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Author Topic: Iran attack? Just Say No, Tony  (Read 9172 times)
Eol007
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« on: March 02, 2005, 07:27:17 »

'Iran attack? Just Say No, Tony

Tony Blair can't Say Sorry for taking us to war under false pretences. Now George Bush is talking about taking action against Iran. Perhaps Tony Blair can be encouraged to 'Just Say No' to George Bush on this occasion. OWOS is running a major campaign calling for Tony Blair to stop being an instrument of US foreign policy.'

See: http://www.owos.info/

Not exactly fresh baked bread news, but thought provoking all the same - what do you think?!

Best,


Stephen
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2005, 08:30:16 »

I think if we get through Iraq and Iran without civil problems, Syria should watch it's back.  huh
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2005, 08:30:16 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

Home of the best selling book Our Ultimate Reality.

Astral Projection, Metaphysics and many other subjects.

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LordoftheBunnies
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2005, 15:00:12 »

One has to wonder just how the Bush administration is going to keep scrounging up the money to perpetuate their delusional war on terror.  If they try attacking Iran and Syria, the economy could end up getting worse than it already is.  If things continue this way for much longer, America will go the way of all other superpowers that eventually let their influence go to their head.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03012005.html
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yothu
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2005, 15:02:00 »

Interesting. You know what I read in January 2003? -> http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html

It states at the beginning:
Quote
As one senior British official put it: `Everyone wants to go to Baghdad. Real men want to go to Tehran.'"


Much of this article turned out to be true. For example that Iraq's invasion is meant to be long-term for various reasons stated in this article.

Quote
'Iran attack? Just Say No, Tony


I second this.

Greetings
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 22:49:57 »

Quote from: LordoftheBunnies
One has to wonder just how the Bush administration is going to keep scrounging up the money to perpetuate their delusional war on terror.  If they try attacking Iran and Syria, the economy could end up getting worse than it already is.  If things continue this way for much longer, America will go the way of all other superpowers that eventually let their influence go to their head.

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts03012005.html


I think it's going to become a situation similar to what France saw before it's revolution. A huge divide will split the middle class as the rich get richer and everyone else suffers.

Wars make money for the rich. All those hundreds of billions of dollars spent on Iraq aren't going into Iraq... they're going into peoples' wallets. All the companies involved in the war effort are making cash out the butt. War has always done that.

Then a few billion dollars suddenly goes 'missing' :/

http://www.ariannaonline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-13767.html
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2005, 22:49:57 »



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Gandalf
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« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2005, 00:26:06 »

I think this is all just rhetoric from the bush administration.

This is because Iraq has been such a mess and so much more difficult than Bush ever thought it would be (remember the ineptly named 'mission acomplished' speech anyone?), that anything on a similar scale for iran is completely out of the question.

This war has actually shown the military limitations of the US more than anything.. the US military is already stretched to breaking point by Iraq and there is no way they could possibly afford to wage the same level of conflict in iran at the same time.. impossible.
That was probably the original plan, i'm sure, but iraq is turning out to be so costly, both in terms of money and lives, that a full scale attack of iran or even syria is totally out of the queston.. the army simply couldnt handle two iraqs on the go at the same time.

So they are resorting to secondary tactics, which is scare-mongering... only i dont think its really that scary... perhaps worst case scenario, they might afford to spare a few missile launches and air attacks on certain alleged facilities within the country, but thats about it.


As for Blair joining Bush again for Iran, I think that if he went for this a second time the British people really would lynch him!

Doug

PS Also,  taking potshots at Iran and Syria is not exactly what i call a sound strategy when you are trying to bring stability to Iraq. Have they ever bothered to look at the geography of the region? Iran shares one of the biggest borders with Iraq, with Syria close behind...  You need to be cultivating safe borders and a positive relationship with Iraq's neigbours if you want any hope of stopping suicide bombers and other fanatics from getting through, but US swaggering at Iran and Syria isnt going to help, in fact by doing that you will just create a situation that allows more of these people to slip through, while the Iranian and Syrian government do little to stop it. And if you think an all out invasion is going to help you've got another thing coming.. most likely an all out jihad.. not the best strategy under the circumstances.

