The Neverending Thread (was SATAN DECEIVES YOU)

[LA FORET MAUVE]

pfff...it's getting more and more ridiculous...

Any moderator here ?

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

Firstly, thank you Mustardseed for your thoughtful and intelligent post. I agree with just about everything you say. The essence of a true christian, or a person of any religion for that matter, does not flow from the dusty pages of books, but from faith and spiritual action, and from living one's life according to these beliefs.

My earlier post was to throw light upon the fact that nothing in the bible can be historically or scientifically supported; not one shred of it. This indicates that the events shown in the bible are most likely fabricated. Now, I agree that the bible is a work of genious containing great spiritual truths. But if the stories and events in the bible are fabricated, what does this tell us?

My thought is that the whole bible is like a parable, eg, a work of fiction designed to teach spiritual truths. But, if one examines the gnostic gospels (all the testaments that were discarded when the bible was put together), it is also apparent that the bible was designed to suppress freedom of thought, and to brainwash the masses so they are easier to control, eg, its formation was politically motivated to some extent.

And if you look at fundamental christian ideals, as have often been stated here, they sound very much like cult propaganda, eg, based on fanatical blind faith, blackmailing people through fear of everlasting punishment to tow the line, etc. But this is understandable as christianity did start out as a cult.

If, as has been claimed, the bible is the actual word of God, written by men inspired directly by God, then is it not reasonable to ask why the bible was not written in a more historically accurate manner? Its easy to say that men are fallible and that they may have made human mistakes while transcribing the bible, but this does not explain the gross historical errors and widespread contradictions that permeate the bible. If God truly inspired the bible and guided its creation, then why is it such a historical and factual mess?

Clues to the answers to some of these questions can be found by studying 3rd century christianity, where everything christian began.  A good place to start would be to read the works of 'Origen' (Origin the man -- there would be no bible or christianity if not for Origin). This book is freely available from the public library. The gnostic gospels are also worth reading, as are the dead sea sea scrolls.

Now I am sure that the zealots among us will quickly trash my words and call me heretic, saying I should ignore all the evidence and just have faith.  But I am in good company, if you count all past scientists and thinkers who have been branded same for disproving popularly accepted beliefs.

Thank goodness that the young christian zealots among us have no power in this world. They would quickly burn all our books and we'd soon find ourselves reverting to 'flat earth' theory and other such base assumptions. Most of us here would be tortured to repent and then burned at the stake. The inquisition would reappear. And then we would have another great dark age of global stagnation, as the world slowly falls into ignorance and war after war until nothing is left. Would this be an ideal christian world, where heretics are burned at the stake for wrong thinking or suspicion of same, or just for being different? This is why democratic governments of today are designed to protect the people from the church.

The point in my above statments is to shed some light on the nature of the arguments and evidence given in this thread, from the christian side, which comes mainly from bible text.  Now, this is not as simple as it sounds, as every christian sect interprets the bible differently.  So given all the above, where does that leave us?  Absolutely nowhere, my friends.  The truth cannot be interpreted from bible text as not even christians can agree on this.  The truth can only be found through life, through living one's life, and through thinking and reasoning.

None of the above is intended as insult; just a presentation of some facts and thoughts, with a little healthy conjecture thrown in for good measure. Faith is a wonderful thing, but the faith of any person is unique and personal by nature, depending on one's life experience.  In my opinion, faith is taken too far when it is used as proof to criticise others, faith or the lack of faith, for the whole truth cannot be shown or told, only lived.

And lastly, as for saying that the proof can be found by living according to the bible, this is ridiculous!  No one actually lives according to the whole word of the bible. They take bits and pieces and ignore the rest. For example, who among us would actually stone our own children to death just because they are lazy and don't listen to us?  This describes most children today! It would be a crazy world if people tried, and everyone would do it differently because everyone interprets bible text differently.

But, and there's always a but in my dictionary, following the spiritual ideals of the bible, or the koran, or any other holy book for that matter, will most assuredly help one to live in spiritual peace and quietude.

In closing, I say that the real truth in the bible is written between the lines, and that no matter what religion one follows, all are looking in the same direction and aspiring to the same goals.

Do not give in to baseless spiritual blackmail!

Food for thought....


Take care, Robert.

[James S]

Robert,

Only got two words in response to that...BLOODY BRILLIANT!!!

OK Allanon - you're going to want to rip apart Roberts post I just know it. After all, what does he know right?

Lets see you do it speaking as a real person - that is, let's hear your own thoughts, you're own words and reasonings. Not as some machine that's programmed to respond to all statements in the one same tired old manner, because I'll tell you now - after all the warnings you've had -

I'll delete any scriptures you put in to your post or any over-used "Jesus Christ is the Only Way" or "You are being decieved by Satan" quotes,

and I'm not going to do it just to turn your screw or repress freedom of speech or any of that guff. I'm going to do it just to see if we can keep you thinking for yourself instead of coming across like some brainwiped zombie.

