Sharia ........watch how its gonna happen in YOUR country

[Nay]

*raises hand*

I think I can help ya with the nipple piercing... 

[Jeehad]

HeHe James ^^ With all due respect I shall begin refuting your "contradictions" First of all,

How many days did it take to create Heavens and Earth ?

Upon creation, the Quran is a sequence ofe xplaining Gods creation in a period of 6 ayam(in total) 1 ayam means a period. Most Arabic translations use thje word period for we do not believe the earth was created in 6 literal days but rather 6 stages or periods. Secondly, if you notice the term " the heavens and earth " used in the description of the 6 ayam. The term heavens and earth refers to literlly everything! Now if you have noticed the otehr side of the contradiction only states either the earth(which was createdd in 2 ayams) or the mountains and nourhsjmen on the 4th day and the atmoshperic layers in 2 ayams SO ine ssence, 6 ayam refers to the total amount for creation and the other ayams refers to the creation of that particular thing mentioned.

Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?

Allah’s Days Equal to 1000 Years or 50,000 Years?

Quran 22: 47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning. Quran-32:5: To Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be a thousands years of your rekoning

Quran 70: 4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is Fifty thousands years.

lol the verses are talking about completely differnt things....

Sun sets in mudy springs?

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503547494&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar

refer to that plz

Earth is spread out?
First of all you shall notice the (like a carpet) in

Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable;

lol nowhere in the Quran does it mention anything about being flat like a carpet. Allah clearly is saying that he spread out the earth, although in many verses we see allah describe the earth as an egg shape. The Quran makes clear draws that the earth is a rather spherical object.


Is Man Created From Clotted Blood?

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=102

This will surprise you:P

compulsion in religion?
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34770&ln=eng



If you truly cared about my answer then you would read the links:P Every so called error or contradiction is actually not valid at all and are easily explained. Read the holy Quran and you shall see what I am talking about.

[James S]

Jeehad,
You gave me EXACTLY the answer I expected.
So predictable.

See, I've played this game.
16 years in the Christian church defending the Bible against "nonbelievers". Defending against exactly the kind of accusation you made a couple of posts ago.
The answers and defensive arguments Bible scholars have concocted over the years are an artform with the most astounding twists in logic used to defend a logically indefensible position.

But here's the rub -
Just like Christians defending the Bible, the only defense you can ever possibly provide are interpretations of the Qu'ran itsself. NOTHING exists to support the Qu'ran other than the Qu'ran.

I had a look at the links you gave me and all I saw were interpretations of the Qu'ran. Nothing more than that.

See, this is one of the main reasons people are getting so fed up with the Piscean Age religions. They no longer accept the circular arguments provided by their scholars. Blind faith is not enough anymore. People are now better informed than they used to be. They have greater freedom of information and freedom of choice than previous generations. More and more people are also getting completely fed up with the different religions arguing against each other over who's right and who's wrong, and worse, fighting over it.

Are you in any ways able to see Jeehad that the kind of responses you gave me when I presented contradictions in the Qu'ran are EXACTLY the same as the kind of responses a Christian zealot would give me if I pointed out flaws in the Bible?
It is EXACTLY the same. Same mentality, same blind faith, same complete unwillingness to look outside the box you've placed your beliefs into.

So this is where I come back to the point I've been trying to put across. What makes you, a follower of Islam any different to a follower of Christianity?
Don't go saying because your way is the truth and you can prove it. You can't prove your way is the truth and the Christianity is false any more than Christians can prove their way is the truth and Islam is false. And if the figures Runlola posted are still accurate, then the Christians have the Muslims outnumbered, and isn't that used as a classic argument over who's right and who's wrong?
Well, why not? it's every bit as good as the kind of "logical arguments" you're presenting.

On the Astral Pulse Forum Jeehad, you are dealing with a great many members who have spent their time following one of the major religions, and have walked away from religions because they no longer work for them. These members have learned to think for themselves and learned to find their own personal path to connect with their own Divine truth. People like this are wise to the kind of arguments you're trying to present. You really do need to know that it just doesn't work on people who are capable of independent thought.

[James S]

Talanay,
Aren't you wonderful. I don't know what to say? Wow, but... umm... we're both married and...
Admittedly, it does sound like a lot of fun, and my nipples are getting a little... ahhhh....
Heh.

