Proof Of God's Existence

[beavis]

Holy crap, that is too long. A few might read it, but a summary would be useful to the rest of us.

[Logic]

Great post, I read the majority of it =)

[Mustardseed]

You will be surprised my friend..........at the short attention span of most folks here, myself included. After 22 line I (we?) said ....OK whatever[]
Regards Mustardseed

[James S]

I resent that comment Mustardseed! I'll have you know I have a very long atten.....oh bugger, I've broken another fingerna......Ahhh so that's what happens when you press that button....
[]

I did like the "surgical imprecision" bit.
I remember reading in an OMNI magazine some years ago when fractals became a big thing, there was a highlighted statement that said something about more powerful computing abilities bringing science closer to finding God, that with the discovery of fractals in nature it was pointing more to the fact that this universe was designed. Now even Stephen Hawking has suggested that the most workeable Big Bang theory must have involved some overseeing intelligence.

Interesting though is the fact that there are a large number of people out there such as my wife, who would call themselves an atheist simply because they do not believe in any of the religions or dogmas. She does however believe that there is some kind of sentient entity running the whole show, but is not prepared to accept the anthropomorphism of this entity such as is portrayed by the major religions.

Regards,
James.

[Kerrblur]

Hey I'm sorry for the long statement, but I am believing in god and slowly reading the bible and such.

until recently, i've been going to church and learning this stuff.  And I'm only 20 years of age.  But at the same time, I've been reaidng people's posts about how they do not know if there is a god, and all about this new age stuff.  That is fine if you believe the new age, but my aproach is, 'i believe in god.'  but at the same time I've been learning the spiritual development things like AP, TK, telepathy, so forth.  Well I just wanted to make a summary that will maybe put question in peoples minds.  like the questions I have.

 Now since I've been going to church, I've been wanting to ask but cannot because of the fact that people will look down on me, and not understand, therefore say its the work of cults and devil-work.  I wanted to know if anyone can sum up some kind of similarity between all this spiritual stuff with the bible.  Now we were not put on this earth with the ability to walk, talk, and breath and die.  Were here to walk, talk, live, 'learn the truths of god' and 'spiritually develop'.  If anyone knows much about the bible, and maybe something I can bring up next time I goto church, a proverb and 'something' bring up question to the things i believe rather than someone saying to me, "Thats the work of cults and new age, the Devil with bring deceiving things to your mind" blah blah blah.

 Cause really I believe, over the ages, the christian religion has corrupted scriptures and slowly brought people into thinking this kind of stuff is the work of the devil.  JUST like how most people today perceive 'easter',  people think of easter as eggs and bunnies, but it blinds the real truth behind easter itself, jesus and such....

sorry, soo long for the short-attention people. I just have serious questions and I would like people to post there oppinions

[exothen]

kerrblur,

Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly. I am not a believer of all this "stuff" that is talked about in here, but at the same time, as a Christian, I am not ignorant of the fact that there is a spiritual world "out there." I would even say it is more of a reality than the physical world we live in.

I do not believe for one minute that the church has corrupted the scriptures over the centuries, and in fact, the evidence goes very much against that. I do not fault you for holding to that view, it is somewhat common; it's just that it is erroneous and without basis.

You said you believe in God. That's good, but everything depends on who your God is.

[Mustardseed]

quote:[
Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly. .....

and who determines what?....... new age is.....?

quote:
I do not believe for one minute that the church has corrupted the scriptures over the centuries, and in fact, the evidence goes very much against that. I do not fault you for holding to that view, it is somewhat common; it's just that it is erroneous and without basis.

As you, I believe it is erroneous but it is not without basis.
I think that would be very biased and is exactly the kind of statement that gets people up in arms.

Regards Mustardseed

[Coffee]

Why do you have to prove God exists?  Why doesn't God do it?  is he too busy to profve he exists?

[kakkarot]

quote:Originally posted by exothen

Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly.

quite honestly the bible does NOT condemn mysticism or anything like it. it does not exalt it, but it does not condemn it either. (and it ESPECIALLY couldn't POSSIBLY condemn specifically new age stuff (as opposed to general occultism) since new age stuff has only been around since, at the earliest, the late 1800's whereas the bible was written approx 2000 years prior).