Kind regards,
James.

[LA FORET MAUVE]

Phew, thank you Bruce and James...

[Mustardseed]

Dear Robert
Firstly I feel quite inferior about my explanations as english is not my first language . Ha I will attempt to answer you anyway. Your post is very complicated and I had to read it several times to even understand parts of it, but I think I have it somewhat sorted out. If I can restate it in a simplified form , please bear with me.

You conclude that since there is no Proof that the Bible is historically correct it is then a fabrication! A falsehood and must by nessety be constructed to lead and control the masses.

Well that would ofcourse be a possibility. However it could also be that since Jesus day many people started to write about the times they had with him. Many recounted experiences and in the end it became overwhelming. At the counsel where someone (was it Konstantine?) desided that they had to have a core. The faith in Jesus and his teaching had to be cleansed from falsehoods and over eccagerations. After really praying and seeking God for his counsel they decided that certain stories and accounts were consistant with each other and maybe God led them to select the right ones which then became the Bible as we know it. We are here talking about the new testament. This then accended through the ages. Is this a possibility. ??

You see, for me you seem to be assuming a negative conspiracy rather that openmindedly considering other possibilities! That these folks maybe really loved the Truth and as yourself, and were honest good men led by God. The Bible has been a great source of inspiration and help to millions of people you do not see in this Forum, is that worth anything?. Maybe you do not believe it and maybe you chose otherwise but just becourse you choose to bellieve differently does not make other choices falsehoods. In the question of faith we are all like little babies scrappeling over toys on the floor.

Regarding the fundementalist I agree with you 100% . They have become the Jews of this age who through the LAW they see will crucify anyone who challenge their beliefs. Quite horrible really, but that is people in a nutshell, not the Bible or God. You might have a hammer that could be used to build a house , but if someone uses it as a weapon to kill someone , that does not make it an battle axe!! Many of the people that adhere to your views maybe even on this board show the same hatred and indulge in similar actions I would call them Fundementalist Gnostics and use downright rude and offensive behaviour, but I would think it to be unfair to blame that on you and the things you have taught, or this forum!! That is their intrepretations and how they use your words. (not a good example but I will let that go...Ha)

In my view Gods Spirit is a moving never static always changing moving effectuating changes in every sphere of life, he himself is not changing at all he is LOVE and whatsoever is done in LOVE is pleasing to him. I would also say to you that it is indeed possible to live by the Bible. Jesus was at one point approched by a Lawer (maybe not unlike yourself) atlest someone pretty clever who it says wanted to trap him. He asked

"Master which is the greatest Commandment in the Law". Jesus said "you must Love God with all your heart spirit and Mind this is the first and greatest commandment and the second in like unto it You must love your neighbour as yourself On these two commandments hang the all the law and the prophets"

This is the essence of the Bible Love God and love others. So if you love someone you will not beat him up with your words you wont steal his wife or cheat him in buissnes you also wont give him / her the hong Kong flue by kissing Him/her on the mouth while you are sick. This commandment is the Spirit of it all (among many Christians called the Golden Law)and indeed both worth living after, and possible to live after. And if you fail to live by it, as we all do at times Jesus will say "oops you fell , upsadaisy, try again you can do it I have faith in you" and then with faith in his faith in you ,you try again you live and learn and maybe just maybe you sometimes get a glimse of His plan.

I think that you have been given great insight , as well a very good mind , and I believe He is inspirieng you!! What you call the overself and what saved you at that terrible experience,in the outback, I believe to be His spirit. That arrow in the cloud and the faith in your heart. I think he loves his children (and that is everyone) so much that he has sent them someone to help them battle these dark forces on their own, since they have been scared away from him, and his safe fold by fundementalists like Allannon and others. Someone to help them in their darkest hour and a little bitty spring in the desert. However I do not believe you are the source of truth and have all the answers. Another story from the bible is about Nicodemus asking Jesus " You say we should be born again how can a man be born again can he  enter the second time into his mothers belly" Jesus said "You must be born of the flesh and of the Spirit for what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit,Nicodemus, You are not far from the Kingdom"

I realise that it is a bit condecending, but also recall that when I first sent you an email privately and wanted to ask you questions and share notes you sent me a article about how Buddists have been scientifically proven to have more peace of mind than people in general. I did not solicit information about Buddhists either, so maybe we can call it even now Ha.

Lots of love and the best regards Mustardseed

[no_leaf_clover]

Mustardseed -

RB simply said there is no evidence that anything mentioned in the Bible actually happened. You can slap an infinite number of 'possibilities' on it, but the fact still remains that nothing from the Bible can be backed up by anything ever found in archaeology.