[Ryuji]

i have an idea. lets combine the bible and the quran (since the basically tell the same story(ies) but differant characters at certian places) in to one book - then we can safe on paper, copy and paste - also allot less contradictions and My Book is right yours is wrong... 

[Paola]

Sometime i get christians coming to my house, or seventh days or something, and i ask if they can discuss God without quoting the bible, and they leave quickly lol.

I just wonder, what good are these mindless parables, in todays world that needs action, not re-action.

Btw , i want my nipple pierced!

[Jelal67]

Btw , i want my nipple pierced!

lol... thats propbably the part that sticks out most in this passage...

Personally, I think it is up to every person to develop their own beliefs on the world. It's pure arrogance to say that one particular group is God's choosen one, are we not all his children?

[James S]

Right it's settled then.
No more messing about, no more arguing about who's right and who's wrong, no more mucking about with misinterpretations.

Paola and I are getting our nipples pierced!

You up for it Talanay?

[Nay]

LOL!  Line 'em up boys! 

[Paola]

A good man requires no laws, a bad man follows no laws,
I have no idea who said that, i think it was some buddhist, probably the same buddhist that said Buddhism can take one to hell.
Just thought id throw that in.

[DebInUSA]

looool Every Scholar nowadays knows that the verse that allegedly allows "wife beating" means to leave! The word Darb has multiple meanings and by understanding the root word of such we know what it truly means. It actually means to reject or leave, Therefore on the basis of "wife beating" God says that if she cheats on you at least twice you are allowed to leave the relationship.

"The Arabic word used in Noble Verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" which means "beat".  The thing with all of the Arabic words that are derived from the word "daraba" is that they don't necessarily mean "hit".  The word "idribuhunna" for instance, could very well mean to "leave" them.  It is exactly like telling someone to "beat it" or "drop it" in English."

Taken directly from an article on the arabic language written by doctor tariq al suaidan. Now is it really a erligions fault for a mans misunderstanding of the religious system?? Can I blame Americans for misunderstanding the role Bush played on the role of Iraq and solely blame the deaths of innocent Iraqis on them? NO I cant... Secondly, Shariah law is actually a democratic system.

"...Do not retain them (i.e., your wives) to harm them...(The Noble Quran, 2:231)"

"If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best; even though men's souls are swayed by greed. But if ye do good and practise self-restraint, God is well-acquainted with all that ye do.  (The Noble Quran, 4:128)"

Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them.  (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"

He who believes in Allah and the Hereafter, if he witnesses any matter he should talk in good terms about it or keep quiet. Act kindly towards woman, for woman is created from a rib, and the most crooked part of the rib is its top. If you attempt to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, its crookedness will remain there. So act kindly towards women.  (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3468)"

"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.  (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"

"And among God's signs is this: He created for you mates from amongst yourselves (males as mates for females and vice versa) that you might find tranquillity and peace in them. And he has put love and kindness among you. Herein surely are signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran 30:21)"   

"Women impure for men impure. And women of purity for men of purity. These are not affected by what people say. For them is forgiveness and an honorable provision. (The Noble Quran 24:26)"


The Islamic empire was a system known as the caliphite which allowed the people to vote for a leader. The system compared to the other systems present at that era seemed very noble in the lights of such an age. Now, shuld we incorporate the laws of the babylonians? The laws of the israelites during exile? The laws of the romans? No, they are past civilizations, they are past laws to rule mankind and seem barbaric in the lights of modern day. But lets be real here..... the Study of an Islamic system and a democratic system are really very similiar. There was a lecture I went to in Toronto on this topic. It stated how the system of sharia law actually is not implemenmted today in society. NO COUNTRY HAS AN ISLAMIC SYSTEM NOT EVEN IRAN!! An Islamic system must have a caliphite which I do not see any of this today. The laws for punishment of execution and jail time is permissible but under certain circumstances. execution must be done after a terrible deed that the person commited such as murder, or possibly rape. Although, YOU MUST BE 100% SURE OF THE INTENTION AND CRIME COMMITED. There are also many rulings which explain such consequetive actions. I'm pretty sure if the western societies governments were more lineant on punishing people instead of offering an easy way out of it would set a good example for people. Look at Saudia Arabia.. although the system is a monarchy(which is against Islamic beliefs) it still offers some views on islamic law. Such as, death if one was to murder... Such as Death as to someone was to rape. The thing I see in such a country is that the rape and murder rate is one of the lowest in the world. It bears witness to the effectievness of such a system.. although, there are some aspects to this system which I think are unislamic and nowhere in the Islamic religion overule such doins. Such as... women not driving cars? The Quran CLEARLY shows that man and women are equal!  So in retrospect, I think all modern politics is corrupt and that the political systems people try and convey are to tehre own humanly desires and not of thd divine... hope I answered your questions.

