Islam (Moderated Discussion)

[southakj]

Thank you for bearing with me, I'm just trying to get as much stuff posted to stimulate discussion, and clear the air, so to speak;


On Reincarnation and Cosmology.

Islam in general, with the exception of one or two thinkers (and the problematic Ismaili sect) sharply rejects reincarnation, indeed there are MANY problems, we feel, with modern  New Age concepts of Reincarnation. There is something more going on here, AND there are ways to reconcile sincere beliefs in reincarnation, and sincere beliefs AGAINST reincarnation, and also ways of explaining phenomena such as past life memories and the like, but I'll get to this, if my fair readers will read on.

First a question, if there is no linear time (and linear time is an illusion, in a sense, limited to certain planes of existence) HOW CAN WE HAVE PAST OR FUTURE LIVES ?

As we seen it, naught truly IS excepting Allah, and naught of time truly IS except the single moment, the eternal now, all else is a limited perception. All being is contingent, only Allah is true Being, and indeed the ESSENCE (al-dhat) of Allah is BEYOND BEING ITSELF.

Allah stated that 'Man curses time through the ages, but know that I am time' The sort of "time" spoken of is al-Dahr, or time through the ages, a concept similar to the modern concept of the Space Time continuum.

It is said that nothing was except Allah "upon his throne", and that Allah IS now as Allah WAS.

There is no past, there is no future, each moment is a NEW CREATION.

Why?

This teaching of the exoteric theologians, known as the Mutakalimun (of the Ashari school) is explained as everything being composed of irreducibley small particles "atoms", and each atom only exists for a brief period of time, blinks out of existence, and is renewed by Allah, EVERY MOMENT IS NEW.

Now the Inner teachings of the Sufi dervishes explain this further, for many of the Dervishes believe that there are BREATHS, pulses, of existence, in, out, expansion, contraction, THESE ARE THE BREATHS OF ALLAH in a metaphorical sense.

Mercy (al-Rahma) the "feminine" creation, and Rigor/wrath (ghadab), the "masculine" destruction, expand, contract; in a single moment a rhythmic pulse expands (think of the Great Bang) outward engendering all creation, and retracts DESTROYING ALL, constantly, for all eternity over and over again.

Thus as the Quran says, every day Allah is upon a new affair. This should be meditated upon. Each human soul is a unique creation as well, and this is what Muslims also find offensive about reincarnation, but I'll explain this further.

Older concepts of metempsychosis, transmigration, and rebirth, found in SOME Hindu and Buddhist thought, are less problematic, but it merits pointing out that, contrary to popular belief, doctrines of reincarnation are not all that common in the ancient world.

Greeks in LATER periods held some doctrines of metempsychosis, mainly after Plato, who taught a form of metempsychosis, he learnt from the Pythagorean schools, who got it from study in certain Egyptian mystery schools.

SOME Egyptian mystery schools taught similar doctrines, and the post-Vedic Hindus did as well. But witness the beliefs in heavens and hells in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Some of the Celts seem to have believed in a rebirth in OTHER WORLDS, and a return for some to this world, but their beliefs are not well documented. LATER Druids believed in Rebirth but this could be influenced by Greek thought, as it is known that the Druid sages also studied similar mystery traditions in later periods.

Also some later Jewish doctrines describe a type of soul-wandering from body to body, sometimes without death taking place.

A belief in metempsychosis is also found here and there, amongst some American tribes, in some pacific tribes, but it is not Universal, belief in other types of post-death states also abound with equal if not greater frequency.

I NOW BELIEVE (Personally, I speak for myself) that ALL of these doctrines describe phenomena that exists, but not in the sense that people usually take them. I also believe that...

MORE MANY WESTERNERS THE IDEA OF REINCARNATION IS VERY ROMANTIC, VERY APPEALING.

It appeals to some people in ways that other doctrines do not.

It is interesting that in Eastern cultures people are repelled by the idea of reincarnating.

In modern Western cultures, many people look upon the doctrine with a fondness as a sort of school, of sorts, of hard knocks.

Still in the East many dread it, the whole point of many schools of Yoga and Buddhist thought is to ESCAPE Samsara, reincarnation is a punishment for them, not a chance to learn more, rather its a hard knock on the head for not achieving the NORMATIVE STATE of Nirvana,

Reincarnation is thus seen as an unfortunate consequence for failing to reach a normative state, not a school to help us evolve.

Reincarnation is no where found in the Vedas, instead ideas similar to Islamic ones, of a judgement after death and a heaven for those pleasing to the Gods, are found in scattered bits through the Vedas.

The Taoists in China NEVER believed in reincarnation until AFTER the Buddhists took control in China. This is a historical fact.

There are heavens and hells, however, in Taoist beliefs. As well in Tibetan Bon beliefs, and these beliefs were integrated into later Buddhist beliefs.

As Zen teaches (and many Zen schools either refuse to deal with reincarnation or reject it off the bat) ANYONE CAN BECOME ENLIGHTENED IN A MOMENT.