I think a lot of people dont realise that there is a massive difference between Iraq an Iran. Far from all the crud about connections between al-queda and Iraq, the reality was that Iraq was a secular military dictatorship, that in fact fundamentalists like Bin Laden etc actually hated! They detested Sadam and Bathists as infidels and not proper muslims.
Iran on the other hand is an *islamic state*.. attack that and you are attacking Islam.. a WHOLE different kettle of fish.. the US is stirring the hornets nest with this strategy!
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« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2005, 17:49:10 »

Quote from: Eol007
'Iran attack? Just Say No, Tony

Tony Blair can't Say Sorry for taking us to war under false pretences. Now George Bush is talking about taking action against Iran. Perhaps Tony Blair can be encouraged to 'Just Say No' to George Bush on this occasion. OWOS is running a major campaign calling for Tony Blair to stop being an instrument of US foreign policy.'


Let terrorists get away with whatever they want. BE LIKE FRANCE!  rolleyes

Please. This "delusional war on terror" is a complete flop...  cheesy  You lefties are funny. Its incredible to me how you can only hope for the worst while completely ignoring any OBVIOUS accomplishments which repudiate your claims.
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« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2005, 18:07:34 »

Quote from: Gandalf
I think this is all just rhetoric from the bush administration.

This is because Iraq has been such a mess and so much more difficult than Bush ever thought it would be (remember the ineptly named 'mission acomplished' speech anyone?), that anything on a similar scale for iran is completely out of the question.

This war has actually shown the military limitations of the US more than anything.. the US military is already stretched to breaking point by Iraq and there is no way they could possibly afford to wage the same level of conflict in iran at the same time.. impossible.
That was probably the original plan, i'm sure, but iraq is turning out to be so costly, both in terms of money and lives, that a full scale attack of iran or even syria is totally out of the queston.. the army simply couldnt handle two iraqs on the go at the same time.

So they are resorting to secondary tactics, which is scare-mongering... only i dont think its really that scary... perhaps worst case scenario, they might afford to spare a few missile launches and air attacks on certain alleged facilities within the country, but thats about it.


As for Blair joining Bush again for Iran, I think that if he went for this a second time the British people really would lynch him!

Doug

PS Also,  taking potshots at Iran and Syria is not exactly what i call a sound strategy when you are trying to bring stability to Iraq. Have they ever bothered to look at the geography of the region? Iran shares one of the biggest borders with Iraq, with Syria close behind...  You need to be cultivating safe borders and a positive relationship with Iraq's neigbours if you want any hope of stopping suicide bombers and other fanatics from getting through, but US swaggering at Iran and Syria isnt going to help, in fact by doing that you will just create a situation that allows more of these people to slip through, while the Iranian and Syrian government do little to stop it. And if you think an all out invasion is going to help you've got another thing coming.. most likely an all out jihad.. not the best strategy under the circumstances.

I think a lot of people dont realise that there is a massive difference between Iraq an Iran. Far from all the crud about connections between al-queda and Iraq, the reality was that Iraq was a secular military dictatorship, that in fact fundamentalists like Bin Laden etc actually hated! They detested Sadam and Bathists as infidels and not proper muslims.
Iran on the other hand is an *islamic state*.. attack that and you are attacking Islam.. a WHOLE different kettle of fish.. the US is stirring the hornets nest with this strategy!



Sigh...  Wars are based on campaigns of which can have multitudes of missions. The invasion was complete and successful. IE -- Mission Accomplished. NEXT MISSION...  

Explain how Iraq is a mess again? It looks like a HUGE success from my non communist eyes. And I had to quote this twice it was so ridiculous,
Quote
This war has actually shown the military limitations of the US more than anything.. the US military is already stretched to breaking point by Iraq and there is no way they could possibly afford to wage the same level of conflict in iran at the same time.. impossible.
That was probably the original plan, i'm sure, but iraq is turning out to be so costly, both in terms of money and lives, that a full scale attack of iran or even syria is totally out of the queston.. the army simply couldnt handle two iraqs on the go at the same time.
 cheesy

Breaking point?  cheesy  cheesy Too costly?  cheesy Attacking Syria and Iran out of the question? OH, stop! I'm gonna pee my pants! Its good to know you're getting your news from "reputable" sources...

Quote
You need to be cultivating safe borders and a positive relationship with Iraq's neighbors if you want any hope of stopping suicide bombers and other fanatics from getting through,
 
That's right because these enemies will listen to a good sit down chat over noon tea! So we better not "swagger" or we'll look arrogant. Wouldn't want to do that. No sir.

