JESUS AND CHRISTIANITY REVEALED AS MYTH

[Mustardseed]

Hi Novice

Well at least there is something we agree on. I am totally in agreement with you regarding the oppression of the USA and its horrible wars. I do not see that on a political level one should be denied the right to retaliate and actually champion the cause of the oppressed be they Palestinian or otherwise. This is however not the issue we were discussing at all.

We were discussing the difference of the Koran and the Bible. The life of Muhammad and the Life of Jesus. We were discussing whether the Koran promotes and justifies violence. As far as I can see you have confirmed this. Whether violence is justifiable or not is a separate discussion. The Koran as you so clearly state believes in swift retaliation and promotes violence as a means of Holy war (war sanctioned by Allah) and the verses I quoted as well as your own statements are very clear.  I think you yourself has proved this point.

As far as my previous statement that the masses of Muslims are illiterate or poorly educated and therefore easy to stir into a religious fervor, using the Koran is also quite evident. It is a fact, that the masses of Muslims fly off the handle if anyone offends them. They kill and justify killing if their Koran is soiled, and go into a rage if it is made fun off. In short they are volatile and easily incited to violence , because of their RELIGION as well as their ignorance, and pride. 

Violence is an accepted part of life in Muslim countries honor killings revenge etc and you know that. The reason this is accepted is that it is sanctioned in the Koran.

Muhammad was a violent man. He saw himself as the instrument of Allah to kill the infidels and the ones who went against him or what he saw as the cause of Allah. He lived a violent life, and his followers have taken his example.

While it is true that there are violent men who claim to be Christians there is no support in the life of Jesus for violence, there is no passages in the New Testament that promotes or justifies revenge. Jesus lived a life of peace and is called the prince of Peace. This is also fact, he even was killed without taking up arms against his killers and on the Cross asked God to forgive them. The statement you made or rather the question ...

(jeehad)Now, tell me Doesn't it say in Christianity whoever dies a Christian? Or dies defending Gods religion will surely enter paradise? 

the answer is a resounding NO. There is no such tenant in Christianity. There are talk about people who die as martyrs,being killed WITHOUT taking up arms, praying for their enemies and blessing the ones who kill them, but nowhere is a Christian encouraged to use violence as a means of getting revenge or spreading the gospel. It is a non-violent religion.


Now this is the facts that we see before us, and my statements are made based on these facts.

I believe that you cannot have it both ways, you cannot state the right of one to defend yourself using violence, and then claim that you are not a violent man. If you use violence to solve a problem......by definition you are a violent man. If a religion states its followers may can should or must use violence in defense of its tenants it is by definition a religion who believes that Violence is a accepted means to an end and then again by definition ......a violent religion.

I am truly sorry for the hurt and injustice and pain the people living in the mid east has suffered at the hands of the powers in the west. This is however not the subject of our discussion.

Regards Mustardseed

     

[outofbodydude]

Hey mustardseed and jeehad.  I was involved with a heated debate over a similar religious topic not too long ago.  It stemmed from this here thread, on another forum.  It went back and forth until it seemed like there would be no end.  And that is when I realized that there would be no end.  These type of things cannot be settled.  Mustardseed, you have your beliefs.  Jeehad, you have your beliefs.  So just end it at that.  Stop trying to confince eachother that your are right.  Because who cares?  Who cares what anyone else thinks?  Thats not important.  You should know this.  Just agree to dissagree, stop judging eachothers characters, and let eachother have your own belief.  All that debates like this cause is stress and anger.  Because, even if one of you do wind up convincing the other... which WILL NEVER HAPPEN... what good will come of that anyway?  NOTHING.

[Nay]

Well said!!  I second that and third that and fourth that!

[Jeehad]

I'm sorry but the comments MustardSeed is making are absolutely ABSURD. Your saying most of the arab world is illiterate? HELLO... The Muslims invented algebra, the base function for mathematics, medicine and many other contributions to science and technology.. In fact the Islamic empire flourished into the greatest civilization at that time period. Look at the Christians history! the entire History is a constant struggle for ethnic and racial cleansing.Christianity couldn't even survive without separating Church from State, because of the conflicting scientific parallels in the bible(I posted it but YOU STILL FAILED TO form a rebuttle as usual). Lets take Spain for an example.When the Muslims ruled Spain, JEWS CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS were living side by side with each other in harmony, UNTIL Queen Isabella ordered anyone who did not take up roman catholicism to leave..... Earlier I just wrote you a speech on the reasons of terrorism and you still justifiably account it for the religion of Islam? I JUST REFUTED EACH OF YOUR CLAIMS and you still cannot rebuttal such facts... Right now I'm wondering if you even read what I say... It seems as though all your claims are the same unchanged without any proof to back up. Btw you say "martyrdom" isnt in Christianity but answer this, didn't Jesus die for our sins? What difference does it make that Jesus died on the cross for us and human beings dying for God? See, you are misinterpreting the meaning of true "martyrdom" with the media conceptions. MArtyrdom is not suicide bombing, or killing a crapload of innocent lives... In fact true martyrdom is one who struggles in the way of God this is known as a Mujahid. One who studies for the sake of understanding Gods "ideas" is considered a martyr. One who defends himself against oppression,hate violence is a martyr. One who stands up for what they believe in is a Martyr.Muhammed once said that the ink of a scholar is holier then the blood of a martyr. The problem with you MustardSeed is you presume these ideas which have stigmas attached to them as apart of the Islamic religion WHEN YOU YOURSELF know its just some media bovine excrement used to stir a population of people into a war. Now, you say "using violence to fight violence isn't the answer" Islam tells us to incline towards PEACE with the enemy first. This was a routine Muhammed(pbuh) used when dealing with the Meccans where he proposed FREEDOM to live with there own beliefs. Imagine, he sat next to people who killed his family to discuss peace prepositions(this is all historically documented). The Meccans refused this offer! Now, tell me... If a giant army of Arabs were going to invade the USA do you think the US will sit there and allow such a thing to occur? NO, OF COURSE NOT! Force is not acceptable to be used on the innocence in wars. Islam teaches to defend yourself but to never incite your hatred among people.

"Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression." (5:2).

"And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness" (5:..

