Women & Islam...

[Synergy]

I got to reading the common ground thread about Muslims, and I have to say I am totally confused about women's place in Islam. 

I read a few quotes in there that basically say that women were created equal to men, but then why are men guardians over women?  Could guardian and protector simply mean the literal meanings of that men are supposed to protect the women, but not dominate over them?  Why in Islam, do women enjoy far fewer freedoms than men? (examples, they can not walk in public alone without a male family member... but men are allowed to walk without a female family member, men do not have to cover their bodies up like a women, men can marry 4 wives (does that mean women can marry 4 husbands too?) Men are promised virgins in heaven... do women get virgin males in heaven?)  This does not sound like the 'equality' that was quoted from the Quran....  More examples... why is a women who was raped scorned as being 'unpure' even though she is the victim? Where are her male protectors then?  Why is the burden of proof ALWAYS on the women to prove rape, and then of course the male witnesses will not tell the truth, and then the women is punished for making it up? What women would want to admit that she had been violated then?  Why do women have to worship in a separate area behind men in mosques?

Again I say, could the term 'guardian' and 'protector' have been taken way too far, to mean domination over and ownership of, women.... and instead should have just meant literally, that they should protect their women?  If men and women are supposed to be equals, why do men have so much more freedom and promised rewards than women through Islam? 

You might have guessed... I am a woman.  And I enjoy being equal to men. I enjoy being able to walk around freely without having to have a male family member accompany me, or to have to cover all of myself up in hot weather (though I do not dress promiscuously either), I enjoy and revel in my beliefs (also of ONE true God) but that I will be an equal here AND after death.  I am not property, I am not less of a person than men, I can achieve everything that men can (and I am in a male dominated career - Navy, I am a female submariner), I dont have to endure being locked up in a house with windows painted over so people can not see a woman inside... I dont have to endure being beaten by a husband, or forced to submit to anything I dont want to do...

The treatment of women in other societies really hits a sore spot for me.  If I was in a society where I was opressed to that extreme, I don't think I would have the will to live, if I could not escape it. which brings me to my last question... why is the suecide rate of women in highly opressed societies, much higher than in those where women are treated equal??

[AmbientSound]

God's message to all the Universe:

"We apologize for the inconvenience."

[Colden]

I watched a little bit of a special on TV last night about the Koran. The women were saying that the Koran honors women and praises them but yet they are oppressed by the men, religion, and government. IMO this is wrong and is total authoritarianism......or would total authoritarianism equal totalitarianism? hmmm

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Organised religions are ways to keep order and have control over people. In the olden days, religious institutions had more authority than the government - sometimes they were one and the same.

I think Islam is the most pronounced and typical example of this. It systematically and matter-of-factly places men as superior to women.  People are so brainwashed and conditioned that they involuntarily buy into this system - completely unaware that they are being manipulated.  So much so that the women would tell you they have chosen to cover themselves and that they have all the freedom they want - which is exactly what the 'system' has consciously or subconsciously taught them to say.  (a bit like The Stepford Wives)

I know muslim women including new converts who have told me this.  However much I want to change them, I know I can't. Change comes from within - so when they are ready, in this life or the next, they will claim back their freedom and human rights.  I suppose we all have to go through phases...

[AmbientSound]

I agree that organized religion is just a mechanism to control people. I stay away from people who are prone to giving advice without being asked for it- a.k.a. preaching their religion to people who do not want to hear it. Reminds me of a zen sarcasm quote: "Generally speaking, if your lips are moving, you aren't learning anything."

[AmbientSound]

I suppose we all have to go through phases...

Very quantum-physics. The 'phases,' as I understand, create different interference patterns in our energy fields, giving us a perception of the resonance spectrum- which in turn gives us a better idea of who we are.

[anelie.]

Hi Synergy,

I will try to answer your questions. But please bear in mind that I am not an expert in islam or islamic culture so I might be wrong.

