Proof Of God's Existence

[exothen]

Mustardseed,

quote:If you only want to poke fun at my spelling mistakes but do not want to answer my posts in a respectful manner,

You must have me confused with xander. I haven't even posted anything to you, nevermind made fun of your spelling.

quote:the Bible says....Please give me the references you refer to or stop saying the Bible says!!!. In many things I might agree with you , but I would need to know your scriptual backup.

And likewise for you. If you want to believe that New Age beliefs are compatible with Christianity, then back that up with scripture. I will reply in length when I get a bit more time.

[bomohwkl]

The evidence of God is inside you and it is outside you.
The problem is people has no idea what is God. They don't know where to look at. They look and search the whole universe, what they can see is material composed of atoms. But they don't understand how much intelligence is required just to make a universe, a living earth,you, me...............

[bomohwkl]

or I should say how much intelligence is required just to comprehend the universe, living earth, you and me.............

[Mustardseed]

Mixed you up with Xander. I shall be glad to include ref. however the conversation started between us when you made the above statement. As you were the one making that first initial statement you should also back it up. As a Christian you cannot say "the Bible says...." and then when someone says  "where does it say that", require ME to include ref.

I personally believe that you would have to differentiate or at least define Nwe Age before you condemn it. NA has become a very big movement and include various beliefs and practices. So define which you call new age and be so kind to quote me what the Bible says about these practices. This is your responsibility. I am not making statements saying NA is Christian and blessed practices. If I had made such claims you could have asket for MY ref. to back it up.[]

I hope I am making myself clear.

Regards Mustardseed

[xander]

Actually Mustard I do recall posting to you in this thread where I took a jab at your spelling. It's dated Dec 5th where I make ReferEnce to a speller demon.


Xander

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Mixed you up with Xander. I shall be glad to include ref. however the conversation started between us when you made the above statement. As you were the one making that first initial statement you should also back it up. As a Christian you cannot say "the Bible says...." and then when someone says  "where does it say that", require ME to include ref.

I personally believe that you would have to differentiate or at least define Nwe Age before you condemn it. NA has become a very big movement and include various beliefs and practices. So define which you call new age and be so kind to quote me what the Bible says about these practices. This is your responsibility. I am not making statements saying NA is Christian and blessed practices. If I had made such claims you could have asket for MY ref. to back it up.[]

I hope I am making myself clear.

Regards Mustardseed

[Mustardseed]

Ok lets discuss this the. What is the workings of God and what is not. What has the Church to do with it anyway. The Church did not exist in the form it has now when this was written. The old testament condemns listening to and seeking advise of spirits other than Gods spirit yet in Revelation when John falls down to worship the angel he said to him "worship not me for I am of your breatheren the prophets", It seems that when people cross over they are used in some way to aid the ones here. At least this seems supportable by the scripture. Certain beliefs like astrology is clearly in the Bible. The lights in the "firmament" was for times and seasons. "The stars in their courses fought against sesirea" .

It seems obvious that the physical and spiritual creation was created after a certain template, and with certain building blocks. Lets just say a art as dousing. (Finding water with a stick) Some very fearful folks believe it is the work of demons, like they did back in the middle ages. It could just be a simple natural force magnetism or physical law not yet found by science!!! Christians are often too quick to lob everything they do not understand into the pot of "demons at work". I believe that in this they are very wrong.
It seems evident Moses dowsed himself. I had a very good friend a farmer, in the south parts of Devon. He was a very sweet and kind man and used to go help his neighbours find springs and stuf. He never knew he was dowsing, he was finding water, he loved God and was a very sweet spirit. Was he communicating with demons. I think not. Most folks who claim demons are at work heve never had experience with spiritual entities , if they had they would think different. These spirits leave their signature believe me.

Other practices are in my opinion, much worse. There are some here who are developing severe problems and have horrible experiences. Why? Is it becourse they still are under influence of us in the "belief terretories" or are they meddeling in matters way out of their sphere. I believe it is.

You can call me what you want Gandalf and Xander and False prophet and all you others, lets compare notes again in 6 months time. Some of you are inviting trouble by not being carefull enough and realising what you are involved in.

