Christianity. Bush orders the bombing of Iraqi Children? Gives 69% of foreign Aid to Israel, a nation which has suppressed Palestinian sunder illegal occupation and brutal conditions not even faced by the majority of the poorest regions on earth! Despite all this I still believe in the Message Jesus propagated as being the true divine call to God and never attached stigmas to Christians. Instead of reading bovine excrement in skeptics annotated I suggest you read the Holy Quran and believe me your claims will be resolved.The Holy Quran tells you a story about certain peoples, and for you to extract certain bits and portray it as the central message is totally false. Never in the Quran does God command mankind to simply kill non believers! God commands justice and the doing of good kin and if you can't see that then i'm sorry to say but you are a very judgmental person. This whole conversation has just been me trying to defending claims which you make and yet you still agree with those claims EVEN THOUGH you cannot form a rebuttal against the defenses I have made. The reason why I posted the Christian errors in a scientific perspective of the bible is I wanted to show you the errors in Christianity! you tried disproving the Islamic claims as everything was indeed created in pairs, but you saw that it takes a man to deeply learn the nature of subatomic particles to truly understand this claim. The whole basis of religion is an explanation for creation, science explains How God created and it does not deny any facts of a supreme creator at all but in fact it actually agrees upon this statement. The modern revolution of science has shown claims that indeed life has been created perfectly and is a result of a supreme creator. MustardSeed you want to talk [politics we can talk politics! Look at the first 2 world wars were the propagated by Muslim extremists??? NO BUT IN FACT CHRISTIANS HUNGER FOR POWER MONEY AND GREED! It is not a religious motivation to kill man but a essence in mankind.We are power hungry as a human species and whether your black blue read or white this is constant struggle you will face! The question I wanna leave you all with tonight is how do you not expect people to fight? After you've bombed there homes? There family killed? Forces into refugee camps? Displaced millions of civilians? Honestly how do you not expect people to respond? Imagine If I supressed the American people for 54 years! It's the fact that the Us has been supporting ILLIGAL OCCUPATION SHUNNED BY UN RESOLUTION 54/59 AS ILLIGAL!! But why is the US supporting such horrid behabviours of suppressng and occupying a population which reaches the densest WORLDWIDE?? It must have its religious routes in chrisitanity. Human nature has it that there will be resistance formed and it is not my ideal to blame it on there religions! Before you lay judgments you must understand the conditions in occupied regions!In war striken regions! We as muslims feel a tremendous amount of anxiety for our people being slaughtered by your own government and what do youe xpect of us? IF YOU WANT TERRORISM TO STOP THEN SIMPLY STOP KILLING US. It's funny how if terrorism was truly a result of ISlam then wat happened 20 years ago? When people have never even heard of such a term? Why has this huge outbreak been occuring in the past 10 years???? Please MustardSeed your comments are completely insulting and ignorant! Break out of this nutshell and see the world for what it reall is I beg of you all to watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkD3nchD0OM
READ IT YOURSELF INSTEAD OF ASKING THE GOVERNMENT WHY!
Yea I read your posts Goober, but I did not bother to answer them. I know your opinion and understand where you come from. It is obvious to me that while you may think I am an idiot and not a Christian :roll: in my eyes you are just a kid. A young boy with virtually no life experience, full of .......well whatever. You have obviously taken it on yourself to lecture me, just go ahead boy, you are of no consequence. Play another video game get stoned or study your books, get up and go to school when your mom calls you. Relax.....in the safe western society where you live you can afford to live in your dreamworld. In the real world you will find that as you grow up your opinions will change. Harass me or flame me whatever, as I said you are of no consequence. Your opinion and your carefully devised rebuttals are just a few words, just a burp from a baby, easily dealt with son.
Regards Mustardseed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr6Sr8Ch2zs&NR
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 20, 2007, 22:44:31
Yea I read your posts Goober, but I did not bother to answer them. I know your opinion and understand where you come from. It is obvious to me that while you may think I am an idiot and not a Christian :roll: in my eyes you are just a kid. A young boy with virtually no life experience, full of .......well whatever. You have obviously taken it on yourself to lecture me, just go ahead boy, you are of no consequence. Play another video game get stoned or study your books, get up and go to school when your mom calls you. Relax.....in the safe western society where you live you can afford to live in your dreamworld. In the real world you will find that as you grow up your opinions will change. Harass me or flame me whatever, as I said you are of no consequence. Your opinion and your carefully devised rebuttals are just a few words, just a burp from a baby, easily dealt with son.
Regards Mustardseed
You make ( incorrect ) assumptions about my life because you can not refute the evidence I've provided to you. This is obvious. You assume I live in a great place, with a great, luxurious house. You are wrong. I live in poverty-stricken Mississippi, in the ghetto, where I am shot at for simply riding my bike into a certain area. You do not know my life. I payed for the computer I am typing on by myself, I help pay for the internet monthly, and I do all of the chores in the house, that includes my other two brothers chores, in the dead of night simply because my parents work all day, and I take great joy from seeing the smiles on their faces when waking up to a clean house. This is not my dreamworld, but I am grateful for it anyway. Don't claim you know me, ever again.
Just for the heck of it, I'll post some Bible verses you just ignored with that post of yours.
"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. " Romans 12:14
"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen." Ephesians 4:29
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13
"Do not be deceived with empty words, brethren, because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." - Ephesians 5 something. I can't remember.
Man I don't know why religious people or low level beings are so insistent to share their stupidity and foolishness about spirituality!!!! the so called religious people have been brainwashed because of their low level of consciousness.. the only truth is written only in the bible.. huh!!
Quote from: mon9999 on February 21, 2007, 11:18:40
Man I don't know why religious people or low level beings are so insistent to share their stupidity and foolishness about spirituality!!!! the so called religious people have been brainwashed because of their low level of consciousness.. the only truth is written only in the bible.. huh!!
Please prove any of your statements...
No religion holds absolute truth.
Don't follow mainstream society, establish your own beliefs.
Quote from: Principle on February 21, 2007, 22:53:16
No religion holds absolute truth.
Don't follow mainstream society, establish your own beliefs.
Well, its really all relative to the person! A Christian will believe there religion holds the truth whilst a Jew will think otherwise and etc etc. I don't think, thinking your own religion holds the truth is wrong but being close minded on the topic and not willing toe explore other beliefs is totally and absolutely unacceptable. I think when a person makes a enclosed statement such as "MY religion is perfect" Surely that person must have analyzed various faiths and is willing to learn from them. We all have something to learn in this world but no matter what beliefs have been slurred at me I have remained with a dominate opinion that seeking submission through the Will of ONE God(Islam) is the perfect path. I am willing to discuss this statement as I have discussed with Mustardseed if anyone is willing. But you also must understand the nature of "faith." I believe faith alone is blind and logic alone is ignorance. In order for a man to be able follow a religious or spiritual ideology he must put 50% faith and 50% logic into such an equation. See, the duty of a religious person is not to live in a closed minded bubble because if he/she is truly faithful in there beliefs then they are willing to learn and understand a variety of different ideologies. Although, your presumption about religion is that keeping a firm stance on your beliefs is wrong, but you shuld think otherwise.
It's not relative when certain so-called truths are debunked.
It's wrong to be close minded and unwilling to accept anything different,
Unfortunetly, this is the case with many individuals who are Religious.
Now the following is going to be a controversal statement,
However it is my personal opinion / belief.
'Religious Literature is not the Word of God, but the Word of Man.'
religions were created to control the mass.. be good like sheepherds or else you will burn in hell!!
we don't need a God because we are God. we are what he is!! we create our own reality! we are the creator! know thyself not jesus, etc. etc. its all about remembering who we are and why we are here!!
to realize that we are a spirit having a physical experience not physical beings trying to have a spiritual experience.. its all about self-realization
Quotewe don't need a God because we are God. we are what he is!! we create our own reality!
I agree that we are God, and therefore cocreators- the problem is we forget and start to unconsciously create and that's why the world is not as joyful as we could make it. So we need to be reminded of this, hence comes organized spirituality. Soon enough, it becomes religion, and
Quotereligions were created to control the mass.. be good like sheepherds or else you will burn in hell!!
.
It's self defeating. We create religion to remember, start to use it for power (which indicates that we didn't remember) and then suppress the knowledge.
So it's my opinion that the problem doesn't lie with religion per se, it lies with the way we use it. And no, I don't have a solution. If I did, I probably would be some sort of avatar.
ps.
Quoteknow thyself not jesus, etc. etc.
Jesus is the one who said 'know thyself'. He also said "The kingdom (counsel) of God is inside and outside of you." So don't blame Jesus, blame the lack of understanding from those who sought to control what people understood- and could create.
Well Jeehad we are still at it. Ha funny how you say to yourself I will just have to let it go and then you just take a peek see a new posting and say "ok then I will just add this one little thing". Let me first of all repeat to you that I am not supporting the American war. I am also very much against Western Imperialism and the Jewish occupation and re- settlement of the Palestinians. All these points are unjust and it is understandable that you "feel for your brethren" as you put it.
However reality is such. It is a fact that the world is not without abuse, nation war against nation and individual against individual. Who is to blame in every conflict is often quite obscured so we all have to make the effort to figure it out and then try to right the wrong. I totally understand you on this point, and share your sentiments. At the time of Muhammad this was also the reality of the day. I actually believe that in that day and age and with the options open to him, when he first tried to change his reality by preaching to the ungodly, he was doing a good thing, and it may have been inspired by God. His contemporaries were a very brutal and savage bunch of people, and he was right to try to stand up for truth. Even as he moved he was for the most part engaged in what I would term an understandable level of violence. I am not talking here about acceptable but understandable, at least I can see why he did what he did.
It is quite another story how he started behaving after he became a force to be reckoned with. Marrying a 6 year old, and most definitely spreading Islam by the sword. You said that the Koran does not tell you to "just kill people" sorry about that, my wrong, it tells you to try to make them embrace Islam first, and then if they don't want to do that, then you should kill them.
As far as the errors in Christianity, I am fully aware of these errors and a few more that you missed, but you see this is the very point I was trying to make. Most Christians in the world, the overwhelming majority either accepts the Bible as being a book that has to be interpreted, but believe in the message, or they see it purely as a fiction. They still call themselves Christians. This is because they have as a body become educated. In the past this was not so, but education/science has shown them that there are certain scriptures that cannot be meant to be taken literally if science is to be used in measuring its validity. Others still chose to believe it in spite of these, figuring that its basic message is what is important, and that the lack of scientific reality is not really that important. The Fundamentalists that actually believe in every word being true are very few in number and still.........they do not turn terrorists BECAUSE there are no scriptures in the New Testament that justify killing, for any reason, on the contrary.
This is why there are no Christian suicide bombings. On a personal lever our leaders cannot nor do they even try to convince us to use such means. Our book does not state that there will be virgins waiting if we blow ourselves up and kill a bunch of innocent people. With the Koran this is not so. As you so very well know Koranic verses are inscribed on clothes of suicide bombers, and they are elevated almost to saint hood and celebrated. The people, who kill innocent bystanders in these events, are following Koranic dogma. Do you dispute this?
I watched your clip you watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhNAEClzZw
I noticed that you very quickly left off the issue of the uneducated Muslim masses, as well as the "overwhelming number of Muslims" in the west. By now you have resorted to stating and repeating the unfair treatment of your people and justifying Terrorism. A political argument !! Do tell, are you still convinced the masses of Muslims are very well educated. And that, there are such overwhelming number of Muslims living in the west?
And do answer my question. If the Koran is wrong on one statement.....is that enough for you.?
Regards Mustardseed
PS Goober yea so I did not know you lived in a Ghetto, so what. Touching story though. You are still in the safe and protected west, and not subject to Sharia law, that was my point.
QuoteOur book does not state that there will be virgins waiting if we blow ourselves up and kill a bunch of innocent people. With the Koran this is not so
QuoteAs you so very well know Koranic verses are inscribed on clothes of suicide bombers,
Quotethey are elevated almost to saint hood and celebrated.
Quoteare following Koranic dogma
Any citations other than Fox news? :roll:
What religion you follow tends to be determined by what country you are born in.
But what you choose to believe should only be determined by you, not what someone tells you, and certainly not what some book that says it's the only truth tells you.
We all have our "God Selves". The soul or spirit within us is Divine. We don't need to look outside of ourselves for the answers, or for salvation. It's all within us.
The biggest problem that has come from these books telling us they are the only truth, and the organisations that enforce that, is they tell us not to look within ourselves.
They tell us that we are "less than". They tell us we are worthless on our own, that we need some deitiy outside of us to make us right. They also tell us that they alone can show us the only path to their God, and that all other paths are false. They tell us we are separate from their God and we are separate from each other.