Please do not make your judgments based on the ideas of what the media tells you. Form them from your own learning, and as you have demonstrated to me that you are completely unlearned in history,politics and even religion.  For the AstralPulse community, I'm DEARLY DEARLY DEARLY sorry for continuing this ongoing debate, but you all must understand as a Muslim I must defend My beliefs and explain such matters to a confused person. I am but only 16 years old and I understand that I HAVE ALOT to learn, but it is my duty to use as much as I understand and know to rid of this Islamophobia produced by western civilizations.

P.S I'm still waiting on a response to the scientific errors in the bible

[Mustardseed]

Dear Jeehad
I realise that our discussion has gone on too long. I have already adressed the issues you refer to, but you have rejected my line of argument as being absurd. I therefor concede that we simply do not agree and can no longer in earnest discuss the subject.

Regards Mustardseed

In case you missed this post, it was intended for Novice consider this article

Status of Muslim Societies around the World
Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,
(Retd.  Scientist (Deputy Director), National Botanical Research Institute, Lucknow)
Address: C / 3-2 Shahid Apartments, Golaganj, Lucknow - 226 018
Tel. : 0522-2610683 Email: mihfarooqi@satyam.net.in

There was a time when Islamic Civilization was considered to be the most advanced, tolerant and progressive Civilization in the world. This was mainly because of their accomplishments in practically all the disciplines of knowledge. After 16th century AD, the situation changed drastically. Learning and inquiry was no more the motto of the Muslims with the result that today they occupy the lowest position in the ladder of the world. They are educationally backward, scientifically marginal, politically insignificant and economically poor. This is the present status of the entire Ummah amongst the comity of nations.

Some years back, a well-known economist, Dr Kenneth David, presented World Bank Survey of 1980, on the educational and economic status of religious societies of the world in his book entitled "The Cultural Environment of International Business". UNDP in 1996 also presented an exhaustive status report of UN Member counties. Since then Human Development Index reports are being issued every year for about one hundred and seventy countries. These important documents are highly revealing since they   describe living conditions of all the religious societies i.e. Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, tribal religions and Muslims as well as non-religious communist society. According to these studies, Christian society is the most advanced society of the world with regard to education, health and economic wealth whereas Muslim society is the most backward on these counts. Based on the reports by David and UNDP, disparities of the status of Muslim and Christian societies are being given in the present paper.

According to Kenneth David, literacy of Christian world in 1980 was on an average 90% and about 15 countries had a literacy of 100%. On the other hand, average literacy in the Muslim countries was less than 40% and none had 100% literacy. More or less the same situation continued afterwards and in 2001 UNDP reported an average of 60 percent literacy in Islamic countries and between 95 to 100% in the Western nations of Christians. Among the literates of the Christian world, hardly 2% of the population did not complete school education whereas 50% of the so-called literates of the Muslim societies never attended modern schools. In the Christian society literacy implies education of at least primary level whereas in Muslim society a person who could read and write is considered to be literate. If the criterion of the Christian world is taken into account then hardly 10% population of the Muslim countries can claim to be literate. The importance of education in the Christian countries can be judged by the fact that around 40% get higher education including specialization in various disciplines of science. This is less than 2% in Muslim countries. Even the standard of higher education of the meagre 2% is lower in Muslim countries when compared with the Christian world. As a matter of fact, many of the highly educated Muslims get specialized knowledge of science, engineering and medicine in the Christian West. This is in contrast with the situation prevailing during Middle Ages when Christians used to travel to Muslim Spain for getting higher education in medicine, mathematics, physics, chemistry, astronomy etc.

Education is directly related with the economy of any society; higher the education, better the economic growth. According to Kenneth half of the Muslim population (about 1.3billion), had the per capita GDP of $ 200, whereas very few Muslim countries including oil-producing nations had the per capita income of $1000 or more. As compared to this, more than half of the Christian population had an income (per capita GDP) of $7000, and the average was around $3000.This was all about the status of the Muslim and the Christian world in 80's. After 1980, world's economic order was raised to great heights. According to UNDP report of 1999, economy of European countries advanced to the extent that their per capita income was raised to about $ 25,000 and the rest of the Christian countries saw a rise up to $10,000. In comparison with this rise of economic status of the western countries, Muslim countries lagged far behind and their average per capita GDP advanced to hardly a thousand dollars. Only few oil producing countries could manage an average per capita GNP of $5000 or more. But they constitute hardly ten per cent of the entire Muslim population. It may be stated here that as per the report in OIL AND GAS GENERAL (1998), out of 18 oil-producing countries, 10 are Muslim nations, producing 40% of the world's total petrol production. In spite of this God's gift, Muslim society is economically much weaker than the Christian society

The reports suggest that after 1980 Muslim countries could not compete with the western world in the field of economic growth. The main reason for this unfortunate situation was their rivalries amongst themselves resulting in very high expenditure on their respective defence budgets. For instance, Saudi Arabia's per capita income in 1980 was $ 7,690, which dropped to $ 7,040 in 1996 mainly because of the Iraq-Kuwait conflict. Likewise, income of Iran, Iraq and Libya (all oil producing countries) also dropped considerably. As against this dismal position, per capita income of Germany advanced from  $9,580 in 1980 to $      28,870 in 1996. Per capita incomes of Britain, France and Australia etc similarly improved tremendously.

After the Second World War, almost all the countries of the world have been busy in increasing their military capabilities. Muslim nations, inspite of the poverty of their people are also involved in this mad race for military might. They have large trained armies, which are estimated to be 100million. This is one third of the total world armed forces. After the Second World War, there has not been any major Christian-Muslim armed conflict, except the recent Iraq and Afghanistan crises but there have been several bloody wars amongst Muslim nations themselves in which millions have lost their lives.

Muslim nations spend 10-30% of their GDP towards purchasing sophisticated and deadly arms and ammunitions from the West. On the other hand, western nations spend about 10% of their wealth on their arms procurement, which is carried out within the Christian world.