1. Why woman cannot walk alone in public, but has to be accompanied by a male family member.
For me, this is more a question of a culture, because I think that it exists also in other cultures than in islamic countries, ie. in India. Why do I think that it is more a question of a culture? Because in India you have two main religions, hinduism which is prevalent and islam. BUT, whatever the religion, the social rules are similar, it is the family who finds husbands/wives to their children, women cannot wear skirts, I would say that in India rules are even stricter, for example in north african countries, as I know, a man can touch his wife in public, he can hold her hand, and so on, but they cannot kiss. In India it is impossible, a man cannot touch even his wife in public... But in India women do not have to cover their arms, and belly can be seen. Once I was in India with a friend of mine and one day we put on a skirt, and I can tell you, we were followed by a man for almost three hours. So it is a question of culture.

But in general, this rule serves to protect a woman, I would say. Maybe it also depends on a culture. I come from a country where people are very reserved, and men in my country are desperate because they would like so much to learn to flirt with a woman but they do not know how... most of them would not talk to a woman they do not know on the street and so on. Of course there are exceptions, but in general, it is like that. But when I moved to Paris I saw that it is much different, and as there are many people from arabic, Indian, african countries, I could see the difference, because they, in general, do not have any problem with communication with a woman. I would say that it is because in their countries the relations in a family are much warmer than in my country, or at least if I compare it with my family and my friends families. I have a friend (woman) who is from Maroc, she is very beautiful and lots of men ask her for her phone number on the street; I told her, it is incredible, how many men ask you to go on a date with them. She told me, this is nothing, you should have seen in Maroc, it is much worse, when you go on a street, unless you go with a man, men stop you on the street all the time...

Also, I was told, by friends who spend a lot of on time in India or Arabic countries, that, for example, it is dangerous sometimes for a woman only to make friends with a man, in case he falls in love with her and she does not want to marry him, he can become very fanatic after, and even pay money to someone to rape her, just to take revenge on her because she did not want him. Also men from these countries who live in Europe told me this.

So I think now you understand better. I do not know whether Islam (Koran or sunna) impose this rule, but if so, It must be because God knows the hot blodded nature of people there, although I am aware that the hot blooded nature is a cliche to a certain extent, still, there is a lot of truth in it. Because I come from a "cold blooded" country:)

2. This is also a reply why a women has to cover her body,if you see a women covered like that and compare it with a woman wearing normal clothes, which one is more sexy? Which one would flirt with if you were a man? Although many muslim women cheat, they cover their head and chest, but in such a way that they are still very beautiful and sexy... As regards the way some women cover up their bodies, really from head to toe that you see only their eyes, this is, I was told be muslim men, exagerated, and Islam does not   have such a rule, so it is again a culture thing.

In the beginning, there was no such rule, but then the Prophet Mohammed started to cover head of his wives, because as he was a very important person who got official and an official visits all the time, he wanted to protect his wives from stares and remarks from men who came to see him. Later on, this rule was extended to all muslim women.

3. The question of virgins in heavens... I do not think that there will be any sex life in heaven, as the paradise is, as Koran says, unimaginable for us, and it is to no avail to try to understand what it is like. But, I guess he wanted to motivate people  to behave according to the precepts of islam, and beautiful eternal sex with a virgin is a good motivation, I would say. Personally, I like sex, but I do not give so much importance to it as men usually do, I guess I am not the only woman like that, so I guess Prophet used the sex promise only to men. Also, I am not sure, that in Prophets time, anyone would care about woman' s sexual pleasure, it is quite a recent thing, in fact. Did you know that in prophet' s time a woman had NO VALUE? It was normal to kill a newborn girl, because everyone wanted to have boys. Islam in fact improved a status of a woman, by giving her right to inherit I guess one third of the property of her husband, and also  because he said that sex outside marriage is a sin. Because at that time, it was normal to sleep with a woman without marriage, man did not need to marry a woman in order to get the right to sleep with her. And of course he has forbidden to kill newborn girls.

