What is all this new age crap?

[Tom]

It is a proven fact that intelligence decreases with more schooling. The Ph.D.s and M.D.s around me continue to illustrate this point. Someone told me jokingly that the letters of Ph.D. stand for "pretty heavily damaged". Some day I will be as intelligent as I was at age 8.

My beliefs have changed since talking with that nun long ago. If anything, my mouth gets me in more trouble than ever before. Back then I would have taken the evidence of my own senses as proof. Now I know that perceptions are easily distorted. Even when they seem stable, consistent, and easily repeatable they don't have to be correct. Faith is difficult. The idea of a God goes completely outside the limits of my imagination in ways that few things can. All I meant earlier was that with so much doubt, the idea of being advised to learn about the universe by watching tv seemed shocking. This would be the same tv on which I have seen so many movies and other fictions?

[Patty]

Hey Tom, I like this analysis that I heard:

BS = bovine excrement
MS = More of the Same
PhD = Piled higher and Deeper

I also like the idea that as you get more and more education, you keep learning more and more about less and less until you reach the point of knowing everything about nothing.

Tom - I like your ... shall I call it agnosticism? My favorite bumper sticker is "Militant Agnostic: I don't know and neither do you!"

Jason - speaking of education - if you're 25 and still in school, would that be graduate school? Please elaborate! I have an advanced degree myself, though I don't currently use it.

Patty

[James S]

Ok, shorter one this time (for a change),

Something my wife said to me this morning as we were discussing this topic on the way to work (and it blew a hole in a previous statement of mine)-

Actively disproving something can be as productive as actively proving it, providing the person doing so isn't doing it with a one track mind. They need to be open to possibilities.

Examples :
If the people of SkepDic.com in investigating auras had considered that a PET device was not a suitable tool for viewing auras, they might have looked at what instrument is, and revised their "absolute" statement.

The Challenger disaster mightn't have happened years ago if NASA engineers weren't so sure that everything would work as it was supposed to. If someone had questioned the "infallable" components that failed beforehand they might have found the fault before it was too late.
(NB. theres a term used in research for this "unquestioning" approach, but I can't think what it is)

Also, to expand one of Tom's points -
"Proving something, regardless of what it is, is a matter of taking something which you have discovered or learned for yourself and bringing it to other people..."

How could you prove the existence of electricity if the Voltmeter had not yet been developed. You could see it's effects, but you couldn't measure it. Can't measure electricity with a hammer(well, you could try, but you'd probably be killed in the process)! By todays standards, "science" demands things be measured as proof, but we haven't yet developed the tools neeeded to "measure" OBEs and other psychic talents.

Hang on, just a thought...isn't paranormal research, or parapsychology now an accepted branch of science?

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

[Tom]

James S: I don't have a voltmeter, but if you will kindly stick out your tongue I will place both terminals of a 9V battery on it. Then we can discuss if electricity is real. What I meant is that it is one thing to know something and another to communicate the knowledge to someone else. How it is done was not the point. I mean that there is knowing something, which is satisfactory to me, and then a burden of having to prove it to other people by some means. It is good enough for me just to have experiences even if they aren't real or objective or things I can prove to other people. If anyone is wondering, I am not a mean person.

[k2sixx]

Hey.  What do you mean by being "advised to learn about the universe"?  I simply stated that this man's show is very interesting.  I haven't seen any sufficient data to disprove Edward's ability, and through all the books I've read, I don't see this ability to defy all logic.  I have always had ideas about who we are (or who I am for that matter)... and some are not completely normal thoughts, and certainly not logical by scientific standards.  So, what I'm getting at is that I have a very open mind when it comes to spiritual discussion.  I learn many things from watching the Discovery and History channels about this world, so why should I ignore this, yes, TV SHOW, and disregard it, considering it foolish to believe.

[Tom]

Much better wording, to say that there are reasons for finding value in the show than that it is on tv. Sai Baba has people saying his ability is stage trickery and he appears live in person. Osho has been accused of being a fraud, too. Maybe this guy who talks with dead people is for real. Just hearing it said that he isn't won't convince me.

[Mobius]

G,day all

Hey you new guys didn't have a guy called Atlas on your board did you? Sounds like a rehashed version of his arguements we had back in "$1 million  reward for proof of OBE's".

Many of us here have science based backgrounds, if not studying science at present & are naturally skeptical ourselves, but there is a difference between being rational & logical & having an open mind. Many of my fellow students & lectures consider themselves open minded, but really, it's just being open minded within the scope of what they know, anything else doesn't exist for the present unless it's proved.

