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Your thoughts on suicide.

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Ivaldi

From a logical view suicide is ok in this problem below.

A child is born and cared for but later on in life he became a burden for his family.

If the child died: For the better.

1. The family would become better.
2. Mother wouldn't have to worry anymore.
3. Father wouldn't have to put up with the brat anymore.
4. Brothers and sisters would be happy the flaw is gone.
5. Family would be much more happy without that flaw in their house.
6. The dead child was born slow, bullied by classmates, later became full of hate, could no longer feel emotion, never like his gender, dropped out and disgraced his family. Can you see why suicide is ok now?

El-Bortukali

if you want to do it,then just do it.
Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

Stookie

One thing the child has yet to consider is that life changes. A wonderful adult-life can come out of awful times as a child. When you're young it can be hard to see life past 17 or 18. Like those Columbine kids. They were upset that they had been picked on or whatever, but they were about to graduate and start a new life. Those kids that picked on them wouldn't be a part of their life anymore, and they probably would have moved on and forgot about it, got married and had a family, and all that stuff would be so far in the past it's laughable. When you're in the moment it can be hard to see the light.

Just because life is miserable for a period of time dosen't mean it's always like that. And when you get through it, you are stronger and more fit for the world than most. Suicide is to chicken-out on life.

CFTraveler

Quote from: IvaldiFrom a logical view suicide is ok in this problem below.

A child is born and cared for but later on in life he became a burden for his family.

If the child died: For the better.

1. The family would become better.
2. Mother wouldn't have to worry anymore.
3. Father wouldn't have to put up with the brat anymore.
4. Brothers and sisters would be happy the flaw is gone.
5. Family would be much more happy without that flaw in their house.
6. The dead child was born slow, bullied by classmates, later became full of hate, could no longer feel emotion, never like his gender, dropped out and disgraced his family. Can you see why suicide is ok now?
I don't believe this is a logical way of looking at this because it makes an incredibly wrong assumption: That people don't have emotions.  Since emotions are what drive most of us (especially people that don't think they have emotions) then this makes no logical sense.
1. First assumption: The child became a burden for the families.
A family is what is supposed to take care of children- a man and a woman can be independent, but as soon as there is a child- you know you have a family.  I was married for 16 years before having a child and we considered ourselves a couple- until our son was born.  Now we are a family.  There is a sense of connection with our respective families (each other's parents, uncles, etc. that just wasn't there before.)
2.  Second assumption:  Mother wouldn't have to worry anymore?  You obviously know nothing about mothers to make an assumption like that.  If my son died, I can assure you that the only thing I would worry about would be how to kill myself without hurting my husband too badly.  I hope your mother hasn't made you feel like she doesn't care about you- but the assumption that she wouldn't worry about anymore is not only unrealistic, but horribly WRONG!
3.  Father never had to put up with the brat in the first place, if he didn't want to.  That's why there are so many fatherless children in this world, because most cultures support the idea of the father being 'absent' via work, sports, the bar, and whatever other activity they pursue.  It is only on this day and age that the value of fathers in their children's lives are taken into account, and they are stigmatized as too 'new agy'.
4. I am one of 4 children, and although I have fought with nearly all of my siblings, sometimes bitterly, and don't necessarily like some of them.  Yet if any of them died, I would be terribly depressed and would grieve like you have no idea.
Quote5. Family would be much more happy without that flaw in their house.
I am sorry you see yourself that way, but it is a wrong way of seeing yourself.  A human being is not a flaw- A human being can have flaws- all human beings have flaws, and most can be corrected.