Hi,

With all due respect, we have no clue what the criminal statistics really are in Saudi Arabia because they are a closed society with the government hiding almost everything bad that takes place. For instance, the Sauds always lied about their statistics on AID's victims, sometimes even claiming to not have any AID's cases at all.  YIKES! No kidding. This is what they had in the CIA Facts Books.  Some other Islamic countries did the very same thing, only they were a little more realistic about the number of cases in their countries.  However, years of denial, also brought on years of ignoring the problem, which caused AID's to become either an epidemic or on the verge of becoming an epidemic in many Islamic countries, which forced them to admit the truth so they could finally do something about it.  We also saw in Egypt not long ago how the men on the streets suddenly started chasing the women and trying to rape them.  We saw this very same thing in Saudi Arabia a few years ago.  Women could walk down the streets where I live in bathing suits and not get attacked by men.  When a government runs the media, etc, in a country, there are many things that are never told. With the Internet in this day and time, though, things are beginning to leak out.  They still are not like the western countries, having all of our dirty laundry hung very high for the world to constantly see.  But there is no difference as far as morals are concerned in any Islamic country today and in any free western country. I have had this conversation with many Muslims who have tried to claim this very same thing and they have gotten barbarded with the truth. The only difference is our dirty laundry is viewed and talked about and they are constantly trying to hide theirs.  This was also brought out when Muslims were making fun of the so-called Christian bishops that molested some children.  A quick google search shows this is a major problem in the Islamic schools. The only difference is that it is probably done much more in the Islamic countries because they still do not protect the victims so the victims are usually either intimidated into keeping their mouths shut, paid off for keeping their mouths shut, or they tell and are made out to be the bad person. And sometimes acid is thrown in their faces for telling as we saw the brave boy from Pakistan being interviewed from his hospital bed and telling all about it.  One school in Pakistan had like 1200 molesting complaints in one year. Also, Islamic countries have immorals that are different from the western free world.  For instance, we saw how the girl's school caught on fire in Saudi Arabia a few years ago and the religious police would not allow the girls to come out of the burning building because they were not properly dressed. I can't recall now how many girls burnt up in that school, but that was definitely a huge embarrassment for the Sauds, and rightly so.
Unfortunately, most of these immoral problems/crimes are universal, but denying that they exist or saying the Islamic countries are somehow more moral for some reason or another, is simply not true.  Through many years of mistakes, we finally learned that cutting off body parts, etc, and much more harsher punishments do not make people behave much better.  It's when society accepts the bad things that makes them much worse. The US and Europe have a lot of crime because we have had a whole lot of illegal immigrants coming into our countries. Most of them come with little to nothing.
I have talked with a whole lot of Muslims on this subject of being allowed to beat their wives and this is the very first time I have heard this one about interpreting it wrong.  All of the Muslims I have talked to say this is used as a last resort and you are only to hit them lightly without making any marks. So they admit that it is true.  Well, I hope they do come to the conclusion that it isn't interpreted correctly.  However, the Muslims I have talked to about it speak both English and Arabic and, obviously, they have always interpreted this to mean you are allowed to hit your wife.  Also, I have always read and I have always been told that the Caliphate is appointed by a certain group...like a council, and were never voted on by the people themselves. And the way I understand it, Islam can never divide religion and government.  You cannot have a true free, peaceful, Democratic country without separating religion and government and without having a free media. The western free Democracies did not just dream all of these things up overnight. All of these ideas were based on many years of mistakes/failures/wrongdoings, and seperating religion from the government was one of their main themes. There is no way in the world anyone can have a religion as a country's religion and not have the minorities treated very unfairly and badly. If the government doesn't treat them badly, the people will. It's just human nature, and minorities were and are definitely treated very badly in most Islamic countries. There's always going to be someone treat the minorities bad if you make any group superior. Anytime throughout the history of the world that someone is made more superior in a country to others, it has been a disaster.  Christians fought for many years because no one interprets any religious book in exactly the same way, therefore, you cannot make one group more superior to others and expect there to be peace and fairness. In fact, in looking at the Muslim world today, it looks much like the way the Christian western world used to be. Muslims have already made these very same mistakes. If they would take a good, honest look at their history, they would see that the Muslim world wasn't much different most of the time than the way we see it today.  There were always other groups taking down others and many assassinations and wars going on in one place or another. The Muslim countries almost always end up with dictators because being ruled under dictators who rule with an iron fist is the only way to keep them from fighting one another for the power, just as it used to be in the Christian world.  Also, Islam's leaders are given power for way too long a period of time, making it easy for their leaders to take over the country's army and, thus, turning into a dictatorship.  I have seen Muslims trying to say they had the first Democracy, but they were very far from having a Democracy as we do today. I've even seen where some Muslims are trying to say America's founding fathers used Islam's system as some kind of an example. Then I have seen where some Muslims are trying to say that Muslims were in America first. Then I've seen some saying that Americans brought some Muslims over for slaves and that Islam helped shape America. The story gets bigger and bigger as time goes on.  Before we know it, they will be saying that Muslims were with our founding fathers and told them how to write the constitution.  I am sorry, but there is a reason why Muslims' history is the most controversial history in the world. Many Muslims rewrite their history, as well as everyone else's.  I'm not sure why they have such a hard time admitting to their failures/mistakes/wrongdoings, but they do. The rest of the world admits to all of their failures/mistakes/wrongdoings.  If you can't admit to them, you can't learn from them and will continue to repeat them over and over again, which is what we see Muslims in the Muslim world doing today.