These books tell us to be kind and loving to each other yet they are also filled with stories of "righteous" killings and brutal wars against those that have not followed their God.
They are not books of love and salvation, they are books of fear and hate.
Quote from: James S on February 22, 2007, 18:39:19
What religion you follow tends to be determined by what country you are born in.
But what you choose to believe should only be determined by you, not what someone tells you, and certainly not what some book that says it's the only truth tells you.
We all have our "God Selves". The soul or spirit within us is Divine. We don't need to look outside of ourselves for the answers, or for salvation. It's all within us.
The biggest problem that has come from these books telling us they are the only truth, and the organisations that enforce that, is they tell us not to look within ourselves.
They tell us that we are "less than". They tell us we are worthless on our own, that we need some deitiy outside of us to make us right. They also tell us that they alone can show us the only path to their God, and that all other paths are false. They tell us we are separate from their God and we are separate from each other.
These books tell us to be kind and loving to each other yet they are also filled with stories of "righteous" killings and brutal wars against those that have not followed their God.
They are not books of love and salvation, they are books of fear and hate.
not all books teach the same James, you know that very well
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 22, 2007, 12:25:49
Well Jeehad we are still at it. Ha funny how you say to yourself I will just have to let it go and then you just take a peek see a new posting and say "ok then I will just add this one little thing". Let me first of all repeat to you that I am not supporting the American war. I am also very much against Western Imperialism and the Jewish occupation and re- settlement of the Palestinians. All these points are unjust and it is understandable that you "feel for your brethren" as you put it.
However reality is such. It is a fact that the world is not without abuse, nation war against nation and individual against individual. Who is to blame in every conflict is often quite obscured so we all have to make the effort to figure it out and then try to right the wrong. I totally understand you on this point, and share your sentiments. At the time of Muhammad this was also the reality of the day. I actually believe that in that day and age and with the options open to him, when he first tried to change his reality by preaching to the ungodly, he was doing a good thing, and it may have been inspired by God. His contemporaries were a very brutal and savage bunch of people, and he was right to try to stand up for truth. Even as he moved he was for the most part engaged in what I would term an understandable level of violence. I am not talking here about acceptable but understandable, at least I can see why he did what he did.
It is quite another story how he started behaving after he became a force to be reckoned with. Marrying a 6 year old, and most definitely spreading Islam by the sword. You said that the Koran does not tell you to "just kill people" sorry about that, my wrong, it tells you to try to make them embrace Islam first, and then if they don't want to do that, then you should kill them.
As far as the errors in Christianity, I am fully aware of these errors and a few more that you missed, but you see this is the very point I was trying to make. Most Christians in the world, the overwhelming majority either accepts the Bible as being a book that has to be interpreted, but believe in the message, or they see it purely as a fiction. They still call themselves Christians. This is because they have as a body become educated. In the past this was not so, but education/science has shown them that there are certain scriptures that cannot be meant to be taken literally if science is to be used in measuring its validity. Others still chose to believe it in spite of these, figuring that its basic message is what is important, and that the lack of scientific reality is not really that important. The Fundamentalists that actually believe in every word being true are very few in number and still.........they do not turn terrorists BECAUSE there are no scriptures in the New Testament that justify killing, for any reason, on the contrary.
This is why there are no Christian suicide bombings. On a personal lever our leaders cannot nor do they even try to convince us to use such means. Our book does not state that there will be virgins waiting if we blow ourselves up and kill a bunch of innocent people. With the Koran this is not so. As you so very well know Koranic verses are inscribed on clothes of suicide bombers, and they are elevated almost to saint hood and celebrated. The people, who kill innocent bystanders in these events, are following Koranic dogma. Do you dispute this?
I watched your clip you watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhNAEClzZw
I noticed that you very quickly left off the issue of the uneducated Muslim masses, as well as the "overwhelming number of Muslims" in the west. By now you have resorted to stating and repeating the unfair treatment of your people and justifying Terrorism. A political argument !! Do tell, are you still convinced the masses of Muslims are very well educated. And that, there are such overwhelming number of Muslims living in the west?
And do answer my question. If the Koran is wrong on one statement.....is that enough for you.?
Regards Mustardseed
PS Goober yea so I did not know you lived in a Ghetto, so what. Touching story though. You are still in the safe and protected west, and not subject to Sharia law, that was my point.
Clearly you have not read about the life of Muhammed pbuh. He is described by many historians as one of the most influential and greatest figures in history. In a book entitled "1The 100 greatest men" Muhammed was topped as number One. Again I sincerely advise you to learn about the teachings of Muhammad pbuh for you will notice a sudden change. Unlike the founders of many religious, the final prophet of Islam is a real documented and historical figure. He lived in the full light of history, and the most minute details of his life are known. Not only do Muslims have the complete text of God's words that were revealed to Muhammad, but they have also preserved his saying and teachings in what is called "hadith" literature. This having been said, it should be understood that Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad was only a man chosen by God, and that he is not divine in any way. In order to avoid the misguided wish to deify him, the Prophet Muhammad taught Muslims to refer to him as "God's Messenger and His Slave". The mission of the last and final prophet of God was to simply teach that "there is nothing divine or worthy of being worshipped except for Almighty God", as well as being a living example of God's revelation. In simple terms, God sent the revelation to Muhammad, who in turn taught it , preached it, lived it and put it into practice. In this way, Muhammad was more that just a "prophet" in the sense of many of the Biblical prophets, since he was also a statesman and ruler. He was a man who lived a humble life in the service of God, and established an all-encompassing religion and way of life by showing what it means to be an ideal friend, husband, teacher, ruler, warrior and judge. For this reason, Muslims follow him not for his own sake, but in obedience to God, because Muhammad not only showed us how to deal with our fellow human beings, but more importantly, he showed us how to relate to and worship God, worship Him in the only way pleasing to Him. Like other prophets, Muhammad faced a great deal of opposition and persecution during his mission. However, he was always patient and just, and he treated his enemies well. The results of his mission were very successful, and even though his mission started in one of the most backward and remotes places on earth, within a hundred years of the death of Muhammad, Islam had spread from Spain to China. The Prophet Muhammad was the greatest of all of God's prophets, not because he had new doctrines or greater miracles, but because the results of his mission have broght more human beings into the pure and proper belief in the One True God than any other prophet. The hadiths in which saying Muhammed married a 6 year old were are very weak, in fact there are other Hadiths which state that he married someone who was 19 years of age. Such to that matter, Islam being spread by the sword is a hilarious statement. What do you call the good old crusaders??? Didn't they try puncturing the Islamic states in the name of Christianity?? Secondly, I advice you to learn in historical studies. Any historian is willing to tell you how Islam expanded. As you may have noticed the Christian romans persecuted the Muslims during the expansion of Islam. Arabian merchants spread this divine call to God and people took a liking. A religion which supports freedom, liberty, teaches equality is absolutely thrilling to people. So people in christian nations converted, and guess what the leaders of that society did? The forced down there own religion on the people persecuted them fought them! Many of these people lived in large numbers and called for help! The Muslims fought back against these persecutors! this si essentially how Islam spread. See the nature of that era was hate what you do not know. Islam was knew and it was a target to MANY peoples eyes! We were attacked many times but through Gods grace and mercy the truthful won! I told you once and I will tell you again, the verses you stated were EXPLAINED BY ME! If you want to refute on such matters then pull the verses out and rebuttle my statements I made on each one. Will I change my thoughts if the Quran has an error? I won't because I know for a fact the Quran is purely a divine word of God, I KNOW FOR A FACT you cannot pull out any error! IF so then The error can be easily explained. This is a challenge from Allah almighty. Aboutt he "illitercy" Brother please I am bear witnessed to this falseful statement. Lets take things in my perspective, I am not illiterate and I am preaching out such verses! Tell me are Americans illiterate? Because they were blindly led to believe leis fed to them by the government? They were fooled to thinking that christianity is the root support of the Israeli regime on Palestineans? That there own tax dollars are going out evenly to there society??? Please, illiteracy is a stupid statement and excuse, why not use logic to rebuttle my statements instead of such instances.
My brothers and sisters everywhere! With this essay, I am not singling out the adherents of Islam - to which I ascribe - but rather I am writing this essay to every man and woman throughout the whole world.
I ask Allah that He facilitates that this essay reaches every ear, falls under the sight of every eye, and is understood by every heart... Muhammad the son of `Abdullah is Allah's Prophet and the Final Messenger Sent by Allah to the Inhabitants of Earth. My brothers and sisters everywhere! You should know that the Messenger, Muhammad the son of`Abdullah (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) is Allah's Messenger in reality and truth. The evidences that show his veracity are abundant. None but an infidel, who out of arrogance alone, could deny these signs.
Among these proofs:
1. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was raised illiterate, unable to read or write, and remained like that till his death. Among all his people, he was known as being truthful and trustworthy. Before receiving revelation, he had no prior knowledge of Religion or any previously sent Message. He remained like that for his first forty years. Revelation then came to Muhammad with theKoran that we now have between our hands. This Koran mentioned most of the accounts found in the previous scriptures, telling us about these events in the greatest detail as if he witnessed them. These accounts came precisely as they were found in the Torah sent down to Moses and in the Gospel sent down to Jesus. Neither the Jews or Christians were able to believe him regarding anything that he said.
2. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also foretold of everything that wouldoccur to him and his community after him, pertaining to victory, the removal of the tyrannical kingdoms of Chosroes [the royal title for the Zoroastrian kings of Persia] and Caesar, and the establishment of the religion of Islam throughout the earth. These events occurred exactly as Muhammad foretold, as ifhe was reading the future from an open book.
3. Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) also brought an Arabic Koran that isthe peak of eloquence and clarity. The Koran challenged those eloquent and fluent Arabs of his time, who initially belied him, to bring forth a single chapter like the Koran. The eloquent Arabs of his day were unable to contest this Koran.Indeed, till our day, none has ever dared to claim that he has been able to compose words that equal-or even approach-the order, grace, beauty, and splendor of this Glorious Koran.
4. The life history of this Noble Prophet was a perfect example of being upright, merciful,compassionate, truthful, brave, generous, distant from all evil character, and ascetic in all worldly matters, while striving solely for the reward of the Hereafter. Moreover, in all his actions and dealings, he was ever mindful and fearful of Allah.
5. Allah instilled great love for Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) in the hearts of all who believed in and met him. This love reached such a degree that any of his companions would willingly sacrifice his (or her) self, mother or father for him. Till today, those who believe in Muhammad honor and love him. Anyone of those who believe in him would ransom his own family and wealth to see him, even if but once.
6. All of history has not preserved the biography of any person in the manner it has preserved the life of Muhammad, who is the most influential human in history. Nor has the entire earth known of anyone whom every morning and evening, and many times thereafter throughout the day, is thought of by those who believe in him. Upon rememberingMuhammad, the believers in him will greet him and ask Allah to bless him. They do such with full hearts and true love for him.
7. Nor has there every been a man on earth whom is still followed in all his doings by those whobelieve in him. Those who believe in Muhammad, sleep in the manner he slept; purify themselves (through ablutionand ritual washing) in the manner he purified himself; and adhere to his practice in the way they eat, drink, and clothe themselves.
Indeed in all aspects of their lives, the believers in Muhammad adhere to the teachings he spread among them and the path that he traveled upon during his life.
During every generation, from his day till our time, the believers in this Noble prophet have fullyadhered to his teachings. With some, this has reached the degree that they desire to follow and adhere to the Prophet's way in his personal matters regarding which Allah has not sought of them to adhere to in worship. For example, some will only eat those specific foods or only wear those specific garmentsthat the Messenger liked.
Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad repeat those praises of Allah, special prayers,and invocations that he would say during each of his actions during day and night, like: what he would say when he greeted people, upon entering and leaving the house, entering and leaving the mosque, entering and leaving the bathroom, going to sleep and awaking from sleep, observing the new crescent, observing the new fruit on trees, eating, drinking, dressing, riding, traveling and returning from travel, etc. Let alone all that, all those who believe in Muhammad fully perform-even to the minute detail-every act of worship-like prayer, fasting, charity, and pilgrimage-as this Noble Messenger (may Allah's blessingsand peace be upon him) taught and as he himself performed.All of this allows those who believe in him, to live their lives in all aspects with this Noble Messenger as their example, as if he was standing before them, for them to follow in all their doings.
8. There has never been nor will there ever be a man anywhere upon this earth who has received suchlove, respect, honor, and obedience in all matters-small and large alike-as has this Noble Prophet.
