Sharia ........watch how its gonna happen in YOUR country

[Mustardseed]

The recent scandal in Germany compounds what I have been trying to say all along. Sharia law supercedes common law to a Muslim and political correctness "in high places" makes us all an open target for a Religion belonging in the middle ages. Give me your take on this. What about you Jeehad do you support the Koran in this matter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070322/wl_afp/germanyjusticeislam_070322132641

regards Mustardseed

[Mydral]

Religious laws have 0% value compared to laws of a country, unless they are the same like in some Arabian countries. Its idiotic to take a religious text and put it above the law.

What if I sacrifice my kid and say I was just following the Old Testament to appease God?

[Mustardseed]

Absolutely...............could not agree more. What about YOU Jeehad do you support Sharia in western countries

[James S]

I also totally agree Mydral.

But there's one thing worth thinking about....
The laws of a country are mostly based on religious laws to begin with.

This is why we often see big discrepancies between the laws of western countries and those of middle-eastern countries.

[DH]

I also totally agree Mydral.
But there's one thing worth thinking about....
The laws of a country are mostly based on religious laws to begin with.
This is why we often see big discrepancies between the laws of western countries and those of middle-eastern countries.

The United States is not a "Christian country", but those who say that there is no Judeo/Christian influence on those Europeans who first settled there and set up their governments are ignorant of history.  Their beliefs first shaped the whole American sense of justice and ethics.  DH

[Jeehad]

looool Every Scholar nowadays knows that the verse that allegedly allows "wife beating" means to leave! The word Darb has multiple meanings and by understanding the root word of such we know what it truly means. It actually means to reject or leave, Therefore on the basis of "wife beating" God says that if she cheats on you at least twice you are allowed to leave the relationship.

"The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat".  The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit".  The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them.  It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English."

Taken directly from an article on the arabic language written by doctor tariq al suaidan. Now is it really a erligions fault for a mans misunderstanding of the religious system?? Can I blame Americans for misunderstanding the role Bush played on the role of Iraq and solely blame the deaths of innocent Iraqis on them? NO I cant... Secondly, Shariah law is actually a democratic system.

"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.  (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.  (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"   

"Women impure for men impure. And women of purity for men of purity. These are not affected by what people say. For them is forgiveness and an honorable provision. (The Noble Quran 24:26)"


The Islamic empire was a system known as the caliphite which allowed the people to vote for a leader. The system compared to the other systems present at that era seemed very noble in the lights of such an age. Now, shuld we incorporate the laws of the babylonians? The laws of the israelites during exile? The laws of the romans? No, they are past civilizations, they are past laws to rule mankind and seem barbaric in the lights of modern day. But lets be real here..... the Study of an Islamic system and a democratic system are really very similiar. There was a lecture I went to in Toronto on this topic. It stated how the system of sharia law actually is not implemenmted today in society. NO COUNTRY HAS AN ISLAMIC SYSTEM NOT EVEN IRAN!! An Islamic system must have a caliphite which I do not see any of this today. The laws for punishment of execution and jail time is permissible but under certain circumstances. execution must be done after a terrible deed that the person commited such as murder, or possibly rape. Although, YOU MUST BE 100% SURE OF THE INTENTION AND CRIME COMMITED. There are also many rulings which explain such consequetive actions. I'm pretty sure if the western societies governments were more lineant on punishing people instead of offering an easy way out of it would set a good example for people. Look at Saudia Arabia.. although the system is a monarchy(which is against Islamic beliefs) it still offers some views on islamic law. Such as, death if one was to murder... Such as Death as to someone was to rape. The thing I see in such a country is that the rape and murder rate is one of the lowest in the world. It bears witness to the effectievness of such a system.. although, there are some aspects to this system which I think are unislamic and nowhere in the Islamic religion overule such doins. Such as... women not driving cars? The Quran CLEARLY shows that man and women are equal!  So in retrospect, I think all modern politics is corrupt and that the political systems people try and convey are to tehre own humanly desires and not of thd divine... hope I answered your questions.