According to Kenneth, there are several factors for the backwardness of the Muslim society. First and foremost is their illiteracy in general and women illiteracy in particular. Another major reason of Muslim fall is the fact that hardly 16% of population is involved in industrial production. It is important to note that 60% of Christian population is engaged in industry. High population growth is another major factor for Muslim backwardness because this rapid population rise neutralizes whatever economic development takes place in Muslim Societies. Human Development Index prepared by UNDP gives a very dismal picture of the status of literacy, health and economy of Muslim nations. In the first 25 best countries listed under HDI (2002), no Muslim country figured in the list. Barring few small oil producing Muslim nations, majority of the Islamic world lies in the middle and low categories of human development, a clear indication that the Islamic nations needs to increase their focus on human development. Latest data (2002) about the Human Development Index (HDI) and Per capita GDP of some of the important and large populated Muslim countries are as follows;

                          HDI             Income
                                         (Per Capita)

Indonesia:       112                    850$
(Population 210 M)         

Bangladesh:                              139                    350$
(150 M)       

Pakistan,         144                    500$
(1300 M)

India                 127                    500$
(I Billion, Muslims, 140 M)

Egypt:               120                  1200$
(70 M)

Turkey               96                  2700$
(65 M)                   

Iran                   106                 $1,600
(70 M)

S. Arabia            73                 $9,000
(22 M)               

Malaysia            58                 $4,000
(25 M)

Sudan              138                    $450
(30 M)

Nigeria             152                    $350
(120 M)

Libya                  61                 $7,000
(6 M)                       

Morocco          126                 $1,300
(30 M)

Afghanistan    145                    $300
(24 M)             

Iraq                     74                 $5,500
(2.5 M)

Tunisia              91                 $2,000
(10 M)

Syria                 110                 $1,300
(15 M) 

Algeria               73                $1,700
(30 M)

It may be stated that the few Muslim countries, which do figure between 25 to 50 HDI, are Brunei, Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Bahrain and Qatar.  Their per capita GDP is also comparatively higher i.e. between 10,000 to 15,000 dollars but combined population of all these Muslim countries is hardly 30 millions. One must bear in mind that total GDP of all the Arab oil producing counties (12 in numbers) is less than the GDP of Spain alone. Ironically Muslim Spain during Middle Ages had higher revenue (because of the industrial products like Textile, Paper, mineral etc) than the whole of the Christian Europe (eleventh Century AD). Today Germany alone has a GDP of 3 thousand Billion Dollars that is almost twice of the entire Muslim World. Per capita GDP of major Christian countries is also staggering. A few examples with higher Human Development Index (HDI) and per capita incomes are as below:

                          HDI             Income
                                         (Per Capita)

USA                      7               37,000$
(270M)

Germany           18               25,000$
(90M)

UK                       13               $25,000
(60M)

France,              17               $25,000
(60M)

Canada                8               $26,000
(30M)

Italy                    21               $20,000
(60M)

Spain                  19               $17,000
(40M)

Netherlands       5               $26,000
(15M)

Denmark           11               $31,000
(5M)

Austria              16                $25,000
(6M)

Sweden,             3                $26,000
(10M)

Switzerland      10               $41,000
(7M)

Norway                1               $40,000
(5M)

Belgium               6               $24,000
(10M)

Russia               63                  $2,400
(150M)

Scientific achievement of the Muslim society  cannot be considered to be of any consequence. Out of the total of 2,60,000 articles published every year on scientific research, hardly 2,500 i.e. about 1% are published in Muslim countries. One can be reminded that during Middle Ages the situation was entirely different. According to European authors of History of Science almost ninety percent of scientific literature during Middle Ages was published (in Arabic) by Muslims of Spain, Egypt, Iraq, Iran etc.

There are many other parameters, which show the backwardness of Muslim Societies in scientific field. For instance, total number of Science Ph.D.'s produced by about 450 Universities of Muslim Countries every year is less than 500, whereas in UK alone this number is 3000. According to one estimate total strength of Engineers and Scientist in Muslim world (1.30billion) is less than the scientists and engineers working in France alone  (population 60million).

Well known Islamic thinker Maulana Abul Kalam Azad, once said while addressing Muslims at a Seminar,   " "You have spent several nights of indifference (Urdu-ghaflat) and complacency (Urdu-sarshari). For God's sake, get up now and see how much the sun has risen and how far your co-travelers (non-Muslims) have gone ahead of you".In the same seminar Maulana also said, '"after 16th Century, the situation of knowledge (Scientific) in Muslim and Christian societies changed completely. Now Christians started following Muslims way of progressive thinking and enquiry whereas Muslims copied Christian's way of life of Middle Ages that was full of superstition, bigotry and retrograde thoughts".

Maulana Rabey Hasan Nadvi, Rector of Nadva Islamic  University, Lucknow, also once wrote,  "Europe (West) became the leader of the world by working hard and following the path of scientific pursuit. On the other hand we (the Muslims) became indifferent towards knowledge and lost leadership of the nations".

According to Kenneth, practically every society of the world put hindrances (in the name of religion) in scientific development during 19th and 20th Century. Buddhists Priests opposed fast changing social order. Conflicts between Catholics and Protestants were the causes for slowing development in Europe. Caste differences among Hindus were reflected in the slow growth of their society. Sectarian hatred and too much interference of religious leaders (clerics) put difficulties in proper development of Muslims nations. In this regards David Kenneth says 'the way of life (standard of living) in Muslim countries cannot be altered unless the priests (Ulema) are favourable to proposed changes."

Kenneth further elaborates that Muslim Ulema , generally ignorant of the rapid development of Science and technology in  Western Nations and their high standard of living, consider the poor economic condition of the Ummah (Muslim society) to be the Divine Will. This is definitely unIslamic way of thinking. It was in this context that prominent Islamic scholars, like Afghani and Syed Sulaiman Nadvi, remarked, "Ulema ignorant of modern knowledge can not serve the Ummah". Maulana Abul Hasan Ali Nadvi, Founder Member of Rabita al-alam al-Islami (Muslim World League), also expressed his anguish over Muslim's indifference towards modern knowledge by saying, "Muslims forgot their own scientific way of thinking and followed only traditional knowledge. They therefore lagged behind in Science and Technology and thus became slaves of the scientifically advanced West". Mahathir Mohammad, Prime Minister of Malaysia also declared during the Islamic Conference in Kuala Lumpur recently that, " it is necessary for Muslims to give up their illogical beliefs and regressing thoughts and be prepared to face the challenges of the fast changing social order." He also cautioned, (at a meeting in London) ".our present  predicament is not pre-ordained by Allah.It is entirely due to our own doing. We rely merely on praying to Allah for help when Allah has said in the Quran that we have to help ourselves before He will help us. To ward off attacks on us, we must learn science and technology and consider acquiring modern knowledge as the part of  ibadah" If the Muslim Societies around the world do not heed the advice of Mahathir, they are then doomed. Long back Philosopher- Poet Iqbal had rightly said ' "Teri barbadiyon ke mashware hain aasmanon mein" (There are clear indications (planning) in the sky of your fall from grace'. (If you do not realize the importance of necessary change)

[Jeehad]

READ MY WHOLE POST... VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU DO SO!