Just the fact that you guys didn't just stick to one source of information e.g science & skeptics forums, shows you think there must be more to the story than what you have discovered so far, otherwise you wouldn't need to come to forums where they nearly exclusively believe in OBE's & the paranormal & tell them they are wrong or because you personally have not experienced it, therefore it must be wrong or doesn't happen the way that others believe it to be.

I'm sure you wouldn't burst into a science forum or walk into a university & say that because they havn't discovered black holes or teleportation because you havn't experienced it, or read about it in a way that made sense to you, it doesn't exist.

The events at SRI & Fort Meade etc, were funded by the department of defence for the specific purpose of counter- intelligence, the Russians allready had it, spys had confirmed & so the military pumped millions into it. I'm sure if Ingo Swann & Hal Pulthoff told the top brass that what they were training people for, what pretty much amounted to an ancient art called Clairvoyancy as opposed to a more military sounding Remote viewing, it would have lost funding in a second.

There is enough evidence that when the r.v program ceased to be, the government conducted & continues to conduct research in private & secret. We all have the benefit of hindsight to scan the "de-classified" info released by the U.S, but why not all of it, if it was such a failure?

Most people back in the 40's & 50's didn't know the government was secretly racing the Russians to build bigger & longer range rockets after they discovered the Germans success at it. Even to the scientists involved, it was an exercise that seemed impossible, let alone putting a man into them, which was simply deemed impossible until they learned the Russians were doing it. Many mistakes need to be made first, so people can gain experience & learn from their mistakes.

If there was so little for people to believe in or to dissmiss so readily by scientific & military types, why then did the majority of them go through TMI? If R.V has nothing to do with OBE's why go to an institute that teaches OBE's?

"The longest run" concept is used in a link from a previous post on SRI's scientific data & an alalogy is drawn between the results of testing positive on R.V tests & home run rates from a baseball team! The logic used in that analogy defies logic by drawing a comparison between strike rates in the physical world compared to a non physical world, why not be fair & display the positive results from quantam physics exercises in comparison to R.V, I think we all know how many positive results will be found out of the millions of tests performed.

As everything in our physical world is dependant & reliant on money, it's not likely that the ones who DO have the positive results are going to rush out & give it to people for free, without working out someway of securing a monopoly on it or at least a patent, imagine the U.S scientists 50 years ago wanting to go around to skeptics or those interested to show them exactly how it works & that it does work, I think not.

Saying I can show you how electricity works if you put your tongue on a 9v battery is using the benefit of hindsight a little isn't it? Like Frank said, this is an emerging science, so with anything new & nothing to hold up like a battery for proof, there will always be those who think the battery came first & not the invention of electricity, which I'm sure you don't, but to cite a present product of a past invention is a bit late.

I love science & I'm quite skeptical too, that's why I'm studying science, but the people teaching & studying it are just as dogmatic & one eyed as religous teachers & students, plus have a system they have to conform to, so as to gain respect & credibility off their peers, who don't want their beliefs pulled apart, but still somehow call themselves openminded people.

I was going to post some links to add to my view, but have learnt that lesson before, as the saying goes "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink", people choose to believe & see what they want to see.

Try & keep positive guys & truly open minded & good journeys.

Mobius

[BDHugh]

Aphexcoil,

Perhaps you would enjoy alchemy? You could say it is the physical application of the paranomral . This is how I would only imagine that a 'soul' can be proven. I believe the alchemists call it the 'quintessence'. Check out this wonder website: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/

It also has lessons of interpreting the symbolism, which I think you said you liked.



Brandon

[Tom]

What I said about the battery was that it was evidence of electricity for those of us without voltmeters. Then there is the fact that I really am mean enough to stick one on someone's tongue just to get a reaction. As to how it works, that is entirely something else.

[aphexcoil]

Patty,

No, not graduate school yet.  I took a break after high-school because I wanted to party some and travel.  I'm glad I waited because I'm taking school much more seriously than I would have when I was 18.  I have a 4.0 GPA going for me right now because of a lot of hard work.  

I am an economics major and plan to pursue it all the way up to the doctoral level.  I love numbers, statistics, economics, business, etc.  

My intention when I started this topic wasn't to cause any fights, but to see where other people come from and how they validate their thought processes.  