9. Since his day, in every region of the earth and during every period, this Noble Prophet has beenfollowed by individuals from all races, colors and peoples. Many of those who followed him were previously Christians, Jews, pagans, idolaters, or without any religion. Among those who chose to follow him, were those who were known for their sound judgment, wisdom, reflection, and foresight. They chose to follow this Noble Prophet after they witnessed the signs of his truthfulness and the evidences of his miracles. They did not choose to follow Muhammad out of compulsion or coercion orbecause they had adopted the ways of their fathers and mothers.Indeed many of the followers of this Prophet (may Allah's blessings peace be upon him), chose to follow him during the time when Islam was weak, when there were few Muslims, and when there was severe persecution of his followers on earth. Most people who have followed this Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) have done so not to acquire some material benefits. Indeed many of his followers have suffered the greatest forms of harm and persecution as a result of followingthis Prophet. Despite all this harm and persecution, this did not turn them back from his religion. My brethren! All of this clearly indicates to anyone possessing any sense, that this Prophet was truly and really Allah's messenger and that he was not just a man who claimed prophethood or spoke aboutAllah without knowledge.
10. With all this, Muhammad came with a great religion in its credal and legal make-up. Muhammad described Allah with qualities of complete perfection, and at the same time in a manner that is free of ascribing to Him any imperfection. Neither the philosophers or the wise could ever describe Allah like such. Indeed it is impossible to imagine that any human mind could conceive of an existing being that possesses such complete ability, knowledge, and greatness; Who has subdued thecreation; Who has encompassed everything in the universe, small or large; and Who possesses such perfect mercy.Nor is it in the ability of any human being to place a perfect law based upon justice, equality, mercy and objectivity for all human activity on earth like the laws that Muhammad brought for all spheres of human activity - like buying and selling, marriage and divorce, renting, testimony, custody, and all othercontracts that are necessary to uphold life and civilization on earth.
11. It is impossible that any person conceive wisdom, morals, good manners, nobleness of charactersas what this honorable Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) brought. In a full and complete manner, Muhammad spread a teaching regarding character and manners towardone' parents, relatives, fiends, family, humanity, animals, plants and inanimate objects. It is impossible for the human mind alone to grasp all of that teaching or come with a similar teaching. All of that unequivocally indicates that this Messenger did not bring an) of this religion from his own accord, but that it was rather a teaching and inspiration that he received from the One Who created the earth and the high heavens above and created this universe in its miraculous architecture andperfection.
12. The legal and credal make-up of the religion that the Messenger, Muhammad, (may Allah'sblessings and peace be upon him) brought resembles the engineering of the heavens and the earth. All of that indicates that He who created the heavens and the earth is the One Who sent down this great law and upright religion. The degree of inimitability of the Divine law that was sent down upon Muhammad is to the same degree of inimitability of the Divine creation of the heavens and earth. For just as humanity cannot create this universe, in the same manner humanity cannot bring forth a law like Allah's law that He sent down upon His servant and messenger Muhammad (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him).
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 22, 2007, 19:03:32
not all books teach the same James, you know that very well
I have yet to see a book that is the primary religious text for a major religion that does not contain quantities of "justified" killings of people who do not follow the ways of the God portrayed in that book.
The Bible's Old Testament is chock full of it!
The Irony of the Bible is it presents the teachings of Jesus who was essentially "anti-religion", yet a religion was built about this that demands that all of the bible, all of the murderous old testament and all of Paul's rules and regulations be adhered to, not just the loving humane bits.
If anyone doubts that all of the major religious texts contain a disturbing ammount of "justified" brutality and inhumanity, grab a copy of Neal Donald Walsch's New Revalations and look at all the examples throughout it.
When you cannot look at a religion without being caught up in the perspective of that religion, it becomes very hard to see its dark side.
QuoteWill I change my thoughts if the Quran has an error? I won't because I know for a fact the Quran is purely a divine word of God, I KNOW FOR A FACT you cannot pull out any error! IF so then The error can be easily explained. This is a challenge from Allah almighty. About the "illitercy" Brother please I am bear witnessed to this falseful statement. Lets take things in my perspective, I am not illiterate and I am preaching out such verses!
Dear Jeehad
Your quote above says it all. You are convinced and as a true fanatic you state that you will not change your mind if a proven error is to be found in the Koran because you "know for a fact that it can be easily explained " This only proves my fact you are doing this:
(Presuppositions and Epistemologies)
A man is convinced he is dead. His wife and kids are exasperated. They keep telling him he's not dead. But he continues to insist he's dead.
They try telling him, "Look, you're not dead; you're walking and talking and breathing; how can you be dead?" But he continues to insist he is dead.
The family finally takes him to a doctor. The doctor pulls out some medical books to demonstrate to the man that dead men do not bleed. After some time, the man admits that dead men do not bleed.
The doctor then takes the man's hand and a needle and pokes the end of his finger. The man starts bleeding. He looks at his finger and says, "What do you know? DEAD MEN DO BLEED!"
This is known as a Presupposition
The above story illustrates the strength presuppositions can have. If someone is already convinced of a particular position, presenting contrary evidence can often be futile. The person will often re-interpreted the evidence in light of the presupposition.
then you say that the masses of Muslims are not illiterate because "you are not". Your statements make no sense. I have shown you statistics clearly proving they are, yet you deny that because you are not. !!!! When you make statements like this you sure sound illiterate.
As I said before you prove my point. Can you not see this?
Regards Mustardseed
To James : as you know the NT is a break with the OT where in the NT do you see "quantities of "justified" killings of people who do not follow the ways of the God portrayed in that book."
When will anyone spak up against this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh1UGAvsNs4
and this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTOEGOt1NHI&mode=related&search=
it goes on and on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZOcqXQ0SM&mode=related&search=
LOL! I can't believe ya'll are still at it. Be warned one and all.... this is what religion...any religion gets you.
I wish both of you would shut your yaps now... seriously. This has become so much about being right it isn't funny. If either one of you were to die tomorrow, you would be so stuck in a religious belief system that no amount of being right would save you. Are you both so insecure with your own beliefs that you really need to out talk, copy and paste each other to death?
Come on already... *shakes head*
Mustardseed,
you are correct - the New Testament does not contain vast quantities of justified killings as the Old Testament does.
But that doesn't excuse the fact that Christians are told that ALL of the Bible is the Holy Word of God, and that ALL of the Bible must be treated as such.
The Quaran, the Bhagavad-Gita and the Torah are all the same - full of killings and other gross inhumanities by God and in God's name, and yet they must be adhered to by their respective followers.
Talanay is absolutely correct - it's all about who's right isn't it?
For millennia the world has been putting up with this utterly ridiculous crap.
Religions, each one of them hell bent on trying to convince people that they are right and every other religion is wrong.
Each one of them with their history written in the blood of innocent people!
Jeehad and Mustardseed,
both of you are arguing that your religion is right and the other is wrong. Yet which of these religions has the greater claim to being The Truth?
Honestly, you two might as well argue over whether yellow is a better or truer color than blue!
Lock Jesus and Muhammad in a room together for a few hours and they'd come out best of friends.
Lock one or two of each of their followers together in a room and there'd probably be bloodshed!
It's so utterly pointless because the more you two, and other religious followers like you argue over who's religions is right, the further away you are going from the real spiritual / humanitarian teaching of the Holy masters like Moses, Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha, etc.
Can't the two of you see that all of these masters were saying the same thing?
It is connection with God, with the Divine that allows us to see ourselves as all being one, with no-one being greater or lesser than another, no-one being more "right" than another.
It is connection with Ego that creates separation and the need to prove yourself right and prove someone else wrong.
QuoteLock Jesus and Muhammad in a room together for a few hours and they'd come out best of friends.
Lock one or two of each of their followers together in a room and there'd probably be bloodshed!
Excellent James! Several times I've asked friends this same thing -- although I usually include Buddha and Krishna in that room as well -- and my conclusions equal yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBeaHbE-Q2s
First of all Nay, this is all posted in the section of "world religions". This section was as you know made in order to keep those, who wanted to discuss such things separate from the other threads. Are you telling me that even here, this subject should not be discussed? YOU moderators made these separations so let us be. We have followed the rules so let us do our thing, if you don't like the subject look the other way :-D, we do not force anyone to take part. The issue at hand obviously is interesting to us. We are both trying our best to be decent and polite, give and take a few outbursts here and there we keep the rules of the AP.
James for your information the NT is separate as pertains to ethics. As Christians we are not expected or even required to follow the 10 commandments. This is the much talked about "Good news", If you want me to explain this to you I will but I expect that you are aware of this but are so hip on stopping this "madness" that you would rather throw every religion into the same pot, and get your own "beliefsystem" across. Yes, My friend are also stuck in a beliefsystem, I realize you probably feel quite convinced that you are above such matters, but it is my opinion that everyone is in some sort of beliefsystem, even the most "enlightened", and who are you James to tell me that you know better.
While I am a Christian, my point here is not to elevate my own beliefs as "right", but to mirror Jeehad. It is my opinion that his religion is destructive and that violence is not the answer to the worlds problems. I do very strongly believe that Islam is a destructive religion, and that the anger and resentment, the masses of Muslims feel toward the west is justified using the Koran and the Hadith. Religious leaders in the mideast and other places are with the Koran in hand whipping Muslims into a frenzy, aiming at destroying the west. I know very well that US aggression and centuries of abuse is by western powers is partly to blame for the social misery and extreme poverty in these countries, but do not see in the NT that the solution is to kill the Muslims. The war is not Christians against Muslims as per se, as western powers are not engaging in war to make Muslims change their faith. They are simply preying on the weak for political and financial reasons.
Take a look at the youtube clips encouraging children to become suicide bombers. !!!!
Besides this my religion may be peacefull and nonviolent, but there is nothing in the book that tells me I should not SPEAK up against evil, and killing is evil. I do not consider Jeehad my enemy at all, but I am engaged in this debate to try to understand why he believes in a book that not only preaches intolerance, but is used to justify an appalling array of human rights violations.
People fight wars, I know that, to fight a war for social justice, and rise up against oppressors, is understandable, but to do so in the name of God is quite another thing.
I would venture to say that none of you in the west really have any understanding of the reality of life in the Mid east under Islamic rule. I would expect that as moderators you take part in the discussion in a respectfull manner, state your views but do not squelch the participants in it or ridicule them (us) we are talking about some of the most important issues in the world, besides this issue OBEs pale in importance.
Regards Mustardseed
Quote from: mon9999 on February 24, 2007, 09:57:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBeaHbE-Q2s
Oh my God I was sitting here and drinking my coffea and started lauging so hard I spilled it all over my computer. That was so funny :-D
QuoteFirst of all Nay, this is all posted in the section of "world religions". This section was as you know made in order to keep those, who wanted to discuss such things separate from the other threads. Are you telling me that even here, this subject should not be discussed? YOU moderators made these separations so let us be. We have followed the rules so let us do our thing, if you don't like the subject look the other way grin, we do not force anyone to take part. The issue at hand obviously is interesting to us. We are both trying our best to be decent and polite, give and take a few outbursts here and there we keep the rules of the AP.
You know darn well I do not care if discussions take place. It's not about that anymore with you two, it's about being right, having the last word, and loving to hear yourselves talk.
By all means, continue to go at it with each other, it matters not to me anymore if you both look like arrogant fools.
QuoteThe Bible's Old Testament is chock full of it!
and apparently A-OK with Gang-rape too
Judges 19:
24Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.
27And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an butt, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
yes the OT is, but the NT is not and that is why we are Christians, Christ annulled the OT. Now find me some of that sort of things there. As for beng arrogant fools well I have been called worse. I am interested in this conversation and in his reasoning. Thats all. To me its not a matter of who is right but of what is right.
any opinion on this :
Cruelty and Violence in the New Testament
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html
Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
:|
Hi Mustardseed,
Remember my point of view on Christianity comes from having spent 16 years in Christian churches - Presbyterian, Assemblies of God and Salvation Army.
If the OT is no longer relevant, then why is it continually preached and referenced so extensively with in the Christian church. Yes I know Jesus came to nullify the laws of the OT, as I said - he was anti-religion. So then why did a new religion - the Christian religion have to be formed out of his spiritual and non-religious teachings?
Yes I have belief systems, definitely, and I freely admit that. I am in no ways above or better than anyone else here. But I constantly check these belief systems to see if they are serving me or not, and if they are not, then I let go of them. Not always willingly, but I let go of them.
Not to make me better than anyone else, but to make me better for myself, better within myself. To try and compare myself - my beliefs, to anyone else defeats that purpose.
The way I see it, ALL religions have their share of violence and destruction, and ALL religions are the product of human ego and the need for self gratification of some kind. To me, all religions have caused separation, from both other people and especially from God.
To promote separation, especially from God is to promote separation from our own Divine selves, and for me, that is a belief system that most definitely does not serve me.
But I'll repeat - does not server ME.
Though I've made my personal opinions on religions quite clear, I will not judge those who choose to follow religions. That is entirely a matter of personal choice - free will.