~kakkarot

[Logic]

quote:Why do you have to prove God exists? Why doesn't God do it? is he too busy to profve he exists?

Prove to me you exist. Why dont you just do it? Are you too busy to prove you exist? Then when your done with that, concince 8 billion other people you exist. Have fun! []

[exothen]

The Bible condemns channeling, mediums, witchcraft, and seeking spiritual guidance other than seeking God. No, it doesn't address some of the specifics of New Age beliefs and practices, but the condemnation is against spiritual practices apart from the working of God in general. If it isn't of God, it stands condemned.

[Coffee]

If I created 8 billion people, I might be courteous enough to explain to them what happened, instead of leaving them guessing and arguing about it for billions of years.  That is, if I was a good god.  If I was an evil god, I would find a lot of humor in all of this scrambling around.

Before I prove to you I exist, I'll teach you how to spell convince.  

Maybe I just did both?

[beavis]

James S I remember reading in an OMNI magazine some years ago when fractals became a big thing, there was a highlighted statement that said something about more powerful computing abilities bringing science closer to finding God, that with the discovery of fractals in nature it was pointing more to the fact that this universe was designed.

Fractals are just math. They dont imply god exists any more than the laws of physics, which are math.

I'm not sure, but I think this formula I just made is a fractal:

sin(x*x) / x

If you find something that formula describes, does that mean I created it?

[Mustardseed]

Referance Please

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Referance Please

The Speller demon strikes again!!!

the word is REFERENCE.

Xander.

[Kerrblur]

                                                           
The Bible condemns channeling, mediums, witchcraft, and seeking spiritual guidance other than seeking God. No, it doesn't address some of the specifics of New Age beliefs and practices, but the condemnation is against spiritual practices apart from the working of God in general. If it isn't of God, it stands condemned.


okay first of all, the bible may condemn aLL this but there is also a reason as to why every human being has it, how they use it, and at the same time, going to church to send your life to jesus christ.  now whats this hu-yay with jesus dieing for our sins? now if channeling and all that junk is condemned, well, you know wut i meen?  another thing, isnt there some truth behind you must know god exists by believing? having faith? not by seeing?

it is obvious all this stuff with spiritual development was over the centuries left out or not even put in by the people who over the 'centuries' written the book.  or if and i know it is somewhere still, in the bible, some kind of scripture reletive to any kind of spiritualism, please answer me  

because so far, I PM'ed mustardSeed my concern, so maybe he can sum it up for me

Noone has answered my question or my concern, all i herd was "what god you talking bout'? so forth, I'm not mad or trying to upset anyone, but I'm really starting to become a christian here.  but honoestly, if you talk to any other person about this, they will think your skitso(SP?). well I just want some kind of docutment to bring into church so I can tell them my concern, so without arguing about whats with what or this belife system is this.  Just think about this: "God is there", you know by projecting, its obvious, your arrogant to think otherwise, no offense to anyone.  some kind of proof, documentation, scriptures anything to help me when i goto church next. thank you

[Candieapple]

I helped a friend of mine, author of "My First Encounter With An Angel" research over 160 bibles (see topic ID=8018) and this is what we found:

exothen - your right the Bible does condemn psychic phenomena - except hidden in Corinthians we have it applauding "gifts of the spirit":

quote:1 Cor. 12:01   46.1201   BRAV   1951   Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethen, I would not have you ignorant.
1 Cor. 12:04-11   46.120411   BRAV   1951   Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of services, but the same Lord. And there are varieties of workings, but it is the same God which works all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every one for the benefit of all. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. But all these works that one and the selfsame Spirit, distributing to each one particularly as he will. For just as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many are one body: so also is Christ.
1 Cor. 14:01   46.1401   BRAV   1951   Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy.
1 Cor. 14:04   46.1404   BRAV   1951   He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the congregation.
1 Cor. 14:05   46.1405   BRAV   1951   I would that you all spoke with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the congregation may receive edifying.
1 Cor. 14:26   46.1426   BRAV   1951   How is it then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongues, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edifying.
1 Cor. 14:27   46.1427   BRAV   1951   If any one speak in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and in succession; and let one interpret.
1 Cor. 14:28   46.1428   BRAV   1951   But if there be no interpreter, let him be silent in the congregation; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1 Cor. 14:29   46.1429   BRAV   1951   Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the others judge.
1 Cor. 14:30   46.1430   BRAV   1951   If any thing be revealed to another sitting by, let the first be silent.
1 Cor. 14:31   46.1431   BRAV   1951   For you may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1 Cor. 14:32   46.1432   BRAV   1951   And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1 Cor. 14:33   46.1433   BRAV   1951   For God is not of confusion, but of peace, as in all congregations of the saints.