[Mustardseed]

Well ok maybe I got carried away from the subject at hand, so let us focus on that. I find it very funny (like HaHa funny)that you Robert and no leaf clover are asking for proof from me, which I stated I did not have and also NEVER CLAIMED TO HAVE .I merely put forth my thoughts of HOW it could be true. As far as I understand there is likewise no proof for the existance of the astral world!!!Except in the shared experiences of folks who have OBEs. I find it hypocritical that you will ask for proof of the validity of the Bible, and discount that it "could" have happened the way I explained. While at the same time expecting people to believe some of the farfetches theories that you and others have thrown out in this forum. So instead I would challenge you to prove to me without a doubt that the above scenario is false, (and while you are at it please include the proof of OBEs Reincarnation, spirit guides, aliens and the astral dimension)I would like to remind you that in the real world you are innocent until proven guilty. Not guilty till proven innocent.As far as I know exact science is limited. History books are often written by the ones who won the war, and very subjective, and I can only say like the old lady said to the atheist who told her the creation never happened "oh really so tell me young man WAS YOU THERE"!!Proof and science and I might add History really is subjective and limited to the knowledge at hand. The methods and the books, and lets face it none of us WAS THERE.  

Anyway for the sake of it I will do some research and ask a few scholars that I am in contact with and will get back to that.

Another thought for you to reflect on Robert It seemed very obvious to me and you indicated that when you wrote Astral Dynamics you purposfully stayed away from termenology that indicated eastern connections, and that helped me greatly. I am a product of my faith and it helped me. Your book was very helpful to me . I could have assumed that there was a conspiracy there. That you were hiding your real beliefs true connection and were sugarcoating them so to speak, in an effort to lead me astray!! I chose to believe you were trying to lovingly speak my language and translate and help me. Is it possible that you might be the one who has a negative blockage against Christianity and the Bible, and Christians in general so you automaticly get on the defence at the mention of our faith and thereby fails to include Christians as equal, seekers of the truth. I understand that people get this attitude (if someone has it) and maybe it is collectivly as Christians our own fault. But try to come over on my side and help me prove my point. How could it have happened? How could the Bible be true how could Jesus have existed. Is my assumptions even a possibility. I am not afraid to ask questions and challenge my accumulated lifeexperience, are you. That question goes for all of you  I guess. Where is your loyalty to the truth or to what you have chosen as YOUR TRUTH, I believe our loyalty should not be given to an Idea a group, a church or a forum or a person .It should be to the TRUTH!!

regards Mustardseed

[exothen]

Hello all, I'm new here, but I'm just going to jump in swinging anyway.[]

Robert,

quote:I say again, there is 'no' historical proof to support what is in the bible. The only thing that supports the bible is the bible itself. This is fact, provable, etc....My earlier post was to throw light upon the fact that nothing in the bible can be historically or scientifically supported; not one shred of it

To say that there is no archaelogical evidence for anything in the Bible is rather ignorant, to say the least.  I assume that when one states that, that they are talking of such things as the recent "James" ossuary and the "Shroud of Turin."  As far as I know, there is no final concensus on either of those items, and although that doesn't make them true, it doesn't make them fakes either.

However, there have been many more finds that validate events, dates, people and places in the Bible.  Perhaps you can provide this "proof" that there is no evidence, maybe back up a claim or two, and we'll go from there.

Have you ever actually objectively studied the Bible or Christianity?

And I think MustardSeed has a great point: nothing you talk about in here - OBE, astral projection, etc., can be proven and you are essentially saying that one must just have faith and believe that what you are saying is true - something you blast Christianity for doing.  At least be consistent in your arguments.

quote:I say that the real truth in the bible is written between the lines, and that no matter what religion one follows, all are looking in the same direction and aspiring to the same goals.

Please tell me you are not saying that all religions are essentially the same and lead to "God," or whatever spiritual finality there may be.  Someone who believes that truly hasn't thought about what they believe.

[no_leaf_clover]

quote:To say that there is no archaelogical evidence for anything in the Bible is rather ignorant, to say the least. I assume that when one states that, that they are talking of such things as the recent "James" ossuary and the "Shroud of Turin." As far as I know, there is no final concensus on either of those items, and although that doesn't make them true, it doesn't make them fakes either.

I haven't heard about the "James Ossuary" but the Shroud of Turin is surrounded by controversy. If you've seen any Discovery Channel program about it, you'd know there are many problems with the idea that it was placed over Jesus at his death. First of all, it has never been proven that Jesus even died that way! But supposing that he did, the Shroud isn't in the right proportions and has detail that is more like that of a work of art than an actual blood-stained cloth. When the fabric was dated using carbon-14, the dates didn't come anywhere near those of when Jesus supposively died, but now people are arguing that this was caused by being in the close proximity of extreme heat, but there is no evidence to support this, either. Then to top it off.. the Discovery Channel hired someone to recreate the cloth, and they made one that looked exactly like it in a matter of days that even showed signs of great age.