Quote6. The dead child was born slow, bullied by classmates, later became full of hate, could no longer feel emotion, never like his gender, dropped out and disgraced his family. Can you see why suicide is ok now?
No, for the reasons that I said before. And by the way, hate is an emotion, an emotion used to mask hurt and loss and grief.  It is better to feel the feelings you have, (at least admit them) and work at making your life better, not by obliterating yourself, but by exorcising the point of view that you have about your life.
You are not a flaw, or a mistake.  You can make mistakes, but you are not one.
Your family may treat you like crap, (and it's an assumption I'm making, since you had to learn that wrong self-view somewhere) but they do love you, and if they don't then there is something seriously wrong with them.
Suicide is almost never ok, because it comes from a position of isolation, of disconnection- and you are not disconnected or isolated from the rest of the universe.  No matter what some have told you or you believe about yourself.

greatoutdoors

Ivaldi,

Presuming you are speaking of yourself, my first question is do you do drugs? Any kind, booze, speed, pot, whatever -- any of it? I am not preaching "right" or "wrong" but that stuff can seriously mess over your mind. If you are seriously thinking of suicide then you owe it to yourself to be sure it is your decision, and not made by the chemicals in your body.

Quote...full of hate, could no longer feel emotion...
Hate is an emotion, a bad one. You may also be feeling sadness, persecuted, misunderstood and absolutely alone. All of those are emotions.

One other (that you may deny) is very much there -- selfishness. Your example has nothing to do with thinking of others and everything to do with fixating on yourself!  :exclamation:

Have you ever said to yourself, "It's not fair! Why me?" or perhaps, "I should have that -- it's not right that they don't give it to me!" News flash: the world doesn't owe you a thing, and life is most certainly not fair! I could write a book, but I'll spare you the details. Just stop thinking about what everyone else owes you and start thinking how you can earn it yourself!

Stookie nailed it:
QuoteSuicide is to chicken-out on life.

Also consider this: it is very likely that your family has no idea how you are feeling, or what emotions are running through you. It would be very selfish of you to chicken out without giving them at least a chance to understand where you are coming from.

And for yourself, overcoming your selfishness may be just exactly the lesson that you are in this world to learn! Who knows? And if you decide to play hooky and skip the lesson, odds are you will just be sent right back to do it all again. Why not save the extra laps and learn it this time through!  :wink:

Suicide is a tool we have available to us, but its misuse doesn't get us anywhere!

Tantalord

In all the misery is very hard to believe that the life can have a brighter view...You are stuck in those bad feelings and emotions that you cannot see the love,joy and happiness of this world...Surely when you read this,you will find it nonsense,but the person who is telling you that was in the same position as you are now.
Darkness is my Strength.Light is my Guide

GANAMOHA

no If I were screwed up I'd say to keep the kid around so I can feel better about myself but then again that would be screwed up :). no offense or anything but you need to go to a therapist or something because you are a deepression case unless you are posting these as what if questions.
I stand at the threshold of what could be a new world

Astir

It's not a matter of right or wrong, understanding or not understanding. You probably can't even imagine the sh!tty hands that some people are dealt in this world...who actually want only to live.
It's a matter of weakness. Are you weak, or whoever you're talking about, are they weak? Don't be so weak that you can't just wait around for that good thing to happen...I promise, it always comes. It just hasn't yet, it always takes its time.

Nostic

Why do we so often try to guilt people into not committing suicide? Do you really think that's the best way?

You know, no matter how bad things have been in your life, you have to remember, it's all in the past. You've made it through and you're still here. That's strength!

There is nothing worse than having no hope and never seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But, you keep putting one foot in front of the other, moving, growing, learning, and that light WILL show-up. It must. It's very tempting to want to kill yourself when things have been bad for awhile, but who is to say that your problems will end with physical death? In the long run, things may end-up being more difficult. For instance, you wouldn't want to go through what you've already been through again, would you? What if that were to happen if you decided to cut your "earth lessons" short?

WindGod

Quote from: IvaldiFrom a logical view suicide is ok in this problem below.
................................
Can you see why suicide is ok now?

With all respect, I'd say no. I see a list of challenges that can be overcome and result in helping one to progress.