All that said and done I have to explain that I have frequent OBE experiences and had them since I was 4 yrs old. I have hovever found it best to avoid the RTZ, and go straight to the Astral planes as much as possible. Often I do not go with the vibrations. I go in my time and as I feel led by God and my faith.

I hope I make myself clear and apologise for spelling mistakes. I am not a good speller in English but a busy man and have no time to spend hours typing things like this and minding grammar too much.

Regards Mustardseed

[xander]

]Originally posted by Mustardseed[/i]

 What is the workings of God and what is not.

>Are you so presumptuous as to claim you know the mind and workings of God??? ROFLMAO!!!

Other practices are in my opinion, much worse.

>That's right, in YOUR opinion.

becourse they still are under influence of us in the "belief terretories" or are they meddeling in matters way out of their sphere. I believe it is.

>Good F***ing gawd! learn to SPELL!!! AAAANNNND who are you to judge what I can and cant handle.

You can call me what you want Gandalf and Xander and False prophet and all you others, lets compare notes again in 6 months time. Some of you are inviting trouble by not being carefull enough and realising what you are involved in.

>I take your challenge! I Know what I am involved in! Hence my passion and power! I am on my way to becoming a master of light/darkness! I shall be I shall be.

>Xander

[Kerrblur]

Mustardseed is a genious(SP?).  thank you.  I believe there is no such reason to even doubt him and/or try to explain how 'god' doesnt exist with my starting topic on this post.

 The whole reason for this post was to understand the connection between spiritual gifts and such with the bible and christianity.  his spelling ALSO has nothing to do with it, no offense but he who says he does with his apologies are arrogant and just talking out air.

 But at the same time, please, be open in what you believe about 'new age' and such cause I am learning a great deal here, I am to be making a big review about this when i goto church. thank you

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Kerrblur

Mustardseed is a genious(SP?).  thank you.  I believe there is no such reason to even doubt him

I have no proof that he is anything close to a genius (correct spelling). Mustard is human and thus imperfect, thus I shall doubt him. If you wish to have him for a guru, so be it. But I shall knock anyone out of the ivory tower they claim to occupy.

Xander

[kakkarot]

ya know xander, you really don't have to be so anal about the spelling [|)].

and you also don't need to be on your quest to "knock anyone out of the ivory tower they claim to occupy". people (like you and i, as well as mustardseed, exothen, and everyone else here) are all imperfect and make mistakes. but does that mean that we can't do ANYthing right? of course not.

however, if someone claims (or doesn't claim but shows themself to be) very spiritual(ly advanced), who are you or i to say they aren't unless they show themselves to be not spiritually minded? [|)]. remember, not everyone is equal, some are very spiritually advanced eventhough others are not.

i guess what i'm trying to say is "live and let live" [].

~kakkarot

[Mustardseed]

Come on Xander, no need to get angry ok. I never claimed to be nobody special. I said in my post, lets discuss it and proceeded to put forward my opinion and what I have gathered and what I am contemplating. I you do not agree thats fine, but explain to me what you do think about the subjects.

These observations are just my opinion and I think they are valid points.

We do not have to agree, right? nor are we in this (AP) to establish a commen belief system or absolve one such. While you are at it , drop the remerks about my spelling please, thats just silly. Do you advocate that only people who spell correctly or spend 4 times as long as you composing a post using spellchecks and copying messages, can debate? And all that talk about knocking me out of ...whatever it was.....Hello, are we having a bad hairday[]. Lets be friends for goodness sake and have a sense of humour ok.

Regards Mustardseed

[Candieapple]

Kerrblur- To try and answer some more of your questions, I don't know about whats "new age" or not, never researched it & it doesn't matter to me. Its good that you ask why God gave man gifts if they're to be condemned. Man condemns the gifts (mostly those who have none, not God.) Remember God didn't write the Bible, man did. And God spoke through MANY prophets and seers, (today called mediums). So reason it out for yourself. Everyone has the gifts, only few have developed them, just like learning to ride a bike. If one never tried, they'd never learn. That's what were doing here with OBE's. Also our species only uses up to 10% of their brain. What's the other 90% for? Holding our faces and hairdo's up?[]HeHe. This 90% is the sleeping abilities within us, our piece of God within us. Why did God give us a brain that big? Can you imagine what we could do if 100% was working! Wow! Beautiful[]! Again, reason it out for yourself.