Astral projection, reincarnation, etc., have nothing to due with the topic, beacuse those ideas are not being shoved down everyones throats as Allanon is trying to do with the Bible! Most people here believe in those types of things simply because this forum is based on those sorts of things. Whether or not you believe in those types of things depends on your own personal experiences. The Bible asks you to follow it blindly and if you get any coincidental result, it's because it's working. The things told about astral projection are much more detailed and obviously not coincidence, and millions of people have reported out-of-body experiences.

If you're Christian and you come across a lot of money, it's because of God, and if you go bankrupt, it's because God is planning something for you. Anybody else, and those things would just be taken at face value.

Of course, you can get such results 'artificially' with magic if you believe in such a thing, and Christianity can fall within the same category if you believe in the Bible strongly enough.

However, as has been stated before, the Bible is a work of fiction as far as anyone can tell, and not even personal experiences can determine for you whether or not those things really happened, and if they did, God was actually the cause of them.

[bitkari]

the bible, as with any piece of information should never be taken as either true or false.

there may be a great deal of very dodgy dogma in the bible, but there is quite possibly a quantity of value to be found.

something about throwing away dripping babies springs to mind.

[Spirit_k9]

Wasn't the bible a conglomeration of letters guys had written back and forth until Constantine (or whoever) consolidated them into 'books'?

Whatever, My opinion on the subject is fairly complex but since nobody really cares about my opinion anyway (LOL!) I'll make it really short. True, a man named Jesus robably did walk the Earth and spread 'the word' and was probably even crucified. Proof of that doesn't need to exist really. Proof that he was THE MESSIAH would be more interesting to me. An old shroud that's been debated and a few scrolls mean nothing to me.

The whole arguement is null to begin with IMO, because even if Jesus lived and was the messiah, the roman catholic religion has completely bastardized the entire meaning of what his life was supposed to stand for. Even the bible tells us that the age in which we supposedly live (Laeodician?) is the age where the very pope betrays the church....as if that hadn't happened already a dozen times at least. (start with the inquisition if you like and work from there)

I do not hate god (I say 'spirit'), nor do I dislike the idea of Jesus. I just don't worship those ideas nor do I partake in idolotry (you figure that one out). I have seen what I need to see for myself because I have worked to that goal (with Robert's help by the way) through improving myself spiritually and SEEKING. I still seek, because we can't possibly know all the answers, not even someone as holy and enshrined as Allanon can claim to -know- it all.

What I have learned is that spirit to me is not necessarily what god is to you, and that is as it should be because we ARE different. If the xtian fundies as well as the ones that bash them would take the time out of their battle long enough to seek the truths for themselves I think we could evolve as a race, both physically and more importantly, spiritually.

Bleh. That's as short as I can make it and still resemble a point....ROFL!

Peace ppl!

[Mustardseed]

Astral projection, reincarnation, etc., have nothing to due with the topic, beacuse those ideas are not being shoved down everyones throats as Allanon is trying to do with the Bible!

(answer)
Well My friend I suggest you read what in on your screen . It has everything to do with the topic, as long as the topic is "Attention Astral projecters ...Satan deceives you"

    ----------------------------------
(Qoute)
Most people here believe in those types of things simply because this forum is based on those sorts of things.

(answer)
Huh! Duh hmm how was that again
    -----------------------------------
(Qoute)
The Bible asks you to follow it blindly.
(Answer)

(answer)
If the picture you have of following it blindly is some blinded guy fumbeling around being lead astray into agression and bitterness and hate by a decietful Jesus I would venture to say you are wrong. However it does ask you to accept by faith some absolute truths. That God is way smarter than we are , that He is in control, that Jesus lived for love, and died for love and that everyone can have that love if accepting him and by showing the same love to others. It says we are to follow after love to live peaceably and do unto others what we would have them do unto us. It says nothing about astral projection however.
     -----------------------------------
(Qoute)
The things told about astral projection are much more detailed and obviously not coincidence, and millions of people have reported out-of-body experiences
(Answer)
Please refrain from words like that , obviously maybe to you and me maybe( I do have frequent OBEs)but obviously not obvious to a great deal of other people, and whoever said it was a coincidence anyway. The thread reads "....Satan decieves you" indicating that Allanon believes it to be a carefully thought out plan and no coincidence

   ------------------------------------------
(Qoute)
If you're Christian and you come across a lot of money, it's because of God, and if you go bankrupt, it's because God is planning something for you. Anybody else, and those things would just be taken at face value.
(Answer)
I am sorry but you are way out in left field here and your ignorance of what the Bible really says and teaches is all too evident. I would suggest you refrain from telling us what the Bible says unless you can qoute it with referance, we who are Christians know it a tad better than you do. On the contrary I would say that what you say the Bible teaches sounds much more like Karma Hinduinsm and Fatalism. The Bible teaches you that all things WORK TOGETHER for good to them that love God. There is a difference
    --------------------------------------------

(Qoute)
However, as has been stated before, the Bible is a work of fiction as far as anyone can tell.
(Answer)
At least that is what YOU have chosen to BELIEVE. However there are a lot of people who would beg do differ with you. It seems to me that you argue about things you yourself really know very little about, using arguments that are pretty silly , really , (have you talked to "anyone" about it). You seem to stubbornly cling to your limited 15 year teen age opinion. A opinion you have chosen from the writings of others, and OBVIOUSLY not from a great wealth of life experiences. You see, that is why we are taught that people who are your age should not be in any leadership. That is why mostly elders, and not young "novices" as they are called(with a few exeptions like Timothy)are in any position in Christianity at large.  