It does not and need not take 1000 lifetimes to achieve enlightenment, a child could given the right circumstances.

I also believe, personally, as to dispositions, there is an INHERENT OPTIMISM in Anglo-Saxon cultures, especially in American ones, that is a good virtue but can have the unfortunate dark-side reflection of...

A certain type of indolence and laziness, really no one needs to repeat 12th grade 5 times before graduating.

Our school systems give many chances, GEDs, remedial courses, and the like. Many other cultures do not allow this.

This is because we are optimists here, and realize that human nature IS perfectible given enough knocks on the head, and door.

But honestly folks, who really NEEDS to repeat 12th grade three times?

[southakj]

I believe that DIFFERENCES IN WORLDVIEWS AND EXPERIENCES affect how different people look at spiritual doctrines.

Someone who has been abused and downtrodden will have GUT almost physical reactions to certain situations, words, and even ideas.

Someone who has led a life of relative ease will have others.

For example, a young girl or boy who has been abandoned repeatedly in their youth may find trust difficult in later life.

Some people seem more jaded or cynical, emotional armor, others seek certain experiences or situations, while avoiding others.

So I try to tread easy when talking about my beliefs and those of others, bear with me please.

I think that we can all note that life in many parts of the world is harder than life in the West, who the heck wants to be a out-caste garbage scavenger in Bombay for 3 incarnations?

There are specific Weltenschuungs in the West, and in the East, that are shared across many cultures. THESE SHARED WORLD VIEWS AFFECT CULTURE AND LANGUAGE AND RELIGION.

This effects things a great deal, I think. For example, traditionally Afghani and Central Asian Muslim cultures have things in common with the Chinese taoists, as part of their general worldviews, shared across Central Asia.

Arab Muslim cultures share much in their worldviews as crystalised in their culture with Mediteranian peoples, and in Southern Arabia with some African peoples.

Now I think that reincarnation of the SOUL is a different matter than reincarnation of the SPIRIT.

In our culture today the two words are interchangable, but once, not so very long ago, there was less ambiguity.

Part of the problem is that CHURCH DOCTRINE DIVIDED REALITY INTO TWO SPHERES, Spirit, and Matter.

In Ancient times this was not the case, there has ALWAYS been an intermediate dimension betweeh matter and spirit.

The Alchemists know of this, and we discuss it here, this is the DAEMONIC, the PSYCHIC dimensions of reality.

The SOUL. The soul is intermediate between the spirit and matter. In Arabic Spirit is Ruh. Soul is Nafs. Body is Jism.

WE REJECT TRANSMIGRATION OF THE SELF, the soul, the psyche. The individual Ego. Indeed many buddhist teach that there IS NO PERMINANT SELF so what is there to reincarnate?

HOWVER, in a sense, we can argue for a transmigration of the Atman. Now is Atman our soul? No, it is the spiritual essence beyond this soul.

There is one true Self, one true atman. One true Being. Here we arrive at the doorsteps of a mystery.

[southakj]

Lastly (yay!)

Reincarnation and the Jinn.

Now what are we? Our physical bodies? No, our psychic bodies? Well the etheric and astral bodies are also shells, our Psyches are not us, we are like onion skins wrapped about each other, hence we are MULTI DIMENSIONAL, living and existing in MULTIPLE dimensions

While outward exoteric Islam explains the minimum needed for humanity to live their life with intent and purpose, and to create SOCIETIES enabling spiritual pursuit (this is the true purpose of the Shariat law, to order human society to the minimum degree necessary to remove gross oppression, and create enough balance so that humanity can turn to inner pursuits without obstructions, if they choose to do so, and if they choose not to do so, at least to prevent them from making too many problems for those who do)

Inward esoteric Islam's scholars saw fit to further investigate reality. Thus many Dervish thinkers arrived at beliefs that when born OUR SOULS PASS AND LIVE THROUGH MULTIPLE WORLDS, sometimes getting stuck in one, so to speak, and acquiring colors and traits from that world.

I refer interested readers to the writings of Hazrat Innyat Khan Sufi.

Our souls may live in the realms of hurqalya, whence the Jinn come, and acquire the traits of the Jinn, including a fondness and disposition towards music, poetry, the arts, and a fiery temperament. There are many other planes and worlds and passage through them may yield their traits on people. So traits, skills, even memories of other lives ARE from other lives...

But in other dimensions and worlds.

The New Age concept of an "Oversoul" is a simplification of an ancient dervish teaching, I explained the inhale/exhale pulse of creation (interested readers are refered to the writings of Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra, and Suhrawardi, as translated in English).

Now it is known that ALL IN THIS WORLD IS A SYMBOL, a mirror image, of objects in ANOTHER WORLD. This is the secret of magick. The other world is Hurqalya, or "the astral plane", which is itself a MIRROR of another world, and so on.

Hence our rejection of "flat" frequency based models of meta-reality popular in New Age circles, these models have truth within them but only explain part of the story. The levels of reality that are more dense, and solid, are those on the periphery, imagine a GREAT WHEEL, with spokes, and bands on each level until the circle's hub and midpoint.

