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Author Topic: OBE's... spiritual or psychological phenomenon?  (Read 7935 times)
The AlphaOmega
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« on: February 02, 2006, 20:35:58 »

I'm sure that many of us have been exposed, on small level, to the increasingly popular idea of Out of Body Experiences. Believers, and more importantly those of "experience", have stated time and time again, in now almost countless books that the experience of leaving ones body is in fact more real than waking life itself. They state that it's such a profoud experience that it can't be denied any more than denying that we are alive right now (which some philosophers do in fact argue atimately). The problem with this is that we have to take the stories at face value. After all, how can it be proven? How do you test and retest and scrutinize the existence of conciousness outside the body? An important question would be whether or not we can know, beyond science, the validity of an OBE?
Obviously with something like this there will be much doubt. But with so many individuals claiming to experience this state of conciousness it can't be simply overlooked. It's entirely probable that they whole-heartedly believe they did in fact leave there bodies. So the most obvious answer is a hallucination within the mind. They can be powerful things. We won't go into discussion at this time as to the physiological reasons why the hallucination occurs... unless someone has a theory. The question is "why is it believed to be so real?" If the hallucination was doing it's job right then it would clearly be experienced as reality.
The next idea is a dream state. After all, every human has experienced a dream. A state in which during the experience you believe it to be reality. But as individuals we can define a dream by that state that seems real at the time, but upon waking was obvious an inner working of the mind itself. So why is it that after an OBE the individual still believes the experience to be real and valid and not a the dream state that we are all accustomed to?
Opinions and insights?
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 20:57:59 »

Search these forums for the same argument which will show both sides of the argument.
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 20:57:59 »

logoVisit the website of Astral Pulse creator Adrian Cooper.

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Sepultura123
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 21:39:28 »

I think its more on the dream side . Its just a dream but in a totally different way and weird that can get you in your house...
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dingo
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 21:42:17 »

I think the most logical non-spiritual explanation is that the brain loses it's sensory input as the body shuts down while you're conscious, and then the subconscious fills in the rest.
BUT that cannot explain spontaneous OBEs that sometimes happen while you are fully awake and active.
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 22:26:07 »

A couple of thoughts:  In a regular old non-lucid dream the subconscious in in charge, therefore anything seems real, and is accepted.  Only upon awakening we 'realize' that a 20 ft Gorilla couldn't fit in through the window and eat me, but stuff like this is unquestioningly accepted.
In a projection experience, usually the surroundings are not considered to 'look normal', in fact, most experiencers realize things are not as they are supposed-at the time it's happening- but things progress as they would if your consciousness were 'out of body'.  In other words, you go through walls, fly and are unable to affect 'concrete reality' no matter how you try.  But you don't think that is normal and is as should be, as you would, in waking life.  So the third option is a lucid dream.  Except, most projectors are Lucid Dreamers, and do report differences in both LD's and OBEs.  In other words, if I dream I OB'd, as I have in the past, I know I'm dreaming, but other times I've seen things that would only be explained by my consciousness having access to information not available to me as I slept. (Whether I left my body is almost beside the point)
There is ample evidence for at least some OBEs to have been verified, so it's not a matter of discounting all of them as  hallucinations projected  by the dreaming mind.  Some may be, but some are not.  Sure, they can be explained 'away' by someone who will not believe that individual consciousness can leave the body, but that would not be very scientific, now would it?
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 22:26:07 »



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The AlphaOmega
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 23:11:48 »

Actually I don't see how science applies at all.  Researching OBE is not a scientific step, yet anyways, progress is being made.  This is because it still can't be proved, and it can't be tested or retested with any controlled variable.  It comes down to a belief system.  People are asked why they believe in God.  They say faith, or that they just know in their soul that He exists.  But prove it, just can't be done.  Same with OBE.  You can say that you've had one, and that it was definitely real, but other than on a personal level how can it be taken all that seriously?  I myself am a believer, so don't kill me for playing the devil's advocate... but how much I believe them is limited.  I don't disbelieve that they are true, I just think that perhaps they've been construed out wrongly.  You say yourself that many OBEr's don't differentiate between lucid dreams and OBE.  I've had some very intense and wonderful lucid dreams before, but I know that they are still only aspects of my subconscious mind and not waking life, however fun they may be.  I think the problem lies in the fact that many "spiritual insights" are being achieved in the OB state and there is a growing number in followers.  But we all know how creative the dream state can be.  I have received many insightful and intelligent ideas within my dreams, many of which I can't remember.  But to push forward and call it the "future of humanity" as I have seen so often may be as dangerous as organizing a new religion.  To truly be open minded here we need to consider discounting them as reality all together.  Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 23:32:15 »