[James S]

I think that shows how much religious doctrines can vary in interpretations.

The obvious concern there is who's doing the interpreting and what kind of political influence they have.

Once again this comes back to the core messages at the heart of all religions being about love, oneness and equality, but the application of religion by those in positions of power seem to be completely the opposite.

[Jeehad]

I agree with you completely James. The danger is the interpretation of religious doctrines and not the religion itself. I dont agree with the use of religious "leaders" in any religion. Because there opinions and interpretations get projected throughought the community allowing a change in the society. In Islam when a matter is not sure of we are obliged to say allahu a3lam(Only God knows), I think that the people who perform these terrible acts are presuming and unlearned about the Islamic scriptures. I don't think that we need to literly TAKE AWAY Islam from these people, but rather teach them it... The Taliban,Alqaeda,and various groups in war should not be turned away from Islam but rather learned. I think this is the solution to stop these crimes, and injustices, become learned in the religion. Now, in the matter of shariah. During the rise of the Muslims through ought the world. It was apart of this religious law that people of all colours and skins may live among eachother. In many Muslim countries, Jews,Christians, and Arabs lived side by side among eachother without persecution. Court orders would be taken according to the plaintiffs religious beliefs. Churches, synogogues and palces of worship were permitted. I just wanted to emphasize that the Sharia doctrine governing people many centuries ago was actually quiet humane and modern in the eyes of the community. When spain was reclaiemd by the Christians, the Queen Isabella actually kicked out all Muslims and Jews and allowed ONLY roman catholics to be apart of the country...... Now on the basis of woman. I agree with you that there few countries which do not give woman equal rights to men, but I will disagree that this is an islamic doctrine. In Islam women have a choice whether they marry, wear the scarf, get a job, drive a acr etc etc. But, can you really say that solely afghani women are being treated badly? With all due respect, take a look at the USA. The rapes being done to women, the pornography and blatant uncovering of skin on woman? The Divorce, abuse, and untreatment can be FAR WORSE THEN MANY MUSLIM COUNTRIES. You need to understand it is not MUSLIM MEN FORCING WOMEN TO WEAR THE SCAR, but it is they who choose to. The "burqa" is not mandatory and it simply tells men to look at my mind and not my body. Personally, I'd choose a sharia then a Bush and Blair democracy....

[Paola]

What was that about a crooked rib? lol

[James S]

My turn to agree with you completely Jeehad.

In Islam when a matter is not sure of we are obliged to say allahu a3lam(Only God knows), I think that the people who perform these terrible acts are presuming and unlearned about the Islamic scriptures.

The Christian phrase "it's the will of God" applies very much here as well. It's as if blind acceptance to what a particular church leader says is far more preferable than seeking out the will of God for one's self.
What certainly doesn't help here is the churche's influence over people's education. Something anyone who attended catholic schools will attest to.

The history of the catholic church is most definitely written in blood, as muslims living in the middle ages experienced.

For those who would wish to point the finger at Muslim groups for the inhumane treatment of others, a good look at the beliefs and actions of Western governments, particularly that of the US is in order.

I think whichever religion is used by a dictator to rally people to thier twisted cause is typically only determined by which country they were born in.

One interesting thought here, people in western worlds criticise eastern (middle eastern) religions for the poor treatment of women. My sister - Australian born, lived for 8 years in Japan - a country that has a mix of Buddhist, Shintoist and basically atheist beliefs. Their treatment of women there is terrible. Japanese Women are treated as second class citizens, and foriegn women are treated much worse than that.

Blessings,
James.

