Suicide and spiritual growth

[spiral]

ooooh! this is an interesting thread.

Depression is so complex, I feel I can't really comment on suicide in terms of morals and ethics.
I do see it as purely a learning experience for the higher self.

But I wanna share a random dream I had the other night, (I'll make it short). This person, (can't remember who) asked me to help them kill themselves, (can't remember why) and my response was "No I can't, I don't believe in death.. because life is an illusion"

Just something I've been thinking about.

[narfellus]

Nagual, myself, like you, neither want children or to be married. Maybe married one day, but for now i see no point, and in my personal belief system the only reason i see to get married is to have a core family unit to raise children...whom i don't want. It is partly that i would feel chained, but more so i feel that my life has been chosen and directed to help and serve in other ways, even if i don't remember that decision. Plus, the state of the world is rather chaotic and having the responsibility of raising a child is one i don't want. Uh...i guess that deviated from the topic some. sorry!

[Nagual]

quote:Could you specify who you refer to with "you"? There are so many psoters recently that it gets confusing

"you" being the ones who "talk mainly about suicide because of fear, or to escape problems".  If you did not talk about it, you are not "you"...   []

[jilola]

Nagual: I thought I wasn't you but I figured it doesn't hurt to confirm it. And it didn't. []

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Nagual]

I am not saying it is ok or not ok; I am just wondering about the different motivations...

Realizing that, so far, my life has been "sleep, study, sleep, study, ..., sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep, work... etc...", I tend to get a little depressed...  I just think "What's the point?"

One of my "big problem" (everything is relative) is that I loose interest VERY quickly, about EVERYTHING.  By example, even with OBEs.  I used to practice up to several hours a day... and now, I just think again "What's the point?".  And many things that people seems to enjoy or be passionate about (books/movies/art/technology/nightclubs/chatting/family/etc...) don't attract me.

So, I am just waiting... waiting for something to appear/happen...  Hope that 2012 is for real!!!  []

Help me!!!  I have the "What's the point?" syndrom!!!!!  [B)] [|)]

[Phong]

Yes, Nagual, you are mentally ill, and there's a pill we have that can fix it for you. We're  not exactly sure what it is yet, but we can have you keep trying what's available until we find one that's right for you.

In the mean time we'll be perfecting more medication for your condition, so that you will finally adopt the goods and services the market provices and be just like everybody else.

[narfellus]

There have been many times when i was extremely bored with life. And that SUCKS, because it is only mindset/interpretation, and the fact that there were alot of things about LIVING i didn't understand. I'm doing much better. The more i learn about our world and just how full of magic it is, the power of our thoughts and learning how to create our reality, hell, you can practice it every day, every moment. There is nothing boring about that, realizing that i have an inkling of an idea of what i really am, while the majority of the world rolls by in its illusion.

If you find yourself bored, and i use this advice myself, try to find your higher self through whatever metaphysical means necessary. Continue to teach and learn everyday, and realize that the more you know if this life the further you will be advanced in the next. Our time is precious here.

[Eric g]

quote:Originally posted by jilola

Where, exactly, is the difference then?
The end result is the same only the reasons are different.


2cents & L&L
Jouni

You've answered the question yourself.. => the reason

Just ot be clear these are my beliefs.

Suicide for me is like throwing away a gift it's a kinda service to self, whatever the reason may be. Don't get me wrong I would never give judgment if someone else would commit suicide..

Giving your life for some one else (whatever the reason may be) is a service to others...

[Adrian]

Greetings Nagual,

quote:Originally posted by Nagual

I am not saying it is ok or not ok; I am just wondering about the different motivations...

Realizing that, so far, my life has been "sleep, study, sleep, study, ..., sleep, work, sleep, work, sleep, work... etc...", I tend to get a little depressed...  I just think "What's the point?"

One of my "big problem" (everything is relative) is that I loose interest VERY quickly, about EVERYTHING.  By example, even with OBEs.  I used to practice up to several hours a day... and now, I just think again "What's the point?".  And many things that people seems to enjoy or be passionate about (books/movies/art/technology/nightclubs/chatting/family/etc...) don't attract me.

So, I am just waiting... waiting for something to appear/happen...  Hope that 2012 is for real!!!  []

Help me!!!  I have the "What's the point?" syndrom!!!!!  [B)] [|)]

This is the reality you have created for yourself; everyone without any exceptions creates their own reality. The more you focus on your current reality, the more it will become so until you start to focus on what you do want instead of what you do not want.

I suggest that you sit down and decide exactly what you do want, and know that you already have it. This knowing has to be beyond any sort of doubt to such an extent that you feel all of the positive emotions associated with your ideal situation. Write it down in great detail, and focus on it as often as possible. If a negative thought every enters your mind immediately focus on your new reality knowing it to be yours.

These are the Universal laws of attraction and correspondence. The entire Universe is energy, we are energy and your thoughts are energy; whatever you think, you are. Negative thoughts therefore attract the corresponding negative energies and realities and positive thoughts attract the corresponding positive energies and realities. Anyone who Astral projects will know beyond doubt that in the Astral and inner worlds you can observe thoughts taking shape, you can create anything at all with your imagination and focussed thoughts. In the Astral beings are very careful about their thoughts. There is only one set of Universal laws and therefore they equally apply to the physical world, the only difference being that manifestation of thoughts takes longer in the physical world due to the much higher density and lower vibration of matter.