As for material to defend yourself with to bring to church, the book "My First Encounter With An Angel" by Sidney Schwartz will certainly cover that. It points out how verses were changed from the original Hebrew text, points out the verses and explains the gifts performed by Daniel, Elijah, Jesus, etc., and gives definitions for all the gifts. Excellent reading. But be prepared - it will knock your socks off! It can be found on Amazon.com, check it out. But you must realize here that your trying to connect spiritual development and the christian religion, when the christian religion has been, for centuries, doing the exact opposite, DISCONNECTING! If everyone learned to develop their gifts, what would they need the church for? They wouldn't need a pastor/priest to talk to God for them, when they can do it themselves? You see? So the church condemns it, not God, who gave the gifts. The church doors would close. Good luck if you wish to argue with them, anything you bring up will be denied. But its always good to learn the truth yourself. My husband and I found that we had to leave our church and move onto a group more "like minded".

When I stated Cor Chapters 12-14 were "hidden", I merely meant that you NEVER hear of these verses in church or church teachings. At least I NEVER had in 8 years of Catholic school with religion as a graded subject, or any of the 20 years going to Catholic/Baptist services. They don't want to bring that up. WHY??? Reason it out for yourself. You only hear the popular stories, Adam & Eve, Noah, Birth of Christ, and OF COURSE his death, which he isn't dead, so why is everyone a sinner? []

As for the "Gifts of the Spirit" not being related to psychic phenomena - again reason it out. Psychic comes from the Greek word psychikos that means soul, or mind. Phenomenon meaning - a fact or event of unique or special significance. In 1 Corinthin 12:8-11, Paul (a medium via Jesus) describes the many different abilities demonstrated by the power of the soul, through the Spirit of God: - "utterance of wisdom" and "utterance of knowledge" are today called clairvoyance, clairaudience, and prophecy, there is also healing, etc.. What else would you call it? And, if the only people who had those gifts were Christians, - Isaiah (not a Christian) prophesies the birth of Christ, how did he do that when Christianity hadn't been developed yet, because Jesus hadn't been born or died yet. And what about all the other guys with gifts in the Old Testament? Are they just chop-liver?[]HeHe - Boy this takes toooooooo much energy I'd prefer to spend on developing OBE's and other gifts![]
Parting note:
Kerrblur - I recommend reading the book mentioned above - it WILL give you what your searching for. Also, if you want to connect science with spituality there is "The Field" by Lynne McTaggart, excellent! or any books on quantum physics. I could go on and on with this subject, but much prefer to use my energies learning in other forums than debating here. I'm going to hang out in other forums - but before I go, a little food for thought: REASON THIS OUT - Adam & Eve were the only people that God created, they had only two children at that time, Cain & Abel (Gen 4:1-2) and then Cain & Abel "knew" their wifes (Gen 4:17-19). WHO DID CAIN AND ABEL MARRY? Where did those beautiful wifes come from?[:O]  

As for proof of God's existence - Just look out your window! Is the universe big enough proof? God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent! He's not a bearded old man dwelling in some piece of real estate in the sky. God is an Energy Force! - of great magnitude that pulsates through everything, all of us, everything has a piece of God within. God is in the ultra-violet blue of the butterfly, the whispering wind kissing your face, an insect's spectacular wings, a spider's neatly woven web splashed with dew, a fishes shimmering scales, the joy of childrens laughter, and the warm feeling inside of lovers embracing. God is all![]

Lots of luck, let me know how you do![]

[Kerrblur]

Candieapple -

    Hey there! HeH you just blew my mind up with thanks.  Again, your grateful replies in helping me understand my concern is well thought in my mind! we'll have to meet in the astral plane so I can give you a big hug! [] Heh! And thank you for well, basicaLLy defining the words described in: Corinthin 12:8-11