4.To hide a woman in a house, and paint the windows so that no one can see her through a window? Islam does not say that. On the other hand, I always put the curtains, because, in my room, where I am always reading something at my desk by the window, because I hate people going by staring at me:)

5. Four wives for a man: Prophet suggests that the best is to have only one wife, but if a man is capable to marry more of them, he can, but there is one condition, he must give them the same amount of attention, material things, and so on. If one woman has a house, he has to buy a house to all of them, there must be 100% equality. It is quite a challenge... Also, Mohammed made wars, and in wars a lot of men died, so logically there were less men than women, and if it was not possible for a man to marry more women, all these widows would have to live alone. Another condition to polygamy is: a man can marry another woman, BUT his first wife must agree with it. Unfortunately, due to a high level of corruption in arabic countries, if a man pays some money to an administrative officer, second marriage is possible even without the assent of his first wife.

Anyway, at that time it was normal to marry more wives, and some men had even 20 wives or more. Prophet limited this number to 4 while stating that is is best to marry only one woman.

6. As regards the rape, I do not know what to think about it. You need 4 man witness, and the burden is on a woman to prove that she was violated; BUT if the burden was not on her, she might very easily accuse any men that he raped her and it would be up to him to prove that it' s not true. And the penalty is I guess a lapidation. SO like this a lot of innocent men might be lapidated. It is better to let live a guilty man that to kill an innocent man, isn' t it?The very sad thing is, that in many countries, not only in islamic countries, but in India, as I know, as well, if a woman is raped, it is a shame for all family, ane very often, the pressure of people around her is so high that finally she commits a suicide. But, in my country, (I come from central Europe) it is not easy for a woman neither, when she is raped and goes to the police, very often policemen treat her like a prostitute, without any compassion, and so on. Rape is a source of a great shame for a women and most of them hide the fact that they were raped. But I am sure, if women cover up their bodies and do not walk alone in the streets, there will be much less of rape cases. Unfortunately, very often, it is family members who rape them, in most of the cases, not only inislamic countries but everywhere.

7. In mosques women pray in a separate area in order to concentrate well on the prayers, because they might be distracted by sexual attraction to someone.

8. You live in a different world so of course it is difficult for you to accept all of this. But if you were born in a NORMAL islamic society, let' s not talk about extremes, maybe it wouldnot be such a big burden. As I was told, yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy. And no, in muslim countries women should NOT be beaten by their husbands. There is one sourate in the Koran that talks about that, if a woman does not obey a man (for example, has found a lover, and so on), a man can do three things: talk with her about what she' s doing wrong, "separate their bedrooms" and, yes, beat her, but the the arab word used for that means something like "strike her very lightly" so that she realises she' s doing sth wrong, so the Koran does not give right to a man to beat up her wife. Unfortunately, it happens...all around the world. If someone says that a man can beat a women, he is exagerating and acting againts what the Coran teaches.

As far as I know, the New Testament says like men have to obey church, and women have to obey their husbands. They must really obey them but men must treat them well, it is just like islam, only in our western societies we have changed this rule, and a woman can dominate a man.
Do you know, in which European country women are most emancipated? In Germany. And a German  female friend of mine told me that now German women complain that German men are kind of... feminized, which is not sexy at all, she complained:)

I hope I gave you satisfactory answers to your questions... But as you can see it is only my point of view.

[anelie.]

I just talked with a muslim friend and I was wrong with the rape thing. In fact the 4 witness rule does not apply to the case of a raped woman. It is like this: IF a man sees her wife have sex with another man, he needs 4 witnesses to prove it, if he wants her to be punished. The same goes for a woman that see her husband having sex with another woman...

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Hi Anelie

Thanks for taking the time to explain Islam.  I must say you sound quite supportive of Islam and the Prophet, and your note above seems to justify the oppression of women in muslim and Indian cultures.