"The AlphaOmega wrote:
Quote
"Actually I don't see how science applies at all.  Researching OBE is not a scientific step, yet anyways, progress is being made.  This is because it still can't be proved, and it can't be tested or retested with any controlled variable.  It comes down to a belief system
.
I agree that the belief that you actually got out of your body is just that, a belief, but the information about actual events that can be verified is not.  Whether that demonstrates esp or nonlocality or some other explanation is not the point- sometimes the information is verified.  Now, I'm not talking about spiritual of religious information- I am talking about where someone was and what they were doing at a particular time.  This is not verifiable by scientific experiment but it's been verified by another person to have happened as I experienced it, for example.
 
Quote
 I myself am a believer, so don't kill me for playing the devil's advocate... but how much I believe them is limited.  I don't disbelieve that they are true, I just think that perhaps they've been construed out wrongly.
I agree there- we may be talking about a variety of things, some considered paranormal, and some psychologically induced.  
Quote
You say yourself that many OBEr's don't differentiate between lucid dreams and OBE.  I've had some very intense and wonderful lucid dreams before, but I know that they are still only aspects of my subconscious mind and not waking life, however fun they may be.
So far so good- We think similarly.
Quote
I think the problem lies in the fact that many "spiritual insights" are being achieved in the OB state and there is a growing number in followers.  But we all know how creative the dream state can be.  I have received many insightful and intelligent ideas within my dreams, many of which I can't remember.  But to push forward and call it the "future of humanity" as I have seen so often may be as dangerous as organizing a new religion.
I also agree with this.
Quote
To truly be open minded here we need to consider discounting them as reality all together.  Remember, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
 I agree we should be open enough to discount them as objective reality, but not necessarily as reality, because sometimes our subconscious can teach us things about ourselves that we wouldn't learn otherwise, and ignoring insights about ourselves would be throwing away the baby with the bathwater.
ps. Please notice I said ourselves!  wink
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french_hustler
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2006, 04:58:06 »

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So why is it that after an OBE the individual still believes the experience to be real and valid and not a the dream state that we are all accustomed to?


I thought the same before i started having experiences... u are aware when u obe... you are not sleeping like in a dream.  You feel like it is real... same as you're feeling the chair you're sitting on right now... You know for a fact that you are out the body and that you're obe'ing.  When you have a dream, you don't think... "oh snap im dreaming!"... a dream just takes place and that's it.

Whatever an OBE is... whether we're actualy leaving the body, dreaming, dying... whatever.  I'm alive and well right now... I live like anyother person and OBE'ing is an amazing experience on both physical and spiritual levels.  You shouldn't care whatever it is Smiley
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mrloki
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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2006, 06:18:52 »

don't question everything. just take it all at face value. have your experience; whatever that may be, you decide.  my experiences also seem pretty "real",  although real is a pretty broad term.  when in that state it is just a different aspect of seeing whatever reality is
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The AlphaOmega
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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2006, 09:19:14 »

Once again, sorry for playing the devils advocate... but YES, DO QUESTION EVERYTHING.  If something is questioned then in due time it's truthfulness will emerse.  To accept something immediately is to deny our very human right of "ponderance".  If God did not want us to question, He would not have bestowed upon us the ability to question, which is endowed with free will.  It's only through questioning that we discover the truthfulness of that which we question.
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dingo
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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2006, 17:14:02 »

Quote from: The AlphaOmega
Once again, sorry for playing the devils advocate... but YES, DO QUESTION EVERYTHING.


Couldn't agree more.


Statistical analyses can be used to prove information gathered during an OBE is real, but it doesn't explain how or why - that's where a theory or an interpretation is needed, and proving it would be virtually impossible.