Sorry for the late response. First of all, I would not deny the fact that there is illiteracy in the Muslim world but I won't deny that illiteracy is everywhere.... But you also cannot deny the fact that illiteracy rate in the Christian world is very much evident as well! Look at South America!!! Besides this fact, what you are saying is that I myself am stupid because I believe in such verses which I find absolutely insulting !!! Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming, and you have safely concluded that Muslims are stupid?  First of all, Literacy does not mean one is stupid. The prophet Muhammed was illiterate but by his actions dealings and justly the way he acted made him seem smarter then the average man! you wanna know whats funny? Considering the fact that any blind little child can pick up a bible and spot the errors!! Do you not think that is stupid? I mean have you even read the bible yourself brother? Considering what you have shown me you have either not read your own scripture OR simply are a hypocrite in your own words. Remember, I'm still being patient for a response on the scientific errors in the bible, or let em guess you don't believe in those verses?



I find it hypocritical and judgmental of you to make assumptions on scientific verses in the Quran when you honestly have not even read any of them, so to do you a favor I will post a nice list of these verses then give you a short explanation!


1) in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, "Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light."


Clearly this shows us that Allah sbwt is telling mankind that the sun emmits its own light WHILST THE MOON IS REFLECTING LIGHT.This was not discovered until hundreds of years after the Quranic revelation to Muhammad. So tell me? How can an illiterate man known such a thing???


2)in chapter 21, verse 33, "(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)".

Interesting how the Greeks themselves said the sun was stationary, whilst the Arabs(who at that time had absolutely no scientific contribution to the world until hundreds of years later) knew such things? are you telling me the Meccans were more advanced in science then the Greeks? So again how could an illiterate man known such things?

3)78, verse 6-7  "Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains as pegs". and
chapter 21, verse 31....."We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them"

What is the purpose of mountains?  The Quran CLEARLY tells us that mountains indeed hold the earth together!! Now, this sort of scientifical statement was NOWHERE TO BE SEEN in past civilizations only hundreds if not thousands of years after the quranic revelation to Muhammad! How could an illiterate man known such a thing?

4)In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ....... "God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass" and
in  chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, "He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress........"


This is an unbelievable statement. When 2 seas meet together it is said that the salt concentration in both are completely different and remain unchanged. What I mean by this is, if you were to take 2 liquids and mix them together what would happen? The inevitable answer is they would mix!! But ironically enough when 2 seas are merged together, they DO NOT MIX WITH EACHOTHER BUT instead they remain unchanged in there own channel!! NOW TELL ME! Unless Muhammed flew on his magical carpet to where seas meet together, then had a microscope to detect such matters!! THEN DESTROYED THE MICROSCOPE SO LATER GENERATIONS CANNOT SEE!It is absolutely impossible for him or any person of that time period to have known such things thus concluding, the Quran is a true revelation from God almighty.


5)In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says.............."And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe"

Can you believe, that the deserts of Arabia!!Where there was scarcity, they could have guessed such a fact? which was later concluded by Charles Darwin and many modern scientists which proved that 70% of our bodies are composed of water! And that it is inherent in our existence to have been produced from water? Muhammad must have been a doctor too eh!!!


6) in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, "...... from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men."

Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies. so your telling me Muhammad was SOO observant that he studied bees to? Oh so he was learned in zoology too eh???


7) "Surely those who disbelieve our signs, We shall burn them at a fire. As often as
their skins are wholly burned, we shall give them in exchange other skins so that they may keep tasting the punishment [i.e keep feeling the pain of burning]." (Koran 4:56)

Interesting? How up until 60 years ago mankind thought that pain came from nervse receptors!! We use to think that pain and feeling was a result of our central nerves which run down our backbone and unto every tissue of our organs and body!! Although We have discovered that under the skin there are pain receptors which send signals to these nerves! that is why nowadays burn victims were to be poked with a small needle to see if these receptors were damaged in any way!! Amazing how the Quran knew such things. I guess Muhammad was a doctor after all.


"And the sky We built it with might, and we cause the expansion of it."
(Koran 51:47)

approximately 70 years ago edwin hubble discovered the Universe was red shifted after analyzing it with his telescope. A red shifted universe means that the universe originated from one point and is slowly expanding or growing away from the origin. Amazing, how the Quran could have stated such a thing! Maybe Muhammad had a telescope hidden in his cave then destroyed it so MANKIND CANNOT SEE MWUAHAHAHA.


9)"(God is)The Knower of the unapparent.
Not an atom's weight in the skies or the earth, nor anything smaller than that,
or larger, escapes him, but is in a clear record." (Koran 34:3)

Many centuries before Muhammed was born, there was a well known theory of ATOMISM, advanced by the Greeks, Democritus in particular, who lived in the 4th century BC. Democritus and the people who came after him assumed that the material world is made up of tiny indivisible particles called atoms, the smallest pieces of matter,each having the same mass, the smallest unit mass possible. The Arabs used to deal in the same concept. The word in Arabic, ZARRA, most commonly meant that.


10)Then We placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging. Then fashioned the seed into a leech.. (Koran 23:13-14)

The Koran is known to be the first book to give microscopic details of human embryology, hundreds of years before the discovery of the microscope! The Koran contains information on embryology which was not discovered till about 30 years back and certain details were new even to modern scientists but were immediately confirmed as being accurate.If you take a microscopic picture of a human embryo of days 7-24 and place it next to a picture of a leech, they both look identical. Not only do they look the same but they function in the same way too. Just like a leech derives nourishment from its host's blood, the embryo derives nourishment from the decidua or the pregnant endometrium.