This is not meant as a insult but I know that this could greatly inflame your teenage ego, but this is a forum of teens and adults and I am not your Dad, and will have to treat you like an adult, so if you want to argue religion Christianity OBEs etc. Consentrate, think about what you write and use your mind, and if you want to challenge any claim the Bible makes please include the statement you disagree with.

Regards Mustardseed

[Nerezza]

recent "James" ossuary and the "Shroud of Turin." As far as I know, there is no final concensus on either of those items,

The ossuary is still up for debate apparently. One group has called it a fake(the IAA), while another claims it's authentic. The shroud of turin is a more interesting story.

http://www.shroudforum.com/

But those are two relics that are under constant scrutiny(since it would prove two very important things). There are other relics(incriptions of pilate, coins. As well as the tomb of one of the Jewish religious leaders that wanted Jesus dead). Also, fairly recently they found some sort of inscription mention King David. There are more, but you'll have to go to a biblical archeaology site.

[Traveler]

I have followed biblical archaeology for over 10 years (probably closer to 12)and have always been fascinated with archaeology in general. I've been a subsciber to Biblical Archaeological Review, a magazine dedicated to finding physical proof of biblical events, places and people. There is massive amounts of archaeological evidence to support the bible but like mainstream archaeology, it can be subjective and debatable. Conclusions can be drawn from very convincing arguements, both pro and con, to justify a theory. I've read accounts of one archaeologist who, after seeing Jesus in front of him on a dig site, claims to have located the exact site of Christ's crucifiction. The siting of Jesus was witnessed by a local official visiting the archaeologist. Carbon dating is too inaccurate to prove anything, true or false. It only gives a very general ballpark figure. IMO, to simply dismiss the bible as fiction makes no sense.

[exothen]

Some good responses.

I think a point to add in here is that biblical archaeology does not prove that Christianity is correct or prove that the Bible was inspired by God.  What it does do is give support for the factual, historical events, places, people, etc., that appear in the Bible.  This in turn does add some credibility to the truth of the Bible as a whole.

Also, as to the Bible asking people to follow it blindly is completely untrue.  The Bible tells us to search with all our hearts, to study the scriptures thoroughly.  Christianity is a religion of the intellect as well as the heart.  Of course there are some issues that we can't understand or comprehend, and it takes faith to believe, but that is all part of trying to understand the infinite and supernatural, and that doesn't make Christianity false.

Another point is that if what Christianty claims is true, then its claims demand attention and investigation.  It is the height of ignorance to simply dismiss these claims without serious investigation, espescially if one is to just take someone else's word for it.

[Allanon]

This post by Allanon has been deleted as it was one of 6 exact replicas of a post originally submitted by Chill in topic -
Be warned: The spirit-war is well underway...

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6894&whichpage=2

Regards
James.

[Rob]

Oh boy! Great post Robert, VERY interesting.....

Right - no evidence for Christ etc:

a) I seem to remember a post of yours, a long time ago, when you mentioned an OBE in which you met Jesus, and also (perhaps another) in which you saw the scene of the resurrection in the tomb, or something, when Mary first saw Jesus after he arose. Have you changed you mind about this, or are you now saying that this was all just the creation of man??!?

b) I would like to site an usual piece of evidence. Namely Laurence Gardner's work (for which, amusingly enough, he was knighted.....lol I'm sure that it was just for his wonderful research though, nothing else []) - his book "Bloodline Of The Holy Grail" in which he traces the lineage of all the kings and queens of europe and, to his suprise, finds that they all seem to point to a single couple  at....wait for it.....the time of Christ. This is, obviously, a continuation of the Royal line of David, which came through Adraham and Moses - arguable an ex-Pharoe of Ancient Egypt, the line of which may well go back to Enoch and Adam.
But anyway, further evidence he investigates are orders from Rome in the centuries after Christ to hunt down and kill the descendants of Jesus, who are seen as a threat to Caeser.
While I have not read this particular book, I have read "Lost Secrets of the Sacred Ark", in which he argues (fully backed with science) that the Ark was an enormous electro-static generator and then some, used for the production of white powder gold. Its a very good, scholarly work, and I see no reason to think that his other books are dissimilar.
website: http://graal.co.uk/ - specifically http://graal.co.uk/bloodline.html (oh yeah the section on "white powder gold" is worth looking into too....hehe I just cant help myself LOL)

OK I should be in bed, just got back from holiday, luckily I slept most of the journey heh pure skill. If I think of anything else I'll post again.

adios
Rob

[Spirit_k9]

Xothen, (and anyone else reading) I just wanted you to know that I in no way wish to dissuade you from your faith. For you, that's fine if you choose that path.  For me, it's not fine, I need more and I found more.