The new scientist had an article a while ago (not directly about AP or SP), where they paralysed volunteers arms and told them to try to move them. The volunteers (not being able to see their arms) said they could feel them moving, when in fact they were not, kind of like the phantom limbs that amputees experience. The theory is that the sensation of movement is produced when the brain sends a signal to a muscle to contract, and that the muscle doesn't actually have to contract for the sensation to be experienced.
I think if there is to be a materialistic explanation for AP, it should be broken down into smaller pieces and each of those tackled individually. I know a lot of my experiences start blind and in sleep paralysis - it's the sensation of movement that occurs first. So the sensation of movement, at least, can be explained in a reasonably logical way.
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Draege
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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2006, 23:24:05 »

Here's my experience on it. Personally, I don't believe I've ever left my body. Many many times in these "experiences" I've been faced with situations that make it seem as though I'm having an OBE but a little subjective observation will make it obvious this is not the case. I don't personally believe in OBE at least not in the sense of going around the real physical world and viewing real events etc.. What CAN and often DOES happen is your mind will recreate real life areas and you can't tell the difference.. most people are predisposed to believing these illusions when people tell them these experiences are OBEs.

So what do I think is happening? They're all dreams. By dreams I simply mean your mind is creating the reality. Your physical body, at least all minus the brain, has zero relevance to the *completely real* reality you'll experience. The only true question remains is mind separate from the brain.
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« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2006, 22:04:32 »

Quote from: The AlphaOmega
Once again, sorry for playing the devils advocate... but YES, DO QUESTION EVERYTHING.  If something is questioned then in due time it's truthfulness will emerse.  To accept something immediately is to deny our very human right of "ponderance".  If God did not want us to question, He would not have bestowed upon us the ability to question, which is endowed with free will.  It's only through questioning that we discover the truthfulness of that which we question.
I agree with this also.  To arrive at an answer you must question.
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Teh
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« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2006, 22:31:12 »

just over a year ago i was a complete skeptic and refused to beleive that any of this stuff (dreams, obes) was outside your physical brain in any way. but in the past year ive learnt and predicted information from these states that there is no way my physical body could possibly have obtained any other way.
 ive shared dreams with people, had preminitions which i told other people and wrote down before they happened, loads of stuff. thats just my story though, its down to you if you want to investigate and prove to yourself.

also i think obes have been scientifically proven, i watched a documentary about them a while ago where a woman who was literally killed while they performed brain surgery then revived managed to describe things theres no way she could have perceived when dead.
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dingo
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« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2006, 23:27:24 »

Quote from: Teh
also i think obes have been scientifically proven, i watched a documentary about them a while ago where a woman who was literally killed while they performed brain surgery then revived managed to describe things theres no way she could have perceived when dead.


Doesn't mean they've been scientifically proven. They have to be reproducable in the lab.

Also, there's the possibility that this knowledge was gained in another way. ESP, telepathy, etc., so while it may be paranormal there's no proof it's an OBE.
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The AlphaOmega
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2006, 02:34:56 »

Dingo, exactly.  So many people confuse scientific evidence with "more than possibility".  It's possible that the woman did know things she shouldn't have known if dead.  And I too have heard stories of individuals that have actually been in a morgue for more than 3 days, had a NDE, and was then revived.  The fact that their stories are accurate means it's something that should be looked into... but scientific proof it definitely isn't.  The brain is and has always been a complicated thing.  The average person uses 1/100th of it's potential.  "Brain dead" might not be what we think it is.  Science is a relatively new discipline, and when it comes to the brain, we're anything but certain about it.  It will take more research (scientifically) to really understand the vastness of the mind/brain, of which we haven't even learned are independent or not of each other.  All we can be sure of is that there isn't enough knowledge to accept these phenomena as absolute truth unless you abandon reason.  And as they say, to abandon reason is the most unreasonable thing you can do.  