In Corinthin 12:8-11, Paul (a medium via Jesus) describes the many different abilities demonstrated by the power of the soul, through the Spirit of God: - "utterance of wisdom" and "utterance of knowledge" are today called clairvoyance, clairaudience, and prophecy, there is also healing, etc

 Great work! Great work indeed, I will definently try to goto a library or something to find these books, I have not any money to buy the books for myself, lol only 20, and going to school Heh []

 Man, okay nothing else to say but great appreciation for your reply! good bye! hope to talk to you again! [][8D][]

[xander]

quote:Originally posted by Mustardseed

Come on Xander, no need to get angry ok.

Sorry. I took my school stress out on you. It's just real easy for me to go off on people who claim that their path is the ONLY path.

Xander

[Mustardseed]

Hi Guys
Well I am not thatb well read, however being a believer in the literal interpretation of the Bible I believe that they married their sisters!!! Makes sense to me.

We could disagree on lots but agree on as much , what will we occupy our mind with.

Regards Mustardseed

[Kerrblur]

Hello,

    I'm sorry if I brought any judgemental issues to an area I thought would bring positive questioning and bringing good discussion.  Maybe I was only thinking of myself or I brought up too braud(AP?) of topic.  Anyway with you guys discussing this major topic, it is hopefully bringing answer to many others that I myself have.  [8D]

 For all the 'guests' who are reading this also, I was a guest for awhile and never really joined.  I realized in order to help others and myself, I joined and became a member of this forum, so I urge the obvious numbers of 'guests' reading this to join and lol [)] post as many questions and comments like I am doing lol.  

 I just want to bring a window of secrets and common 'science-fiction' conception areas, closer to a area of well practiced religion.  Try to stop all negitive or even non-believing emotions of spiritual gifts closer to christianity.

 Or on the other hand, maybe, with some luck change some peoples view's who believe in spiritual gifts but have negative or
non-believing emotions on what people call 'God.  

 So if I have a open-mind on what you call 'new age', try to not argue with what I'm trying to give to you(any one who argues, not discussing).

Thank You,

[bomohwkl]

Why do you need the proof of God?
The "proof" is always in the mind. It is never anything material. Let me give you an example.

Here of advice of people seeking of proof from Tom in http://www.thefreedomofchoice.com/

Suppose that you find some unusual rock or mineral. Is it a proof? OF WHAT???

Suppose that you find an inhabitable planet called Earth with abundance of lifeforms on which there are a few gigantic pyramids. Is it a proof? Of WHAT???

Some "scientists" will say that it is all a proof of "uncertainty" in the Universe and that everything exists just because it CAN. Others will not notice lifeforms and will choose to believe that pyramids are simply cementary monuments constructed by slaves. Very few people will notice and appreciate that stones from which the Great Pyramid is constructed are quite heavy (20 to 50 tons), that they are fitted to each other in 3D with phenomenal air-tight precision, and there are no rope or other ANY OTHER handling marks on their edges despite the fact that the stone material is very delicate and soft.

From the above it is obvious that concusions and "proofs" are determined and limited by Intellect who makes them. Do you remember a story of a dog?

My view is that, in essence, there is no need to prove anything to anyone, except yourself. Just try to make sense of everything that you become aware of. Examining and/or adopting opinions of other people may be useful or not - it is YOUR CHOICE.

Who will you become in the Universe depends exclusively on what you manage to understand yourself and on what choices you make on the basis of your understanding. [Tom]

[exothen]

candieapple,

quote:Remember God didn't write the Bible, man did. And God spoke through MANY prophets and seers, (today called mediums).

All scripture is God-breathed, that is, God worked through man so that what was written down was what God wanted man to know. Propehts are not the same as mediums today. Mediums are condemned in the Bible since their source of knowledge does not come from God whereas prophets spoke as God commanded them. Huge difference.

quote:Also our species only uses up to 10% of their brain. What's the other 90% for? Holding our faces and hairdo's up?HeHe. This 90% is the sleeping abilities within us, our piece of God within us. Why did God give us a brain that big? Can you imagine what we could do if 100% was working! Wow! Beautiful! Again, reason it out for yourself.