[Jeehad]

That was an enlightening post, which you have written James. I completely 100% agree with you. It is not the religion itself, which is in danger! Dictators and men of power like to use people's beliefs to stir them into there own wills instead of Gods wills. Unfortunately the people who fall for such actions are unlearned about the religion itself. Lets not even blame Islam for the treatment of women. Any historian, or one learned in Middle Eastern culture will tell you about the call to Islam. Before Islam spread in Arabia, the country itself was engulfed with barbaric behavior. Women would be raped at will. Female newborns would be buried alive, many women were forced into marriage at young ages. Muhammad saw the evil in the society and god taught him ACCORDINGLY FROM THE QURAN to rid all this behavior. How does a religion, which abolished the mistreatment of women turn out to be accused for mistreating women?  What my Muslim brothers and sisters are doing worldwide is not a good representation of Islam............

[James S]

I don't believe it's coincidence that like Muhammad with his people, Jesus saw these atrocities happening among the Hebrews and tried to teach them to change their ways.

The sad irony is now we have the Christian religion founded by the Romans in around 300ad, with its patriarchal / male dominant views promoting women being subordinate and subservient to men whilst trying to convince people that this is "God's will" and sticking the teachings of Jesus in the middle of it as justification.

[DH]

The sad irony is now we have the Christian religion founded by the Romans in around 300ad, with its patriarchal / male dominant views promoting women being subordinate and subservient to men whilst trying to convince people that this is "God's will" and sticking the teachings of Jesus in the middle of it as justification.

You are right.  What Jesus seems to have preached is much different than the Roman version that came out later. 

Constantine was responsible for squashing all challengers to the "orthodox" theology of Athanasius.  This squashing included the death of many versions of Christianity, which included several very creative theologies of the gnostics and various Jewish-Christian sects.  However, most of these groups, including the majority of gnostics, were still patriarchal.

What's interesting to me is that there is some evidence that the earliest version of Christianity in Britain was more inclusive in leadership (female as well as male leadership) and was grounded very much in the goodness of creation and human nature.  All of this changed after the Romans consolidated their power and influence in Britain.  The Roman pattern changed everything -- from leadership (a move to solely patriarchal) to theology (Augustine's doctrine of original sin and corruption of creation replaced the Celtic idea of innate goodness in people and creation) to even architecture (Roman rectangular replaced the Celtic circle).

It makes you wonder who first took the message of Jesus to Britain.  Whoever it was seems to have been more in tune with the Jesus of the Bible.  Despite the patriarchal bias of those who put the Bible together,  we still discover the Jesus who treated women as first-class humans along with the men.  This message also seems to have struck a chord with the Druidic roots of Celtic spirituality, which was more egalitarian.

DH

[abu-usaama]

Sharia deserves to be everywhere.

[Mustardseed]

Ha Sharia. Gimme a break. Fredom of women, love and peace respect of religious differences and tolerance.

James do me a favour and spend a bit of time investigating Islam. Start with Aborgation. It is absolutely mindblowing to me that noone speaks up here. I have lived for decades in muslim countries, I know the reality as does Jeehad.

I dont want to discuss this with him anymore but James take some time to check it out Youtube, Islam and womens rights, Islam and voiolence, Islam and Jihad.............it goes on and on

Regards Mustardseed

[abu-usaama]

Ha Sharia. Gimme a break. Fredom of women, love and peace respect of religious differences and tolerance.

James do me a favour and spend a bit of time investigating Islam. Start with Aborgation. It is absolutely mindblowing to me that noone speaks up here. I have lived for decades in muslim countries, I know the reality as does Jeehad.

I dont want to discuss this with him anymore but James take some time to check it out Youtube, Islam and womens rights, Islam and voiolence, Islam and Jihad.............it goes on and on

Regards Mustardseed

The reality, whether you like it or not, is that only God has the right to Legislate, and that His legislation must be accepted. Anyone who refuses to accept a legislation from God on the basis that he personally sees it has 'inhumane' or barbaric, is in reality simply arrogant.

[Mustardseed]

The reality, whether you like it or not, is that only God has the right to Legislate, and that His legislation must be accepted. Anyone who refuses to accept a legislation from God on the basis that he personally sees it has 'inhumane' or barbaric, is in reality simply arrogant.

