Wicca

[MoonGirl]

I think I love you, Douglas.

[James S]

That's actually one of the best breakdowns of new ways of Wicca I've read Gandalf! Well researched []

The only place I see you'd get any arguments would be from people not looking at the semantics of wicca, and how the menaing of the word has been changed, particularly through the efforts of Gardener.

Some people are led to believe that the word wicca is only new. Not so. The word "wicca" is actually very old - it translates directly as "witch" or wise one, as in old english the word witch was pronounced witcha. The word wicca has only in recent times gone from having the literal meaning of "a male witch" (where in the old language, wicce was a female witch), to being descriptive of both, or descriptive of the practice.

Modern wicca is a bit of an assemblage of different techniques from around the place, as you mentioned Gandalf. I've not been inclind to call myself "wicca", possibly for that reason. I've started down the path of Celtic wisecraft, because of my affinity with nature spirits. But in this day, techniques do have to be adapted from the traditional Celtic magic to modern ways simply because ther are some resources that are just not practical or readily available.

I also wouldn't call my path a religion. For me it is a belief born of personal experiences and a way of life. I guess to many people that does constitute a "religion", though I tend to associate religion with doctrines and dogmas, so I tend to be philosophically opposed to the term []

Kind Regards,
James.

[jilola]

Just chiming in:

What many people confuse is Wicca as a practise and wicca as a term.
The essence and some of the practises of Wicca are age old but the Wicca usually referred to is the label which is ~50 yrs old.

Wicca and the magical pracctises share some common ground but I doubt the term was used 400 years ago in the sense it's used today.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Gandalf]

guys_

Thanks for the input,
yeah, the word 'wicca' has been the subject of some research, and as you point out, it seems to stem from the Old English (anglo-saxon) word for 'wise-one' or 'witch'.
The idea that it always refered to benevolent old women who lived at the end of the village street where you went for medication is not the whole story, although this definition can be said to be approx. correct.
however the word could also be used to describe the more evil variety of 'witch', who was more supernatural, almost wraith-like, and would be a figure of local legend/fear.

However, as I said, no-one should be fooled into thinking the 'village wise woman' variety in any way made up some kind of religion which they would recognise themselves as belonging to, this is a modern myth. These characters had a skill in healing and medicine, which in some cases was passed down as a *skill*, they did not think of themselves as part of some 'old religion', any more than any other kind of skill or trade.

Anyway, the term had both positive and in many cases very negative connotations in anglo-saxon times (and later periods).
However, as said, the original definition has little to do with the modern (1950's) term, as coined by Gardner, other than the name itself and a link which should be viewed as being more 'thematic' in nature.

I agree that there is a distinction between 'Wicca' as defined by Gardner and 'Witchcraft' in more general terms. They are not in fact the same. In the US, both terms are often used interchangebly (although this is changing), but in the UK they are recognised as different. Many 'Witches' (who view themselves as *magickal practitioners* rather than following any kind of religion), do not refer to themselves as 'Wiccans', like 'Moongirl' for example. Often they follow other Magickal paths inc. gnostism, Hermetics etc, including the work of Crowely and others.

In the US this can be a problem (esp. books published by Lewellyn!).
For example, in many witchcraft books (which are actually Wiccan), we read blanket statements like 'all witches believe in the Wiccan reed, or the law of thrice fold return and so on. Well, actually many witches don't, but most Wiccans do.

What's amazing these days is the rate of growth of Wicca and paganism in general. It has really taken off this past half century and shows all signs of continuing to do so!
What's really good is that in the past few years even many academics have come around to admitting that neo-paganism is not just another fad, but is here to stay. This has been helped by the new wave of academics who are themselves pagans, as these folks have begun to filter into the academic world over the past 20 years or so. The first neo-pagan academic conference in the UK was held in 1993.

Ave,
Douglas

[narfellus]

Well, i've read thru this thread, thanks guys, great stuff. I wish more authentic wiccans would chime in though so i can ask em stuff. I printed off buckloads of info from authentic Wiccan sites and was pretty much able to pluck the real from the fake, and there is a LOT of fake thanks to crappy TV (oh wait, that's all TV).

You see, i was raised Christian, and in my own spiritual quest i've incorporated pieces of everything, going above and beyond the Bible. But the Bible is so adamant about "Do NOT WORHSHIP FALSE GODS BEFORE ME."

And the gods that Wiccans worship are polytheistic reincarnations of ancient Celtic/Greek/Roman gods, which in turn were probably elemental beings that are still little known today.

I myself am really thinking about looking into Wicca as a form of spiritual output. The love, beauty and genuine desire to know God/Goddess seems authentic if one approaches it so, not as a method to twiddle your finges and cast curses (which people do too)

What are the dangers of Wicca, if any? Dealing with spirits and summonings always makes me uneasy, i don't like the idea of dealing with such things too much, but that might just be my lack of understand and formal upbringing. Can anyone clarify?