This a very common misconception, we actually do use all of our brains.

quote:When I stated Cor Chapters 12-14 were "hidden", I merely meant that you NEVER hear of these verses in church or church teachings. At least I NEVER had in 8 years of Catholic school with religion as a graded subject, or any of the 20 years going to Catholic/Baptist services.

Well, there's your problem. You went to Baptist and Catholic churches. Charasmatic/Pentecostal churches do believe in these gifts, teach about them, and practice them. I have heard those passages being taught in other denominations as well.

quote:In 1 Corinthin 12:8-11, Paul (a medium via Jesus) describes the many different abilities demonstrated by the power of the soul, through the Spirit of God: - "utterance of wisdom" and "utterance of knowledge" are today called clairvoyance, clairaudience, and prophecy, there is also healing, etc.. What else would you call it?

Not what you called it, that's for sure. First, Paul was not a medium. Second, there is no "power of the soul, through the Spirit of God," that is a New Age interpretation of scripture. The gifts of the Spirit are exercised by the power of the Spirit. We have no power in and of ourselves and that is one of the main reasons why the New Age is completely incompatible with Christianity. Third, source of those gifts is God, the source of clairvoyance and clairaudience are not of God.

quote:And, if the only people who had those gifts were Christians, - Isaiah (not a Christian) prophesies the birth of Christ, how did he do that when Christianity hadn't been developed yet, because Jesus hadn't been born or died yet. And what about all the other guys with gifts in the Old Testament?

No, they weren't Christians, they were Jews who feared and followed God. Again, the gifts they had were given by God and used by the power of God.

quote:God is an Energy Force! - of great magnitude that pulsates through everything, all of us, everything has a piece of God within. God is in the ultra-violet blue of the butterfly, the whispering wind kissing your face, an insect's spectacular wings, a spider's neatly woven web splashed with dew, a fishes shimmering scales, the joy of childrens laughter, and the warm feeling inside of lovers embracing. God is all!

You need to reason that out. That is an illogical and irrationsl belief to hold.

[kakkarot]

exothen:  

quote:We have no power in and of ourselves

but if this is true then such things as magic, psi, chi, kundalini, mediumship, conjuring of spirits, etc don't happen, or at the very least WE can't do them since we don't have any power to do so. but reality has shown that idea to be wrong; magic and such do exist, and we humans do perform them, so obviously we do have power in ourselves.

however, if you are talking from a christian standpoint, then i can see how what you are saying is true: as christians when "we" perform miracles it is not by our own power but by the power of God/Holy Spirit.

and if it is this difference between our own power and God's power which makes one thing a sin to perform and the other not a sin (ie, magic is a sin because it is our own power, whereas speaking is tounges is not because it is from God), then think of this: when you take a crap, is it God doing so through you? no, but then since you are doing something apart from God aren't you sinning? no.

we are NOT God, we are seperate from Him eventhough we may be able to form temporary/permanent connections, we are still distinctly seperate. and if we are seperate then that means that we DO do things on our own without the power of God doing it through us, which means that either EVERYTHING we do apart from God is a sin or NOTHING we do apart from God is a sin merely based on the fact that we do is with God's power or not.

it is what we focus our lives on which determines whether we follow God or not: i know people who practice magic and who use it to strengthen and further their relationship with God (heck, some people on these forums do that). as well, there are people who use mediumship to (supposedly) channel angels of God (i don't believe it myself, but me not believing it isn't proof that they are wrong). and what about simon the sorcerer? who wanted to pay the apostles to give him the gifts of the Holy Spirit? paul (or whoever it was) rebuked him not because he practiced magic, but because he thought he could buy the Holy Spirit.


and finally to go back to a point you made way earlier, there is overwhelming evidence to show that the bible is NOT identical to the original, especially accentuated by the fact that there are numerous translations of the bible which DO contradict other translations (and even some translations which blatantly contradict themselves). so which bible is it, then, which is God breathed? none (as you probably would know), since the bible was not written as a unified book, but as a series of books and letters by different people, which the catholic church later grouped together as what is now known as "The Holy Bible".