My opinion: Faith is just an excuse to not seek more, not find spirit in your own perception and take the message of its existance to heart. There's much more to learn than what is parabalized in the bible. The message is so much larger than that....but I can't tell you what I perceive the message to be, you have to go get it yourself.

The importance of the message as well as spirit's intention for our very purpose is completely lost in the arguements about the validity of the bible or the hypocricy and corruption of the organized religion. These things are just SO unimportant in comparison.

In my experience and perception, one purpose for the ability to advance spiritually is to get that message in 'person', not take it for granted that some book is right or some guy in a funny hat is worthy of delivering that message on my behalf. If I were spirit, (shhh!) I'd be insulted by the fact that more don't make the effort to seek rather than wait till they die to find out the truth for themselves.  Astral projection is ONE step along the way. It's not a device of the devil, it's a tool provided by spirit to move along your path, it's not the end of the path by any means....and neither is the bible.

: end opinion

[James S]

Nothing....Umm...did what I wanted to do....just ignore this []

James.

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

First, my previous post was not directed at anyone in particular, especially not at Mustardseed, who in my humble opinion is making a lot of sense. It was directed at closed-minded monotheistic fundamentalists who's sole argument comes from their version of bible text interpretation.

Forgive me if my post seemed otherwise.  I embrace the sentiments and spiritual roots of all religions.  But I am not very tolerant of dogmatic emotional blackmail.

Religious fundamentalist arguments and statements are generally one-sided and absolute and they leave no room for discussion...eg, 'believe my way or be damned' is a wide theme. They also use a lot of emotional blackmail to intimidate people into believing exactly as they do, eg, threatening eternal hellfire and damnation and soul destruction for non believers, etc. In fact, they give new meaning to the words 'non believer' as believing 'almost the same' as they do is not good enough, as they 'demand' total agreement on all points.

(Note that this type of approach is common to most if not all fundamentalist religions, including non Christian type religions).  

Personal experiential evidence is rarely considered, and everything comes down to bible text interpretation. In fact, recourse to bible text is so deeply ingrained in that side of this arena that empirical knowledge, personal experience and other such recognizable evidence is often swept away if it is thought to disagree with bible text. And anything that is not understood, eg, astral projection, Kundalini, meditation, etc, is immediately labelled as being 'of the devil'.  I find this perplexing as my critics here have very little conception of what these things are and how they relate to the spiritual universe, particularly concerning Kundalini.

Do you know just how 'similar' the world's religious beliefs are?  In fact, did you know that the Koran was loosely based on the old and new testaments, albeit heavily rewritten?
All the world's holy books have 'very' similar themes and ideals. The characters and events are different of course, as they arose in different times and cultures, but their messages are essentially the same.

I say, why can't we rejoice in our similarities, rather than waging perpetual war over minor differences?

My point in writing my earlier post was to throw the validity of the Christian fundamentalist argument (based on biblical text) onto the table, to hopefully stimulate some more open minded discussion. The fundamentalists here have been openly attacking and criticizing everyone else with their absolutes at every turn, so I considered it only fair to examine the source and validity of these absolutes (their evidence) as any good scientist would.

I notice that after my last post, I have been asked to be more open-minded in considering 'possibilities' that some of the bible may be genuine. I agree.  And this is important because this is exactly what I have been trying to do, eg, to stimulate 'open minded' discussion of a wide range of possibilities, which is something that certain Christian fundamentalists have not shown. I am extremely open minded to all these things and try to encourage same in all my discussions on all topics.  In all fairness, I ask everyone participating in this discussion to do the same.

One point concerning archaeological evidence cited in this post, that is claimed to support bible events:  the evidence cited has been gathered by Christian-minded archaeologists who's main purpose (and more importantly, their funding) is aimed at validating bible events as being historically accurate.  Evidence gained in this way is highly biased and thus not internationally acceptable in the actual fields of archaeology and history. You will find this kind of evidence being presented as 'fact' in many bible-oriented magazines, books and papers.  But these are the only places where such things (Christian propaganda) are accepted.

This single-minded approach to this kind of research is very unscientific, and results are therefore subjective and dubious to say the least.  This is like funding a large chemical company to do a study on adverse long-term effects of their own major products.  The results of any such study will obviously be flawed as it would be heavily biased in their favour.