And what does Sharia say we / you should do with people who activly preach, lets say Christianity, in an Islamic country. They won't leave and won't stop preaching their religion tell me what does Sharia say should be done?

[abu-usaama]

And what does Sharia say we / you should do with people who activly preach, lets say Christianity, in an Islamic country. They won't leave and won't stop preaching their religion tell me what does Sharia say should be done?

Why does it matter? God's Legislation is God's Legislation. Noone can dispute with God's legislation.

"Is it the judgement of days of (preislamic) ignorance that they seek? And whom is better in judgement, than Allah, for people who have certain faith."

The Shariah is quite clear regarding the issue you brought forth. Christians are not to be permitted to preach christianity publicly .

[Jeehad]

MustardSeed its pretty funny how you claim abrogation is "mind blowing" when you cant even reply to any of my rebuttles... OH yes your SOOOOOOOO educated! Im sure benny hinn would be proud of you. About the Roman council thing which you were speaking of. I totally agree and as does Islam! We believe that Jesus DID IN FACT teach the message exactly the same as Muhammad, and moses and noah, and abraham and soloman! But the people of that time eventually changed and corrupted the message! Christianity now is a complete transformation of the word of the roman council and the lost propogated words of the Romans who used it to suit there needs. When Islam came into its final form it said to turn worship away from Jesus and Redirect it to God almighty, and rule under Gods law. In Islam we are not permitted to rule under any man made government ssytems. Tell me MustardSeed is democracy really working in Iraq??? Is demcoracy really working in chechna? Is it even working in America? Do you really think people have freedom of speech? Do you really think people are able to walk through the streets without fear? Just look at your own society before judging an Islamic doctrine which you have no knowledge about.  Your interpretation of shariah is that portrayed by your opressive and closed miknded government, you are the same as them! A zealost bigot who's linear train of thought forbids them to learn the truth. Its a shame you don't get it...

[James S]

Hi Mustardseed,

I have absolutely no doubt that women are being very poorly treated in Muslim countries.
I do believe that many women have been forced to wear burqas and be subjugated by innapropriate laws and restrictions rather than doing so by choice.

I feel though that these human rights issues come back to the interpretation and implimentation of islamic teachings by ruling parties rather than the spiritual roots of the teachings, just as I feel many christian teachings have been wrongly interpreted and implimented to diminish people's rights.

Mustardseed just wanna tell you you are such a nice guy sorry just had to ......

[Paola]

What is the problem with women and skin or wrists or hair?, like , we were born naked not furred lol

And really, if a women is covered, isnt that even more fantasy creating for the men?.

Come on, get real.

The muslim men i speak to on the internet, drive me insane with wanting to talk about sex and they get really rude and obnoxious.  They seem very frustrated. I dont seem to get that from non muslim men.

BTW do the women wear undergarments? lol.
That would drive men crazy in the west, if the women covered themselves with no undergarments lol.

And why cant muslims sing solo, has to be in groups only?

And why is the answer to all muslims problems the death penality?

And not one religion has proved the existance of God yet, so what is this about the undisputable word of God?
We dont know what God is yet.  The only clue we have is to look in a mirror.

[Jeehad]

Paola I shall try explaining all your questions to you inshallah ^^. First of all, let us judge the religion and not the followers! For I do agree there are people who are distorted and twisted in there views and ideas but it should not be a representation of Islsm and may God spare mercy on them adn direct them to a riteous path. Anotehr thing, the covering for women is optional! Many people in the west believe that Men force there women to cover up but this is nto the case. The prophet Muhammad specifically states that the covering is a choice and onyl performed if she is right. Islam gives equal rights to both men and women! So, if you chose to wear a pink bag instead of a black one even though it contradicts the fashion trend its no problem correct? See, Muslims in general are pious people.... Oour struggle to liev what God has chosen contineus through out our lives. Read my previous posts on laws and such since I do not want to repeat them:P Another improtant fact, the reason why we believe Islam is the indisputable truth is because the Quran (the revelation sent down to Muhammad) contains amazing things which appeals to many people. Islam is the fastest growing in the world(conversion rate), so thinka bout it for a second if it truly was an opressive religion then why are people turning to it? The existence of God almighty is all around you, you testify unto yourself of his existence. The earth, the trees the wind the stars testify unto tiself of the existence of God almighty the supreme the most merciful. So ask yourself where did you come from? Why are you here? Learn and read and inshallah may God open the path for you and show you the reality of his existence.