we lose a lot in the translations of those letters and books, and even if there is one bible out there that is true to the original, there are way to many that aren't, which subtley distort the message and completely destroy the idea that the scripture itself is perfect. the ideas contained within the scriptures are what people should really be searching for: the idea that we should love even our enemies (which is just as strange an idea now as it was in jesus' time), that we should not try to be rich, that we should believe in a God who loved us so much that He sent His son to die as a blood sacrifice for our own atonement. it is the ideas contained in the scriptures that God wants us to understand and do; for a man can know a law easily, but to understand it is something far better.


are we off topic enough kerrblur? [|)]

~kakkarot

[Kerrblur]

exothen,

    Okay, my turn to quote all your saying because I feal I need to state to you; why is it that you demolish everyones posts even when they say there beliefs WITH something to back them up on.  You on the other hand, quote other peoples things and just demolish them like your words are right, WITHOUT anything to back what you say?



All scripture is God-breathed, that is, God worked through man so that what was written down was what God wanted man to know. Propehts are not the same as mediums today. Mediums are condemned in the Bible since their source of knowledge does not come from God whereas prophets spoke as God commanded them. Huge difference.

Okay brother, your first sentance was exactly what she said but worded differently, so is your first sentance right? No. its the same.
Okay 2nd sentance: Why are prophets different from mediums today?  And tell me EXACTLY where it condemns mediums in the bible, thats right, isnt it in the old testament? I'm sure one of you will answe that one. 3rd sentance: Mediums dont get info from god but prophets do?  Then how are each and every one of us born with A optionable(or rarity being borin with it) training to have such powers? (question 2) then are guides a source from the devil? lol does 'GOD' send angels to watch our everyday life? Hmmm  Not much of a differance, ever read "Talking to Heaven" by James Van Praagh? I've personally met him 5 times. I believe him over you anyday(since he backs his words with knowledge)

This a very common misconception, we actually do use all of our brains.

HaHaH, okay 1st sentance, only sentance: this one, like all your domolishing comments had absolutely no backing once so ever.  You probably watched some MTV- True/False myth show for that fact you wrote.  Give me factual proof we do not use 10% of our brains, infact we use 90% or more? if that was the case, then wouldnt every single person be super-human and use telepathy instead of phones? or Telekinisis to grab the tooth-brush? HaH Nawww, you have to earn it.
But I might be wrong! [8D]



Well, there's your problem. You went to Baptist and Catholic churches. Charasmatic/Pentecostal churches do believe in these gifts, teach about them, and practice them. I have heard those passages being taught in other denominations as well.

1st bad grammered sentance: You didnt even read what she said.
2nd Sentance: She went to baptist Chatholic Churches? didn't she already say that?
3rd sentance: Aparently you did not read what she said, let me type it out: When I stated Cor Chapters 12-14 were "hidden", I merely meant that you NEVER hear of these verses in church or church teachings. At least I NEVER had in 8 years of Catholic school with religion as a graded subject, or any of the 20 years going to Catholic/Baptist services.  She said you merely , almost NEVER hear this stuff in her church(as in my christian church) and she goes on saying why if you read it.Therefore her church does not PREACH about it.  
4th Sentance: Okay, now, tell me what ALL passages have you heard and from what EACH denominations, back it up!!  stop demolishing everyones comments like what you say is the RIGHT thing. you quoted: "Sorry. I took my school stress out on you. It's just real easy for me to go off on people who claim that their path is the ONLY path."  you hipicrit. sorry. read my post before yours, I said, "Be open  minded" "Stop argueing", (or in your case demolishing).


Not what you called it, that's for sure. First, Paul was not a medium. Second, there is no "power of the soul, through the Spirit of God," that is a New Age interpretation of scripture. The gifts of the Spirit are exercised by the power of the Spirit. We have no power in and of ourselves and that is one of the main reasons why the New Age is completely incompatible with Christianity. Third, source of those gifts is God, the source of clairvoyance and clairaudience are not of God.