[]

Also the proof of God's existence is the glueon that holds you together![]

[exothen]

quote:your right the Bible does condemn psychic phenomena - except hidden in Corinthians we have it applauding "gifts of the spirit":

The gifts of the Spirit (the third person of the Trinity; God) are not at all related to psychic phenomena. Paul makes it clear that these gifts are given by God for the express purpose of the building up of the Church. The only persons who had these gifts were those who were Christians. There is absolutely nothing "New Age" about these gifts. And they aren't "hidden" in Corinthians, they are one of the main purposes Paul wrote to the church at Corinth.

Kerrblur,

I am not too sure I understand your post.

quote:the bible may condemn aLL this but there is also a reason as to why every human being has it, how they use it, and at the same time, going to church to send your life to jesus christ.

Well, I disagree that every human being has "it" and am highly doubtful if "it" exists at all, at least in the way it is presented in these forums. I know of no person in church who believes in this stuff precisely because the Bible strongly condemns it.

quote:now whats this hu-yay with jesus dieing for our sins? now if channeling and all that junk is condemned, well, you know wut i meen? another thing, isnt there some truth behind you must know god exists by believing? having faith? not by seeing?

Not too sure what you are trying to say here.

quote:it is obvious all this stuff with spiritual development was over the centuries left out or not even put in by the people who over the 'centuries' written the book. or if and i know it is somewhere still, in the bible, some kind of scripture reletive to any kind of spiritualism, please answer me

You will not find support for this New Age stuff in the Bible, at all. The Bible considers this type of spiritualism as pagan and completely devoid of anything good or of God.

[Kerrblur]

Okay, I didnt explain myself here.

Why does telepathy, OBE, TK, predicting the furture, all this stuff 'new age'? thats wut I'm trying to say! these abilities have been aorund for thousands among thousands of years, since recorded man have been around! and how old is 'new age'? do you understand my saying? if we humans have these abilities, then why are we condemned to use it? why has GOD himself put us to have it?  maybe to only have select people to 'discover' his abilites that he put on us? these abilities you must know, except by the few, only discover it through practice and time.....  so maybe God gives every person(like i say except with the rare few that are born with it) that certain choice, to discover the (as you say) 'new age' abilities, the 'new age' in my oppionion i know has been out for along along time, but it didnt 'really' boom til the 1960's.  but in a sense can be believed to the fullest extent but you shouldn't group spiritual abilities solely as 'new age' when they've been around since man learned how to make a wheel.  'new age' is a great religion to know but I'm solely on discovering the connection between spiritual development and the christian religion, the bible and making christians into believers, believe this or not, I am a semi-regular pendulum user, and my guides, angels, or god for that matter i dunno have kind of sent me messages saying I need to Teach the wiser to be wiser. exactly what they said in a crazy long 'hang-man' game with the pendulum. i need clarifications and help to bring with me. thank you.

Candieapple has help me sooo much!! and if only she can help me on something to say on my behalf, because if I read some of thoughs scriptures, I have to defend myself in some way!  and if there is any  other material to use! I'd love it....
The bible does say some things about condemning them but, like I said over the centuries, I believe they added 'some' things to hide some certain truths.  I dont wanna upset anyone in anyway but I'm just trying to find out some things and learn like all of you []

[Mustardseed]

Dear Exothen
First let me apologise for the spelling mistake. I am not a native english speller, as I have explained many times before and most do not hold me ad ridgid as others to this standard.

I compleately understand your concern. We have had a very long conversation about this at the famous Satan decieves you thread. There seems to be however a very blurred line between what is condemned and what is not what is new age and what is in effect just ancient arts of fx healing. Let me explain.