Peace and blessings.

[James S]

Ok, I'm feeling the urge to rattle the cages of religious "truth" here.

Islam is most definitely not the fastest growing faith in terms of conversion rate.
Sorry Jeehad, that old argument got blown out of the water a long time ago.

That "fact" came from the Reader's Digest Almanac published back in 1983 which claimed a global growth rate of 235%
The truth of the matter was revealed by UN global census surveys that showed the growth in Islam is directly attributable to the population growth rate in countries, many being 3rd world countries, where Islam is the main religion.

Since the late 90's, Wicca or Neopaganism is actually the fastest growing faith in terms of actual conversions. Between 1990 and 2001 wicca has experienced a growth rate of 143%.

A "quick reference" source of info about this can be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion

The second thing I'm going to pick on here is the Qu'ran being "indisputable truth".

The only piece of literature or information available that can support the claim the Qu'ran is the indisputable truth is the Qu'ran itsself.
And guess what? The Bible makes exactly the same claim

So since both the Bibile AND the Qu'ran claim to be the indesputable truth, which one is correct?
While I find there to be much beauty and wisdom contained within the pages of both books, it's this kind of sheer arrogance from the religions surrounding them that keeps me away.

[Jeehad]

James then I challenge you to find me at least one error in the Holy Quran? Or a contradiction?and for every error I shall conjure at least 10 in the Bible. The fact is that the Holy Quran remains unchanged and errorless? This is quiet funny because even modern day literture will have some sort of contradictions, especially religious texts.

Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world...

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9704/14/egypt.islam/

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/a100501b.html

Data for Islam reveal that the growing number of Muslims is due primarily to the higher than average birth-rates and consequent population growths of Muslim countries and communities.
In 2006, countries with a Muslim majority had an average population growth rate of 1.8% per year (when weighted by percentage Muslim and population size).[9] This compares with a world population growth rate of 1.12% per year.[10]
According to the World Christian Encyclopaedia, between 1990 and 2000, Islam received around 865,558 converts each year. This compares with an approximate 2,883,011 converts each year for Christianity during the same period.[6]
The World Almanac Book of Facts 1935 estimated 209,020,000 Muslims in the World. The Readers Digest Almanac 1983, estimated 700,000,000, Comparing these two estimates gives an average annual growth of 5% or 10,228,750 for Islam over these 48 years.[11] But note that this value is as unreliable as these rates are calculated from two separate sources, which may have used different counting rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion#Wicca

[James S]

"James then I challenge you to find me at least one error in the Holy Quran? Or a contradiction?"

You know I might just be wasting a great deal of time I could be spending doing something far more useful and enjoyable than arguing religion with a zealot (like getting my nipples pierced or reading the local tax laws), but here, cop a few of these:
(No their not mine. A great many other people have done just as you have asked me, so this was definitely a case of "Google is my friend")

How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?

Quran 7: 54 Your gurdian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 10: 3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days

Quran 11:7 He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days
Quran-25:29: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days

The above verses clearly state that God created the heaven and Allah created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days. But the verses below stated-

Quran 41: 9 Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?

Quran 41: 10 He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS...

Quran 41: 12 So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and ...

So which is it, six, four or two?


Allah's Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?

Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning

Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.

I guess Muhammad wasn't too good at Math!


Koran teaches us that the Sun sets in a muddy spring:

Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring...

