The End of Days?

[Narrow Path]

The Holy Spirit will lift the limit of sin and atrocities that are allowed in the apocalypse. The evil in the hearts of men will be able to manifest itself fully. Those that are not in the protection of the Spirit will give in too these true natures.

That is my understanding of the apocalypse.

[Logic]

The band tool stopped producing albums, because according to their universal beliefs, the world is going to end at the comming of the new year. The ancient Mayan civilization predicted a great change in the earths magnetic field, and alignment in the galaxy, about 3000 years ago, their calender ran from roughly early/mid 3000bc to 2012 21st of December, when a cycle of time was supposed to end. Nostradamus (spelling?) prophecised that the world would end in 1999, correct me if im wrong. There are many different beliefs to the end of days.

[Logic]

or you know, nothing could happen for about.. 100,000,000,000,000,000 years and all matter in the universe would distablize, following the destabilization of gravity another 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 years later or so.

[Gandalf]

I always think that this strange pre-occupation with 'end time scenarios' is a purely american obsession, and doesnt seem to be of great interest here in Europe.

I think here in Europe christian apocalyptic mythology, is seen as just that..mythology. Also, christianity is seen in more general terms as just one of many religious systems along with other philosophies.

However, it seems that in the US, many people seem to assume that judgement day etc is fact. I assume that this is due to the fact that the majority of the population are only exposed to one belief system...christianity, and many take everything in the bible as written in stone. The end of the world scenarios are assumed to be an event which WILL happen.

I agree however, that other systems have 'end time scenarios' but they are often quite different from the horrific vision of christian mythology. The Mayan system for example, sees more of a shift in awareness, not widespread destruction like christians do.

Also, I take issue with those christian writers who attempt to prove that the end times are now (as beth says, EVERY succeeding generation thinks IT is in the end times!), justifying this by stating that there are more wars now than in the past. In fact, if you check your history.. world history, you'll find that wars are just as common now as they always were, only now the weapons are bigger. However, I think humanity passed the biggest test of its history in the 20th century.. the nuke test, and we made it.

The cold war was far more serious than any percieved terrorist threat that the US & UK media hype on a constant basis. In fact, most countires in the world have lived with various forms of terrorism for many years.. the difference is that the US has finaly joined the rest of the world, It is hardly 'the end of the world', rather the world just IS.

Regards,
Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Thanks Beth. Well first I just want to mention that my view on this is based on what I have found in the Bible. It is therefore hard to discuss on the basis of logic and so forth. If one does, as I do, take the word of the Bible as the inspired Word of God, what one reads in it has to be taken into account and then there are some major events that are supposed to happen . The main 3 I would say are that Jesus was prophesied to come , he came died for the sins of mankind and rose again and He is to return in what is called "the second Coming". It is this return that is supposed to happen in the last days and becourse Jesus spoke in detail of his return and the events imidiately preceeding it, Christians have tried to figure the timings out ever since that day by looking at the events that happen around us and see if they match.

So....First I would agree with you that every generation seems to have thought that theirs was the last. Certainly it seems obvious that the diciples and Paul specifically thought it was going to happen in their day. Since it has not happened yet, the question remains when.

In Matthew 24 Jesus was asked by the diciples."tell us tell us what shall be the sign og your coming and the end of the world"

Jesus answered:"you will hear of wars and rumours of wars, for nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom and there shall be earthquakes in various places . All these things are the beginning of sorrows"

Now obviously we have had wars plaques and earthquakes for thousands of years however you might be surprised to learn how the severity and frequency of all these things have radically increased. No period in all history has witnessed the escalation of war as the 20th century. The International Red Cross estimates that over 100 million people have been killed in wars since this century began. (statistics from 1997) Prior to 1914 war had never been universal, but in WW1 & 2 global war was waged for the first time. In the second WW 93 million people served in the armed forces on oboth sides. 25 million died. Civilian casualties were unpresedented, in the Soviet Union alone over 20 million died. since WW2 there have been over 150 major wars, and they keep happening, as well as hundreds of smaller conflicts, armed rebellions and revolutions. The death toll of armed conflicts since WW2 is 23million (1997). the UN high commission for refugees reported atrocities and persecutions occured from war to be 50 million in 1995 alone. I could go on and on with tribal terror, ethnic cleansing, which incidentally may be more correct as the word in Greek for nation originally used in this prophecy is "ethnos" more accurately translated a race or tribe. We're talking here about stuff like Stalin's purges, Chinas cultural revolution, Hitler's campaign, Cambodias Killing fields, Bosnia, Rwanda. In this most civilized century, the killing rage extinguished 170 million lives, and we even coined the term genocide. I would say that we could say this has been "fulfilled", what do you think. I researched all these numbers in the world almanac, they seem to be correct.  If you are interested I can cover the other prophesies that seem to have been fulfilled as well but I am a bit hesitant as I do not want to get into a "ramming the Bible down your throat "kind of thing.