Personally, it doesn't matter how many cutlures or religions share the same values, or who issued the orders, or what an ancient holy book says, it is unfair, unacceptable, inhuman and unethical to treat anyone less than others on the basis of gender (or sexual orientation or race).

To quote from your note:
"yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy."

Looking after someone does not reserve the right to dominate the person. And if anyone believes that happiness is being taken care of by someone who dominates them, then the person needs to do some growing up.

Again thanks for your post, but I really doubt you can convince anyone on this forum that Islam is a fair and simple religion as you painted it above.  Certainly not me.

Good luck with whatever you decide to follow.  We all have free will.

Venus

[abu-usaama]

Hi Anelie

Thanks for taking the time to explain Islam.  I must say you sound quite supportive of Islam and the Prophet, and your note above seems to justify the oppression of women in muslim and Indian cultures.

Personally, it doesn't matter how many cutlures or religions share the same values, or who issued the orders, or what an ancient holy book says, it is unfair, unacceptable, inhuman and unethical to treat anyone less than others on the basis of gender (or sexual orientation or race).

To quote from your note:
"yes, a muslim women is dominated by a man, but she has a very good life, because their man take a very good care of them, and their are happy."

Looking after someone does not reserve the right to dominate the person. And if anyone believes that happiness is being taken care of by someone who dominates them, then the person needs to do some growing up.

Again thanks for your post, but I really doubt you can convince anyone on this forum that Islam is a fair and simple religion as you painted it above.  Certainly not me.

Good luck with whatever you decide to follow.  We all have free will.

Venus

The taking care of the women is dominating them. This isnt a matter of treating "less" anyone. The reality is, there are people in authority and those who are under that authority. The one who is charged with authority in the family is the man. The very fact he takes care of the woman necesitates that he has authority over her. She is no "less" a person.

"the man is not like the woman." this is a reality accepted by common sense, sociology, religion, and biology. Men and women are different, therefore if they were to be treated the same legally, would be unjust. That is why the woman is required to wear the hijab(veil) and the man is not. That is why the woman is recommended to play a more homely role, and the man is not. That is why the man is required to provide for his wife, whereas the opposite is not (required.)

[Colden]

"the man is not like the woman." this is a reality accepted by common sense, sociology, religion, and biology.

The only difference is physical attributes and I think it is very very stubborn and immature not to accept social change. If you've ever studied sociology then you would be familiar with social stratification and how it is very difficult for someone who is born into an oppressed community or family such as this to make it up the ladder. Thinking like this will only hinder people's abilities to live a better life and for true equality. This is classic authoritarianism that these women are forced and tricked into living in! Not good for society.

[anelie.]

venus goddess: yes, I am supportive of Islam. But I am not writing to convince someone
that Islam is the best way. Although I really like Islam. I don' t need others to share my point of view, but I like to discuss. I know that this forum is not islam oriented but the question was asked and I guess all replies are permitted, not only antiislamic ones:)

As regards the domination of women by men, do you know why I have nothing against women ( or lets say me) being dominated by men (my husband)? Because in my family it is my mother who dominates my father, so I know what it is like.

I am a very independent person, I have spent many years abroad, alone, far away from home, not depending on anyone, earning my own money, renting a flat, having relationships, I could do what I wanted and I was happy like that. But the feeling that I have now, while being "dominated" by my husband, is uncomparable and I would not change it, so I talk from personal experience.  Yes it is him who dominates, but at the same time he tries to do his best to fulfill my wishes etc  and we have a very nice relationship. I would not go back... Maybe it is difficult to understand for someone who hasn't experienced it. But of course it is a very personal thing, if islamic way of doing things suits me it does not mean that everyone must like it. It also mean that people are different, and not only in physical attributes:)

Equality or domination? Of course every relationship is based on a compromise and mutual understanding of each other. You must take into consideration each other' s feelings and always try not to hurt your partner. And personally, to give authority to a woman over her husband, it sounds strange to me.