In an earlier post a scientist is said to have had a vision of Jesus, showing him the exact site of the crucifixion.  This is taken as 'proof' to validate that scientist's findings.  Now, apart from the highly subjective and personal nature of such evidence, 'how' this scientist reported that 'vision' is important. If, for example, he stated that he had a psychic impression, or a clairvoyant vision, or an astral projection, or a materialization, or a meditation experience, his evidence would have immediately been classed as 'of the devil' and discarded.

You see, all the above things are very similar, but how one describes such a phenomenon is important because certain terms contain 'baggage'.  For example, if a Christian tells his church that he was 'taken up' by the 'holy spirit' to heaven where he had a 'vision of Jesus', this is accepted as a wonderful holy experience by that church. But if the same person rephrases this and says he had an astral projection where an invisible spirit force took him to the akashic records where he had a vision of Jesus, it is discarded as being 'of the devil'. Its all in 'how' one says this kind of thing.  My point here is that regardless of one's religious or cultural roots, or one's choice of words, exactly the same thing is being discussed.

Another example relating to the above is my 'astral knights' experience, given in Astral Dynamics. In this OBE I saw a large cloud appear in my home, full of flickering lightening as if it were on fire, and heard what sounded like the voice of God booming from this burning cloud. This is very much like what Moses experienced when he saw a burning bush and heard the voice of God coming from the fire.  If you compare my contemporary experience to the bible experience, it is quite possible that Moses was having an OBE and saw and heard what I did, eg, a burning bush type of experience.

What we need to do to make progress in this arena is to do more such comparisons.


More food for thought......


Take care, Robert.

[Rob]

Ahem....

3) History is made in the texts that record their events. To say that there is no "evidence" is then almost ludicrous - when you remember that there are many thousands of texts which record the life of Jesus. Admittedly, they dont agree everywhere, but you can hardly fault them for that. It is therefore misleading to say that the Bible only verifies itself - forgetting the many other texts not included, this is the way with much of history - the records are indeed all we have to go by. Texts are what create history, they constitute evidence in themselves.

4) Continuing from this, the "physical evidence" you speak of, I assume, is directed at the lack of errr lets see, physical objects. This is, however, again misleading. Jesus was but one man, with a handful of close followers. His main works were not like emperors who built huge palaces, or the pharaohs who build pyramids. They were in the message he brought, in the work he did with his own healing hands and the suffering he received. And, of course there are no massive edifices erected to him in his time - some of the people on the street loved him, but those in power either hated him or were not particularly interested. Why should they support him? So! What else is there? What would you really expect to find, if we are talking of "evidence" here?
And yet, we do have indications of his life, thanks to his disciples. I've just come back from holiday in Turkey - where I visited the temple of St John the Divine, and the Church of the Martyrdom of St Philip. The latter was stoned to death in AD 80 or abouts, with his son, by the locals; the former is the final resting place of St John. The churches were build in the 3rd and 4th centuries AD - which is hardly surprising, as it took a while before Christianity took hold. That is, you cant really expect them to kill a man then build a huge Byzantine church to him the next day......so are you seriously suggesting that these people were totally made up? Why?? And, why then would erect churches to honour them in totally random spots in turkey, of all places?? It just doesn't make sense. It indicates that these people were real, did real things, which they believed totally in, are received punishment from the heathens for it...
The church of St John would have been a magnificent structure when it was in use (both are ruins today), and had some very interesting inscriptions and carvings. To me, they indicate that whoever build the place, knew a lot that we dont. (If there's anyone who would be interested in seeing some piccies, let me know - there is what looks to be a sigil or two, and a very odd cross which inscriptions over it)

[][][]

Rob

Of course, none of this really means I believe what I say, but any discussion would still be valuable!

[Luci]

Dear Inguma,

Thanks for the exposition. I concur. I am also pleased someone said this has every bearing on AP. Suppose we call the bible "fooey"? We might as well call Astral Projection "hallucination". Right?

Anyway, I'd really love to hear more detail about the view that the bible has little evidence supporting it. I understand this view is widely held and I see why people contend there is no "hard" evidence. However, I don't see why anyone would object to all the "loose" evidence that piles up so rapdily.

To me, the book is either a grand conspiracy (of biblical proportions), or it quite probably contains a few actual events and people.

Don't you think?

[]

Love,

Luci

[Adrian]

Greetings Inguma,

quote:Originally posted by Inguma

Ahem....

3) History is made in the texts that record their events. To say that there is no "evidence" is then almost ludicrous - when you remember that there are many thousands of texts which record the life of Jesus. Admittedly, they dont agree everywhere, but you can hardly fault them for that. It is therefore misleading to say that the Bible only verifies itself - forgetting the many other texts not included, this is the way with much of history - the records are indeed all we have to go by. Texts are what create history, they constitute evidence in themselves.