I would only ask others, does the religion, or indeed belief systems of any kind serve you? If you can truly answer yes, then all is well. But take the time to check in with yourself, with the true self within you. If you feel the need to justify or defend your beliefs, especially by comparing them to another's, or by trying to convince others that yours is right and theirs is wrong, then can you honestly say that your beliefs are serving you?
Blessings,
James.
Completely unrelated to the current turn this convo has taken, but as a reply to the original post:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1253156,00.html
Now the question is... how long before it is discovered to be a hoax? (Just like every other artifact that "proved" Big J's existance)
Dear James
I am probably on my last leg in this thread; it seems futile to go on any longer. Seeing that is the case, let me try to explain my thoughts on the subject, and conclude the issue as I see it, to you and anyone who is interested. I understand your reasoning and where you come from very well, and I applaud you for seriously considering the importance of living a life in harmony with your consciousness. Many do not even bother. For now, however let's just try to be unbiased OK. I will try to take my Christian "hat" off and you try to take off yours, whatever kind of hat it is.
I understand your observation, and agree that there are a multitude of religions "out there" and most, if not all teach that man is separate from God and that something is needed to breech this separation. This is the belief of Millions of people. Very few actually believe that they are "one with God" at birth or that God is within them. It is from what I understand, a relative new concept, rooted in a western form of Buddhism. (we are talking demographically here so lets not argue numbers) In any case most people believe that they have to either Pray, sacrifice, Meditate, or what have you, to get in connection with him, grow in their understanding of Him (for the sake of brevity I refer to God as He, no need to get sassy Girls ). In other words to please Him they must do something. Action is needed. You very accurately stated this fact. I suppose that even the ones who believe that God is inside them still meditate or something to become enlightened.
If we then analyze what these religions all say must be done, to connect or please God or understand him in a deeper way, I would say we have a good picture of what the particular religion "consists of". In other words the religions true color would be shown by what it teaches its followers to do in His name.
For most original religions shamanistic animistic religions, a type of personal or tribal responsibility was often what was expected. Mostly sacrifices to appease His wrath. In Buddhism as I understand, it is a lifestyle change, rejection of the material, as well as meditation, in Hinduism very similar ideas are held as "pleasing to God, or the Gods"
Muslims, Jews being monotheists, are actually very close to each other and believe basically similar things. Both are in part based on the OT, and its concept of God, and both are (like Christians) elitist. They differ in a few ways. The Jews believe that a personal keeping of the Law is necessary. The religious law being a complex conglomeration of eating and life style rules, as well as temple worship. You cannot however become a Jew but must be born one.
The Muslims also have these complex lifestyle rules as well as the temple worship, but has an additional defining element that I see in no other religion, called Jihad.
Jihad is a very central point in Islam. It is basically divided in "the little and the big Jihad". The most important is the big Jihad. It consists of the 5 pillars of Islam, all things that a Muslim must do, all the life-rules. The little Jihad is different, it is Holy struggle defined as physical struggle. It is the commandment of God through Muhammed to fight, defensively or aggressively for the faith. In Jihad another Islamic doctrine called Shahada is embedded. Shahada is basically martyrdom. It is originally meant to be understood as "witness" or sample and it is a vital part of Jihad and thereby Islam.
In a situation such as the Palestinian struggle, it (Shahada) is taught by Imams to children in kindergarten, and by the time children reach their preteens they all see Shahada as the biggest thing they can do in their lives. In their particular situation it refers to suicide bombings, killing innocent people through killing one self,
but it has over time had many different physical resolutions, though always meaning giving up your life for Islam, to die as a martyr in an armed struggle (Jihad). I expect that you are old enough to remember the Iran-Irak war where thousands upon thousands were sent by Khomeini and Hussain to be cannon fodder. All of them wearing the white robes of Shahada, they would run, some even unarmed, into the firing lines of their opponents, being assured that if they gave their lives in Jihad becoming Shahada they would be in pleasing to God.
Now James these are the teachings and commandments of the Koran, and if you would do some research on this you would find it documented very extensively. Just look up "Children and Suicide bombings" on the YOUTUBE and you can witness the Immams there, testifying to the authenticity of Shahada as well as Jihad, being proper Islamic doctrine, and one that is accepted taught and lived by Millions of Muslims.
Now to the Christians. I know very well that the crusades were done in the name of Christ, I also know of all the OT slaughters and in the New Testament there is a fair bit of bloodshed in Revelation and the Coming of Christ etc. Most of it done by Him, actually. The crusades and all the witch hunts and Inquisition were largely due to ignorance. The people who were ruled by the Catholic Church did not have any idea of what God wanted, because they never had a book to read, seeing that the Bible was in Latin. By the time it was translated and the common people started reading it, it became obvious that Christ (as pictured in the NT) had the nature of a Lamb, and that the message was nonviolence. Most of the examples of Violence, that Ryuji linked to are as you know metaphors, Christians are not expected to pluck out their eyes, and as for the slaughter in the End time it is largely understood as a metaphor as well. Notice that the sword of Jesus comes out of his mouth. It is believed however that becoming Christian and changing your faith might bring a sword on your head, from those you formerly called your brethren, be they atheist or Muslim or just ticked off. Someone claiming to speak the Truth is not easily accepted, by others claiming the same, and Christians are promised persecution. Martyrs are common in Christianity as well but none of them died killing for their faith. It is simply not a Christian doctrine. This is how the religions expect their followers to live, in the hard times and the easy ones.
If one could make a metaphor I would say Religions are like Vehicles. Christianity is then an average car, like Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoists, Parsee's and a range of animistic original religions they have been the cause of killings, yes even mass killings and some have even used them as a weapon to kill, most of these being criminals. However these cars were not built to be weapons but a way of transport.
Islam Is also a vehicle but it is in my opinion, in justifying the doctrine of Jihad and Shahada, an armored vehicle, built not only to transport but also attack defend and engage in physical war. There are aspects of Islam that are simply not present in Christianity, or any other religious belief system like the ones mentioned above, the most noteworthy being as I explained, Jihad and Shahada, if they were part of Christianity as actual doctrine, I think it would be reasonable to assume that the world would by now be Christian. !!!! It is not.
My hat is now officially back on .
Christianity embraces persuasion, it uses "good deeds as bait to the ones they aim at converting. (Whether one believes that to be a good thing or immoral, is unimportant, but may be an additional very interesting discussion). When someone leaves the faith of these other religions, be it Christianity Buddhism or what have you, they may be ostracized, maligned or looked down on, yes, but if Jeehad was to stand up in his Mosque and denounce Islam, depending on his whereabouts he would be in big trouble. Apostasy is punishable by death in Islam. In the Hadith, Muhammed said "whosoever changes his Islamic religion , Kill him" Vol 9:57, this is also factual social reality in many Muslim countries.
Personally I do not believe that Jesus wanted to make a new religion. I believe that He was trying to show man that Love is greater than hate, and that if we want to connect with God, humility and sacrifice and letting go of ego and pride in the only way. Sadly we all fall so short. He knew that too and I think He wanted us to understand that being perfect and obedient humble and so forth is not possible for us. Through understanding this we then by ourselves come to the conclusion that the only thing we can do, is to be as Loving as we can. Not to condemn others when they fall short because we fall short ourselves. Not to poke at others mistakes because we make bigger ones.
I understand that Ryuij will naturally use this against me saying I am poking at Jeehad, being a hypocrite, but I am really not. Another central point in Christianity you see, is to tell the truth, and I believe that the Truth sets people free. We should tell people the truth as we understand it, even you telling me the Truth as you see it , or Nay or Ryuij is bound to eventually clear the air and if nothing else help us to agree to disagree. Be honest and speak our mind, show our true colors. Some will receive it and some will not.
This incidentally brings me to the last questionable teaching of Islam that I want to bring to your attention, the doctrine of Taqiyya (Taqeya, Taqiya). In the west very few people understand this very important doctrine. Taqiyya roughly translates into "lying for the faith". A Muslim may tell any lie when they are threatened or whenever it is seen as an advantage of the faith. In short, a Muslim can lie as a holy duty to deceive and gain an advantage over the unbeliever. Muhammad sanctioned this when he said; "he who keeps secrets shall soon attain his objectives". This Doctrine is very central to social life of Muslims, in the west specifically, to most folks in these countries, it is a hidden part of Islam. In the light of this it is possible that Jeehad is simply covering up these facts, we will never know. It is a very commonly used tactic with Immams and Muslims in general in the west. It is used in debates of all kinds and naturally does not help to clear the waters. For the most part it is used in connection with the inevitably "you don't understand Arabic, that is not what the Koran says". No one does apparently,...... except Muslims. The doctrine of Taqiyya is an almost perfect weapon in every public debate. Lying and deceiving is the most common "basic applied Political debating strategy, and as we know it is a very destructive element in understanding the true nature of any given situation.
So James to end a long post, can you really say with conviction that Islam and Christianity is all the same. If they were the same the followers would act the same, and if the Christians you left behind in the Churches as well as most my former associates, were the same as and acted the same as Muslims , they would not be sitting idle by I assure you. This Forum would probably be closed as well, and if anyone of you moderators or Admin could be identified .......well you do the math on that one. Lets not even get started on Gays and Feminists, but......Christianity is not anything like Islam.
It is not my aim to bring Christianity into this debate as the Truth, granted it has served me well, but I have also matured in my faith and no longer adhere to certain beliefs, but ascribe them to be metaphors rather than anything else. The central thought that God loves the World I have kept. In many ways we actually believe much the same ethics, but can you honestly say that all belief systems are the same? Is the acid test, "if they serve YOU" or if they serve others? If your belief system used violence in any form toward a fellow human of another faith, should it not be renounced as false? It is my belief that a religion that justifies violence is definitely a false religion. It is against the very foundation of Karmic law. I know you agree on that. It is against what most people here on the Pulse believes to be true and beneficial and moral. Sadly most are so busy tearing down the hypocrisy they see in the Churches and Christianity, that they do not even bother to understand much less address the much greater danger of a violent religion such as Islam. (probably due to a geographical proximity factor, aren't that many Muslims around in the US,) but if all we as a community is concerned about is whether "we individually are served by our beliefs", we become isolated James, each one just introspecting examining his own bellybutton. It is also necessary, that in a public debate the beliefs of others are equally examined, and if they fall short of what is fair and humane, we should most certainly speak up.
I know this is a long post and probably goes over the head of most of our younger posters, I will get a jab or two and can handle that. I do have a hard time being told I should "shut my yap" and that I am an "arrogant fool", but that is Nay for you, she is probably so used to breaking up fights, and like any mother just wants some "peace in her house". I will try to take that is good spirits as well Nay. Hope we are still friends. It would be interesting to hear Gandalfs take on this post, he knows quite a bit about this subject as well.
Regards Mustardseed
Hi Mustardseed,
I understand the points you make, and I (hope I) also understand the place you are coming from - a place of spiritual christianity, as opposed to fundamental dogmatic christianity, in which case, you are following the principals Jesus was trying to teach us about.
I guess I should clarify more my thoughts about what serves us.
To me, what serves us is what helps us to grow and evolve - it is the direction of the soul, not the ego. What serves us most is love - firstly love of self, which then enables love of others. Apart from Jesus' quote "Love others as you would love yourself", there isn't a whole lot taught in religions that promotes this.
IT could be argued (and I believe has been... extensively) that Fundamentalist Christian beliefs are no less excessive and separatist than fundamentalist Muslim beliefs. There have been Islamic scholars who have tried to put across to their followers that the whole concept of Jihad has been grossly misinterpreted. They have tried to tell their followers that their way is a way of love and tolerance.
Unfortunately, as it is with many christians, the message of love seems to be lost amongst the many messages of fear.
Blessings,
James.
Quote from: James S on February 26, 2007, 19:23:34
Hi Mustardseed,
I understand the points you make, and I (hope I) also understand the place you are coming from - a place of spiritual christianity, as opposed to fundamental dogmatic christianity, in which case, you are following the principals Jesus was trying to teach us about.
I guess I should clarify more my thoughts about what serves us.
To me, what serves us is what helps us to grow and evolve - it is the direction of the soul, not the ego. What serves us most is love - firstly love of self, which then enables love of others. Apart from Jesus' quote "Love others as you would love yourself", there isn't a whole lot taught in religions that promotes this.
IT could be argued (and I believe has been... extensively) that Fundamentalist Christian beliefs are no less excessive and separatist than fundamentalist Muslim beliefs. There have been Islamic scholars who have tried to put across to their followers that the whole concept of Jihad has been grossly misinterpreted. They have tried to tell their followers that their way is a way of love and tolerance.
Unfortunately, as it is with many christians, the message of love seems to be lost amongst the many messages of fear.
Blessings,
James.