Bro, this is just 6 out of over a thousand scientific verses available in the Holy Quran. To say Muslims are stupid for believing such things is absolutely and totally offending,. Maybe Muslims are not as stupid as you may think??? Maybe it could just be that you are not learned in science??? Possible? Who else knows about creation other then the creator himself? Therefore, I ask you to refute these verses and I will be more then happy to form a rebuttle. That is why the holy Quran was truly a revelation from the almighty Lord of the Universe. Inshallah may allah bless you and open your eyes to these things ameen.

Peace and blessings.

[Goober]

  The post right above mine is very informative; I hope people read it instead of saying "Just another long post I'm not going to read."

[Mustardseed]

Sorry for the late response. First of all, I would not deny the fact that there is illiteracy in the Muslim world but I won't deny that illiteracy is everywhere.... But you also cannot deny the fact that illiteracy rate in the Christian world is very much evident as well! Look at South America!!! Besides this fact, what you are saying is that I myself am stupid because I believe in such verses which I find absolutely insulting !!! Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming, and you have safely concluded that Muslims are stupid?  First of all, Literacy does not mean one is stupid. The prophet Muhammed was illiterate but by his actions dealings and justly the way he acted made him seem smarter then the average man! you wanna know whats funny? Considering the fact that any blind little child can pick up a bible and spot the errors!! Do you not think that is stupid? I mean have you even read the bible yourself brother? Considering what you have shown me you have either not read your own scripture OR simply are a hypocrite in your own words. Remember, I'm still being patient for a response on the scientific errors in the bible, or let em guess you don't believe in those verses?

Ok here we go again.  let me try once more Jeehad. First of all let me assure you that I do not think you are stupid, nor do I think that Muslims are stupid. What I said was that they are illiterate and possibly ignorant. Now granted there are educated Muslims worldwide but the masses of Muslims the overwhelming majority are not. Because of this illiteracy they are easily controlled and manipulated by their leaders. The illiterate, as a rule are!. Since they do not have the faculties or the education or even information available, to sift the various claims they are being served by their clergy, they have to choose who they BELIEVE. Socially it is understandable, that they do not trust the west, and the information emerging from the west in regards to science and what have you, is more often than not seen as propaganda. They have been taught that the west is an enemy of Islam and they believe it. The result is that they are on numerous occasions stirred into a rage, against infidels who they are told, are trying to attack their sacred beliefs. This is the sad consequence of such illiteracy and it is observed all over the world, most recent in the case of the Muhammad drawings. I happen to be a close personal friend of one of the artists that drew these pictures, and he is presently living in hiding, having had several attempts on his life, by such overly zealous believers. Is that acceptable to you?

You seem to imply that this is the same in Christianity but if you look closer it is not the case.

You say  :

Look at the middle east itself, the literacy rate is well above average. The Islamic population in Europe and even north America is overwhelming

well I did and conclude that you either do not know how the world looks or don't care. The literacy rate of the Muslims in the Mideast is NOT well above average, it may be slightly above the average for Muslim countries, but as I showed you below it is vastly below the world literacy rate and that of the Christian world. THIS WAS WHAT WE DISCUSSED?. You also claim that the Islamic population in Europe and North America is overwhelming. Well  I don't know how tell you this but it is not true, where do you draw this fact . It is wrong. The Islamic population in Europe is marginal, around 6% and in North America it is a meager 1.4%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Making statements like this is either a sign that you do not want to know reality or simply do not believe it, if that is the case we cannot even discuss this.

Besides this glaring discrepancy, you seem to make a point of bringing into question the Bible, almost continually. This seem to stem from the fact that you have been taught, that the Koran is Superior to the Bible, but this has up to now not had any part in the discussion except when you have brought it to the table. Let me just state categorically that the very fact that Christians are as a body or group educated, has facilitated the spread of a Beliefystem built on FAITH in Jesus and not faith in the leadership in our countries who claim to be Christian. As a group Christians have accepted that the Bible (OT)contains a vast array of stories and allegories and wishful thinking, not to be taken literally but to be seen as a allegory. Even the NT is suspect in part. We as a body do not believe it is our duty to defeat people who think differently than we do. We are not easily whipped into a frenzy by Fundamentalists who endorse violence. These Fundies most of whom live in the USA are marginal.

This is where we differ. We have chosen to live and model our lives after Jesus as he is described in the New Testament. We believe in non-violence tolerance, and most assuredly in Love. Even loving your fellow man who may be Hindu Buddist or even Muslim. Ours is not a war of the physical dimension but a spiritual war, a war to help those who suffer, and bring peace to those who are in turmoil. To bring equal opportunity and equality to the ones we meet be it in our own countries or elsewhere. Untold thousands of Christian charities are actively engaged in this effort and everywhere you will find them. They do not only help and aid Christians but everyone. As I have told you I myself have worked in this field for 30 years and not once have I favored those of my own faith, and my life is very small, thousands are engaged in such activities worldwide.

Regarding the scientific statements let me first ask you a question. If the Koran is proved wrong in one statement would that suffice you. If it is proven that even one claim in the Koran is incorrect it would indicate that all of it could be. Do we share this opinion?

Let me know

Regards Mustardseed 

[Lighthouse]

I can't be arsed to go through this entire thread... but all conceptual realities are a myth... even our being here on earth and interacting with each other.  We make it all up as we go along.  This reality is as "real" as any sleeping dream and so are any stories within perceptual "reality."  So from one perspective, Jesus is a myth but so are you and I.  On the other hand, nothing is a myth and every thought or idea is real.  It all depends on ones perspective.

[Jeehad]

Let me get back to you tomorrow morning. I have to work on my biology ISU, Sorry for the late response but I assure you the next post will be a pwner:P While your at it please refute the scientific errors in the bible I posted earlier!

Peace

[Goober]

While your at it please refute the scientific errors in the bible I posted earlier!

Yes, please.

[DH]

      Jesus and Muhammad both responded to God in the way in which they were culturally conditioned.  It's hard to top Jesus in his radical ethic of love and non-retaliation against a Jewish Pharisaic legalism that too often put rules over the welfare of people.  But it's also true that Muhammad restored a system of justice and fairness to an Arab culture that was anything but just and fair.

     What I'm sick and tired of are the followers of these two guys who seem to miss the essence of what their masters taught.

     Who cannot be troubled when mobs of Muslims go nuts and kill people because of a cartoon?  But this is not the spirit of other Muslims I've met across the world.  They interpret their leader and his scripture in a way that is tolerant of other belief systems.