Someone posted a link to a site that had some interesting information about PSI.  It is rather lengthy, so it will take some time to read it all.

And yes, I'd say I can OBE about 75% of the time when I try.  Although I can get there, it is very hard to stay there.  It is definately a rather "weird" state of consciousness.

Why is the spell checker broken on this board, btw?



Jason

[James S]

No Tom, I don't think you're mean at all. Just remind me if we ever meet not to go poking my tongue out around you http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_tongue.gif" border=0>

Sorry I misinterperted your point. My thoughts were that you can't prove something if the only standards or known physical laws we have available to us cannot be used as a basis for comparison. Your thoughts were that it doesn't matter if they are proven or not. The experiences we have are real to us. Wether or not someone else chooses to believe what we experienced was real, makes it no less real.

I guess many of us in this forum have at one stage become skeptical of the unexplained things that have happened to us. It took me just over twenty years just to risk talking to someone else about the one major event that opened my eyes to the world beyond what we see and touch.

btw, Jason is right, the spell checker dosnt work. and me with this dislexic keyboard!

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

[Patty]

I don't think you're mean, either Tom, and I didn't think there was particular fighting ... You seem very considerate, and you explain yourself well. I'm sorry for giving you a hard time! I had the image of that nun in my mind...... Going pale from your stated lack of faith, and I guess I assume you are pretty tough skinned! But now I feel like you wish you hadn't joined in.  

I have enjoyed all the tidbits from everybody. I really do think that speaking one's mind is a good thing

The only person who seems at all skeptical in the current cynical sense of the word is Jason but what a relief to hear skepticism from someone who experiences that which he is skeptical of. The 'skeptics' (actually a misuse of the word in my opinion) who have not experienced these things and yet are still convinced that they are all hogwash can be most unpleasant.

Patty

[Tom]

It is fortunate that I can read the experiences of other people here. After having tried to learn to leave my body since 1988 it can be hard to keep trying at times. Usually the difficulty arises when I am trying to do it. It isn't the same as proof to watch someone do something and then to follow, but following seems more important right now. Until OBE becomes more common and better understood, I think that we need to pass the information around so more people (like me) can gain the experience directly. Then we can worry about how objective or subjective it is and if there is proof. So how can more people like me who struggle succeed?

[breadthless_length]

All of my OBEs (I haven't had too many I'll admit)  have been quite like a dream. For example, I will fly out of my bedroom window and there will be buildings etc which I know for a fact don't exist. At first this made me question whether OBEs are real or not. The way which I remember them too seems rather like a dream. In fact, I can remember some dreams better than I can remember some OBEs. I'm not too sure about whether OBEs are real or not, I'd say there's good evidence for and good evidence against.

Here's one thing that gets me though, if they're not real -- that is to say it isn't the spirit leaving the body -- than why do we feel as though we're leaving the body and why also can we see our physical lying or sitting where ever we happen to be. If it's just a mere consequence of particular conscious state of mind, it seems a very odd one. I'm not saying that they're real, but I'm not saying that they're false either http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_approve.gif" border=0>

[PeacefulWarrior]

aphexcoil - you're an econ major, that explains it all!  JK!  I agree with what others have said, keep an open mind and pursue the OBE phenomena and I think eventually you will discover there's a lot more to "reality" than you presently accept.

fides quaerens intellectum

[travrai blue robes]

ah yikes,

I got into this on another board just the other day, discussing spirituality. one thing I mentioned there is that I don't necessarily see a way or a cause to be able to communicate with someone on an opposite polarity.

I don't mean that is my stance by choice, I mean that might just be the way the universe is. You can't turn an intuitive into a rationalist overnight, or vice versa. And I don't believe you have to anyway.

See, it's funny, your comments about the brain answer being the simplest and most straightforward, are exactly what I said about the soul the other day! And that's true to me. Do you suppose other people to be less sincere then you when they speak of their beliefs?

but we are coming from two very different places, and the best thing to do is accept and respect each other. No one's point of view is a lie to theirself so why must people always try to undermine each other? It's obviously because we want external confirmation and reinforcement of our own beliefs, but so friggin what? all that is is draggin each other into the mud and trying to prove  dominion over another person by force.