If the person is a victim, then they need to find outside assistance and help. A social counselor or even the authorities if necessary.

Make a serious effort to learn martial arts. As the person's ability to destroy their opponent increases, so does the aura of intimidation increase to deter the cowardly bully. The positive result is to prevent confrontation and the increased self esteem and spiritual progression.

And yes, I fully agree that any substance abuse has to stop.
Take up a sport or activity that requires focus , concentration and clarity of mind.

Any extreme sport will do, then if you die accidentally, it will be in an artistic way and help others in the extreme sport to improve safety procedures and equipment.

Start a part-time job, opportunities for little to no risk investment are so great. A young person can really plan for an early retirement these days.

Ok , so this is one plan:

Find a counselor, get  advice and legal help if necessary.

Study martial arts.

Start work, invest money in real-estate and/or low risk mutual funds.

RETIRE early, travel, have fun doing extreme sports.

Have a nice life,
WG   :grin:    (I'm serious, this is a sincere effort to offer advice.)
______________________________________________
i'm not really a windgod, i just like to eat beans and love to sail
Are weather forcasters psychic?

Logic

Quote from: IvaldiFrom a logical view suicide is ok in this problem below.

A child is born and cared for but later on in life he became a burden for his family.

If the child died: For the better.

1. The family would become better.
2. Mother wouldn't have to worry anymore.
3. Father wouldn't have to put up with the brat anymore.
4. Brothers and sisters would be happy the flaw is gone.
5. Family would be much more happy without that flaw in their house.
6. The dead child was born slow, bullied by classmates, later became full of hate, could no longer feel emotion, never like his gender, dropped out and disgraced his family. Can you see why suicide is ok now?

You have no idea the value of human life, and I would like to see you in that position.
We are not truly lost, until we lose ourselves.

paker7

Your life your choice.

Suicide = one way road to an unknown place  :brickwall: .

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

GroovyGoddess

Quote from: Nostic
There is nothing worse than having no hope and never seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. But, you keep putting one foot in front of the other, moving, growing, learning, and that light WILL show-up. It must. It's very tempting to want to kill yourself when things have been bad for awhile, but who is to say that your problems will end with physical death? In the long run, things may end-up being more difficult.

This is a lesson that has taken me a long time to learn. Depression has been a mental addiction for me as I am sure it has been for many others.

Many of us fail to realize how many people are going through the same type of situations as we are. We think that our suffering is totally separate from the suffering of others. When we have negative thoughts, we lose our connection to the source and life seems to be chaotic.

I remember a time in my life when things were really dark in my life. It seemed like the darkness was everywhere, and I was getting lost in it. In fact, I decided to give up on life. I just stopped caring about things and let myself go.

But then I realized one day that life wasn't about me. I began to realize how selfish I had been and that I was always focusing on my own needs.
I had focused all of my attention on the bad and that was all I could see.
I finally realized the simple truth that whatever I focused my attention on the most was the destination that I would arrive at. I decided from that day forth that I was going to learn how to appreciate life for the good things. I became grateful for everything that I had and just happy that I had been put here to learn these lessons. I'm grateful that I was special enough to be expressed in physical form (As we all are).

Lastly, I've learned that there is plenty of Light out there, but we have not learned to connect to it. As long as we let our egos destroy our connection to our universal source, we will struggle. But the Light is always waiting for us because it adores us more than anything we can imagine. The only thing standing in our way of ultimate happiness is wrong thought.

The Entropic Mind

Its true that things can be pretty crappy for children sometimes. Ultimately, let a little, or even alot of time go by, and things get better. I just graduated a few weeks ago, and already life is dandy. Turn 18, get a job, move out, and you don't ever have to look back (preferably go to college though).

CANNIBALEX

i feel that if someone truely wants to die, they should have the freedom to do so.

i spent hours arguing this point with my theology teacher
There are 00110010 types of people in this world.
Those who understand binary mathematics and those who don't.