Regards Mustardseed

[Logic]

There are ofcourse still tens of thousands of nuclear warheads still in operation, not to mention americas hundreds of armed, hidden nuclear submarines patroling every ocean and sea. Russia and America still posses the greatest nuclear presence, but the threat comes from smaller countries like Isreal, engaging in religious wars, or perhaps the 'war' on terrorism, while Imperialistic America gobbles up all the resouce colonies it can for fueling its country and purpose.

There are hundreds of guides on the internet on how to make low and high yield nuclear warheads that fit into suitcases, and when it really comes down to it, its alot easier to get weapons grade plutonium than you think. Almost anyone with half a brain can create a weapon and blow the excrement out of a government building lobby, let alone a city block / city.

Nuclear weapons are still in existance and still in production and trade. How exactly have we 'passed' the nuke test when were not progressing anywhere, infact, things have become much worse.

With the discovery of anti-matter, weapons of mass destruction have only become more horrific. Unknown to most of the public, anti-matter when in contact with matter creates a horrendus release of energy and radiation which makes atom bombs look like firecrackers. Take a trip to the CERN factory in sweden and maybe you can pick up a gram of antimatter for yourself for say, ohh.. about $17 trillion.

[James S]

Well, if it's not through war, pole shift or rogue comet, the earth will be destroyed in a couple of hundred million years when our sun goes supernova. Can't escape that. In the mean time I'm still planning on taking a trip up north to see my parents at Christmas.[]

I heard a sermon back in the early 90s given by a nutbag pentecostal pastor that had done all the research and had all the facts, and according to the bible Jesus was going to come back and the world was going to end in 2000. Guess someone forgot to tell Jesus, or he's been stuck in traffic or something.

So many different interpretations of so many different prophesies, prophesies that I tend to think not even the prophets themselves understood. Just say the Apostle Paul was given a vision of the 20th/21st century. How on earth would he even begin to describe some of what he saw - cars, planes, skyscrapers, computers - things that he would have absolutely no basis of reference to understand them with. So he tries to describe them in terms he understands, and then a couple of thousand years later we try to interpret handed down info that roughly describes what he thought he saw.

Does anybody see any problems with this so far?

Well, that's at least the way I see these end times prophesies.
James.

[Logic]

Our sun dosent have enough mass to supernova, it will only expand into a red giant in about 100 million years, so thats one less thing to worry about. Unless you dont mind being boiled alive by the evaporating oceans.

[Gandalf]

Nuclear weapons are still in existance and still in production and trade. How exactly have we 'passed' the nuke test when were not progressing anywhere, infact, things have become much worse
-----------------------------

I know what your saying Logic, but I still feel that the biggest nuclear threat and the nearest we came to global nuclear extinction came in the 20th century. Remember the Cuban missile Crisis in 1962? the world was one step away from global nuclear war. People have short memories. If you ask anyone who actually lived through those years, or those from further back who lived through WW2, you will find that any perceived terrorist threat today (which in relative terms to a global nuclear war or WW2 scenario is a quite localised event) tends to pale in significance.
Any localised nuclear event, like Israel going on a bender, as you describe, while still awful to contemplate, does still not equate with a global thermo-nuclear war and resulting extinction or near extinction of humanity aka Cold War Nightmare, such as was a very likely threat during the cold war.

I agree that there is still a threat from localised nuclear threats among others, but it is unlikely IMO that Russia and America will start lobbing ICBMs at eacth other now that the cold war is over.

Douglas

[Logic]

IMHO, I think the greatest threat comes from Isreal, or N Korea. All it takes is one nuke to start WWIII, like in The Sum of all Fears, but with a less happy ending. I cant really say anything about the cuban missle crisis because I was only a figment of some ones imagination at the time. I dont think russia and america would be stupid enough to deliberatly start a war against eachother, but I believe that a war will come from a smaller country.