[narfellus]

yeah, and how does that work with a Single Goddess/God Wiccan?  Seems to go against the grain of the religion.

[jilola]

I'm not sure if the injunction against worshipping "false gods" isn't a later addition to bolster the status of the christian church. Especially since the definition of "false god" isn't given, well save for "other than me".
But since god is everything and all things are an image of god it should follow that a false god is something seen as external to everything and apart from everything. Especially if this object of worship translates into thw worshippper seeing oneself as separate from unity of god.

I have a creeping suspicion that a lot of the current bible is convenient selection, some gradual additions and deft translation on the part of those who have a vested interest in the church being the top dog in the society.

As for the selection of your Gods(Goddesses) there's also the Norse mythology and the animalistic ways of worship. Check out Shinto for example.
You should have as many deities as are appropriate and make themselves know to you. Don't get fixated on numbers, balance of the aspects is more important.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[narfellus]

[I have a creeping suspicion that a lot of the current bible is convenient selection, some gradual additions and deft translation on the part of those who have a vested interest in the church being the top dog in the society.
]

My opinion of Christianity and religions in general have been thoroughly revolutionized the past few years. I'm glad to have the Christian background, it has served as a solid spiritual base, and i know that was why i was taught it unmercilessly for so long. I totally agree with what you say about the Bible being selective. There are huge chunks left out, poor translations, undefinable visions, and an overall CONTROL of people and wealth. Most religions are probably like that, but all have a core kernal of good intentions.

False gods, false gods...when i hear that term i most often think of a golden calf, or the Greek/Roman pantheon with mortalistic flaws. Useless for the most part. It's fascinating how religion works on the natural fear and confusion of humanity's duality. We don't Remember what we Are, so we made systems to explain it that had built in flaws too.

[jilola]

quote:Most religions are probably like that, but all have a core kernal of good intentions.

I'll take "which road is this" for $200.

When the good intentions become commandments, threats and intimidation they tend to lose the nice  shine of a good thing.

Indeed the original "false god" was a golden calf. Anyone see it as a synmbol of putting the material world in the driver's seat instead of the spiritual?

Also when people are confused and looking for guidance it's a golden opportunity to steer them in the direction most beneficial to the one directing.  It takes a very wise man to sincerely direct others when personal profit is to be made. Religions, in my opinion,  fail at this all the time and always have.

The most valuable thing the noe-pagan religions have is that they have taken religion back to direct and personal experience and away from dogmatic chanting of verses and sayings nobody bothers to examine for truth and appropriateness.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Silversunset]

quote:I have a creeping suspicion that a lot of the current bible is convenient selection, some gradual additions and deft translation on the part of those who have a vested interest in the church being the top dog in the society.

Not sure where that originally came from, but i've got $0.02 to add to it.

i saw a documentary a while ago about the bible and how it came to be "assembled." it told how certain books that were critical to understanding jesus were left out. many of them were written long after the time of jesus, and long after many of the 'accepted' books were written, but some of the accepted ones were written around the same time and it sounded like the only reason that these books were excluded was because they didn't fit in with the church's idea of jesus. one (which i guess is semi-common knowledge) is the book which tells how jesus killed his best friend by pushing him off of a rooftop. when the crowd gathered to confront the boy, he said "he is not dead, look" and resurected him. it also tells the story of how he created birds from clay and made them alive. apparentlythe church didn't want people to see that jesus was a bad little boy and had to learn to use his 'gifts' for good as he grew. another told how jesus and mary magdalene had a family, and the church left this out because jesus just wasn't allowed to have sex back then.

Some Books Banned from the Bible: (linked)
The Life of Adam and Eve- Eve speaks to the angels
The Book of Enoch- dream-visions
The Book of Jubilees - written by Moses (?), adds details to genesis
The Infancy Gospel of Thomas - "The Gospel of St. Thomas declares that the Kingdom of God exists upon the earth today if people just open their eyes"
The Gospel of Mary - mary as an apostle
The Apocalypse of Peter- describes heaven and hell
The Protovangelion of James - jesus' brothers and sisters were not of mary but of joseph's previous wife
The Gospel of Nicodemus - story of the passion, and decent into hell. (possibly NOT a valid book, date written and author unknown.)
( i can't find a full listing, but if anyone does i'd love to see it.)

Other Links:
Sayings by jesus from the GoST


anyways, my thought is this. How can someone who is so picky and choosy about their own religion have any say in what is absolute?
I have a feeling this should be in a christianity thread, but it was brought up here that's why i answered it here...sorry if i goofed[]

[jilola]

quote:How can someone who is so picky and choosy about their own religion have any say in what is absolute?