Sorry If I haven't been replying lately I've had alot of projects and assignments due lately :S But James thank you very very very much for that wonderful post. It seems as though MustardSeed just doesn't get it... he's trying to educate a false message of Islam portrayed by the Media. Again, As is every belief there are some "black sheeps" People who try to divert actions for a cause. this is a phenomenon which happens in every religion, every belief system! You got Radical Christians as well!! Did you not witness the Oklahoma bombings? Where immediately Arab men were persecuted, but the culprits were Catholic extremists!!! You fail to realize the rationale of why Muslims are fighting and I've tried explaining to you a countless number of times but you simply just don't get it!! why has terrorism suddenly splured out in the past 6 years? It is because of the violent interrogations faced by this common enemy of these people! Its the fact that occupation and brutal dictators were shoved down our throats. Jihad has absolutely nothing to do with war! In Islam Jihad is a struggle, the prophet muhammed(pbuh) referred to Jihad as ones struggle with his inner soul so in essence battling your soul in the way of God. Uh.... Jihad isn't a pillar of Islam.... Also do you even know what she Shahada is. It seems to me you have a distorted view of history!! If you only read the prophets hadiths on war you'd be surprised how peaceful he is!! Look at the biblical prophetic stories! The entire concept was based upon brutal murders, God setting up events which would in essence destroy the relationship with humans! So again, where do these "Christian" fundamentalists get there ideas from????? My opinion is that religion itself is not corrupt, but perhaps people are! I am going to say this again, I AM A MUSLIM, I SUBMIT TO THE ONE TRUE GOD, I BELIEVE IN ALL THE PROPHETS INCLUDING MUHAMMED)PBUH) BELIEVE IN PEACE LOVE AND HUMANITY AND CONDEMN ANY VIOLENT ACT WHETHER IT BE DONE BY MUSLIMS,CHRISTIANS,JEWS,HINDUS WTEVER!!! I DO NOT ASSOCIATE RELIGION WITH WAR!! IN FACT DONT EVEN ASSOCIATE RELIGION WITH POLITICS!! The events in the Middle East are absolutely political to a critical level, and instead of explaining the western media chooses to blaim such events on a Religion. MustardSeed instead of claiming such things please provide "proof," rather irrefutable proof!
Islam permits people TO FIGHT IN SELF DEFENSE but attacking people in any ways is absolutely against this noble religion.
" GOD advocates justice, charity, and regarding the relatives. And He forbids evil, vice, and transgression. He enlightens you, that you may take heed.(16:90)
"O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant."(49:13)
"O you who believe, you shall be absolutely equitable, and observe GOD, when you serve as witnesses, even against yourselves, or your parents, or your relatives. Whether the accused is rich or poor, GOD takes care of both. Therefore, do not be biased by your personal wishes. If you deviate or disregard (this commandment), then GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do." (4:135).
"You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient." (8:60-61)
P.S: I cant reply your youtube videos for my speakers are broken :S Could you possibly post it here?? Id rather have you explain it in your own words.
Islam spread by the sword???
Allah (SWT) "Say: the truth from your Lord and let him who will believe and let him who will reject."(18:29)
Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, currently we claim 1.7 billion muslims worldwide and despite the efforts to demonize such a religion people are converting at all time highs! Are you telling me, Muslims nowadays in America are holding up swords to Americans telling them to convert? Therefore, we should ask ourselves first, before we are asked by anyone else, what is the truth? Did Muslims really force others to convert to Islam? Is there any evidence for consistent forcible conversion throughout the Islamic history? As a matter of fact, there is no such evidence anywhere in the history of Islam. Many distinguised Western historians have attested this fact-- foremost among whom is Sir Thomas W. Arnold in his book, "The Preaching of Islam". Also there is Marshall G. Hodgson in his book, "The Venture of Islam", Albert Hourani in his book, "A History of the Arab People", Ira Lapidus in his book, "History of Islamic Societies", L.S. Starorianos in his book, "A Global Hisotry, the Human Heritage" and many others.
In fact, there is substantial evidence to the contrary. We have already seen in a previous *khutbah* that Muslims were often seen as liberators of the oppressed people everywhere.
Are you telling me Islam Islam is being spread by the sword today as we speak? You must understand that Islam is a religion which has separated itself from other religious doctrines. Calling all mankind to worship the one God worthy of worship, Calling all mankind to unite as a brotherhood instead of fighting. Reestablishing the covenant with the Jews and Christians. THIS IS ISLAM! It is an action, to submit ones soul to God! To perform acts of worship, such as giving to the needy, helping someone in need, regarding man as equal humans from the same bloodline. Islam is an amazing blend of simplicity and rationality: a very simple religion yet very rational at the same time.
http://www.submission.org/muhammed/jihad.html
I see something important in Jeehad's post that many people (including myself) can fail to see:
Most, if not all religions started out as a set of SPIRITUAL teachings.
These spiritual teachings were given to us by truly incredible and truly loving spiritual masters. Masters that came to earth to show us how to be better than we are, how to better connect with the God that is a part of all of us, and how to better connect with each other.
It is the egotistical human face put upon religions by those who sought to use it to control others that have distorted it so badly, but yet there remains wonderful inspiring spiritual messages within the texts of all religions if we choose to see them, if we choose to cut out all the negative human interference and see right to the heart of the messages.
Radical Muslims are not alone in their misguided hatred of others. Anyone who has lived in Ireland can attest to that. Catholics fighting Protestants! Just like Sunnis fighting Shiites in Iraq.
Unfortunatly religion is the most popular vehicle used by tyrannical madmen to impose their will on others... In God's Allah's, Krishan's, whoever's name.
Blessings,
James
Quote from: MustardseedI do have a hard time being told I should "shut my yap" and that I am an "arrogant fool", but that is Nay for you, she is probably so used to breaking up fights, and like any mother just wants some "peace in her house". I will try to take that is good spirits as well Nay. Hope we are still friends.
Do you prefer shut your pie hole? :D You are absolutely right with me breaking up fights like a mom and calling you both arrogant fools is exactly what you two were acting like, in my eyes. Arrogant, in that fact that you both kept going on and on like the energizer bunny, wanting and thinking to be right.
I dislike discussing religion just as much, if not more than politics.... *shiver* So, I'll drop out with the mommy attitude and allow James to keep a healthy level of arrogance in here.
Oh and David.... Of course we're still friends. :)
we don't need religion to experience spirituality. In fact, religion confuses many people in finding their spiritual path.
You know something?
I think you may both have inspired me to ignore the Christian Apologists and Muslims with all I have in me from this day forward.
I have my beliefs and I see no reason to ram them repeatedly down the throats of those who do not share my viewpoint.
What I DO know is you both should be ashamed of yourselves. You BOTH come across writing posts that subtly flame and insult the other, then when your target calls you out on it.. you back pedal and claim "Oh NOOOooo... I wasn't INSULTING you... I MEANT to say.... blah blah." Like everyone here can't see you both spewing this pseudo-intellectual vomitus at one another?
Believe what you are gonna believe. TALK about what you want to talk about. Let everyone else deal with their own, how shall I say this?... uh.... olfactory sensitivity to barnyard effluvium as you both turn off more people to your repective religions as you drone on and on.
This is already a site that is spiritual in nature. Its a path we all walk. "Called to it" in our own way. If you believe in Allah or God or whatever, at least believe A LOVING ENTITY WILL LOVINGLY GUIDE YOU ON A PATH SUITABLE FOR YOU TO DISCOVER WHAT YOU MUST. PERIOD.
In any case, the primary "respect" paid to love is always FREE WILL. If we reach to our God, from our own loving free will, then we can be sure that the response will be -- in many respects -- unique to us and very likely custom designed for our particular calling.
I think you both need to pour a big glass of Shut The F*CK UP ALREADY.
Sorry for the outburst. I'm not pretending to be calm when I'm irritated. That would be dishonest.
Sickened, but still love y'all,
C
:-D Well whatta ya know all the loving people coming out of the woodwork, as soon as the debate get a bit edgy. The kind spirited replies overwhelm me.....shut the yap.....shut the piehole .....shut the f***up, I guess I hit a raw nerve. Examine these things for yourself.
Jeehad please explain to me the Islamic doctrines of "Naskh" "Taqiyya" and "Tu-Quoque" I would be interested in your take on that.
Regards Mustardseed
MS.... it isn't edgy, it's overplayed. People have come out of the woodwork because they feel either uncomfortable, don't agree or FED up because they don't agree. hehe. You yourself have said this particular forum was created by US moderators to separate from the rest. I, for sure thought you would find the piehole comment funny, but.......is this what religion does to ones humor, or does humor do this to ones religion?
You are loved...at least by me, and should not feel the need to continue trying to convince others of your beliefs. I miss the clown......
I, for one, have the nerve to reply to MS on this:
I'm not disagreeing.
I'm not uncomfortable.
I am absolutely fed up.
.... and I still hold to the fact that you both are behaving poorly.
As ambassadors to your systems of belief, you should both be reading your own prior posts with an eye towards behavior. MS was ready to stop talking about this kindly about seven pages ago. Apparently that kindness hides a temper tantrum. Jeehad, you defend your faith vehemently... with all the arrogance of your age.
I cannot even believe you two would bother. I think you will, once you both simmer down, have a proper embarrassment.
Not for your beliefs.
For the way you behaved in arguing them.
I'll demonstrate by example. I'm not even bothering with this thread again. MY post was to tell you one thing only: You are both being childish.
Period.
C
Quote from: outofbodydude on February 26, 2007, 17:59:42
Now the question is... how long before it is discovered to be a hoax? (Just like every other artifact that "proved" Big J's existance)
Not long at all -- it was on CNN's main page yesterday:
QuoteJERUSALEM (AP) -- Filmmakers and researchers on Monday unveiled two ancient stone boxes they said may have once contained the remains of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, but several scholars derided the claims made in a new documentary as unfounded and contradictory to basic Christian beliefs.
"The Lost Tomb of Jesus," produced by Oscar-winning director James Cameron and scheduled to air March 4 on the Discovery Channel, argues that 10 small caskets discovered in 1980 in a Jerusalem suburb may have held the bones of Jesus and his family.
One of the caskets even bears the title, "Judah, son of Jesus," hinting that Jesus may have had a son, according to the film. (Watch why it could be any Mary, Jesus and Joseph in those boxes )
"There's a definite sense that you have to pinch yourself," Cameron said Monday at a news conference. He told NBC'S "Today" show earlier that statisticians found "in the range of a couple of million to one" in favor of the documentary's conclusions about the caskets, or ossuaries. (Watch Cameron talk about his involvement in the documentary )
Simcha Jacobovici, the Toronto filmmaker who directed the film, said that a name on one of the ossuaries -- "Mariamene" -- offers evidence that the tomb is that of Jesus and his family. In early Christian texts, "Mariamene" is the name of Mary Magdalene, he said.
The very fact that Jesus had an ossuary would contradict the Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven.
Most Christians believe Jesus' body spent three days at the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem's Old City. The burial site identified in Cameron's documentary is in a southern Jerusalem neighborhood nowhere near the church.
In 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television.
"They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.
Shimon Gibson, one of three archaeologists who first discovered the tomb in 1980, said Monday of the film's claims: "I'm skeptical, but that's the way I am. I'm willing to accept the possibility."
The film's claims, however, have raised the ire of Christian leaders in the Holy Land.
Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight.
"I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this," Pfann said. "But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear."
"How possible is it?" Pfann said. "On a scale of one through 10 -- 10 being completely possible -- it's probably a one, maybe a one and a half."
Pfann is even unsure that the name "Jesus" on the caskets was read correctly. He thinks it's more likely the name "Hanun." Ancient Semitic script is notoriously difficult to decipher.
Kloner also said the filmmakers' assertions are false. "The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time," he said.
William Dever, an expert on near eastern archaeology and anthropology, who has worked with Israeli archeologists for five decades, said specialists have known about the ossuaries for years.
"The fact that it's been ignored tells you something," said Dever, professor emeritus at the University of Arizona. "It would be amusing if it didn't mislead so many people."
Osnat Goaz, a spokeswoman for the Israeli government agency responsible for archaeology, said the Antiquities Authority agreed to send two ossuaries to New York, but they did not contain human remains. "We agreed to send the ossuaries, but it doesn't mean that we agree with" the filmmakers, she said.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
Quote from: Mustardseed on February 27, 2007, 20:37:19
:-D Well whatta ya know all the loving people coming out of the woodwork, as soon as the debate get a bit edgy. The kind spirited replies overwhelm me.....shut the yap.....shut the piehole .....shut the f***up, I guess I hit a raw nerve. Examine these things for yourself.
Jeehad please explain to me the Islamic doctrines of "Naskh" "Taqiyya" and "Tu-Quoque" I would be interested in your take on that.