Even in my family, where the roles of my parents are to a certain extent reversed, I act differently when I talk with my mum or with my dad. There is a difference, and I guess in every family it is like that. As if with my mum I can talk in a more relaxed way, but to my dad I would not say the same thing, because I am a little bit "afraid" of him, I don't know how to describe it. Why? Because I feel that it is HIM who in reality has the authority...

I feel the difference even without thinking about Islam...

Colden: how can you say that the only difference is physical attributes? Although I live in a society where everyone has the same rights and obligations, I take it a FACT that men and women are different, and not only in physical attributes. Of course, it might be because men and women have different roles in society and a girl is taught to behave like a girl and vice versa, we impose on them their social role.

[Synergy]

I believe in equality.... male and female aspects of the universe are in harmony... (ie: one side of the yin yang is not larger than the other!)  This is not a pie chart! lol 

If women are required to cover their heads in Islam.... I believe men should have to as well! I bet if men in Islam had to wear the hijab for even ONE day, they would abolish the rule altogether because of how uncomfortable and restricting it is!

If men can marry 4 wives, then women should be able to marry 4 husbands if they choose! Since women are supposed to be allowed to both own their own property and hold a career in Islam, then as long as they can pay for the 4 husbands (the  same as the husband has to pay for the 4 wives) then it should be allowed.

Men and women should have equal say in the relationship and family decisions

Men and women should share equally the household work (especially if both people are working outside the home) And either party should be able to be the career one or the home one (ie: the man could stay home and care for the children)

If men can walk in public without worry of being attacked by women, it should be the same for women.... that just goes to show that MEN are the ones who have no self control - but they blame the women for their compulsion to attack them! 


The rules in Islam were brought into effect in a time when women were worthless... and even though the rules gave women a bit more freedom than they had... the rules that were imposed were still indicative of times - if Muhammed had delcared that women all of a sudden had full freedom same as the men, then he would have been laughed at by the men of the times.  They need to wake up in the 21st century already!

[Colden]

The only differences between men and women as far as the universe is concerned is that they are polar opposites. The Chokmah and Binah forces. The universe has to be polar to have balance and we see these forces in everything including our astral bodies and astral experiences.

[AmbientSound]

Freedom is a state of mind, not a statute or law. Freedom is choice. And choices are what we must make, all the time. If we spend all our time and energy worrying about what everyone else is doing and trying to control them to do what we think is right, then we are cheating ourselves out of valuable life lessons. Therefore, we must choose our own values and make our own choices accordingly, and let others do the same.

[Mustardseed]

Just so much talk and explaining "in theory and according to the sunnah and the koran" and bla bla. In real life Islam is a religion of suppression and women have virtually NO real rights. Please see the following video...................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iOrrNY4Q-c&feature=related

and cry.............


and if you are interested watch the rest.................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCpXmfmLuzc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi1bDms5OfM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d-A8au4cyI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owCE8FYgASU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoPUNL7ts6E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1teDaaKlxU&feature=related

[Mustardseed]

Women and Islam, Men and Islam, Children and Islam......to me it seems all to be the same. Lets instead talk about LIFE and ISLAM, ................what is LIFE like in an Islamic country.

I am fully aware that most Muslims abhor the unjust deeds done in the name of Islam. They defend their religion with a gusto. In the process they inevitably bring up the argument that crimes are also committed in the name of Christianity.........this is their main line of justification. The problem is, that while it is true that crimes have been committed in the name of Christianity, i.e. witch hunts, Crusades, and the inquisition etc, it is a thing of the past. IT does not happen anymore, but ceased somewhere in the 1600s, when the west slowly grew and became CIVILIZED.