[Passionate-fool]

I'd be interested in what you have to say Mustardseed.

I always love hearing what people think of end times.

[Mustardseed]

The issue with me is that I will first have to find out what the parameters are for the end time, as Jesus told His diciples what they would look like and what would be  happening and this is what I read in Matthew 24. Read it and see for yourselves. If you wish I can include it in the message here.

[False Prophet]

Yes the apocalypse is upon us. Look inside yourself to find the Gnosis or Divine Spark that will see us through to the Lord of Darkness. Reject the book known as the bible for truth in prophecy and in turn realize the true power of magick and individual conquest. If you are allied with the system of religion you will fall beneath the power of the Dark.

Prepare for the apocalypse and find your true self inside.

[Mustardseed]

HHmmm ............Ehhh Ok thanks will do.[]Who was that was the Lord of Darkness or what. Oh I forget!!

[WalkerInTheWoods]

President Bush (current) wants to use Nuclear weapons in his war on terrorism. These will go off underground, which to the uneducated person sounds ok, because they tell you that all the radiation will be contained in the ground. But many, if not most, people with knowledge in this field disagree and think the fall out will be much worse than having it explode in the air like those in Japan. So no, I do not think that the nuclear test is over. As long as there are nuclear weapons there is always a threat, especially when you have people in power that want to use them.

Jesus said that NO ONE will know the time when this will take place. So why are some many people trying to figure out the time when Jesus said no one will know?

[Anonymous]

I concur fallnangel.  Anyone who has read the Bible should always keep that thought in mind when reading Revelations.

[Beth]

The End of Days?

Hello everyone! – Discussions of nuclear armaments aside, here is MY take on this concept.  My interpretation is two-fold: One is personal and one is global.

From my metaphorical reading of the apocalyptic scriptures (canonical and non-canonical,) and then trying to understand their highly cryptic messages, I have thus applied them to my own life. In doing so, I realized that I have experienced "The End of Days" many times in my life.  I will explain.  

For me, whenever I progress to a new level in my spiritual awareness, my life is forever changed.  There is no way that I can go back to seeing the world the way I did previous to the advance.  In essence, the moment of epiphany or the period during which I am experiencing a leap of consciousness, marks the "End of Days" as I have known them.  These periods are oftentimes very disturbing, full of unanswered new questions, both of which are challenging me to discard old beliefs for new incoming understandings and ways of living.  Many of these times have been very painful. Sometimes this was the loss of loved ones that I had been attached to for many years; in relationships that no longer served my spiritual progression.  These people have been blood relatives, spouses, and friends. Most often this has come in the form of a parting of ways, which are "emotional and psychological deaths," but sometimes it came through physical death.  These losses can be very shattering experiences. But I always found in hindsight that this was always best—for either them or me—and perhaps for both. This same thing also applies to job losses, accidents, physical illnesses, and depressive episodes. In essence, I have lived through many "End of Days" and they are not over yet.  This is my personal application of this epic message.
 
Where do I get this?  In the biblical epic, metaphor and allegory are heavily used when writing of the "End of Days."  In Hebrew, "Jerusalem" means "City of Peace."  As a person, as an individual, I am a "city" unto myself.  "My city" is where I live, where I do my spiritual work, and where I must make my way as best as I can.  "My city" has psychological "walls" to protect it, "roads" of "knowing" to help me navigate through life, and even an "inner sanctuary" in the center of my city that acts as my temple, a place where I go to make most of my better decisions and reflect upon the future and purpose of my city.  "Other people" also inhabit my city.  I have "a wife" which acts as my intuition; I have a "husband" which is my "reasoning capability"; I also have "passions" that act as prostitutes, "prison guards" that inhibit my growth, and even "rulers" that govern my attitudes and behaviors. These governors are my "conscience" and they "punish" me when I have strayed.  When I am content, I can truly say that I live in a "City of Peace."  When I am offered advancement however, "My City of Peace" is attacked, brutally sometimes, and ultimately destroyed.  And yes, "death" of "what these people represent" occurs around and within me. But with all destruction there is new building, the raising of a New City and with every new city there are new marvels to discover.  (Many of us have experienced these kinds of marvels through our consciousness expanding experiences and in our contact with the Astral Realm.) Each time I build a "NEW JERUSALEM" I am building a "New City of Peace" within myself.  