Regards Mustardseed
I think religion is essentially not the corrupt part, but rather man is. I mean, nowadays "religion" has been converted into a business. Although, this is not a product of the religion itself!! Where in Christianity does it allow any sort of "popes" "priests" to benefit from money by blessing people? Where do religions teach ignorance or hatred? Hatred is apart of our nature! This is why God created a perfect order, revelations sent down to mankind to guide us to the straight path. Let me go into an Islamic perspective, Islam is the submission or surrendering to the One Almighty God! This is the essential meaning! The Call to Islam was to humanity, to unite mankind out of a state of ignorance! I don't mean that an ignorant state is one who is a non Muslim! But rather Islam teaches us to bring mankind together! Re-Unite the covenant of man! Stop all business benefits off of religion!! Calling man to worship ONE GOD.
Servants of Allah the most Compassionate are those who walk on earth in modesty and if ignorant people address them, they say," Peace
(HQ: 25:63).
.. if anyone kills a person who did not kill, and did not mischief on earth, it would be as if he killed all human beings. And if any one saved a life of one person, it would be as if he saved the life of all human beings. (HQ: 5: 32) (Our translation)
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein
(HQ: 5: 14).
Everyone, I am sorry for this heated debate but I am entitled to defending claims in which MustardSeed is having against Muslims. I think people are misrepresenting this religion, and whether you are a believer or not one should truly look into such matters instead of making blind accusations.
MustardSeed:
Naskh is a form of Islamic calligraphy... Its like an artistic way of writing the Holy Quran I dont see why that needs explaining??
Taqqiya is widely unbelieved by the majority of Muslims, but some insist on it to be true!Lets sayyy all muslims were to be killed globally, taqiyya allows the person to hide or conceal his religious belief.
Tu-Quoque... Are you sure you got the name right?
Quote from: Jeehad on February 28, 2007, 18:14:36
.........whether you are a believer or not one should truly look into such matters instead of making blind accusations.
MustardSeed:
Naskh is a form of Islamic calligraphy... Its like an artistic way of writing the Holy Quran I dont see why that needs explaining??
Taqqiya is widely unbelieved by the majority of Muslims, but some insist on it to be true!Lets sayyy all muslims were to be killed globally, taqiyya allows the person to hide or conceal his religious belief.
Tu-Quoque... Are you sure you got the name right?
Hi Jeehad I agree lets examine facts not engage in heated arguments based on feelings. In the light of that let me help you.
(From WIKIPEDIA)
Naskh employs the logic of chronology and progressive revelation. The different situations encountered over the course of Muhammad's more than two decade career as prophet, it is argued, required new rulings to meet the Muslim community's changing circumstances. Or, from a more theologically-inflected stand-point, the expiration points of those rulings God intended as temporary all along were reached. A classic example of this is the early community's increasingly militant posture towards its pagan and Jewish neighbors:
Many verses counsel patience in the face of the mockery of the unbelievers, while other verses incite to warfare against the unbelievers. The former are linked to the [chronologically anterior] Meccan phase of the mission when the Muslims were too few and weak to do other than endure insult; the latter are linked to Medina where the Prophet had acquired the numbers and the strength to hit back at his enemies. The discrepancy between the two sets of verses indicates that different situations call for different regulations.
Burton, Naskh, Encyclopaedia of Islam (EI)²
Read the full article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_%28exegesis%29
Yes I am pretty sure, all you need to do is copy the word into Wikipedia or Google
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/tuquoque.html
That is not so hard is it.
For your benefit here is an article by a former Muslim
http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Infidel.htm
Come now Jeehad, were you really not aware of this?
Regards Mustardseed
AL-NASIKH WA AL-MANSUKH
The revelations from Allah as found in the Qur'an touch on a variety of subjects, among them beliefs, history, tales of the prophets, day of judgement, Paradise and Hell, and many others. Particularly important are the ahkam (legal rulings), because they prescribe the manner of legal relationships between people, as Allah wishes them to be observed.
While the basic message of Islam remains always the same, the legal rulings have varied throughout the ages, and many prophets before Muhammad brought particular codes of law (shari'a) for their respective communities.
The Arabic words 'nasikh' and 'mansukh' are both derived from the same root word 'nasakha' which carries meanings such as 'to abolish, to replace, to withdraw, to abrogate'.
The word nasikh (an active participle) means 'the abrogating', while mansukh (passive) means 'the abrogated'. In technical language these terms refer to certain parts of the Qur'anic revelation, which have been 'abrogated' by others.
Naturally the abrogated passage is the one called 'mansukh' while the abrogating one is called 'nasikh'.
The Qur'an on Naskh The principle of naskh (abrogation) is referred to in the Qur'an itself and is not a later historical development:
'
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou that God has power over all things?' (2: 106). [Some however say that this refers to the revelations before the Qur'an, which have now been substituted by the Qur'an itself. See Mawdudi. The Meaning of the Qur'an, Lahore,
1967, Vol. I, p.102. note 109.]
How it came about When the message of Islam was presented to the Arabs as something new, and different from their way of life, it was introduced in stages. The Qur'an brought important changes gradually, to allow the people to adjust to the new prescriptions.
Example: There are three verses in the Qur'an concerning the drinking of wine. Wine drinking was very widespread in pre-Islamic times and, although a social evil, highly esteemed. The three verses which finally led to the prohibition of intoxicating substances were revealed in stages (4: 43, 2: 219; 5: 93-4).
Why it is important Knowledge of al-nasikh wa al-mansukh is important because it concerns the correct and exact application of the laws of Allah. It is specifically concerned with legal revelations:
It is one of the important pre-conditions for explanation (tafsir) of the Qur'an.
It is one of the important pre-conditions for understanding and application of the Islamic law (hukm,
shari'a).
It sheds light on the historical development of the Islamic legal code.
It helps to understand the immediate meaning of the ayat concerned.
Tafsir (explanation of the Qur'an) or legal ruling is not acceptable from a person who does not have such knowledge.
How do we know it?
As in the field of asbab al-nuzul, the information about al-nasikh wa al-mansukh cannot be accepted upon mere personal opinion, guesswork or hearsay, but must be based on reliable reports, according to the ulum al-hadith, and should go back to the Prophet and his Companions.
The report must also clearly state which part of the revelation is nasikh and which is mansukh.
Some scholars say that there are three ways of knowing about al-nasikh wa al-mansukh:
Report from the Prophet or Companions.
Ijma' (consensus of the umma upon what is nasikh and what mansukh).
Knowledge about which part of the Qur'an preceded another part in the history of revelation. [Qattan,
op.cit., p. 199]
Example:
Narrated Mujahid (regarding the verse):
Those of you who die and leave wives behind, they (their wives) shall await (as regards their
marriage) for four months and ten days (2: 234).
The widow, according to this verse, was to spend this period of waiting with her husband's family, so Allah revealed: Those of you who die and leave wives (i.e. widows) should bequeath for their wives, a year's maintenance and residence without turning them out, but if they leave (their residence) there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is honourable (i.e. Lawful marriage) (2: 240).
So Allah entitled the widow to be bequeathed extra maintenance for seven months and 20 nights and that is the completion of one year. If she wished, she could stay (in her husband's home) according to the will, and she could leave it if she wished, as Allah says: Without turning them out, but if they leave (the residence) there is no blame on you.
So the idea (i.e. four months and ten days) is obligatory for her. 'Ata' said: Ibn 'Abbas said: This verse i.e. the statement of Allah ... without turning one out ... cancelled the obligation of staying for the waiting period in her late husband's house, and she can complete this period wherever she likes.
'Ata' said: If she wished, she could complete her 'idda by staying in her late husband's residence according to the will or leave it according to Allah's statement:
'There is no blame on you for what they do with themselves.'
'Ata' added: Later the regulations of inheritance came and abrogated the order of the dwelling of the widow (in her dead husband's house) so she could complete the 'idda wherever she likes. And it was no longer necessary to provide her with a residence.
Ibn Abbas said: This verse abrogated her (i.e. the widow's) dwelling in her dead husband's house and she could complete the 'idda (i.e. four months and ten days) (wherever she liked, as Allah's statement says: ...'without turning them out ...'
[Bukhari, VI, No. 54.]
This report explains clearly which part of the revelation is nasikh and which is mansukh. Mujahid was one of the wellknown tab'iun and Ibn 'Abbas was a Companion of the Prophet.
What is Abrogated?
According to some scholars the Qur'an abrogates only the Qur'an. They base their view on suras 2: 106 and 16: 101.
According to them the Qur'an does not abrogate the sunna nor does the sunna abrogate the Qur'an. This is, in particular, the view held by Shafi'i. [For details see Kitab al-risala, Cairo, n.d., pp.30-73; English translation by M. Khadduri, op.cit.,
pp. 12345; for a brief summary of Ash-Shafi'i's views see also Seeman, K., Ash-Shafi'is Risala, Lahore, 1961, pp.53-85.]
Others are of the opinion that the Qur'an may abrogate the Qur'an as well as the sunna. They base their view on Sura 53: 34.
There is also the view that there are four classes of naskh:
Qur'an abrogates Qur'an.
Qur'an abrogates sunna.
Sunna abrogates Qur'an.
Sunna abrogates sunna.
[Qattan, op.cit, pp. 201-2.]
In this discussion, we shall only consider the abrogation in the Qur'an, and leave aside the abrogation in the sunna.
Three Kinds of Naskh in the Qur'an
[Ibn Salama, al-nasikh wa al-mansukh, Cairo, 1966, p.5.]
The scholars have divided abrogation into three kinds:
Abrogation of the recited (verse) together with the legal ruling.
Abrogation of the legal ruling without the recited (verse).
Abrogation of the recited (verse) without the legal ruling.
For abrogation of the recited (verse) together with its legal ruling:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear
sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and
Allah's apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and
recited by the Muslims). [34 Muslim, II, No. 3421.]
For abrogation of a legal ruling without the recited (verse):
'O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou has paid their dowers; and
those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to
thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts and daughters of thy maternal uncles
and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any believing woman who dedicates
her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her; - this only for thee and not for the
believers (at large);We know what we have appointed for them as to their wives and the
captives whom their right hands possess; - in order that there should be no difficulty for
thee and God is oft-forgiving, most merciful' (33: 50).
'It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other)
wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as
handmaidens); and God doth watch over all things' (33: 52).
This is one of the few very clear examples of naskh, though only concerning the Prophet specifically, since for Muslims in general the number of wives has been restricted to four. (Sura 4:3).
For abrogation of the recited (verse) without the legal ruling:
'Abdullah bin 'Abbas reported that 'Umar bin Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's messenger (may peace
be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and he sent
down the book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We
recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's messenger (may peace be upon him)
awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and after him, we
also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget
it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the book of Allah, and thus go astray by
abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's book for married men and
women who commit adultery when proof is established, or if there is pregnancy or a confession. [Muslim,
III, No. 4194; Bukhari, VIII, No. 816.]
The punishment of stoning for adultery by married people has been retained in the sunna, while it is not included in the
Qur'an .
The Abrogated Verses
There are, according to Ibn Salama, [Op cit., see pp.6-8 for the names of these suras.] a well-known author on the
subject:
43 suras with neither nasikh or mansukh.
6 suras with nasikh but no mansukh.
40 suras with mansukh but no nasikh.
25 suras with both nasikh and mansukh.
According to Suyuti's Itqan there are 21 instances in the Qur'an, where a revelation has been abrogated by another.
He also indicates that there is a difference of opinion about some of these: e.g. 4: 8, 24: 58, etc. [Itqan, II, pp.20-3; Kamal, op.cit., pp.101-9 also gives Suyuti's complete list.]
Some scholars have attempted to reduce the number of abrogations in the Qur'an even further, by explaining the relationships between the verses in some special ways, e.g. by pointing out that no legal abrogation is involved, or that
for certain reasons the naskh is not genuine
Shah Waliullah (d. 1759) the great Muslim scholar from India only retained the following 5 out of Suyuti's 21 cases as genuine:
Mansukh 2: 180 nasikh 4: 11, 12
Mansukh 2:240 nasikh 2: 234.
Mansukh 8:65 nasikh 8: 62.
Mansukh 30:50 nasikh 33: 52.
Mansukh 58: 12 nasikh 58: 13.
A case listed by Suyuti, which has no direct legal implication is the following:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: When the verse: 'If there are 20 amongst you, patient and persevering,
they will overcome two hundred', was revealed, it became hard on the Muslims, when it became
compulsory that one Muslim ought not to flee before 10 (non-Muslims) so Allah lightened the order by
revealing: 'but now Allah has lightened your (task) for He knows that there is weakness in
you. But (even so) if there are 100 amongst you who are patient and persevering, they will
overcome 200 (non-Muslims)' (8: 66). So when Allah reduced the number of enemies that Muslims
should withstand, their patience and perseverence against the enemy decreased as much as their task
was lightened for them. [Bukhari, VI, No.176.]