     I'm heartbroken because members of my own family in Ireland have blown each other to bits because of their friggin' Christianity -- the Catholics versus the Protestants (Muslim extremists aren't the only terrorists who use bombs).  And in the U.S., my youngest daughter (an adopted Puerto Rican living in a our "white" family), has been subjected to the bigotry of several "Christians" who were taught that she was inferior because of her skin color (she's drop dead beautiful by the way!).  But this is not the spirit of other Christians I've met around the world who love unconditionally.

     Give me a break.  We are never going to convince each other by our words.  That's the down side of these internet posts.  The convincing comes by the way we live our faith in those who point the way to a better world of love and justice for all.  I'd better quit because I feel a bigger rant coming on!  Bless you all for defending what you believe, just keep it civil.  DH

[Novice]

DH:  I couldn't agree more!

[Mustardseed]

Dear Jeehad

Before I get into this please let me assure you that I am not trying to offend you, it just happens that the subject matter in my post may be offensive to you.

This thread is called "Jesus and Christianity revealed as a myth". This was what caught my eye as I read it and I posted here, stating that the claims made, were not revealing anything. Gradually it has turned into you and I debating Islam. So for the record let me explain my point of view. This is actually not a new debate but was one of the first things that were debated here on the pulse, when it first started many years ago. In the Mother of all threads, ha, old timers remember that thread; it was quite the rage in its time. Because of that thread it was decided to create separate categories and especially a section for world religions. So the web page evolved you can say.

In that thread a similar claim was made. That the Bible (and the Koran subsequently) were a mere fictive story, created by the Jews (first and then Muhammad I suppose), some of the brightest and most knowledgeable people were brought in and made moderators in order to debate and substantiate this claim, among them Beth a very learned professor and author, who has since written a book on a similar subject. Her and I differ in opinion but have since become very good friends, and keep up communications once in a while.

On Beths recommendation I researched the subject personally and one could say, in depth for a number of years. I read the latest and as yet unpublished book on the subject by a Professor Lempke, as well as a LOT of articles and books.

I BELIEVE in Creation, and I BELIEVE it happened as the Bible describes, the Flood, the Exodus and the whole caboodle. This to a scientist is horrifying. A man of science cannot accept that someone out there believes in something that he cannot prove true. I am very aware that according to science my BELIEF may be just that a belief, it may have never happened, but it does not matter to me if there are things in the Bible that never happened, my faith is not in the stories but in the spirit behind it all. You see I believe in the Cosmic reality that sacrifice for the sake of others , giving without expecting anything in return and enduring hardships cheerfully  etc etc the very attributes ascribed to Jesus, are actual truths. It works. What you give out in life comes back to you, the karmic principles in play.

I personally find it too much of a coincidence that there are gaps in the fossil records, missing links and what have you, and that science every year seems to get closer to accepting that the Spiritual realm may indeed be a fact, but I cannot prove my faith, through science. As a matter of fact if science was to be the only thing used to validate my beliefs would all be unrealistic, any FAITH would. OBEs would as well, because they are............unprovable. I know that out in net-land there are thousands of Christians who have made it their life project to prove that every word in the Bible is correct, so they can be the chosen people and they twist and turn and they argue and they debate, all for nothing. In Koran land the same is the case. There are certain Muslims that don't care how it happened, they love Allah and love to pray to him, they are socially conditioned to live their faith, but there are others as well. There are Muslims who see the Koran as a opportunity to elevate themselves and their faith to be the ultimate reality and they twist and turn as well. They cut a toe or a heel to make the shoe fit, but their reality is just the same as that of the Christians. We cannot prove a thing, it could all be a fairytale, it is possible. I have tried to explain that to you by making you examine the Koran, by asking you to see the Koran in context with Muslim society, and the fundamentalists for what they are.

The notion, that by proving that the Bible is inferior to the Koran, you can lift the Koran into the category of provable by science is to most scientists ludicrous. It would be similar to saying that by making a more in debt sequel to a movie you prove it as reality. Our two books stand and fall together. I noticed that in your first posts you were quite benevolent to me and stated some generous affirmations regarding the Bible, but I do not need that.

As someone concluded a long time ago in that thread, "you cannot prove a negative this made sense to me. If God created the world in 7 days, and is as much in control as I believe he is we are mere figures in a elaborate video game, free will is our control console but we are not endowed with the mental capacity or facility to understand God and how it is all working. All we get is a glimpse of it now and then. We don't need to prove anything but just follow the rules of the game, duck when its best to duck and jump when its best to jump. In this scenario, it is my belief that Muslims are down a blind alley, they jump at all the wrong times as well and often don't duck at all. They don't want to face the reality of the "game" but insist on being above the rules of life.

As a result they have as a people as a religion become marginalized in the world today. Their insistence on making their own rules and expecting everyone to follow them is going to be their demise. Let me level with you Jeehad, the world will never become Muslim, it just ain't gonna happen, the people of the world will never let themselves become ruled by Sharia law. In the words of a famous movie star, "you live in a dream world Neo". No arguing debating and cajoling will change the fact that Islam is a violent religion one who demeans its prospective convert, and promotes conversion by the means of Violence. Its followers, though many of them sweet individuals, are predominantly illiterate as well as socially isolated and because of this fact, the leaders of the faith has succeeded in actually making them believe a variety of untruths. It seems that they will believe anything, they are told. Conspiracies flourish in the Mideast, and most folks there are ignorant regarding major issues that every schoolchild knows in the west.

So this is my statement to you on this day. I believe in the Bible. Creation I cannot prove it but believe it, I believe in the Exodus and on an on. I most of all believe in Jesus and the principles of love that he taught. Even if he is a fairytale as well, I still believe in what the book teaches, love is stronger than hate, non violence will always conquer and what you dish out in life is bound to come back to you.

Regards Mustardseed

[Ryuji]

set patterns incapable of adaptability only offer a better cage. thruth is outside of all patterns.