Mustardseed

Yesterday I had an amazing experience relating to this subject. It is one of the greatest and most wonderful experiences I ever had. It is here from my diary. Comments are well come.


21-6-06
Slept on my left side as I wanted to exit. That works best for me. After having drifted for 20 min, I had to cough, and became very alert, as I was laying there quietly after having coughed, the vibrations started coming. Suddenly my whole body started to relax and I began to fall and suddenly I had astral sight. I raised my right hand out of my body and stood up easily. Everything was peaceful and calm. I decided to make sure I was in my room. There was a book on the table beside the bed on the front of it. It said something in Latin, "bacilum comcillium" or something like it. I looked through the book but could not read it, think it was in Latin or something. I realized I was not in my own room. There was a window at the left, a door across from it and also another door to the right of the bed. The window had no glass pane. The sun was shining through the window. I went out the door and came into a small hall, went right and found myself in the street. It was a small street with a pedestrian walkway at each side. The feeling in this place was very peace full and uncannily calm. It was not the golden light that I have seen so often, but more a clear summer day feeling, and as soon as I was in the street I got sucked back. As I got sucked back in my body I thought that was it, felt very happy, but the vibrations started right away again.

This time I also came out of my body easily with no break in consciousness and was in the same room. This time I decided to do something different, and go through the other door and as I did I came into a small hallway. It looked like a pension. It led toward a glass door maybe 20m. I wanted to have some fun and started running toward the door and dove right through the glass into the street. I busted into the middle of the street and lifted my hands and started to praise God in a very strange song. I was singing all about praise and thanking God, very strange actually, the words just kept coming to me, while I was twirling and then I started to levitate and rise toward the sky with my hands held up  to the sky. As I gained altitude I noticed a band who was practicing on the balcony or the top of a building to my left. They saw me and got very exited. I don't know why but I had the feeling they were having some sort of service or something because they were all in white. As I raised above them they were looking at me excitedly and kept playing. Then I got succeed back again.

It was very exiting. I just laid real still and as expected the vibrations came again after few seconds. Again I was in the same room, the book was on the table. This time I went out the window. I just crawled out into the street and went toward a small shop, coming up on the right side of the street. It was a baker and there were lots of people going in and out. A girl was on her way out and looked straight at me smiling. She was my height, reddish short hair and wore, a dark sort of trench coat, she started to walk down the road and I walked with her. As we walked quietly I asked her. "Am I in heaven"? She smiled mysteriously and said "yes, but in this place we all came here by our own hand". It was obvious she communicated to me that everyone here were suicide victims. I asked her "does that mean that I am going to one day commit suicide". She turned toward me and smiled and said "no" with a big smile, I asked is there another place, she kept walking and started to talk excitedly, it was very mysterious she said something like "oh yes in Ra aum ....wow the things that is happening there it are wonder full", the impression was that she had knowledge of a different location, and what was happening in this different location, but could not go there.

As we walked down the road, it turned left and slightly down hill, and we passed a man in a black dune jacket and wearing a knitted black hat, and sun glasses. He was very surprised to see me, almost stunned. He did not look at me. I wanted to talk more to her but as soon as we had passed him, he turned and came back to us. He had pulled his hat down and his jacket up so only his glasses were visible. He was very exited and grabbed my arm and tugged at it, but I did not want to talk to him. It was as if he was very insistent and kept tugging at me as if he just had to talk to me, the tugging was irritating and I started to feel my arm and was reminded of my body and started to have the vibrations, I kept looking at the girl and she kept smiling at me as I felt them getting stronger and she faded. I was back in my body immediately and this time I did not want to go again. I got up to write my diary. (end diary)

I was so exited and happy. It was as if I was floating on a cloud and coming back was a big let down. The feeling stayed with me for a few hours. A feeling of peace and assurance, as well as excitement. I felt like I had seen something wonderful and her face kept coming to me.
Words.....there was a time when I believed in words!