Perhaps one of the most interesting things the universe is trying to teach us that nearly none of us grasps, is to stop looking for a single answer. that's all we do, isn't it? like aphex we go through phases of belief, of single-mindedness. we look for a single 'god', no matter if we dress it as atheism or religion, to place our confidence in.

let's think of the qualities a person looking for a single 'god' has: selfishness, self-centeredness, intolerance, narrow views, ridgidness. thinking of that, it strikes me that this belief game isn't so smart, and that maybe we've got to do the remarkable and stop playing before we really can learn anything.

[Tisha]

OK, now I've finally decided to jump in . . . new age crap?  Do my OBE experiences dump me into New Age crapdom?  EGAD!  Do I have to start wearing purple and silver now, engaging in fluffy-bunny feel-good pseudo-spiritual practices, telling people to go-to-the-white-light and such?  ACK!  Kill me now!  Ha ha ha . . . http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_tongue.gif" border=0>

Three pages of posts and I've seen hardly one reference to anything truly "New Age."  OBE experiences are oooollllld, as old as the hills.  Ditto psychic phenomena.  Nothing "new" about it.  The shamans of old considered it rote.  

Writing about  EXPERIENCES is way different from writing about "beliefs."  But I'll write about both now.  Here is something I brought "home" from my last 2 OBEs:

We carry within ourselves an image of the entire universe.  Not really a mirror . . . more like a holograph.  Anyway, now that I feel this point to be true, whether or not I literally "leave" my body during an OBE is  IRRELEVANT!  This "lesson" ended the real/unreal or biological/spiritual argument within me.  Even by staying "in" my body, I can still go everywhere in the universe.  Wild!

Part ofspiritual development is accepting ambiguity, and transcending either/or and right/wrong dualities.  If this is your path, you might as well get used to it!

Blessings to all,
tisha

[James S]

Hey Tisha, don't knock the purple & silver, you might look good in it http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

"New-Age" has to be one of the most misused phrases of the last couple of decades. Though, maybey if you think that we are currently in a technological age, it kind of works - it's different, even if not new.

This is so cool reading others OBE experiences. Not only have I been skeptical in the past, I've been downright anti. But there's really got to be something in it. Tisha's comments are like so many others - it must be great.

Keep at it Tom. I think with forums like this, and guides by people like Robert, there is so much more info available to those who want to learn. Maybey it's just a case of finding a method that is particularly suited to you. I've really had a lot of doubts dispelled and am eager to be able to list any OBE experiences I might have on these pages.

James S
(Fate amenable to change)

[Patty]

Hey Tisha!

You rock girl. Congrats on the four projections/one night - MAN.

I loved your comments re: ambiguity --- somewhere in the last few years I finally accepted 'not knowing' as my fate in life, and it is funny - I am both drawn to people of strong conviction (and wish I had some too) and at the same time can't think of a single conviction worth being certain of.

Well, maybe that we all exist, that we're all in this together. Buddhist convictions, if that's not an oxymoron, tend to resonate with me.

I love your insight re the universe. I'm not there by any stretch, but I love hearing when a person has a piece fall into place.  The amazing insight I had the other night - really a step for me - was a recognition of my own personal strength. (Heh, just this minute realized that I had been listening to tibetan chants surrounding the three great pillars of the spiritual life - one of which is inner strength. Maybe those chants really did something!)   It feels like a rock I can lean on. A very neat feeling.

See ya -

James - glad to hear that open minded skepticism exists!

Talk to y'all later -

Patty

[Mobius]

Hi all

I guess most serious readers of metaphysical concepts & OBE's etc. feel the cringe factor every time the words "New Age" are mentioned, so many OBE type sites refrain from using it, as for most of us it conjures up images of wide eyed space cadets, walking around in some pseudo- religous type dress, banging on bongo drums in a circle & generally looking like they would be more comfortable in a nut house.

I personally refrained from going to a site called " newage.com" that I was referred to, simply because of the image I had created in my mind of what I believed "new age " encompassed. After finally checking it out I found things of interest galore, especially OBE's, so the lesson was learnt, me ignorant of the whole picture, simply because of the name associated with it, talk about judge a book by it's cover, I was disgusted & dissapointed with myself.