PS... Dingo (Frank)... "why do you wear that stupid man suite"?   wink  Dig the Avatar!
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Teh
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2006, 22:46:12 »

you certainly have some good points there which i hadn't considered so... thank you i suppose.  youre right that its difficult to prove it in lab conditions, but i think (im not sure at all) that monroe did set up experiments where able volunteers would obe and read something in the room next to them... or it was something similar. so yeah it can be done in lab conditions like that, where all the volunteers report being out of their bodies so therefore it is an obe and not esp or whatever.

the question that arises from that however, is why hasnt it been thoroughly examined in that way yet..
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dingo
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2006, 14:30:43 »

The reason would be that skillful astral projectors are hard to find. Hardly anyone can project at will exactly when they want and find what they're meant to find.
If my memory's correct, Monroe did not find the numbers in the other room that he needed to find but he did correctly recall a conversation going on that he couldn't have known about. Things like that couldn't be used in the analysis.
And besides that, I don't think the general public is aware that people induce OBEs. If you ask a random person on the street they'll probably only know about NDEs, so the number of AP-aware parapsychology researchers is probably low.
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The AlphaOmega
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2006, 04:48:02 »

Good point.  For society to really get to the nitty gritty and study OBE's researchers need to find valid interest in them.  But it doesn't just begin there.  There has to be enough reasonable evidence to support the probability of induced OBE's for the scientific community to supply funding enough to prove or disprove the phenomenon.  And we're probably some years away I think.  Despite the fact that there is far more interest in the subject then 30 years ago, and that you can easily find a number of books on OBE, for the most part many, MANY people just don't care about it.  Even, or perhaps especially, people that already believe in God and their religion so profoundly.  Yes I'd have to say that for now it remains a personal experience open to impossible interpretation by anyone else.  We may be able to study electrical impulses in the brain and observe the activity of the two hemispheres during an alleged OBE.  But to know what the brain activity really means or observe the experience that the individual is having is anything but possible.
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Ben K
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2006, 20:34:19 »

Quote from: The AlphaOmega
I'm sure that many of us have been exposed, on small level, to the increasingly popular idea of Out of Body Experiences. Believers, and more importantly those of "experience", have stated time and time again, in now almost countless books that the experience of leaving ones body is in fact more real than waking life itself. They state that it's such a profoud experience that it can't be denied any more than denying that we are alive right now (which some philosophers do in fact argue atimately). The problem with this is that we have to take the stories at face value. After all, how can it be proven? How do you test and retest and scrutinize the existence of conciousness outside the body? An important question would be whether or not we can know, beyond science, the validity of an OBE?
Obviously with something like this there will be much doubt. But with so many individuals claiming to experience this state of conciousness it can't be simply overlooked. It's entirely probable that they whole-heartedly believe they did in fact leave there bodies. So the most obvious answer is a hallucination within the mind. They can be powerful things. We won't go into discussion at this time as to the physiological reasons why the hallucination occurs... unless someone has a theory. The question is "why is it believed to be so real?" If the hallucination was doing it's job right then it would clearly be experienced as reality.
The next idea is a dream state. After all, every human has experienced a dream. A state in which during the experience you believe it to be reality. But as individuals we can define a dream by that state that seems real at the time, but upon waking was obvious an inner working of the mind itself. So why is it that after an OBE the individual still believes the experience to be real and valid and not a the dream state that we are all accustomed to?
Opinions and insights?


OBEs are whatever you believe them to be.

If you believe they are products of your brain, products of your brain they will become. If you believe they are a gateway to other worlds, a gateway to other worlds they will become.

The point isnt are they "real" or "not real." Your asking the wrong question. These people arent lying about their experiences. The question is "what are they." Once you get past the question you are currently at, which is basically "can i do them or not myself", you just dont know it, you can get to the real good parts. Because once you realize they do indeed exist you can subscribe to a belief in OBEs. and that is the most important part. Belief.

If you sincerely believe in out of body experiences, and you believe you can have them, you will. All these techniques and rules and beliefs and ideas serve one purpose- to change your belief from "obes are not real." to "i am having an obe."

Dont believe me? Try it yourself. Open up your doors of belief for awhile and see where it takes you. Changing your beliefs doesnt hurt anything anyway. And i guarentee you wont be sorry you did Cheesy
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2006, 21:51:44 »

Quote from: Teh
you certainly have some good points there which i hadn't considered so... thank you i suppose.  youre right that its difficult to prove it in lab conditions, but i think (im not sure at all) that monroe did set up experiments where able volunteers would obe and read something in the room next to them... or it was something similar. so yeah it can be done in lab conditions like that, where all the volunteers report being out of their bodies so therefore it is an obe and not esp or whatever.

the question that arises from that however, is why hasnt it been thoroughly examined in that way yet..