GroovyGoddess

Quote from: CANNIBALEXi feel that if someone truely wants to die, they should have the freedom to do so.

If it were not for the other people in my life that need me, I would choose not to live.

El-Bortukali

Quote from: CANNIBALEXi feel that if someone truly wants to die, they should have the freedom to do so.

i spent hours arguing this point with my theology teacher

True. if people are trying to legalize Abortion, so why not suicide? a person goes into a little chamber, gets gased, dies quickly and bam, the world suffers less from over population.

win-win situation.
Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

thenoob

Yes, very true El
I am planning my own suicide for the fall / late summer.
It's much harder than anyone thinks. You can't just end it all. It takes lots of research and will, just like anything else.

I want to have an OBE however... I think if I could have OBE's, suicide would suddenly become irrelevent. It would prove to me that there's so much out there... It would prove to me that the mind and body are separate. It would be a very life-affirming thing.

So I guess that's why I want to OBE, to feel I'm not alone

At the very least all this meditation is making me spiritually prepared, though I admit I have a long way to go.

paker7

Quote from: thenoobI am planning my own suicide for the fall / late summer.

Are you 100% sure that you will end up in a better world/place/situation ?

Are you 100% sure that you can't be happy here in this physical uniwerse ?

Are you 100% sure that you will not win 100M$ in a lotery one week after your planned suicide ?

Are you 100% sure that you can't fall in love and have a good life with many wonderful children and grandchildren who will love you very much ?

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

El-Bortukali

Like  the moderators say on the " Spirituality & Sexuality " thread. "Love" is an illusion. sex is an illusion".

what's the point of living for an illusion?

and he might 'fall in love' but who can assure the other person is going to fall for him?

There are too many people on the planet. if he doesn't have kids it's for the best.

(unless he has a HIGH IQ worthy passing over)
Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

paker7

Quote from: El-Bortukaliwhat's the point of living for an illusion?

What's the point of killing yourself because of an illusion (maya) ?

Quote from: El-Bortukaliand he might 'fall in love' but who can assure the other person is going to fall for him?

As long as he is happy (to give love) it can be pretty much irrelevant if he is loved by his woman or not.

Quote from: El-BortukaliThere are too many people on the planet. if he doesn't have kids it's for the best.

Now you are just being selfish.  :naughty:

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

El-Bortukali

QuoteWhat's the point of killing yourself because of an illusion (maya) ?

He can get a better soul contract.


QuoteAs long as he is happy (to give love) it can be pretty much irrelevant if he is loved by his woman or not.


That is pretty much non-existent. that kind of people.

How can somebody be happy for feeling an illusion?

matter of fact, happiness is an illusion heh.

QuoteNow you are just being selfish.  :naughty:
I'm being selfish because I'm being realistic?


Half the world is dying of aids, hunger, diseases, war, and he should bring more people to this planet?
Tá mo chroí istigh ionat

paker7

Quote from: El-Bortukali
QuoteWhat's the point of killing yourself because of an illusion (maya) ?

He can get a better soul contract.

Or not  :wink:

Quote from: El-Bortukali
QuoteAs long as he is happy (to give love) it can be pretty much irrelevant if he is loved by his woman or not.
That is pretty much non-existent. that kind of people.

You are speaking to one of them right now :wink:

Quote from: El-Bortukali
QuoteNow you are just being selfish.  :naughty:
I'm being selfish because I'm being realistic?

Half the world is dying of aids, hunger, diseases, war, and he should bring more people to this planet?

Why not ? He has all the same rights as anyone else.

Commoners believe - winners KNOW !

El-Bortukali

QuoteHe can get a better soul contract.

Or not  :wink:

Why not?

Quote
You are speaking to one of them right now :wink:

Congratulations i guess.



to the other one :

Because there's loads of humans, but few humans of high quality.


I don't consider that 'rights'.
Tá mo chroí istigh ionat