So to me, when a person steps onto and makes the conscious/free will decision to walk their spiritual path—no matter what it requires of us—there are many "Ends of Days."  When I have "walked through the fires of my judgment" through my own personal "purgatory" time and time again, answers to old troubling questions have always been answered. More often than not, this takes "time."  But, in time, I always come out a better person, a more loving person, and a more spiritually aware person.  With every spiritual advancement new and more perplexing questions have arisen that I am sure will be answered in the same way. I think that to "stop" at any one junction and settle into any dogma that would cause me to cease in my spiritual growth, would truly be Hell—a perpetual Hell.  I hope that as long as I am in this body that I will continue to progress along my path, even if I must continually experience the pains of each of my "End of Days."  

In NT terms this is found with Jesus, but also with Paul.  As I have stated elsewhere, Paul and his contemporaries were expecting and yes hoping, for Christ to return any minute, any day, or any week.  Paul's life, as depicted in his letters shows of many trials, tests, and the ultimate overcoming of those trials.  When you look at all of this in a different context, I am sure that Christ did return, every minute, every day, and every week as individual people experienced their own spiritual progress.  As a group, these earliest Christians were jointly experiencing an "End of Days" as well, where old ideas were being left behind and new growth was taking place.  Individually and together, these people were striving for a better life and a better world. This brings us to a global application of "The End of Days."  

On a larger scale, this process is much slower, because it must take the status of all people into consideration.  Metaphorically, Jerusalem can also represent the "physical world" – the world that all of us share. Globally, history shows us many such "Ends of Days" where power exchanged hands, territories expanded and broke apart, oftentimes at great expense to the people.  But in this, "great leaps in consciousness" have also been made, where old ideas were discarded and left behind, making room for new experiences and new ways of understanding.  These periodic "End of Days" have helped us all to progress as a world people.  

For one example, the western idea that the earth was at the center of the universe was very ingrained in people's view of reality.  Imagine what it would have been like to have a belief like that taken away!  Since then, look how far we have come and how much broader our view of reality is—and yet—many do not "believe" that there is life anywhere else in the universe.  Global progress takes time.  In this process, we still have a long way to go however, for in many ways we are stuck.  We still live with tyranny, both political and religious.  We still have wars, weapons of mass destruction, mass hunger and mass disease.  As a global society we have, so far anyway, failed in the tests of some of the most simple of all spiritual lessons: we have failed to "Love one another, as each of us wants to be loved"; we have failed to see where "we reap what we sow"; and, we have failed to seek those things that are the most important. As found in Matthew 6:19-21, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."  

My treasures are all of the precious lessons that I have learned while I have built, destroyed and rebuilt, my ever-new "Personal City of Jerusalem."  As a global society, I have to wonder what our treasures are now and what they will be in the future.  

So, may we all continue to experience apocalyptic times in our lives and as a global society may we learn our lessons as quickly as possible.  

Peace,
Beth

[Gandalf]

Hi Beth,
I completely agree with your way of interpreting these bible passages.
IMO the bible contains much useful metaphorical information for more spiritually inclined people to make use of, while the great majority take it at face value.
I believe this is where all the problems lie, as the great majority tend to read the bible in a literal fashion, leading to all kinds of problems and arguments of exact wordings etc.

It is this literal interpretation that has lead to obsessions with 'end time scenarios'.
Now, you might say 'who cares?'.
Well, the worry is that if you have someone obsessed with apocalyptic mythology, they may try to have a hand in bringing it on themselves, effectivly producing a self fulfiling prophesy.
Now, apply that on a state level and you have extreme danger.
Israel, the US, some fundamental islamic groups and so on are all guilty of this to a greater or lesser extent.

Douglas

[Anonymous]

I agree completely.  Although all these self-fulfilling prophecies are also quite needed in the process of growth.  If you look back in history, every city that is destroyed a greater city is built (somewhere else in the world) that is grander.  This also goes along with the spirituality that Beth was speaking of.  Strife makes people grow inside.  So, whenever WWIII comes along I'm sure we will grow even more.  Life is a puzzle and all pieces, no matter how oddly shaped, have a place in its completion.