I think a very important consideration here is that it seems likely that no one actually documented the words of Jesus at the time, and if they were documented no such documentary evidence exists today. There is of course the esoteric/occult records of the Essenes (which Jesus is widely thought to belong to along with his parents and disciples) and more recently the Nag Hammadi scrolls. The bible then is mostly based upon hearsay,and accordingly as evidence it would be rejected in a court of law. Note, the Nag Hammadi Gnostic scrolls were almost certainly hidden in order to prevent almost certain destruction by the emergent christian orthodox church which was seeking to impose its own powers as it has over the centuries.

For the most part however the modern bible (new testament) was entirely written by man as an interpretation of the happenings of the time. As with all interpretations, the interpreter will sub-consciously add his or her bias to it, as well as glamourising things etc.. I think this is how alot of the bible was written when it ended up in Greek. It is also like the party game "chinese whispers" were someone whispers a phrase to the next person, who whispers it to the next and so on, and by the time the phrase arrives back to the original person it has little or no similarity to the original. On top of this, the bible has been translated and retranslated, interpreted and re-interpreted so many times, even the original interpretation was probably largely lost over time. Add to that the fact it became the main instrument of the church for controlling its congregations and was re-written accordingly. It all adds up to the fact that rather being the word of God, it is the word of an untold number of different races, ambitions and aspirations, and has degenerated to not much more than a work of fiction which is called fact, or specifically the word of God.

One of the most significant tamperings was around the sixth century when the church decided to remove reincarnation from its teachings and replaced it with the concepts of "heaven" and "hell". This was of course to enable them to control the congregations much more effectively with the threat of damnation for aneternity in "hell" if they did not believe and follow the official church doctrines. Another significant position is by referring to Jesus as the son of God, when in fact the original teachings, notably the word of John in the Essenes, Rosicrucian etc. records clearly teaches the truth that we are all sons and daughters of God.

It is a pity how people can be so oblivious to all of these facts.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Robert Bruce]

G'day Folks!

I did not mean to make everyone so defensive.  Please reread my last post. I took 'that' position simply because I am so tired of christian fundamentalists trying to ram their version of truth down the throats of everyone in this forum. I am most definitely not attacking christianity in general. But I notice that the fundamentalists have been quiet lately.

There is no loose or circumstantial evidence to support anything in the bible, not even a 'little'. There is not one single shred of factual evidence, not one. The earliest archeological evidence available today are a few third century fingernail-size fragments of parchment that scientists 'think' may have come from an early hand written bible testament.  The original bible, which is a fair bit different from the one we have today, is on record as having appeared during or after the great meeting called by roman emperor Constantine. He forced the formation of the christian church in an attempt to stabilize his empire.  (One did not argue with the roman emperor.) During the formation of christianity, elements of many beliefs and religions were taken into the heart of christianity (it appeared to be a very political affair), including elements of Mithrism (sun worship), and it is from this that we get the modern Eucharist included in christian worship.  

The 'thousands' of texts that have been vaguely cited as 'loosely' supporting the validity of the bible must be contemporary texts, not historical texts. These are based on blind dogmatic belief in the validity of the bible, not on any actual proof. They should thus be considered inadmissable as proof in this discussion.

Please note that my statements in these posts are not original. A lot of scholarly books have been written on these matters. One that springs to mind is called 'The Rock of Truth'. I forget the author's name (he was an early spiritualist), but it was back in the 50's or 60's I think. I remember the author saying that he sent copies of his manuscript to the heads of all the christian churches he could find, stating that if they could refute anything in his book he would retract it. A year went by and he had no replies, so he published.  The book was immediately banned by most christian churches, even though they could not refute anything in the book.

If you want to find the truth in these matters, study third century religion, which is where everything started. In particular, get the book 'Origen', which is available in most libraries. As I said before, the 'gnostic' gospels are also worth reading. The gnostic gospels also appeared around the same time as the bible, I think, but these were suppressed for many years by the church because they promoted freedom of thought and other such modern stuff.

As for providing proof that there is no evidence, this is ludicrous. It is up to anyone who wants to dispute my statements to offer actual proof to the contrary. The proof you seek, but probably don't want to find, is freely available should you choose to do a little research.

We are all made to believe that the events in the bible are true, because heads of churches and governments want this, as this fosters stability in the population. But there is still no actual proof.

If anyone wants to start refuting things, how about we start in the beginning, where emperor Constantine formed the christian church, and where the bible was put together. So, is anyone saying this did not happen? Is anyone familiar with these events?

You must admit, I hope, that this current change of thread direction has a little more hope of going somewhere than the discussion that started all this. And if my words disturb you, then I have succeeded in making you think.

In closing, I think it is clear that christian belief, and belief in the bible, depends largely upon faith. This is the same with all religions.

Take care, Robert.

[Nick]

The book Robert refers to "The Rock of Truth" was written by  
Arthur Findlay.







This website has additional information, including how to order the book:

http://www.spirittales.com/spirittales025.htm



Very best,