Quote
the US is stirring the hornets nest with this strategy!
So what. Its ALREADY stirred. Kick it again then set it on fire. You may think pooping your pants and running away because the bad people are coming is the best way to deal with people who murder hundreds of school children and saw off people's heads for fun and profit. That might be OK with you commies and you can hide in your world of puppy dogs and rainbows all you want. Those of us with balls and a spine will take care of you... like we've always done.  But that's pretty damn sorry if you ask me. Lame, yellow and Frog eatin' sorry.
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Frank
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« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2005, 18:52:11 »

Hi:

Speaking to you on a personal level, I think the "Mad" in your username is rather apt.

Yours,
Frank
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Gandalf
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« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2005, 19:19:10 »

I think its revealing on your part that any critique of US policy is dismissed as being 'communist'. The old 'communist' accusation only serves to make you come across as the typical jingoistic gung-ho type who blindly swallows all the rhetoric and spin churned out to you, without ever stopping to question it; a typical stance of this type of person is to proclaim everything that doesnt agree with their limited world view 'communist'.

This line says it all:
Explain how Iraq is a mess again? It looks like a HUGE success from my non communist eyes

Its all a bit dim really.

Doug
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MadLordNad
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« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2005, 19:59:44 »

Quote from: Frank
Hi:

Speaking to you on a personal level, I think the "Mad" in your username is rather apt.

Yours,
Frank


You are correct. Quite mad and not gonna take it anymore.  evil

Quote
I think its revealing on your part that any critique of US policy is dismissed as being 'communist'. The old 'communist' accusation only serves to make you come across as the typical jingoistic gung-ho type who blindly swallows all the rhetoric and spin churned out to you, without ever stopping to question it; a typical stance of this type of person is to proclaim everything that doesnt agree with their limited world view 'communist'.

This line says it all:
Explain how Iraq is a mess again? It looks like a HUGE success from my non communist eyes

Its all a bit dim really.


Critique? It sounded more like craven terrorist appeasement to me.  And who made you the sole criticizer and denouncer? I'm calling you lefties out. You say the liberation and subsequent fervent popular elections in Iraq are wrong then what is right? More talking? Give me a break. Freedom is on the march and socialists can't stand it but won't admit they can't stand it. Your hypocrisy is obvious for all to see though and the Iraqis will not thank you for your inaction. The Lebanese will soon be free and so will the Iranians. Freedom isn't free but its certainly worth fighting for -- your fathers and grandfathers know that but they are remiss by letting you forget.

The day I give a crap what a bunch of terrorist apologists feel about me or what my "commie" comments make me look like to them is the day I shoot myself in the head. So don't hold your breath. Commie in this instance is a catch-all phrase for all America-hating whiny crybaby socialists -- its hardly limited at all.

Quote
blindly swallows all the rhetoric and spin churned out to you, without ever stopping to question it;
Only the blind question the obvious... perhaps a seeing-eye dog will help you understand the world better since you are only able to see what the terrorists and those who want them to win, want you to see.

Ignore the free Iraqis and Afghanis, protests in Lebanon and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Ignore Libya giving up their WMD plans and many other GOOD things happening. But none of that matters because PEOPLE ARE DIEING! OH NO! News flash commie -- They were dieing before , but now they've got a cause to better themselves. If I'm Jingo because I want them to succeed then I guess I'm guilty as charged. See comment above about not caring.
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2005, 21:18:09 »

Do actually know what a 'communist' is and do you know what a 'socialist' is? Do you know what the distinction between the two is? Or indeed that there is a distinction?

Why do you think that anyone who questions US foreign policy is a 'communist'? Whether you agree with US foreign policy or not, you are allowed to have your own view on it and it is perfectly fair to give your own reasons why you do agree with it or why you don't, in the manner of a reasonable discussion. However what is not acceptable is to reply with accusations of 'communism' and other outright insults to any point of view you don't agree with. esp. when the term is mis-used in such a crass manner.

For this reason, while I encourage you to engage in active debate on any issue you agree/disagree on, and to argue with me or others on the issues of the day, I must warn you that from now on you must post in a more reasonable manner in line with the established standards of decorum which the moderators and users of this board all adhere to. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm just asking you to post  in accordance with common decency. Otherwise your time here may be limited.

Doug
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chohan
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2005, 21:43:40 »

Quote
You may think pooping your pants and running away because the bad people are coming is the best way to deal with people who murder hundreds of school children and saw off people's heads for fun and profit.