Still others hold that there are no genuine (sahih) reports available on this issue, going back to the Prophet, while those going back to the Companions contradict each other. [Ali, M.M.: The Religion of Islam, Lahore, 1936, p.32. It may be pointed out that Ali's treatment of the subject is not very thorough. Of the three examp1es he cites in support of his opinion ('in most cases, where a report is traceable to one Companion who held a certain verse to have been abrogated, there is another report traceable to another Companion, through the fact that the verse was not abrogated' - p. 33) two are definitely not in his favour, while the third can be easily explained. His first case concerns Sura 2:180 (inheritance). It has certainly been superseded by other verses, e.g. 4:7-9 and that is probably all that is meant, when saying it is mansukh Ali's second case, '2:184, is considered by Ibn 'Umar as having been abrogated while Ibn 'Abbas says it was not' . See below, where I have quoted this very hadith from Ibn 'Abbas (Bukhari, VI, No.32) where Ibn 'Abbas himself explains why he does not hold it as abrogated. The third case is, like the first one, definitely not in support of Ali: '2: 240
was abrogated according to Ibn Zubair, while Mujahid says it was not'. This is wrong, see Sahih Bukhari, VI, Nos. 53 and 54, where both Ibn Zubair and Mujahid hold the verse to be abrogated. Furthermore both Ibn Zubair and Mujahid are tabi'un, and not Companions (sahaba).]
Therefore to them the issue of nasikh wa al mansukh is perhaps not of great importance. However, it is clear from the Qur'an itself, (e.g. in the case of inheritance, 2: 180; 4: 7-9, etc.) that abrogation occurred occasionally. Hence it is wrong to completely ignore the subject.
Abrogation and Specification There is of course a difference between abrogation and specification. By the latter is meant that one revelation explains in more detail or according to specific circumstances how another revelation should be understood.
Example: Sura 2:183 says 'O you who believe, fasting is prescribed to you ...'
Narrated 'Ata' that he heard Ibn 'Abbas reciting the Divine verse 'for those who can do it is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent' (2:184). Ibn 'Abbas said 'This verse is not abrogated but it is meant for old men and old women who have no strength to fast, so they should feed one poor person for each day of fasting (instead of fasting). [Bukhari, VI, No. 32.]
It is quite clear that the second verse (2:184) does not abrogate the rule of fasting from the first verse (2:183) but explains that in a specific case, that of feeble old people, there is a way of making up for the loss of fast.
In the same way the verses concerning intoxicating drinks can be understood as specifications rather than abrogations (see 4:43;2:219;5:93-4).
Summary The Qur'an, in 2:106, refers to the concept of naskh. However, there is a difference of opinion about the extent to which al-nasikh wa-al mansukh does in fact occur in the text of the Qur'an. The information concerning al-nasikh wa-al mansukh must be treated with great caution as, for all reports concerning the text of the Qur'an, two independent witnesses are required. Many of the examples which the scholars have drawn upon to illustrate this question (and I have quoted them for the same purpose) are based on one witness only. 'A'isha alone reported that 10 or 5 sucklings had been part of the Qur'anic recitation, and only 'Umar reported that the 'verse of stoning' had been included in the Qur'anic text.
These legal rulings are not included in the Qur'an precisely because they were not considered reliable, being based on one witness only. Similarly, other examples about naskh, based on the words of Ibn 'Abbas or Mujahid alone, are to be judged by the same measure.
However, as mentioned there remain a small number of verses which, as far as can be ascertained from the internal evidence of the Qur'an, have been superseded by other verses in the Qur'an.
(From: Ulum al-Quran by Ahmad von Denffer)
ARRRGGGGG!!!!
Jeehad, Mustardseed,
Legal implications, new rulings, discrepancies, regulations.....
Ok guys, NOW do you see a big part of the reason why so many people are fed up with these religions?
Christ almighty!! (blasphemy intended)
If you REALLY want to know Gods will, throw away your interpretations and all their rules and regulations and JUST ASK GOD YOURSELF.
You two do know you can do that don't you?
I know I said that there is some great wisdom to be found in most religious texts, but you don't need books and prophets to know Gods will. You just have to ask God, then put your thoughts aside for a moment and quietly listen. It's really easy!
Direct connection to God is intrinsic in all people. It's just that most people have forgotten this, or have been told otherwise by self-serving religious leaders.
Taking the time to stop, ask, then listen to God has to be far more beneficial than arguing over who's interpretation of God's / Allah's will is more correct.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ok4Hv0LQiIA
A bit of a laugh anyone? :-D
LOL!!!
That brings back memories... my time spent in raving mad Pentecostal churches...
Gee, thanks Talanay! All that therapy to help me forget gone out the window! :wink:
Never let it be said that the power of suggestion (not to mention a good shove) doesn't have an effect.
Quote from: James S on March 02, 2007, 19:57:34
LOL!!!
Never let it be said that the power of suggestion (not to mention a good shove) doesn't have an effect.
It'd be funnier if it weren't so scary!!! My mother dragged me to one of Benny's meetings several years ago, and whole sections of people were flying all over the place! I hid on the floor under some seats for awhile. It would have been more exciting if I had been 12 years old, but I was thirty-something! :roll: DH
Hi James and Nay
Please explain to me how I go about having this discussion with Jeehad, without continually being put down, and ridiculed by the 2 of you. Your ongoing slurs and you-tube clips appear very condescending. Nay you know very well that all that Church s*** is a very disgusting to me as well, so why do you post it here. Are you trying to bully us into having our debate in another net forum?. James, you have so often told me how important it is not to put down other's faith, you also confess that you yourself do not have the ultimate truth, but subscribe to a belief system like the rest of us. In the light of this, I find it extremely hypocritical that you continue this line of heckling.
Jeehad and I are trying to work through something, that means something to us. These are issues that concern us and we would like to discuss them without your continued belittling. By now it is obvious that you do not see the importance of this discussion so why do you continue to post. In my opinion you should remember that when you point at others you have 3 fingers pointing back at yourself.
The fact that you are both moderators should ensure a fair and decent debate. This is below you both, and saddens me.
Regards Mustardseed
Mustardseed,
Who's heckling? I'm just stating this as I see it or have experienced it. In my experiences the Youtube clip Talanay posted is so very typical of religious con-artists such as these tele-evangelists. I've been to churches that do that and they are very definitely frauds! To me that's not putting down someone's faith. That's just pointing out how easy it is for these evangelical con men to manipulate and subjugate people.
Besides, it was put across in an amusing way. You know, humour?
Didn't someone here say recently that the first thing lost to religions is a sense of humor?
I've been in those kind of church meetings. That's why I found it hilarious!
You keep throwing up that I subscribe to a belief system like its some precious fragile treasure.
You seem to think that I'm going to be as defensive about it as you are about yours.
It's not fragile and it certainly does not need defending in any way. Besides, in order for me to feel the need to defend my belief system I'd first have to define it, and I don't think there's any way I can do that - it changes from day to day, just as my experiences, perceptions and understandings change. It grows and evolves. I guess you could say that my belief system is... me.
And your right, I do not see the importance of this ongoing "discussion" you are having with Jeehad because I see it as purely a reactive, defensive, insecure, ego-driven tit for tat "mine's better than yours" schoolyard argument.
I'm sorry MS, but your "discussions" are not going anywhere, nor will they ever until you are willing to stop looking at things through the eyes of a rigid belief system based on a book written not quite 200 years ago, and stop feeling the need to continually defend it.
Quote from: outofbodydude on January 07, 2007, 03:46:41
Then what is Christianity? I know a PhD in biblical studies who is Christian and is head over heals for the bible. What do you mean by .. christianity is not the bible. Christianity is simply a compilation of ancient beliefs accompanied by poor story telling. And this garbage is what Christians beleive.
I agree Bud
Great post BTW
Show them the money .........
A classic question : Who wrote the bible ?
With Love
Very interesting question indeed. The answer is a bit of a leap of faith for some but let me try to explain what Christians believe (note:believe) happened.
In actual fact God wrote the Bible...............
Before you jump to any conclusions let me validate this by a explanation in New Age terms. The Bible is believed to be the channelings of various holy men. As each one was touched by "the holy Spirit" they channeled His voice. Some of the Bible, the OT is believed to be a historical account of the Jewish nation, though this is also a hotly debated issue. Dis the Jewish nation even exist. It is the topic of multitudes of books and cannot be ascertained, nor denied.
Thats the lowdown
Regards Mustardseed
Quote from: Mustardseed on July 18, 2007, 12:15:42
Very interesting question indeed. The answer is a bit of a leap of faith for some but let me try to explain what Christians believe (note:believe) happened.
In actual fact God wrote the Bible...............
Before you jump to any conclusions let me validate this by a explanation in New Age terms. The Bible is believed to be the channelings of various holy men. As each one was touched by "the holy Spirit" they channeled His voice. Some of the Bible, the OT is believed to be a historical account of the Jewish nation, though this is also a hotly debated issue. Dis the Jewish nation even exist. It is the topic of multitudes of books and cannot be ascertained, nor denied.
Thats the lowdown
Regards Mustardseed
Hi Bud
Could be the info was channeled. But then the question would be - Why did it take the church (Roman Catholics - Pope etc), over 200years to approve witch books to include in the bible ? And even in recent times, new "lost" books appear all over the place - books meant to be in the bible.
Can you explain your opinion on that ?
No, I'm not attacking you, just wanting to know where you come from with your info !
With Love
:-D
No offense taken.
At the time the counsel of Nicea was called, (I think 330 ad) a multitude of folks had channeled manuscripts, claiming they were "of God". It appears that there are 2 ways of looking at this council, in which it was decided what was to be the correct teaching.
Some say that the emperor wanted to consolidate his power and chose the manuscripts based on an attempt to control the Christians. Others say that he was a man with a sincere desire to clarify and establish a proper doctrine. The ones that were chosen had the same common denominators, sort of the same drift or red thread. Some differed vastly and taught things that made them stand alone, they were discarded.
Very much like any channeling today, it was (some believe) an attempt to validate which seemed to be consistent and coming from the same source.
Personally I believe that it is impossible to know what exactly was the motive of the ruler, and hence I prefer to let people believe what they want to believe. Some are by nature suspicious of everything and everybody, others are more positive and believing types. To each his own. The fact is that we were not there so we don't know.
Regards Mustardseed
outofbodydude,
Great post, I am certain you are aware that although these concepts are nothing new, the content of your post can be watched online(in the first 10 -35 minutes) in the 2 hours movie called Zeitgeist. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&q=zeitgeist+final&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331&q=zeitgeist+final&total=4&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)
Quote from: Apeman on July 19, 2007, 02:56:36
Could be the info was channeled. But then the question would be - Why did it take the church (Roman Catholics - Pope etc), over 200years to approve witch books to include in the bible ? And even in recent times, new "lost" books appear all over the place - books meant to be in the bible.
Can you explain your opinion on that ?
Apeman,
In the first 200 years after Jesus appeared on earth, there were many diverse "Jesus" groups that sprung up. They were radically different in their beliefs, such as Jewish Christians, gnostic Christians, Mithric Christians, Platonic Christians, and those who would now be called "orthodox" Christians. Each Christian group had its own sacred writings, but there was no Bible as we know it now. Some groups included the writings we find in the Bible now, but many more included those that were left out -- the "lost" books that you mention. There was no conformity. Nothing was considered THE official scripture. Each Christian group kind of did its own thing. Everybody minded his own business.
Then about 130 A.D., a Christian by the name of Marcion put together the first "Bible". He thought that the God of the Old Testament (the Jewish God) couldn't be the God of the NT because he was violent and ordered his people to slaughter innocents, and the the God of Jesus was about love and forgiving enemies. In his mind there were two different deities, and being a Christian, he chose Jesus' God. He therefore put together a "Bible" for his followers that excluded the OT and only had the Gospel of Luke and some of Paul's letters, both of which had any references to Judaism cut out. His brand of Christianity was popular among many and cursed by others, but it stirred up the debate: What should be the holy writings of Christianity? The debate went on for a couple of hundred more years until Constantine called the Council of Nicea to debate that issue, among other things. Was Constantine a pious Christian or a shrewd politician? I think the latter. He was trying to unify the Roman Empire, which meant stamping out dozens of diverse Christian groups in favor one strand. Of course, the sacred writings of the favored group were the ones that made the "official cut".
This is probably way more info than you want (sorry, I used to be a college professor! :-D), but the point is, there is nothing simple about the way the "Bible" as we now know it came to be. There has always been debate among Christians about what should be accepted as "God's Word". In the 16th century, Martin Luther, the Protestant reformer, edited the Catholic Bible, so the Bible most Protestant groups use now is different from the more ancient version. Even since that time, some Christian people have wondered, why stop there with the editing? Who has the final word about what is "God's Word"?