Monroe tried doing this with Charles tart. Every experiment failed. Either the numbers wern't correct, or he didn't make it as far as the room with the numbers in.
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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2006, 22:01:35 »

Quote from: Ben K

OBEs are whatever you believe them to be.

If you believe they are products of your brain, products of your brain they will become. If you believe they are a gateway to other worlds, a gateway to other worlds they will become.

The point isnt are they "real" or "not real." Your asking the wrong question. These people arent lying about their experiences. The question is "what are they." Once you get past the question you are currently at, which is basically "can i do them or not myself", you just dont know it, you can get to the real good parts. Because once you realize they do indeed exist you can subscribe to a belief in OBEs. and that is the most important part. Belief.

If you sincerely believe in out of body experiences, and you believe you can have them, you will. All these techniques and rules and beliefs and ideas serve one purpose- to change your belief from "obes are not real." to "i am having an obe."

Dont believe me? Try it yourself. Open up your doors of belief for awhile and see where it takes you. Changing your beliefs doesnt hurt anything anyway. And i guarentee you wont be sorry you did Cheesy


I'm not sure I follow this 100%. I think one can believe in OBEs, but be unsure of the dogma attached to them i.e. that we are actually leaving our body, that they undeniably prove life after death etc. They are interesting experiences in their own rights irregardless of what they truly symbolise.

 If we follow astral doctrines, then it should easily be possible to produce some form of verifiable experiments. But to date, any experiment has produced questionable results at best.
 
 I agree that we can ignore any scientific considerations of OBEs and go about enjoying them on our own. When we die either our experiences will be validated, or we won't hold awareness that they're not.
 But the way I see it, my sense of exploration drove me to attempt to produce OBEs at will. That same sense of discovery desires to find out if OBEs are more than just brain generated experiences. People say that’s a waste, but one can go exploring distant planes sometimes, and then at other times they can try and produce verifiable evidence.
 People have a bit of a biased view against the scientific community, but if a verifiable, repeatable method of producing OBEs which seemed to allow the OBE’ers to view data external to themselves was discovered. Research would be done into that area.
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Sepultura123
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2006, 01:22:21 »

But if there just a trick of the mind they are really same for every body. Its so similar the story of everyone and what the astral world look like...
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MisterJingo
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2006, 01:39:25 »

Quote from: Sepultura123
But if there just a trick of the mind they are really same for every body. Its so similar the story of everyone and what the astral world look like...


I don't know. It seems very rare to hear of people stating similar experiences to do with the astral. Each interprets everything through belief system, existing knowledge to date etc and so seems to get a different experience. Even the AP 'Gurus' don;t really agree on the structure and layout.
 This is not to say the astral is only in the mind (although if you look at the biggest picture... Wink)
 I guess what I'm trying to say is whatever our view its just a belief. So why not attempt to get varification which could be useful in prooving the validity of the OBE state either way. There are some great posts around to do with varification experiments.
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The AlphaOmega
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2006, 07:08:13 »

Actually MisterJingo, the experiences with OBE are quite similar, at least in terms of inducing.  Now when it comes to OBE the actual "experience" itself is no more common than the same dream one would have with somoneone else.  Purely independent and personal of each other.  But the sensations and events that occur BEFORE or/and during an OBE are actually quite similar.  This in no way suggests validity, but commonality.  Most astral explorers explain that the reason their experiences are similar with others is because they are valid and true.  Scientifically that doesn't hold water.  The way that science diagnosis and evaluates symptoms in accordance to the disease is through their commonality.  Everything from retardation to allergies are characterized by common symptoms, which have been scientifically prooven.  So to state that OBE are true because they have similar characteristics simply means that it's possible that OBE's are a mental state that exhibit the same characteristics.  To date there is no reason to believe they are more than lucid dreams, or at worst, hallucinations.  It still, and for many years, will remain in a state of belief.  So far it remains nothing more, if not less, than a pseudoscience.  Categorized with astrology, palm reading, Scientology and faith.  When trying to prove something that one believes to be important I must always (and have already) emphasized one fact.....
EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY PROOF!!!
There is no logical, philosophical or rational reason to believe in anything that can't be reasonably prooven!
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