Amazing, you sound like a sound bite from Rumsfield except he gets confused about shooting down some plane:

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: And to change that way of living, would strike at the very essence of our country.

And I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off peoples' heads on television to intimidate, to frighten -- indeed the word "terrorized" is just that. Its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior, to make people be something other than that which they want to be.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/24/nfcnn.01.html


Quote
Those of us with balls and a spine will take care of you...


Indeed. That statement concerns me much more that some al-qaida boogeyman.

P.S. yothu, thank you for the link to the article by William Clark.

cheers,
cho
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2005, 21:52:28 »

You're welcome, Chohan!
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2005, 22:01:25 »

You are correct. I was wrong to insult the french. Its their government (mostly) I take issue with. I ask you though, how is it an insult to name someone a communist if they are a communist? Is it a "bad" word? Aren't they proud of their leanings?

I do understand the differences between socialism and communism but since they're slight I group them both together for simplicity sake. I can see how that could be confusing in a heated discussion though. So I will be more specific in the future.

People have been saying around here there is an upcoming Paradigm shift in this planet. Well that change has happened in me. I refuse to sit back and take blatant ignorant Anti-Americanism. And just to be clear ignorant doesn't mean stupid it means uninformed. As I've said in previous posts I am here to learn about Astral Projection but will confront attacks on (since thats what Anti-Americanism is) my country where I see them. I will be sure to do so in the future in accordance to board policy.
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2005, 22:06:46 »

...
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2005, 22:37:28 »

Quote
You lefties are funny.


Sigh. Fascism.

Quote
The invasion was complete and successful.


Bush wasn't celebrating simply invading Iraq. He was celebrating, as he said, the end of major military activity in Iraq. In that he was most obviously wrong, as our casualties are a testament to.

Quote
Explain how Iraq is a mess again?


Terrorist activity within the country has skyrocketed since the invasion (it wasn't even a problem before - they can't even link the terrorists with Saddam), and people die on a daily basis because of terrorist activities. Our troops have no real targets; no definite 'bad guys' to go shoot down. They're pretty much sitting ducks for bombings, etc., which of course they've had. Also all sorts of other civil problems and chaos around the country as a direct result of our invasion.

Quote
That's right because these enemies will listen to a good sit down chat over noon tea! So we better not "swagger" or we'll look arrogant. Wouldn't want to do that. No sir.


And I guess they love killing us in particular for no apparent reason? It's OUR fault that they're ticked in the first place. We supply Israel with weapons out the butt. Israel was created on Muslim holy ground. The Muslims want them out, and have every reason to feel the way they do, but they can't do a thing about it because the great and fair nation of the United States is giving Israel enough arms to wipe out everyone around.

We could theoretically negotiate our way out of this. Bit by bit, no longer arming Israel, and compromising land with the Muslims. We could do great things in the Middle East without bloodshed. But it won't happen because people with such ways of thinking as yourself from both sides are hindering this process. All these balls and spines are getting in the way of intelligent diplomacy.

Quote
Too costly?


Pretty damned costly. Bush said he was going to have the deficit eliminated during this second term, but I don't know if he's chummy enough with God to ask for miracles yet. Have you seen the daily cost for war in Iraq? Yearly? Overall cost?

Quote
Attacking Syria and Iran out of the question?


You seem ready and willing. What every happened to isolationism? Sad

Quote
Those of us with balls and a spine will take care of you... like we've always done.


Erm... Why do you need to take care of 'us', what happened? Did Saddam bomb us? I feel left out.

Oh.. maybe you mean 9/11? Yeah, thanks for taking care of that for "us". I mean, now that you guys found Osama and brought him to justice, we've accomplished exactly what we sat out to do. And in good time! No side distractions, creating unnecessary wars with other countries, nothing like you fascists have tendencies to do! GOOD JOB!

That's considering Osama even had anything to do with 9/11, but I don't want to be labelled a super duper communist for even bringing such things up for healthy inspection. I guess we're supposed to blindly accept what our leaders tell us. History shows they ALWAYS tell the truth. They're ALWAYS in check with the people. Who are we to think?

Quote
You say the liberation and subsequent fervent popular elections in Iraq are wrong then what is right?


Quote
Freedom is on the march and socialists can't stand it but won't admit they can't stand it.


Hmm. Dunno where you've been but that's not why we went to Iraq.