1st Sentance: If Paul was not a medium, what was he? back something up for once, so far, nothing....
2nd sentance:  No "power of the soul, through the spirit of god"?  okay can anyone else BESIDES exothen state that this is in the bible? because he cannot back his words up, only with arrogance and stupidity, predujice(SP?) remarks.  See I know not much about the bible, but I am definently not preaching what is "RIGHT".  You cant even describe what "New Age' is.  How is "Power of the soul"
New Age? what the F*$& is new age anyway?  apparently you know everything back something up for once, without putting everything in "your own" catagories.  WE have no power in and ourselfve blah blah blah, what exactly does that mean? can you also describe how 'clairvoyance and clairaudience ' are not of god? explain how they are not gifts then? explain what they are then? see you understand what your posting here Mr. lol  your posting a bunch of ignorant BS, and it stays BS, until you add some actual knowledge to it without predujice(SP?).  next paragraph... F*^$ this I'm done, I said in my last post, have a open mind, and dont argue, which means dont DEMOLISH what people say, I'm done with this post arrogant people reply on here because there stupid.  mustardseed and candieapple are prolly the only knowledgable(sorry If I missed anyone) people on here, one person ruins it.  Peace

[bomohwkl]

It seems that while trying to prove the existence of God, the topic changes into proving the truthfulness of that fact that Bible is God words or book of God.

First of all,
What is God? I confessed I have limited understanding of God but from my extensive observation of the world and the universe around, I find out that tremendous intelligence is required to understand the physical laws governing the universe. If God is the DESIGNER of this universe, then I am 100% sure that God is extremely INTELLIGENT .A untra-extremely small mistake in initial condition of Big Bang will result in an inhabitable universe.

If you don't have strong knowing that God is ultra-intelligent, there is no points of reading further.


If you are 100% sure that God is ultra intelligent, then proceeds,
Since so much care and intelligence are used to design the living universe, then how can you EXPLAIN the obvious mistakes (or I say thousands of them) in the Bible from spelling to illogical conceptions? God isn't an idiot! I only know ultra-intelligent GOD from my extensive observations of the world around me. This can be verified by everyone. In short,what we now call "bible" is a collection of stories written by PEOPLE who had very limited understanding what happened around them. You can verified by yourself.

[exothen]

kakkarot,

quote:then think of this: when you take a crap, is it God doing so through you? no, but then since you are doing something apart from God aren't you sinning? no.

See, now this is just silliness and is completely irrelevant to the discussion. We are talking about spiritual and moral matters, not biological functions.

quote:and if we are seperate then that means that we DO do things on our own without the power of God doing it through us,

Of course we do things on our own. But in terms of spiritual "activities," we either do them by the power of God, or the power of Satan. In and of ourselves we have no spiritual power; we draw on an outside source.

quote:it is what we focus our lives on which determines whether we follow God or not: i know people who practice magic and who use it to strengthen and further their relationship with God

They might be getting closer to "a god" but not God, certainly not the Christian God: Rev. 21:8, "8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death"" (also Rev. 22:15).

quote:there is overwhelming evidence to show that the bible is NOT identical to the original, especially accentuated by the fact that there are numerous translations of the bible which DO contradict other translations (and even some translations which blatantly contradict themselves). so which bible is it, then, which is God breathed? none (as you probably would know)

The autographs, the originals, are God-breathed. As for your "overwhelming evidence," I would really like to see that. It is very well established and accepted that the NT is over 99% accurate based on the textual criticism of 5,686 Greek manuscripts and over 19,284 manuscripts in other languages. That's about 25,000 manuscripts of the NT, more than enough to determine how accurate they are. Not to mention the approixmately 86,000 quotes of the NT by early church fathers.

There are some discrepanices between translations, but that is because there are thousands more manuscripts available now then there were hundreds of years ago. But the majority of translations strive to accurately preserve the gospel message and in that, there are no differences.

quote:and even if there is one bible out there that is true to the original, there are way to many that aren't, which subtley distort the message and completely destroy the idea that the scripture itself is perfect.

You would have to prove that there are many translations which distort the message (NWT is an obvious one).