...or is it ?

anyways i get your drift MS but you need to learn respect onto others as well. its fine that you blabber on and on how loving bible/jesus/god/christians is but them in same breath trample islam.

i don't conform to any religion nor to any religious viewpoint of what a god or man should be - religion to me is a restriction of the human being;

a safety net, safety blanket, 'let god do everything for me', 'i don't take responsibility for myself', 'lets dump our problems on a deity'. 'lets not ask questions' or blindly follow some book - how can a GOD be scribed down into a single book ?

all religions was made by man for man - which really can't be proven or unproven, but hec who really cares ?


nevertheless as you stated in the very beginning of this topic which you two seemed to forget very quickly:

Beware that you do not tear down something you do not understand and hurt people who have done you no harm my friend.

You yourself consider, what you "know" to be "the truth" but it is infact only your opinion and research.

and so on...

besides. imho you are here to walk your path by your own and not by someone, something or a book.

[Mustardseed]

Well you have a right to believe whatever you do as well. I did not think I was blabbering, but maybe I was . As for trampling on Islam. I do not subscribe to your beliefs, and if they allow you to stand by and in your supposed, neutrality and lukewarm political correctness, extending respect to a religion who foster and endorse violence hatred and intolerance.........well thats your choice. Mine does not give me this option, though I respect people who just happen to be brought up in a Muslim society, I do not respect their religion, and I never will. I believe in love yes but I also believe in telling the truth about the subject, and please dont give me this "stuf" about "everything is truth and it is the truth to them and bla bla". Though I am non violent I will speak my mind and give my opinion. A religion who endorses and encourages violence has no rights, it should be adresses for what it is, and not respected. Muslims spurred on by passages in the Koran, are threatening world peace. The rulers of Islam, the Immams are not "here for the beer", they are waging not merely war, for social justice but HOLY war, to make the world Islamic. Americans are bombing thousands of innocent people, and while their religion obviously does not endorse it, they too claim they are fighting for God. This is a sick society and Islam is in my opinion a sick religion. I will not only march in demonstrations against a war that I consider unjust, but also talk loud in public debates about Islams and what I consider its inhuman hateful doctrine. I will have my say in this forum, and if you consider this hard to take thats your problem. If you cant handle a frank discussion about these things, but instead succumb to this nauseating rhetoric of showing respect, go ahead and show your support, ignorance and political correctness is what they thrive on. Did you even read the thread? Jeehad considers it "mercy" to behead an enemy of islam instead of hanging him  ..........HELLO PEOPLE!!!!!!!

I will leave you with a interesting quote from a Mr. Niemoller who lived in occupied Holland at the time of Nazi occupation, he said:

First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

It is my opinion that the majority of people in the wold is simply s*** scared of the Muslims, look at the Cartoons killings and the rampage that occured. It sickens me

[Goober]

-deleted, I shouldn't have made such a comment.-


Edit again: I urge everyone to actually read this thread, so they will know the false claims Mustardseed is making.

[Jeehad]

Well you have a right to believe whatever you do as well. I did not think I was blabbering, but maybe I was . As for trampling on Islam. I do not subscribe to your beliefs, and if they allow you to stand by and in your supposed, neutrality and lukewarm political correctness, extending respect to a religion who foster and endorse violence hatred and intolerance.........well thats your choice. Mine does not give me this option, though I respect people who just happen to be brought up in a Muslim society, I do not respect their religion, and I never will. I believe in love yes but I also believe in telling the truth about the subject, and please dont give me this "stuf" about "everything is truth and it is the truth to them and bla bla". Though I am non violent I will speak my mind and give my opinion. A religion who endorses and encourages violence has no rights, it should be adresses for what it is, and not respected. Muslims spurred on by passages in the Koran, are threatening world peace. The rulers of Islam, the Immams are not "here for the beer", they are waging not merely war, for social justice but HOLY war, to make the world Islamic. Americans are bombing thousands of innocent people, and while their religion obviously does not endorse it, they too claim they are fighting for God. This is a sick society and Islam is in my opinion a sick religion. I will not only march in demonstrations against a war that I consider unjust, but also talk loud in public debates about Islams and what I consider its inhuman hateful doctrine. I will have my say in this forum, and if you consider this hard to take thats your problem. If you cant handle a frank discussion about these things, but instead succumb to this nauseating rhetoric of showing respect, go ahead and show your support, ignorance and political correctness is what they thrive on. Did you even read the thread? Jeehad considers it "mercy" to behead an enemy of islam instead of hanging him  ..........HELLO PEOPLE!!!!!!!

I will leave you with a interesting quote from a Mr. Niemoller who lived in occupied Holland at the time of Nazi occupation, he said:

First they came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me.

Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

It is my opinion that the majority of people in the wold is simply s*** scared of the Muslims, look at the Cartoons killings and the rampage that occured. It sickens me