[False Prophet]

Holy man open up your eyes
To the ways of the world you've been so blind
As the walls of religion come crashing down
How's the ignorance taste the second time around

Tell me how it feels knowing chaos will never end
Tell me what it's like when the celebration begins

Welcome to the horror of the revelation
Tell me what you think of your savior now
I reject all the biblical views of the truth
Dismiss it as the folklore of the times
I won't be force fed prophecies
From a book of untruths for the weakest mind
Join the new faith for the celebration
Cult of new faith fuels the devastation

Holy man come and worship me
I am all that you ever wanted to be
I'm the life of indulgence you never knew
The epitome of evil shining through

Tell me how it feels knowing chaos will never end
Tell me what it's like when the celebration begins

Welcome to the horror of the revelation
Tell me what you think of your savior now
I reject all the biblical views of the truth
Dismiss it as the folklore of the times
I won't be force fed prophecies
From a book of untruths for the weakest mind
I keep the bible in a pool of blood
So that none of its lies can affect me

This is new faith
A different way of life
Witness the shame
See for yourself the lies
I'll take the fight
Bring it every time, any time
Refuse to let them win
My heresy begins

Pray for life - wish for death
Pray for life - know in time you'll pray for death

Tear it away
It lives inside your mind
Silence the fear
That keeps you pure inside
Now you can see
Life's atrocities endlessly
Witness the miracle
Witness the miracle

Pray for life - wish for death
Pray for life - with every breath
You'll pray for death - you'll pray for death
Embrace new faith, embrace new faith
Yeah, new faith - yeah, new faith.

[exothen]

When the Bible speaks of the end times and all that will happen, there is nothing to indicate that it is speaking metaphorically, that is, in terms of the events that will happen (even science tells us this much). Much of what the Bible states about the condition of the world as the end draws near is very much a reality in today's world, so to spiritualize those words and find some hidden meaning is to completely miss what the Bible is saying and warning against.

As for anyone who says they know exactly when the end will come, don't listen to them as Jesus made it clear that no one knows even the hour, much less the day, month or year.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by exothen

 Much of what the Bible states about the condition of the world as the end draws near is very much a reality in today's world, so to spiritualize those words and find some hidden meaning is to completely miss what the Bible is saying and warning against.

The Bible is a spiritual text, so why would you not spiritualize the words in it?

[Gandalf]

bible thumpers almost always see the contents of the bible in an absolute literal fashion.. it comes with the territory!

'for it says in the 'good' book that all ye sinners shall burn!' etc etc!

To be honest, I really don't see how any of the members of this forum, or anyone serously interested in spiritual growth can take everything in the bible, or any mainstream religious text as 'gospal', esp once you start exploring the astral realms for yourself, where you really begin to see through the human construction that is 'organised religion'.

Douglas
However, if some people find comfort in it then it serves a purpose, unfortunatly though, some use it as a club to bash others over the head with, or even better, give them the *divine right* to bash others over the head.

Douglas

[exothen]

That's nice Gandalf. Anything interesting to add to the topic?

fallnangel77,

quote:The Bible is a spiritual text, so why would you not spiritualize the words in it?

The Bible is a text about spiritual matters, yes, but that doesn't mean that there are hidden spiritual meanings behind the text. The Bible is the story of God's creation of man, man's fall from relationship with God, and God's subsequent chasing after man, resulting in Christ's death and resurrection so man can be permanently reconciled back to God.

The gospels are obviously the story of Jesus's early life and later ministry.  The rest of the NT is about the beginnings of the Christian Church and dealt with real issues within real churches. The apocalyptic literature speaks of actual things that will happen, some of which has happened and is happening at this point in time. And you have to remember that some of it was written around 2500 years ago and none later than 1900 years ago. There is no hidden meaning behind the apocalyptic text; there is nothing in text to even remotely suggest anything other than literal events.

[Anonymous]

First, False Prophet, who was the band that sang that song.  I can't remember.

Finally, about the sinners burning in hell.  Have you ever read that part in the Bible where it says that the people who you suspect will go to heaven won't and those who you think will not go to heaven will (paraphrased of course).  Pretty weird huh.  All of that kind of falls into that predestinded issue where some religions believe that all souls going to heaven were already chosen even before birth and that no matter how bad or good you are you are going to where ever you were predestined to go *preacher packing his bags looks up and says, "Ahh, hell"*