Quote
The Lebanese will soon be free and so will the Iranians. Freedom isn't free but its certainly worth fighting for -- your fathers and grandfathers know that but they are remiss by letting you forget.


Pfft... First of all - again we didn't go to war to free them. Never did I ever hear that mentioned. The whole freedom thing came afterwards as the military realized they were going to be there for a looong time.

Secondly, in WWII, neither we or our allies were unprovoked, and our founding fathers were ISOLATIONISTS. Look that up!

Quote
The day I give a [edit] what a bunch of terrorist apologists feel about me or what my "commie" comments make me look like to them is the day I shoot myself in the head.


Or maybe it'll be the day they shoot you in the head Wink

Quote
Commie in this instance is a catch-all phrase for all America-hating whiny crybaby socialists -- its hardly limited at all.


lol.. Well in this case, (primitive, used female contraceptive item) is a catch-all phrase for people who forget what the Constitution says about going to war. And I'm not referring to 'freeing' the Middle East.

Quote
Only the blind question the obvious...


None of this is obvious, really. The sky being blue is obvious. What's going on in the Middle East is not. Unless you tour the Middle East on a regular basis and are kept fully up-to-date, you're getting your information from other people, who could and do lie and stretch information to fit their agendas.

Quote
Ignore the free Iraqis and Afghanis, protests in Lebanon and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Ignore Libya giving up their WMD plans and many other GOOD things happening.


We really should. An organization like the UN would be more appropriate for dealing with such things, but when the UN isn't successful, we should not take things into our own hands and bust onto the seen with big guns, shooting everybody up. We can protest situations diplomatically and pressure foreign governments with some cooperation of other countries, and help in many other peaceful ways. That would show much more compassion, I think, than warring, if that's what you're up for. But we have absolutely 0 responsibility for what goes on in these other countries.

The Constitution says that wars should be waged by the United States only, ONLY, mind you, in self defense. This makes war on Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc., unconstitutional and therefore illegal.

Quote
They were dieing before , but now they've got a cause to better themselves.


Your logic behind this justification of war is flawless.  rolleyes
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2005, 23:03:43 »

madlordnad_

I'll tell you what's wrong with labling people communists:
I am NOT a communist and if you continue such insults on this board you will be removed. It's that simple.

Once again, debate and feel free to agree/disagree in a *reasonable* manner, not resulting in mis-named insults; I find it unbelievable that you have no ideas about debating with a sense of common decency in mind.
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« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2005, 01:14:44 »

Hi:

The problem with the "commie" thing is a lot of people in Europe have long since moved on. I'm not sure if Mr MadLordNad actually realises that a number of ex "commie" countries are now actually formal members of the European Union.

I do think it is a tad ironic that one of my good friends is an American living in New York, and her husband is an Iraqi citizen. From her I am assured that our friend is not representative of anyone she knows, put it that way.

People in Europe are used to dealing with different nationalities living on their doorstep. For example, I drive a few hours one way and I'm in Spain, the other and I'm in Italy, go north east and I'm in Switzerland, turn right just before I get there and drive for a bit and I'm in Germany.

If you live in the USA, imagine the overall landmass split up into states as it is now, but think of each state as being a completely different country with their own history, own government, own laws, own language, own customs, etc., and up until a few years ago, their own currency. That is how it is like living in Europe.

As such, people in Europe are very much more used to thinking in terms of diplomacy and negotiation between governments, and embracing the differences between people of many different nationalities.

We have long since embraced the notion of bringing the ex-communist countries of the old Soviet Union into the European fold. Plus, people tended to see the Cold War as generally an "American thing". So when it all stopped in the late 1980's we all kinda breathed a sigh of relief and got on with the building of relationships with our neighbours. Because in Europe these countries you speak of are actually here, right next-door to us, sitting on the same land mass.

Because of the vast differences that exist, people in Europe have lived with terrorism for as long as we can remember. Particularly in England with the troubles in Ireland. Several decades ago, the IRA was branded by the English government as a terrorist organisation, and this organisation has been responsible for exploding many a bomb. Killing and maiming all manner of people over several decades.

But people in the main, both English and Irish, have now embraced the idea of negotiation and the bringing of the leaders of this organisation into the political fold. Because thatís the only real way the fighting is going to stop. You canít have a police officer or a soldier on every street corner, 24 hours a day.

I think what people generally, especially in Europe, are beginning to realise is that fighting simply leads to more fighting; and when the US government talks about protecting world interests, what they actually mean is: protecting American interests.