[exothen]

kerrblur,

quote:Why are prophets different from mediums today? And tell me EXACTLY where it condemns mediums in the bible, thats right, isnt it in the old testament? I'm sure one of you will answe that one.

Of course I'll answer it, it would be rude to not do so. You asked, I'll answer. I stated why prophets are different from mediums. And, yes, mediums are condemned in the OT, but that doesn't matter. Surely you don't think that because it is in the OT that it doesn't apply to today???

As I have shown the Bible condemns sorcery (Mic. 5:12 (fortune telling as well);Rev. 21:8; 22:15), witchcraft, and mediums. The point is that from the beginning to the end of the Bible God condemns anyone who seeks spiritual guidance and/or power from a source other than him (the only other source is Satan).

Deuteronomy 18:10-12, "10 "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 "For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. ""

Leviticus 19:31, "31 'Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.'"

I could go on, but you get the picture. The prophets in the Bible received revelation from God; mediums receive revelation from Satan.

quote:then are guides a source from the devil?

Spirit guides? Yes.

quote:I've personally met him 5 times. I believe him over you anyday(since he backs his words with knowledge)

That's nice. But if you call yourself a Christian, you better be listening to people who back themselves up with scripture.

quote:1st bad grammered sentance: You didnt even read what she said.

Bad grammer??? Shall I go through your bad grammer and spelling? I wouldn't even know where to start. And, yes, I read what she said.

quote:2nd Sentance: She went to baptist Chatholic Churches? didn't she already say that?

Ummm...yeah. Do you understand why I restated that?

quote:If Paul was not a medium, what was he? back something up for once, so far, nothing....

Did you say you are a Christian? Have you ever read your Bible? I do mean this sincerely. Paul was an apostle (Rom. 1:1; 1 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 1:1; etc., etc., etc.), which in Greek means "one who is sent." More specifically, he was the apostle to the Gentiles, which means he spread the Gospel beyond Jerusalem and Judea.

You say you want people to have an open mind, but yet your mind doesn't seem very open. I do keep an open mind, but when I compare what I believe is the truth to most of what is posted in these forums, they don't hold up. How do you, or anyone else, expect to know what is true if you don't compare and question what you believe to be true?

Edited because I forgot to answer this:

quote:Give me factual proof we do not use 10% of our brains, infact we use 90% or more? if that was the case, then wouldnt every single person be super-human and use telepathy instead of phones? or Telekinisis to grab the tooth-brush? HaH Nawww, you have to earn it.
But I might be wrong!

Yes, you are wrong. Why do people assume that if we used all of our brains we would be super human and have all these powers? That's absurd, especially since it is a fact that we do use all of our brains. Take a course on introductory Psychology kerrblur.

[exothen]

bomohwkl,

quote:Since so much care and intelligence are used to design the living universe, then how can you EXPLAIN the obvious mistakes (or I say thousands of them) in the Bible from spelling to illogical conceptions? God isn't an idiot!

First, since you claim that there are thousands of obvious mistakes in the Bible, the onus is on you to start proving it. Second, see the post I made to kakkarot above.

[Van-Stolin]

Exothen, everyone cares about what you have to say on the subject, but what they don't like is when it is pushed on to them as the truth and only truth.  Somethings you should know though is that, yes there is mistakes and contridictions in the bible, I have never read it so I don't know the passage, but on this site there is already a dicussion about this.  What was said in the passage was when Adam was hiding from God.  God askes why Adam is hiding and where he is hiding.  Now in the bible it also says that God is all knowing and all seeing, so why would he have to ask Adam these things?  I beleive in God, I also belive that the human soul has power and that power was givin by God when he made us.  Satan can not give any power to the soul since he didn't create it.

One thing that I find odd though is that Chritians judge these people without even knowing them, they say that it is bad becuase someone told them it was and he said that God said it was, well how do you know that this man wasn't lying, humans will do anything for power.

Even with people saying that this power is bad, what do most do with it, they help people, they put it to good use and yet they are ridicled and put down.  That is why I lost faith in Christianity, I still belive in God, but not what some of Christianity teaches.