Quran 18: 90 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.

Serious scientific errors here! Firstly, it is scientifically accepted fact that, the Sun never go down in a muddy spring. Secondly, this seems to presuppose a FLAT Earth, otherwise how can there be an extreme point in the West or in the East? A sunrise there would be basically just the same as at any other place on this earth, at land or sea. It would still look as if it is setting "far away". It does say, that he reached THE PLACE where the Sun sets and in his second Journey the place where it rises.

Does Earth Spread Out Like Carpet (flat)?

Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;

Quran 78: 6-7 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs (anchor)?

Allah was sure that earth is flat like a carpet and mountains are there to anchor the earth so that earth does not shake with us. Allah is really merciful scientist.

Is Man Created From Clotted Blood?
Quran-23:14: Then fashioned We the drop (semen) a CLOT OF CONGEALED BLOOD then fashioned We the Clot a little lump (foetus), fashioned We the little lump into bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators. ( Bengali translated Quran said: "Zamaa't Raokto theeke Manoosh banieesi" And this Ayat has been repeated again and again throughout the Quran ) Quran-75:38: Then he becomes a CLOT; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned...

Quran 96: 2 Created man, out of a mere clot of congealed blood

There are serious scientific problems here:

Blood clot cannot grow into anything. This idea also came from the Greek. Aristotle erroneously believed that, humans are originated from the action of male semen upon female menstrual blood, which is absolutely an incorrect assumption. Quran's assertion on Clot (alaqa) is completely wrong about human development, since there is absolutely no stage during which the embryo consists of a clot. The only situation in which an embryo might appear like a clot is during a miscarriage, in which case the clotted blood that is seen to emerge (much of which comes from mother) is solidified and by definition no longer alive. Therefore, if ever an embryo appeared to look like a clot it would never develop any further into a human; it would be a dead mass of bloody miscarrying flesh. Since Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had some thirteen wives it is entirely possible that he would be very familiar with miscarriages.

This also highlights another point that I believe Gandalf has made a time or two. Much of Muhammad's scientific insight was not give to him by Allah, but by Greek scientists and philosophers that came along many years before him. This example above is a mistake that was "coincidentally" also made by Aristotle.


Ok, and here's a real biggie for you...

Is religion compulsive or is it not?

Quran 02: 256 There is no Compulsion in religion....

OR

Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.

Quran 9: 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush....

Quran 47: 4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads....

Quran 2: 191 And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

Quran 8: 65 O Apostle ! rouse the believers to the fight of....unbelievers.

Very often apologetics claim that, Islam is a religion of peace and there is no compulsion. Yet punishment of an apostate in Islam is, of course, death penalty.



Ok this didn't actually take me long at all. I'm sure I could have found many more but I do dislike posting long boring posts of words that are not my own. There is an entire legion of theologins, philosophers and religious researchers that have spent many years studying both the Bible and the Qu'ran and have found massive errors and contradictions in both. I figured better to leave it to people more knowledgeable about this stuff than I.

What I can and will tell you about my own views of the Qu'ran are this:
I've said before there is much spiritual wisdom and beauty in both the Qu'ran and the Bible. But it is my belief that these words have been defiled by the religious leaders (and the blind followers) that promote them.

My spirit, my soul, that part of me that is God-self cannot abide by the teachings of men, of the man made religions that oppose the laws of love with their egotistical fear based manipulations.

So tell me Jeehad, are you prepared to accept that there are errors and inconsistencies in the writings of Muhammad, or, just like a Christian zealot, are you led by blind faith?

Although you have made some very insightful posts Jeehad, you still do come across like a blinded religious zealot, so please excuse me if I choose not to debate religion with you any more. Not only do I find it pointless, I'm also not actually really interested in trying to change your mind about your beliefs. Only you can do that.
My role here in these kind of topics is to bring a bit of balance back and stop zealots from pushing their religions on people in a manner unchecked.