At the circle's midpoint A SINGLE POINT, this point irreducible. Imagine, here, "Allah", beyond gender, beyond form, formless, ancient of days, encompassing all gender, all possibilities. Imagine a great sun, irridating light outward, EVERY FORM IN THIS WORLD is a mirror image of an archetype, in a   world of suspended images, that world, a mirror image of other worlds, and so on. EVERY FORM MANIFESTS A "NAME" of Allah in some way, a human being or a Jinn manifests Allah's names and attributes, such as life, sight, hearing, and other harder to explain ones IN A UNIQUE CONFIGURATION, our BODIES are reflections of other BODIES in other worlds until we cease to be forms and are "essences" or spirits, these spirits are manifestations of a "Lord", a "Rab", a divine name, this is the master Archetype of who and what we are.

It is what New Age circles call "an oversoul". It is a trait and attribute of Allah, Allah as manifested to the creation since Allah is in essence beyond manifestation. One Lord has manifested itself in MANY separate smaller selves throughout time and space and all the worlds, ALL of the Worlds, known and unknown. Thus it is said that "He who knows himself knows his Lord"

Thus the Prophet Muhammad taught that there were many earths and upon each of those earths is an Adam like our Adam, and even a Muhammad like our Muhammad.

And it is not proper for me to speak and speculate in idle fancy along such topics much further, beyond what is needed to stimulate conversation, and debate, for I believe that it is by comparing ideas boldly and yet with grace that we may grow in knowledge and lore. Perhaps there is much within this in which I an incorrect and my correction may come by the words of a fellow reader.  The interested reader can pursue them to her or his heart's content further with the above as an aid to his or her research.

I close with the traditional benediction; anything of good in this is from Allah, anything other is from my ego-self (al-Nafs), and truly Allah knows best, so praise to the Lord of the worlds and salutations upon his Prophets and their loved ones. Upon you, reader, I wish peace.

[V.J]

Hey, I'm new here[], but I do have a simple question. Trying to find ties I suppose. [] I heard reference to Jesus being accept as a prophet in Muslim religion, which I already knew. But what I don't know is, does Christian religion accept Prophet Muhammad, as a prophet? Also, why is Muhammad considered the last prophet? I'm just a humble person simply seeking answers and insights. Many people believe Martin Luther and MalcolmX were prophets, not sure, but they were martyred. So what would they be seen as in the light of religious beliefs of Muslims?[?]

[ganja1babe]

Robert Bruce, I think your brilliant []
Iv Got All You Books & Love Your Website

[ICWiz]

Dear Friends,

I will try to touch on some of the topics brought up.

First the one that i didn't see answered, was the question that how is it that God is All merciful and compassionate, yet the Quran speaks of punishment from God for those who don't believe.

The Islamic ideology is that we humans have been created for divine service. We are God's servant, his deputies on this world. He loves us more then we can possibly imagine.

However, just like a father who love his children, God does not want us to go astray. These punishments are like slaps on the wrist, to discipline us back to the way.

Islam is also like a doorway. There is So much more than what you see in the Quran. The Quran is like a window to the infinite. It has all knowledge in there, you just have to be at a certain levels to understand the different wisdoms. This is what Sufism is.

www.the-heart.net has more information on these topics.

Islam does believe in the astral, and in dimensions. All humans are said to have a Hamazd, or partner. This is similar to the idea of an astral double. It is said that through discipline and worship, one can gain control of his or her hamzad, and then have it do things (like project).

Jinns are real in Islam. They are beings created of smokeless fire (which by todays science, is Plasma). They are much much stronger than humans, also they can exist in our world and 'theirs' reality ( I believe this to be the astral worlds).

Jinns are not just a concept in islam.The prophet Solomon was giving the right of control over them. Solomon's temple in Jerusalem is said to have been built by jinns. There are many more accounts of them interacting with humans.  There are sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) where he has converted jinns to Islam.

I personally know a Sufi mystic who has knowledge of jinns, Bad jinns have been known to possess humans. Most of the 'spirit' attacks that i have read about on this site are, according to Islamic belief, jinns. Real spirits, or souls rarely hurt people. The mystic knew how to remove them from a persons body, and he could even make them talk through the person and have them describe why they have possessed them. I have seen this done with my own eyes. Quite the experience.

Any more questions.[8D]

--ICWiz

[kenshinhan604]

Hey ya all iwas passing bye and noticed this thread, a few of my friends have opened a new website dedicated to islam, and its teachings if you have anything to ask please visit plez visit and go ahead


Kasim

www.albaraa.net

[Beth]

This thread was set up for the specific purpose of the friendly exploration of the Islamic Religion and its holy books.

Please feel free to share what you know, or to ask any questions that you may have!  I am looking forward to learning more about it myself!

This thread WILL be MODERATED.  All off-topic posts will be deleted. The other topic 'Islam (open discussion)' is for matters relating to Islam that do not fit the theme of 'Friendly exploration'.


Peace, Beth