As Christianity developed and matured, and as it allowed its followers freedom of thought and expression, many left the faith and created what is now the western world. A system that is at least to some degree free. It has its faults and its grotesque "sideshows" but generally speaking.................. it is a free world. You Muslims women who post here for the most parts LIVE in the west, one might ask WHY. If you love Islam so much and if you are so eager to live the Muslim dream, why not immigrate to a Muslim state. It is obvious isn't it...............because in a Muslim state you will become oppressed by SHARIA, because Islam  did not evolve, and because it is totalitarian in nature. It is a political system, manufactured to control and oppress a populace, which it does very well. In Islamic countries, men are given power over women, and Mullahs and Immams, are given the power over ordinary people. That is a lot of power to be given to man.

It is so easy to defend the Principle of Islam, yet most of you who do so have no indebth understanding of your own Religion.  Tell me Anelie....have you read the Koran in its entirety, how about the Sunnah. Have you studied the theories and Hadith interpretations by which you are expected to live, such as Bukhari and Muslim etc. Do you have an up to date understanding of the various Fathwas issued to date...........I would guess no. Maybe I am wrong..then tell me.

So if you have read the above and are up to date on your own religion and what it actually teaches lets talk about that. If not maybe you should. Maybe you should study your own religion and what it actually claims as the truth, before you defend it. As of now you tend to defend something you have only a perifial knowledge about, a glorified personal interpretation of what you "would like" Islam to be.

It is not a realistic description of what Islam IS.

Regards Mustardseed

[Stookie]

Sad stuff:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418025,00.html

"A 17-year-old Pakistani girl forced to marry a 45-year-old when she was only nine was reportedly killed by her parents, according to the Weekend Australian.

The murder has intensified despair among human rights workers in Pakistan over a recent spate of "honor killings," in which two women and three teenage school girls were buried alive in Baluchistan Province because they wanted to marry the men of their choice.

Saira Nusrat Bibi was successfully fighting a legal battle to have her marriage annulled. As she left court in the Punjabi city of Sahiwal, she was surrounded by a group of men reportedly sent by her parents, and shot in front of police, The Australian reported.

The Baluchistan case was worsened by an attempt by a member of the country's national parliament, Senator Israr Ullah Zehri, to defend it, telling colleagues that "these are centuries-old traditions and I will continue to defend them," The Australian reports."

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

This is sickening - hanging a 17 year old woman because she was abused and raped by a government official.  These people have no compassion for human life, and absolutely no logical or rational thinking whatsoever.  How can anyone defend a religion such as this?  Anelie, how would you feel if you or your daughter were in that position?

[Synergy]

That makes me soooooo deeply mad inside.  To execute a young girl because she was a victim! 

I wonder what happened to the government official!?  Probably nothing...

[abu-usaama]

you know what makes me laugh?

how ignorant people like you on this forum are. you know nothing about Islam. you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.



go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

[AmbientSound]

Insults aren't going to solve anything.

[Mustardseed]

you know what makes me laugh?

You are not laughing Usama you are angry and upset, and aggressive.

how ignorant people like you on this forum are.

We are not ignorant Usama, for the most part we are well educated, knowledgeable, and experienced. Many have educations probably surpassing yours, and a fair lot of us have experienced more facets of life than you.

you know nothing about Islam.

Well here I admit that I am not sure that the majority on the list knows about Islam. I can assure you that I KNOW. Though you naturally do not believe it I have lived a major part of my life in Islamic countries, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan Pakistan and Malaysia. I have studied The Koran and the Sunnah as well as major parts of the Hadiths under the guidance of Islamic scholars. I have a in debth understanding of LIFE in an Islamic country. I KNOW about Islam.

you know nothing of the differences between Islam and culture. you people are the truly the most ignorant people on the planet.

Well Usama that is an allegation, I realise that there is a difference, but my argument is not with culture my argument is with ISLAM. As far as being the most ignorant people on the planet................well..........ummmm.....whatever  

honor killings has nothing to do with Islam, whatsoever. t he very fact im mentioning this makes me feel like a crapbag, because i have to stoop down to your level of stupidity for a  brief moment.