Tom, I'm sorry if it came across as though I was having a go at you, that was not my intention, also instead of getting the battery out, get hold of a piezo ignitor & demonstrate the natural version of electricity, unfortunately when I was a plumber, everyone had one & seemed to find great delight in demonstrating the power of 2 crystals smashing against each other, especially if you werent ready for it, hehe.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[kakkarot]

travrai blue robes: "let's think of the qualities a person looking for a single 'god' has: selfishness, self-centeredness, intolerance, narrow views, ridgidness. thinking of that, it strikes me that this belief game isn't so smart, and that maybe we've got to do the remarkable and stop playing before we really can learn anything."

hey. i believe in one God but i am not selfish (i have gone into debt at times from giving too much money away, and i help others out way more than is probably healthy), i am at times self-centered but it comes and goes in phases (besides i see being self-centered at times as natural since you can't ALWAYS center your life around everyone and everything else), i am only intolerant of stupidity and evil  :p  , i certainly don't have narrow views although i am not idiotically naive either, and i am about as rigid as molases (rather than air since i already told you i'm not naive).

as to stopping believing before you can "learn anything": even believing in the supernatural is a belief isn't it? what you should do is use logic AND wisdom to figure out what you should believe and what you shouldn't. and flexibility enough that when your beliefs are proven flat out wrong, or even slightly incorrect, it is time for a change.

as for this "new age" stuff: if a belief in something has lasted for thousands of years and through rigerous and complete opposition, then don't you think that lends some credence to the possibility that it is real?

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

[Atlas]

Haha Mobius I have returned!!

No, I was not out poisoning their minds elsewhere before they came here

Aphexcoil....I agree with you

I haven't had an OBE but "extreme vividness" is not proof that one has actually left his/her body.

To me, the defining characteristic of an OBE where you actually are LEAVING your body, HAS to be the ability to receive previously unknown real-world information through the OBE. There isn't any other way to KNOW that everything else isn't just going on inside your mind. My dreams feel EXTREMELY real, when I'm having them, but then I wake up and realize they were just that...a dream.

I put up a challenge here for anyone to come and have something like 50 chances, I don't remember exactly,  to get a 5 digit number right, and I only had one semi-taker, and that was Frank.

To me, another very damning thing is that despite the talk of governments using it, it obviously is not very successful. If someone could do this, Osama would be dead right now, as we discussed in a previous thread.

As Mobius said, we kind of had a thread about this already, it was called Reward for Osama/1 million or something like that. You might want to check it out

Cya guys

Atlas

[Ashfo]

Firstly, BD, I think you misinterpreted me.. I was quoting someone else... I strongly believe in the paranormal/spiritual etc.

There is a way of recognizing something as "true" in the scientific world without having the same results appear in a test with all the variables constant. It's called the"scientific, systematic observation of a phenomenon". For example, we accept that lightning and thunder are natural occurences. But we cannot duplicate them in a controlled environment. Using this approach is the only way to prove - or disprove - many phenomena. All your talk about "measuring" things to attain if they are real or not displays your ingrained belief in traditional science.

Your argument that hardly anyone knows of it or is studying it except a few of us doesn't stack up either. How many people knew of anything - take any well known scientific idea thesedays - before someone,  or someones - "proved" it to them? All discoveries are made by individuals or small groups. Take Reverse Speech, have you ever heard of it? I doubt it. Why not? Because even though David Oates has been reccomended for a Nobel Prize and the US military contracted him for a short while, the science of RS is not scientifically accepted.

History shows all of this to be true. You have to know whats behind you to know what to expect.

- Ashfo

Oh, whoever made comments about Osama and why he isnt caught yet with RV etc - perhaps you should consider this: Maybe the US government doesn't want him caught? While he's out there he is a licence for them to attack virtually anywhere for the "war on terrorism".

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"You are First Cause. You are a portion of the great energy. And you, yourselves are thought manifestations of what you think you are."
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

[Mobius]

Hey hey Atlas!

I knew you were around somehow & that this topic might have just been the one to get a post out of you again & if you saw your name & the things we were talking about you might be feeling a little de-ja-vu ( I need the spell check) like I was.

That was a hot topic back then & things havn't changed much now have they? I wonder if we will get this one up over a thousand times read as well?

There was heaps of links & good points put in from both sides, but I feel Osama is going to beat New age, I hope not as there is a lot to talk about.

Good to see you around again Atlas, you got some free time now that everyones bailing out of the U.S market,hehe.

Good journeys

Mobius

[Tom]

It is clear to me that I am doing something wrong. Maybe the right thread will come along, someone will tell me what that is, and after changing it I will have conscious astral projections for the rest of my life. Actually, there is a lot of room for improvement more generally.

The reason why I chose 9V batteries is that they are available very inexpensively where I work. The only way to get cheaper would be to get very good nimh batteries and reuse them until they can't take a charge anymore.