In the midst of all the bluster that surrounds the conflict in Iraq, there is one fact that shines out like a lighthouse. Hardly anyone in the USA, government or otherwise, would give a stuff about Iraq, its government, its people, nothing, they wouldn't give a damn. If it were not for the fact that Iraq has the second largest oil-reserves in the world. And that's what it all boils down to. All those people are suffering and dying, not in a fight for freedom, but in a fight to control the oil flowing out of that country.

There are many, many other countries in the world where gross atrocities are committed. Plus, thirty seven and a half MILLION children die every year in the world from lack of basic needs, such as food, shelter, and basic medicine. So put your atrocities argument away, it doesnít wash here.

You talk about France. The French people, as a rule, are very independent minded and they do not take kindly to other governments telling them how they should conduct their internal affairs. Thatís why I like it here. In the main, itís the people that rule here, not the state.

Unlike in my home country, England. Parliament there has become nothing more than a US puppet regime. Many people are reacting against it. You would never see the French government acting in such a way. The French people simply would not stand for it. There would be another revolution!

Yours,
Frank
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Nick
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« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2005, 01:57:31 »

Frank,

Well said, my friend.

As you wrote above, "fighting leads to more fighting". There are some of us here who are sick of it; and sick of seeing the government send kids everywhere to kill and be killed.

Best regards,
Nick
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RTCovenant
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2005, 04:55:42 »

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Let terrorists get away with whatever they want. BE LIKE FRANCE! Rolling Eyes

Please. This "delusional war on terror" is a complete flop... Laughing You lefties are funny. Its incredible to me how you can only hope for the worst while completely ignoring any OBVIOUS accomplishments which repudiate your clai


I couldn't agree more. Considering how many WMD's and biological weapons Saddam had, It was crucial we went in there and took them away. I mean it was worth the 200 billion dollars and counting to invade a country and take their weapons that never existed. Good thing we completely forgot about Osama, and attacked Saddam instead.

Also, we should be proud. We are creating a "kinda" democracy in Iraq, that is resembling Iran. Not only are we creating a theocracy, but its a democracy that will have no regard for the rights of women. And one that'll force their religous believes on to everyone.

As my president, whom I am very proud to support, once said, "Mission Accomplished!"

(just to let you know, everything above was sarcasm)

Personally, Mad, I respect people's opinions, but yours lack the facts and figures. I don't find personal insults (calling people lefty commies) very respectful either.
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patapouf
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2005, 15:57:21 »

It is sad is to hear people fight one another on terms of ideologies such as ''lefties'' ''righties'' ''down south western center'' etc. People really need to look how the ''chess game'' is being played and if you can observe ''future moves'' a little bit, you all know that we do not want any other wars from both ''leftist'' and ''rightist'' (that are good friends behind the scene by the way and do not really project the image that media portray of them; such as Bush the ''conservative christian'', mmmm, not really....). Many ex-president such as George Bush Sr., Gorbachev (etc.) all prone what they desire the most: a one-world government type of thing. But their goal is to create ''disorder'' before a ''new world order''.

Like a president of the beginning of the 1900s said: ''There is a small group of people doing things, another small group that watch the other small group do these things and a huge group that do not know nothing and did not even knew what just happened''.
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no_leaf_clover
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« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2005, 20:33:12 »

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It is sad is to hear people fight one another on terms of ideologies such as ''lefties'' ''righties'' ''down south western center'' etc.


When George Washington stepped down after his second term, he warned against three things in his farewell address. One of the things he warned was to avoid forming political parties (I think he was the only president that did not belong to one).

He also warned against the division of the country geophysically, like North and South or East and West (no one listened to this either and look what happened), and against becoming too buddy-buddy with foreign countries.
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RTCovenant
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2005, 17:00:54 »

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One of the things he warned was to avoid forming political parties (I think he was the only president that did not belong to one).


I agree with is completely. It is kind of silly to have a combo package on issues.

It is absurd to have to vote family votes while voting for tax cuts for the rich.
It is the same absurdity to have to vote to help the poor while (insert random democratic party thing you disagree with.)

I believe in a "true" democracy, one following the exact description, people would specifically vote on an issue like gay marriage, instead of voting for or against a candidate that backs or does not support gay marriage.
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2005, 07:46:29 »

RTcovenant,
My only question is that since there are parties, what are you going to do?

I still haven't found a good answer to this question either.
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