You see here is where you just don't get it. I understand that this thread is about Jesus pbuh but the fact of the matter is you started knitpicking a debate with me. Your claiming things which are completely and absolutely demonising and false about my own religion.  Your claims of Islam as a religion of "terror" which threatens world peace is nothing but media propaganda being propagated to express a new age of occupation on Muslim lands. You still fail to realize that the fighting in the Middle East is due to the corruption caused by the western government for the past 5 decades instead of religious motivation to "kill infidels." You have the wrong Idea, and by learning history you will realize that through historical references we can see the same things have occurred. During the Christian era in pagan Rome, the romans persecuted and layed similar blames of "terrorism" and brutality charges on Christians to give an excuse to persecute them! Hitler even burned the Reich to give an international reason to go to war with communist Russia. Bush is a proud Christian! But I never in my right mind would have believed he represented the Good of Christianity. Bush orders the bombing of Iraqi Children? Gives 69% of foreign Aid to Israel, a nation which has suppressed Palestinian sunder illegal occupation and brutal conditions not even faced by the majority of the poorest regions on earth! Despite all this I still believe in the Message Jesus propagated as being the true divine call to God and never attached stigmas to Christians. Instead of reading bovine excrement in skeptics annotated I suggest you read the Holy Quran and believe me your claims will be resolved.The Holy Quran tells you a story about certain peoples, and for you to extract certain bits and portray it as the central message is totally false. Never in the Quran does God command mankind to simply kill non believers! God commands justice and the doing of good kin and if you can't see that then i'm sorry to say but you are a very judgmental person. This whole conversation has just been me trying to defending claims which you make and yet you still agree with those claims EVEN THOUGH you cannot form a  rebuttal against the defenses I have made. The reason why I posted the Christian errors in a scientific perspective of the bible is I wanted to show you the errors in Christianity! you tried disproving the Islamic claims as everything was indeed created in pairs, but you saw that it takes a man to deeply learn the nature of subatomic particles to truly understand this claim. The whole basis of religion is an explanation for creation, science explains How God created and it does not deny any facts of a supreme creator at all but in fact it actually agrees upon this statement. The modern revolution of science has shown claims that indeed life has been created perfectly and is a result of a supreme creator.  MustardSeed you want to talk [politics we can talk politics! Look at the first 2 world wars were the propagated by Muslim extremists??? NO BUT IN FACT CHRISTIANS HUNGER FOR POWER MONEY AND GREED!  It is not a religious motivation to kill man but a essence in mankind.We are power hungry as a human species and whether your black blue read or white this is constant struggle you will face! The question I wanna leave you all with tonight is how do you not expect people to fight? After you've bombed there homes? There family killed? Forces into refugee camps? Displaced millions of civilians? Honestly how do you not expect people to respond? Imagine If I supressed the American people for 54 years! It's the fact that the Us has been supporting ILLIGAL OCCUPATION SHUNNED BY UN RESOLUTION 54/59 AS ILLIGAL!! But why is the US supporting such horrid behabviours of suppressng and occupying a population which reaches the densest WORLDWIDE?? It must have its religious routes in chrisitanity. Human nature has it that there will be resistance formed and it is not my ideal to blame it on there religions! Before you lay judgments you must understand the conditions in occupied regions!In war striken regions! We as muslims feel a tremendous amount of anxiety for our people being slaughtered by your own government and what do youe xpect of us? IF YOU WANT TERRORISM TO STOP THEN SIMPLY STOP KILLING US. It's funny how if terrorism was truly a result of ISlam then wat happened 20 years ago? When people have never even heard of such a term? Why has this huge outbreak been occuring in the past 10 years? Please MustardSeed your comments are completely insulting and ignorant! Break out of this nutshell and see the world for what it reall is I beg of you all to watch this video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkD3nchD0OM



READ IT YOURSELF INSTEAD OF ASKING THE GOVERNMENT WHY!

[Mustardseed]

Yea I read your posts Goober, but I did not bother to answer them. I know your opinion and understand where you come from. It is obvious to me that while you may think I am an idiot and not a Christian in my eyes you are just a kid. A young boy with virtually no life experience, full of .......well whatever. You have obviously taken it on yourself to lecture me, just go ahead boy, you are of no consequence. Play another video game get stoned or study your books, get up and go to school when your mom calls you. Relax.....in the safe western society where you live you can afford to live in your dreamworld. In the real world you will find that as you grow up your opinions will change. Harass me or flame me whatever, as I said you are of no consequence. Your opinion and your carefully devised rebuttals are just a few words, just a burp from a baby, easily dealt with son.

Regards Mustardseed

[Jeehad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr6Sr8Ch2zs&NR

[Goober]

Yea I read your posts Goober, but I did not bother to answer them. I know your opinion and understand where you come from. It is obvious to me that while you may think I am an idiot and not a Christian in my eyes you are just a kid. A young boy with virtually no life experience, full of .......well whatever. You have obviously taken it on yourself to lecture me, just go ahead boy, you are of no consequence. Play another video game get stoned or study your books, get up and go to school when your mom calls you. Relax.....in the safe western society where you live you can afford to live in your dreamworld. In the real world you will find that as you grow up your opinions will change. Harass me or flame me whatever, as I said you are of no consequence. Your opinion and your carefully devised rebuttals are just a few words, just a burp from a baby, easily dealt with son.

Regards Mustardseed

  You make ( incorrect ) assumptions about my life because you can not refute the evidence I've provided to you. This is obvious. You assume I live in a great place, with a great, luxurious house. You are wrong. I live in poverty-stricken Mississippi, in the ghetto, where I am shot at for simply riding my bike into a certain area. You do not know my life. I payed for the computer I am typing on by myself, I help pay for the internet monthly, and I do all of the chores in the house, that includes my other two brothers chores, in the dead of night simply because my parents work all day, and I take great joy from seeing the smiles on their faces when waking up to a clean house. This is not my dreamworld, but I am grateful for it anyway. Don't claim you know me, ever again.

  Just for the heck of it, I'll post some Bible verses you just ignored with that post of yours.

"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. " Romans 12:14

"Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."  Ephesians 4:29

"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13

"Do not be deceived with empty words, brethren, because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." - Ephesians 5 something. I can't remember.

[mon9999]

Man I don't know why religious people or low level beings are so insistent to share their stupidity and foolishness about spirituality!!!! the so called religious people have been brainwashed because of their low level of consciousness.. the only truth is written only in the bible.. huh!!

[Jeehad]

Man I don't know why religious people or low level beings are so insistent to share their stupidity and foolishness about spirituality!!!! the so called religious people have been brainwashed because of their low level of consciousness.. the only truth is written only in the bible.. huh!!

Please prove any of your statements...

[Principle]

No religion holds absolute truth.

Don't follow mainstream society, establish your own beliefs.

[Jeehad]

No religion holds absolute truth.

Don't follow mainstream society, establish your own beliefs.

Well, its really all relative to the person! A Christian will believe there religion holds the truth whilst a Jew will think otherwise and etc etc. I don't think, thinking your own religion holds the truth is wrong but being close minded on the topic and not willing toe explore other beliefs is totally and absolutely unacceptable. I think when a person makes a enclosed statement such as "MY religion is perfect" Surely that person must have analyzed various faiths and is willing to learn from them. We all have something to learn in this world but no matter what beliefs have been slurred at me I have remained with a dominate opinion that seeking submission through the Will of ONE God(Islam) is the perfect path.  I am willing to discuss this statement as I have discussed with Mustardseed if anyone is willing. But you also must understand the nature of "faith." I believe faith alone is blind and logic alone is ignorance. In order for a man to be able follow a religious or spiritual ideology he must put 50% faith and 50% logic into such an equation. See, the duty of a religious person is not to live in a closed minded bubble because if he/she is truly faithful in there beliefs then they are willing to learn and understand a variety of different ideologies. Although, your presumption about religion is that keeping a firm stance on your beliefs is wrong, but you shuld think otherwise.