Dont feel like a crapbag Usama. No reason  . Honor killings in itself may have nothing to do with Islam according to the doctrine of Zina, it should be punishable for both sexes, but the fact remains that under ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE it is accepted as a necessary evil and very rarely is a man convicted for this. Thats what the problem is. Islam fails to protect the innocent

you actually think, for some reason, that the states in the Muslim world that are supported by America and have been waging a constant war against Shariah, have anything to do with Shariah! Wow! You know a lot!!

This statement makes no sense to me, could you elaborate.

If there was an actual Muslim state, free from the yokage of secular tyranny and American dominance, I would go there and I wouldnt hesitate!

The fact is that there are several countries that claim to be under sharia............not American dominance by a long shot,


Here we go.

Islamic countries:

Countries which recognize Islam as their official religion.

Afghanistan (Islamic state)
Algeria
Bahrain
Bangladesh
Brunei
Comoros
Egypt
Indonesia (recognize Islam as the six recognized religion, with Protestantism, Catholic, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. Indonesia use Islamic jurisprudence in marriage and another jurisprudence.
Iran (Islamic state)
Iraq
Jordan
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Mauritania
Morocco
Oman
Pakistan (Islamic state)
Qatar
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Saudi Arabia (Islamic kingdom)
Somalia
Somaliland
Tunisia[5]
United Arab Emirates
Yemen (Islamic state)

I think I missed a few, but what the heck........

Soooo.....go Usama .......go, do not hesitate   if you do not believe that there is one such state why not convince your fellow Muslim brothers in one of these countries, to make one. Change from within. Why are YOU living in a western country..............I will tell you why. You have a snowballs chance in HELL of making a difference, but will most likely be killed by your fellow MUSLIMS if you criticize their interpretation of Islam. So much for free speech. The only place you can speak up is among the KAFFIR, the only place you are safe from persecution from your fellow Muslims is among the KAFFIR.

as for you mustardseed, youre just an arrogant dweeb that gets delight out of expressing your conjectural opinions and crap.

Wow Osama, an arrogant Dweeb, for the uninitiated. Here is the definition:

Dweeb: an unsophisticated, obnoxious, person, (with very few exceptions, male) often a newbie, who, through ignorant posting, annoys, irritates and otherwise frustrates the regulars in a chat room or other online communication forum. Dweebs are often interested in meeting members of the opposite sex and pursuing women by exaggerating and boasting about themselves along with other annoying and inappropriate behavior.

My humility forbids me to speak of myself, my only argument against the above is the term Ignorant. I am not ignorant Usama.....not ignorant at all, on the contrary i know what I am talking about. You know that and I know that.......so drop the insults.

go ahead, go worship freedom and your man-made nonsense!

Thankyou very much

Regards Mustardseed

[AmbientSound]

My definition of life:

Birth begins experience. Experience forms definitions. Definitions form values. Values channel awareness. Awareness forms goals. Goals form paths. Paths form choices. Choices form experiences. And death breaks the cycle.

Killing is just another way of giving up.

Liars cheat themselves out of trust and friendship, and therefore spiritual evolution.

There is no heaven, it does not exist. For heaven is a state of being, and that state cannot be sustained. If you put one little red brush stroke on a canvas, it stands out, but when you paint the entire canvas red, all you end up with is a red canvas. And if all you see is red, then red ceases to be a color. That is the state of hell, not heaven. If all you see is good, then good ceases to exist for you, and everything bad stands out. Good should be in the foreground, not the background.

[edit] actually, there is a heaven, but it is not as we are taught in the Good Books of this world. Heaven is the state of having learned all the lessons- knowing where to be and when, having full awareness of everything that goes on in the Universe, knowing yourself completely and thoroughly, being aware of how different things affect you, etc.

No offense to anyone. Obviously, these are my beliefs, and if they don't ring true to you, ignore me.

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Mustardseed - I applaud you for keeping your cool and maintaining your integrity under the circumstances.  You are setting the standards and should be proud of yourself.