A good reference for this quagmire is Bart Erhman's book Lost Christianities.
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499/ref=pd_bbs_3/103-7969723-7860625?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184907450&sr=1-3
Kind regards, DH
Quote from: Mustardseed on July 18, 2007, 12:15:42
Very interesting question indeed. The answer is a bit of a leap of faith for some but let me try to explain what Christians believe (note:believe) happened.
In actual fact God wrote the Bible...............
Before you jump to any conclusions let me validate this by a explanation in New Age terms. The Bible is believed to be the channelings of various holy men. As each one was touched by "the holy Spirit" they channeled His voice. Some of the Bible, the OT is believed to be a historical account of the Jewish nation, though this is also a hotly debated issue. Dis the Jewish nation even exist. It is the topic of multitudes of books and cannot be ascertained, nor denied.
Thats the lowdown
Regards Mustardseed
Dont take this the wrong way put... God was the last person to write the bible.
Everything written is manmade references to the solar system which was then edided by romans to controll people and justify wars etc.
Most characters are just copies of older religions which were supposed to be myths, but well the romans decided in around 312 AD to change all that. Jesus was a real person all of a sudden, instead of a myth potraying the sun.
Do you know how many saviours born on the 25 of December by a Virgin there were in history?
Ever wonder why there are so many...
So how can a book, in which most of the things, inluding major holidays, events, characters, messages, morals, etc., are plagerized from older religion be the word of God?
But wait I have the Christian explanation:
The Devil put all those others characters who are just like Jesus into history to test our faith (now do u really believe that?)
Overall Christianity isn't that bad of a thing in most places, although its still beeing heavily abused in some countries, it should just be noted that this religion is copied from older ones and was used to justify bad things in the past. That probably was its main purpose in the Roman Empire and in the Dark Ages.
Quote from: Mydral on July 20, 2007, 02:08:34
Overall Christianity isn't that bad of a thing in most places, although its still beeing heavily abused in some countries, it should just be noted that this religion is copied from older ones and was used to justify bad things in the past. That probably was its main purpose in the Roman Empire and in the Dark Ages.
I wont take it the wrong way, but feel compelled to draw your attention to the fact that Christians are not the only ones to take advandage of religion. It is a known fact that Religion, being hardwired into the human nature, as it appears to be , has been used by political rulers ever since the beginning of time. Nothing new there. The fact is that since Christianity is the major religion and the base of western society, it gets the brunt of aggression from intellectuals, scholars and internet users. Once people attain a certain amount of education they rebel against hypocrisy where they see it...............in their own lives. This is also the reason so few rebel against Islam, they are smply uneducated. That and maybe the fact thet they most likely will get executed for doing so, in a Muslim state at least :-D
It is thought provoking to me that so many attack Christianity but few people bother to question Islam, a system and religion which is in every way more warlike and totalitarian. The teaching of Jesus center around love, the love of God and the love of your fellow man, anyone parting ways with these elementary Christian values are easily exposed as parting ways with the Spirit of his life or teachings. The same people who attack Christianity often tend to excuse Islam and Muslims in general, though the teachings are so clearly violent. Sura 9:5 is still the main verse in the Koran as pertains to the association Muslims are taught to have toward infidels. The spread of Islam by the sword is a command as well, hence the term Jihad.
This nauseous liberalism and political correctness gives way to some very interesting discussions, with western youngsters who have never lived in nor been subjected to a social order based on Sharia.
In my opinion Christianity is not revealed as a myth, but those who use Christianity as an excuse to mount wars kill the innocent and slaughter whole populations, are revealed as the hypocrites they truly are. This cannot be said about Muslims who attack these same imperialist forces in their own lands, and abroad, who defend their faith and spread their religion by killing the innocent with suicide bombs and worse.........they are at least not hypocrites but are following the teachings of the Koran and the Hadith very accurately indeed. The fact is that Osama is a very good and faithful Muslim, this is the reason for his appeal. Was he not following the Koran and the Hadith he would not have so many followers. He is also a monster mass murderer and a despicable person........but certainly a good Muslim.
I think it is time that the discussion in general starts to move into actual teachings of the various religions "on the market" instead of stopping short on social issues and behavior, of various followers of these religions. What do the Books teach. What is accepted behavior and how should a follower interact with the world around him or her.
We are in my opinion seeing the end of civilization as we know it, and as I stated in another thread, watch and learn, for the clouds are black with warning. Most of you on this forum has only perifial experience with Islam, but lots of experience with Christianity. Be careful who you attack and carefull who you support, in word or deed. If you want to see and feel how it works in a different Religious system, take a trip to Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Have a nice trip :-D.
Regards Mustardseed
Wow, this is a long thread! To begin, I must state that I read very little of it. When it comes to trying to figure out what Christ is about through academic debate, the results are uncertain. So I tried to find out through spiritual means, and had various experiences and received messages which showed that Jesus Christ did in fact live, was in fact crucified, and is a key part of divine reality. I couldn't tell you all of the specifics, but not in a fundamentalist way. I received messages and experiences in a manner where it is clear that they weren't the result of my mind spinning out hallucinations.
I know of other people who are not fundamentalists by any stretch of the imagination, who also had experiences with Christ.
I figure just about any person can find out for his or herself, if he or she humbly asks, and opens his or her self up to such an experience. One will accomplish far more this way, than relying on academic study.
Christianity has been pagan ever since it was accepted in Rome and the general church accepted Sunday worship and other pagan customs and traditions. This is how the catholic church was born. Many doctrines in the bible became distorted by pagan bias and now we Christians believe they are inherently immortal souls when their bible doesn't say that. As far as I know, most Christians are worshiping a false Christ. It's true that all over the globe there are other versions of the same kind of religion, but they might also be pagan version of some religion they originally had. The messiah who would come to die sinless for the sins of all humankind was prophesied in Eden when God talked of the enmity between the serpent and God's people (something like that...o.o), but before that were to take place, there was burned sacrifices of lambs and anything else kosher to even eat (like cattle such as bovine and fowl such farm birds i guess) o.O In China they used to worshiped a God of Heaven (Shang Di) which was much like the Hebrew God and their alter of heaven (Temple of Heaven) remains in China to this day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shangdi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Heaven
the dead have to be resurrected to go to heaven
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_the_dead#New_Testament_teachings
The soul in the bible (nephesh) isn't an inherently eternal immaterial entity (note i said inherently)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh
Very interesting about the word Nephesh. After taking a look at it, it struck me that the word 'individuality' would have fit quite well in many instances. Jung would have been proud. :lol:
Not a myth, but the greatest miracle of all. The astrological alignment of stars that tell the story of Jesus' birth and death was all planned by God!
Also, I believe religions are essentially the same. For one, Horus and Jesus' stories are very similar, yes. So what, if Christians are Egyptians? Stating those similarities is not debunking the religion, it's just saying, "hey, we believe the same as what they believe!"
Jesus was possibly a Reiki master, an explanation for all his healing miracles. He also probably a master of AP. He was probably so damn good he was able to keep his vibes high, yet on such a low-level plane, to appear ghostly but to appear to be walking on water. Use your knowledge of practices we use today to figure out the rest of Jesus' miracles. It's not hard.
Just my little input for all the Christians that need a good argument to go by.
The similarities are indeed very strong, not only surrounding the stories of Jesus, but specially the stories of the Old Testament fit in with Sumerian legend.
Taking the different time frames in consideration though, any comparison between Jesus and Horus, or Akhenaten, becomes unfounded. So little is known about Ancient Egypt, and at this point I'm not sure if it is a deliberate attempt to dumb down the crowds or if they really have no clue as to what the egyptians were about.
Horus, for example, is more indicative of a position, like bishop or priest, than to a person or deity. There were many 'Horuses', those were a race of beings, they had different characteristics, and they were extremely tall, I haven't heard stories of Jesus being a giant.
By the way, has anyone read the Nag Hammadi texts, and if so, what's your take on them? To me those writings are the real deal, simply because they say things that no one else could know except for a real God.
For those that are unfamiliar with the texts: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
I've read the Nag Hammadi library (I used to work in a church) and the problem with everything (or anything) to do with religion is that we tend to rely on the written word to work out how people used to live, and the Bible, the Sumerian codexes and other literature of the pre biblical, biblical and new testament eras (most of which I've read a lot of) mixes ritualistic stuff (after all religion was significant in the way things were written in almost all known human eras) with historical stuff and literary stuff: Teaching stories, poetry, etc. etc. into a mishmash of information. And then we, who come from cultures extremely different than the ones who wrote them, try to understand them from our cultural points of view, are not equipped to get any kind of accurate representation of how things were- what probably did happen, what probably didn't, and what could have.
That's why I applaud and endorse everyone reading everythng they can (if it interests them) to read all these ancient texts, to compare them with what we think we know about them, but to always realize that just because someone wrote something 6000 years ago doesn't mean it has some sort of overwhelming significance- other than what one person wants to make of it.
So when you read the translations of ancient texts- enjoy them. Be amazed at them. Find yourself having a glimpse of something extraordinary. But don't build a worldview on it. And for God's sake, don't make a religion about it. Remember that anything that ever was written by anyone- no matter when, where, or how- was written by God.
ps. on edit: Imagine the phrase today "Howling at the moon"
How many people in the future (if there is one, lol) can read some fine literature or science fiction, read a phrase like that and get a completely different idea of how we live? That's just one example.
Here are some of the experiences I had with Christ:
Years ago when I was an atheist I had what I refer to as a night in heaven experience. I found my self in space, but not physical space. I was very surprised to find out that God, Christ and the afterlife are realities. Not in a fundamentalist way, but in a wonderful way. Not only did I understand how God and the afterlife are true, I completely understood how it was possible for them to exist without having to think about it. It was like, "Oh yeah, of course!" It was a natural knowing that pervaded the realm I was in. The happiness level was wonderful. I understood that everything works out wonderfully in the end. I didn't see nor hear anybody, but I understood that many other beings abided in this realm. It seemed as if we were bodyless beings. The realm seemed to be permeated with light. At the end of the experience I saw a bright light, which I understood to represent Christ.
I can't recollect the full feeling of the above experience by thinking about it. However, I know that during the experience I had no doubts about what I was experiencing. I can't say how I managed to have the experience. My spirit guidance probably helped me have it. My guidance has helped me in numerous ways.
Here's another example. One night I was reading an Elaine Pagel's book and she wrote that the Gospel According to Thomas speaks of Jesus as if he is an enlightened being; the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke speak of him as if he is a messenger of God; and the Gospel of John speaks of him as if he is God incarnate. Before I went to sleep that night I asked for a dream that would tell me which gospel is accurate. In the middle of the night I woke up from a dream and got ready to take some notes. But then I saw a light flash. Before this experience I had seen spirits appear as flashes of light many times. This is how I see them when I see them through my crown chakra. The light I saw on this occasion was much larger and radiated much more energy than any of the light flashes I've experienced before. The energy felt divine. It felt more real than the physical World.
I forgot about my dream notes, turned off my night lamp, laid on my side, and was overcome with the energy I felt. This energy worked on my energetic system for about fifteen minutes. I have awakened kundalini and this energy felt more powerful and more directed than kundalini ever felt. I didn't see or hear Christ, but I felt that this energy was his presence. I had strong feelings of love, reverence, humility and gratitude towards him as this experience took place. Ever since the energy flow in my upper chakras has been more alive, clear and balanced.
Regarding which gospel is correct when it comes to who Christ is, I figure it is up to each person to decide. Whatever the case, this experience showed me that Christ can appear anywhere he wants to appear and in as many places as he wants. He has also appeared to me while showing me his human image. Or anyway, the image that history has recorded.
About a week ago I started to re-experience what I experienced when I had my night in heaven experience. I felt the reality of Christ. I couldn't feel it completely, because I had an energetic block in my third eye area. I believe this was due to my mental confusion about what type of authority Christ represents. During this experience I could feel his divine authority. I'm not certain how to reconcile that Christ is about authority and love at the same time. During this experience--I should say series of experiences--I'd experience something positive when I'd open to the truth that God has given Christ divine authority, and I'd experience something negative when I didn't. These mini-experiences went back and forth according to how I changed my perspective. For example, when I opened up to the principle of Christ having divine authority, my heart chakra opened up and my awareness expanded. Another positive example is I experienced myself walking up a flight of steps, a symbol for ascension. When I took on a perspective that didn't accept his divine authority, I'd experience something negative such as being in a claustrophobic room and I couldn't get any of the lights to turn on. My inability to turn on a light is a symbolic equivalent to not being able to open up to divine light. My spirit guidance has used such symbology in the past.
Don't take my word for it. This is something each person has to figure out for his or her self.