May I ask who you are referring to by "someone"?
If you refer to me then I probably need to reply [8D]

I think that you refer to the people who selected the bits that went into the canonical bible.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Silversunset]

no i wasn't referring to you[] for once i'm not being silly and sarcastic towards someone.

what i dont' get (and this probably should go into another forum so i'll try to make it about wicca a little):
how can someone (i.e. those who created the bible) be so picky and choosy about what they 'allow' people to read in regards to their beliefs have any valid argument that religions such as wicca are not true religions. They cut out crucial pieces of their own religion in an attempt to make it seem like everything is perfect when in reality the 'savior' has as many faults as us lowly humans. instead of embracing all writings having to do with jesus (i.e. that of St. Thomas which say that heaven is on earth at this moment and is only missed by the closed minded/eyed) they choose those that put the power of the masses into their own hands.

my understanding of wicca, there is no one set book to rely on (such as the bible) and therefore one small group of people (vatican) cannot take absolute control over the believers (what other term is there...participants maybe?). it is such a - not 'makeshift'..more like 'individualized' - belief system that there is no real way to create a ruling class in which all other participants are forced to conform to a set belief system.

hope that makes what i meant to say more clear...and make me sound like less of a stupid grump - which is how i think i normally come across when i argue things. but i'm not arguing with people now, i'm discussing, which is different[]

[jilola]

Silversunset: NO worries. The reason I asked was to figure out how to respond and to what that response should be.

I think the reason behind the selevtiveness is a desire to make the message as clear as possible;to make the goal people are supposed to strive for shine out like a beacon.

The reason to leave out stuff, on the other hand, probably has a lot to do with making the gulf between JC  and us normal people as great as possible lest we get into our heads the real teaching -  that we are as much the Son of God as he was and that there's no need for a hierarchial system of religion and church. It paves the way to a dogmatic belief system where the believers aren't encouraged to experience the truth directly but rather to accept the word and thus the value systems of others.

Wicca and the neo-pagan religions that stress the immediate and personal initiatory experience of the divine, directly and without the need for someone else telling what to believe are less likely to have a controlling influence over their members orcisely bacause of the immediacy of the divine in them.

They are a bold move away from dogmatics, or rather were, since it appears some dogma has crept back into them. But that's the nature of religion and belief when they get big enough.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[sidcev]

wicca is a misstransaltion it means which, covens have wizzirds male members and not nesaserly paginism, the wirship of supernatral beings zueses

hes also menshoned in an old testoment found in africa 200 years ago and menshions him as an angel created forth ore fith day.

"god tolk fire and throw off water and bunsed off earth sciming into the air creating lightning. to resid he named they angel zoeses". not a perficket quat.

[jilola]

Don't want to sound like a bore but is there any chance of proof reading the posts before submitting? [8D]

What do you mean?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Silversunset]

quote:wicca is a misstransaltion it means which, covens have wizzirds male members and not nesaserly paginism, the wirship of supernatral beings zueses

hes also menshoned in an old testoment found in africa 200 years ago and menshions him as an angel created forth ore fith day.

ok ready:
1. wicca is not a mistranslation, and if it was it wouldn't mean "which." It is thought that it was a mistranslation however that belief tends to be held by people who try to convince themselves that modern wicca is a re-embodiment of an ancient belief system.

2. males and females can be 'witches' - the term 'wizzard' tends to be a hollywood-ized thing.

3. wtf is a "zueses"?

4. who is this mysterious "he" who is mentioned in the african text?

5. what is a "fith"? sounds like something from star-wars.

do you even notice that your spelling is horrible? if you're going to chalk it up to being from a foreign country...maybe you should invest in an english dictionary...or pick a forum that may be better suited to your language....

[sidcev]

wicca; by Viertanne Crowley. (book)

[sidcev]

youe do get cristion covens ore healing circkels that practies not just pagin covens
after all jesues had a coven of of 5000  an iner scircle of 12 aposeles 3 maryes and was followed by lots of people how helped in his healing slike st cris an other gifted healer and beleved to be his liveing garden angel patron st of travilers

[sidcev]

look at bockes to do with stone henge the largest and pos the oldist wirshop sit on the planet some 40 million years ago a wooden post strucksher before the stone circkel

[narfellus]

Thanks for those links, Silver. Uncommon knowledge or not, i always knew books were left out, but not as to their exact content. Very, very interesting. Damn, i've not to get internet at home, i miss out on topics all weekend long...

[narfellus]

I'm having a little trouble following you sidcev. My understanding of stonehenge, and it IS very old, is that it was a direct connection to the Universal Consciousness.

[jilola]

Give the guy a break Runlola. He's dyslexcic (just read the profile). [8D]

My apologies to Sidcev. I'll read the intent and not the letters in the future  []

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

No worries. Read the smilies as well. I wasnät accusing you or anyone else, just pointing out a fact. [8D]

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

quote:tell me more about the skyclad circle you were in...

I've never been in one. I would call myself a solitary but I fear I'd get the militant wing of Wicca on my doorstep. (Which, by the way, I wouldn't mind if that wing were to be Ms. Rosenberg of a certain tv series)

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jilola]

Called sauna [] The national pastime in Finland save for those poor souls who don't see the divine inspiration behind the invention [8D]

2cents & L&L
jouni