First of all I would agree that in the old testament it is clear that God did forbid the Jews of old to see mediums and witchcraft was forbidden. (i.e. the witch of Endor) this however was a specific message in the old testament and if we should really put things "on end" the old testament is null and void. I assume that you are familiar with those verses!!! There are now for a Christian only 2 commandments "Love God and your neighbour for on these two hang the law and the prophets". All things are now lawful......but not all things profit!!. Personally I remain sceptic about witcraft etc but find it interesting that the Prophet compares witchcraft with stubbornness and other rebellious acts.

"to obey is better than sacrefice and to listen than the fat of rams, for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as idolatry and iniquity"

It seems to me that in those days there was a possibility that Gods message could be confused with the Devils, and God had to have very strict guidelines. He also at that time recommended that a child or teenager who was disrespectfull against his /her parents or a woman taken in adultery was taken without the gates and stoned to death! Something I do not expect you to adhere to!!

This may be an indication that they at that time had no real dicernment. Jesus was not yet crucified and the HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN. !!!

In our days this is different. We do have both and the ability to discer.

In my opinion what one does with ones "spiritual manefestation' may be a determining factor. I do myself have OBEs and had them since I was 4 yrs old. I does not seem evil to me , thoughit is at times scary. There are a mass of gifts that I would say seems ok though not to my liking. Zone therapy, acupunkture, aromatherapi, iris reasing, and even astrology. I am not advocating living by an astrologer but we as christians must admit that it seems evident that different people have been born under different signs thus been given different traits.

On the negative we have fx channeling. I have said often that channeling is a very dangerous practice along with penduling etc.

I think we must discern and that a lot of misunderstandings arise from the dogmatic viewpoint that it is all bad if it is not in church. The churches themselves are guilty of many sins spiritual problems are rampant and they are not in a position to remove any splinters from their brothers eye. Let us discuss these things in a reasonable matter and it could be an interesting conversation.

This is why I said "who determines what new age is"

Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

Dear Exothen
I have posted for a long time here on the board and is known to most as a Christian. I know my Bible. If you only want to poke fun at my spelling mistakes but do not want to answer my posts in a respectful manner, most folks will just blow you off as yet another selfrighteous holier than thou church person. If that is your intent and if you feel they (and you) would get closer to God that way....ok. If however you want to reasonably discuss the issues at hand, please stop your sarcasm and ....talk to me. You keep quoting the Bible saying.......the Bible says....Please give me the references you refer to or stop saying the Bible says!!!. In many things I might agree with you , but I would need to know your scriptual backup.

Thankyou
Regards Mustardseed

[Kerrblur]

Mustardseed,

    Hey, I understand the comments thats said, even though I do not know the words that were said about you, but hopefully you are understanding my concern right now with the connection between spiritual gifts(or in arrogant terms 'new age' ways).  Without waiting for his reply, maybe you can discuss with me right now like what 'Candieapple' was starting to discuss!  This is what I'm searching for and I'm one step closer! I am not very well educated in the bible, but like I said, I am trying my hardest to be a christian but at the same time figuring out the messages/visions/thoughs, whatever you want to call it I have had to find the connection between the two.  

    Thank You,

Ryan K

[bomohwkl]

"why they don't believe in God, say that it is because they cannot see Him – yet if the question is put to them whether they believe in love, will say yes, and mean it. We believe in love yet how many of us have seen it?"

It is simply because people can experience the sensation of love, the sensation of kindness or other feel good emotions.

[bomohwkl]

"The Divine Being who not only created all these qualities but whose very substance, whose whole make up is of goodness and mercy, truth and love."

It is more logical to say such divine beings possess admirable qualities. Such qualities cannot be created.

[bomohwkl]

TOO LONG!!


"Complexity or large numbers do not necessarily imply intelligent design."

Have you ever come across your mind that something is complex but YET simple and yet in work in HARMONY with greater part of the system?

Is it an intelligent design?


"Both can arise from the application of simple rules."

The Fractal pattern produced by simple application of formula is complex. But how much intelligence is required to understand and even to derive such equation?

"God would have had to be designed or could never have arisen."

Can you design intelligence? One of the most distinct characteristic of God is intelligence. How does intelligence spring forth?