[Jelal67]

/quote]

Meh, why not me too... lol, actually I have a really cool idea about a tattoo. Starting at my lower back/upper buttocks it would be tree roots that joined together into a trunk going up my spine, and in each please my corrisponding chakra embedded in the trunk... as it reaches its top, it'll branch out into two angel wings going back down my back... all of it being in a grey mettalic color except for the chakras...

[DH]

Hi,
With all due respect, we have no clue what the criminal statistics really are in Saudi Arabia because they are a closed society with the government hiding almost everything bad that takes place. For instance, the Sauds always lied about their statistics on AID's victims, sometimes even claiming to not have any AID's cases at all.  YIKES! No kidding. This is what they had in the CIA Facts Books.........

Fanatics of any stripe cannot bear the truth and will do anything, including re-writing history, to suppress the truth.  We've seen it over the centuries with fanatical religious sects, whether they be Christians or Muslims or otherwise; and we've seen it with fanatical political groups, such as Nazis and Communists.  In the good ole US of A we've seen it in the past with the attempt to wipe out the Native American perspective things on things, and most recently we've seen it from some in their attempt to eliminate the spiritual/religious influences on our country from history books in public schools.

I appreciate the reminder, Deb.  Fanatics come in all forms, and whoever wins gets to control the PR spin and write the history books.  DH

[Mustardseed]

Dear Posters

Just a last post before I start my trip. I see that Jeehad is still at it  and surprise surprise James actually took time to make some observations. Most of the points you brought up I have allready tried to bring up as well but used to and probably you will only get met with a virtual barrage of cut and pasted speeches transcripts and quotations..........it really seems that the old saying is true

You can take the monkey out of the tree but you cannot make him drop thye bananas.   

I think thats how it goes. It does in honestly seem like a very futile job to attempt to argue Islam with a committed Muslim. Just like arguing Christianity with a Christian or arguing American forign politics with Rush Limbaugh. All you will get is words words words.........

All the best to you all.

Regards Mustardseed

PS wish me well I am scared

[Nay]

Well wishes MS!  I will say a prayer nightly.    Pictures would be nice.

[Mustardseed]

Would love to post some but.........I forgot how I do that. Can anyone help me remember. I made it over safe, and had some amazing experiences. Heard voices, faces a force 10 storm for 10 days, and hit a whale. ha eventful to say the least.

Regards Mustardseed

[Mydral]

Would love to post some but.........I forgot how I do that. Can anyone help me remember. I made it over safe, and had some amazing experiences. Heard voices, faces a force 10 storm for 10 days, and hit a whale. ha eventful to say the least.

Regards Mustardseed

Whoa...... cool haha. Sorry for my childish outburst but thats pretty amazing hehe. Hitting a whale... now how does one do that lol. I get this picture of you beeing after Moby willy haha