If you do not like your current reality then create for yourself the reality you do want, and be absolutely sure that it is yours.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Nagual]

Ok but... the problem is that I do not know what to aim for...
I did not find anything "meaningful" yet.
Maybe one day...

And, to come back to the responsability topic: didn't the Buddha abandonned his whole family to continue on is spiritual path...?

[wisp]

Nagual,
When I was young and in school I remember one thoughtful summer I was wondering the same as you. I had an appetite for something, but I couldn't pinpoint it. I thought at the time it was these great coconut chocolate chip cookies. It was like an addiction. This night I ate a regular salad. I was eating in my room alot at that time. I pretty much had everything I wanted or needed in my own little world. I read books and looked at magazines and did all the things young people do. I might have been off from school for a short while (this happened in July). This night was growing long. I thought I would star gaze for awhile and then go to bed. When I pulled the curtain back to look out, there was a flying saucer only yards from my window. I couldn't believe it, it frightened me. I couldn't take my eyes off of it. I wanted to yell and tell everyone in the house about this. I wanted to call the police (Would they believe me though?And then there are cover-ups on the subject.). I was afraid to let this ufo know I was there, so I stayed quiet, but felt this object or who were in it knew I was there. It slowly moved over to some houses and landed. It was dark out, as it landed it's brightly colored orange glow dimmed and disappeared behind trees. I was too frightened to do anything. The next morning I told my mother what I saw. She said she had been hearing ufos for the previous two nights.She shared what she heard (she listened to one landing on our house 2 nights in a row!). We both wondered about this, but remained calm about it.

A thought that occured to me during this unreal time, the reality we know can so easily be changed. Appreciate what you have while it's here. I had no idea at the time if the world was going to change drastically! Nope, life went on. I changed a bit though.

You never know what's around the corner(or through the window...or behind the door!). It eventually all falls together. Life is a mystery. It keeps me interested.

I've enjoyed your posts, Naugal...I've wondered where you went.Here you are! Life does have it's ups and downs, don't let it get the best of you.

I have read that Buddha did leave his family for a time.

[narfellus]

Nagual, i don't know much abouttyour personal life, but let me share what has worked for me. It should be pretty universal. First, take care of your body. Watch what crap you put into it. America here feeds us terrible stuff by default, you have to go out of your way to eat healthy.

Excercise often often often. God gave us these bodies to work miracles, and they can. Horribly disfigured or obese or injured people have chosen such a path for their own lessons, but in general our bodies are made to work optimally and process incredible energy.

Try therapeutic chiropracty and reflexology./ Tend to nerves and ligaments.  Try to stay away from negative thoughts, and that is hard because most people spout negative thoughts and gossip.  AND DONT GOSSIP! It has nothing to do with anyone, just spreads lies and bad feelings.

Learn as much about spirituality as you possibly can. The New Age is 60 years upon us, and it will be divine. We can create our realities, believe it or not. This world is an energy based illusion, and our thoughts are energy based. Many books teach you how to manifest your reality, but it takes practice. Once you see the changes you'll be hooked.

Like attracts like. bad to bad and fun to fun and joy to joy and hate to hate. There are few exceptions. I learned much of this through trial and error and spent years wasting my life in boredom and listlessness. It is not necessary other than a lesson that you need. Your boredom now is a lesson, and the time is always always right to learn. keep learning always, keep loving and keep find your higher self. I'm getting better myself everyday, and i wish that upon everyone else too.

[narfellus]

oh Lola, that is just a sad story.  I wonder what it is about the Japanese culture that breeds such self loathing, so bad that groups of youth end their lives when they haven't even begun? And then the parents are fined? Yikes. I DID hear that their school system is ruthless and unforgiving, with more pressure than Americans are used to. Plus, i think they have an ancestral religious system, so their idea of the afterlife is probably very different. thanks for that tidbit.

And yes, get a pet Nagual, they are therapeutic. start easy and work up to a dog. if you like dogs that is.

[Nagual]

Yeah, I do love animals but...  that still seems like non-important to me...

Just take for example... hum... soccer.  Quite a few people seems to live just for soccer; worship soccer; etc...  while for me, watching a bunch of guys kicking in a ball, means nothing.  Some people learn the phonebook by heart.  Some people spend their life reading fiction books.  Some people spend their life on computer games.  Some people would kill if you take their cellphone away.  Etc...

Creating your reality is all nice but... to create what?  It's like taking the plane to another country and then immediatly come back without having visited anything...  Why take the plane at all?  Espescially when the ride is long/boring/tiring...

So, my problem is not really being bored; it's more having no goal; not knowing the purpose of this life.  Of course I heard of all the theories out there (afterlife, reincarnation, etc...), but theories are just theories.

And what about immortality?  Would you really want to become immortal?    It reminds me of the "Ground Hog Day" movie.

[HooVooLoo]

Welcome to the life of many, Nar.  Painful, ain't it?

Keep digging, you'll eventually find an answer I reckon'.  Have I found one?  Nope.  But hope is not just soap-on-a-rope.

We'll get there, eventually.

[Nagual]

quote:Is there anything you want? you must want something?

I know what I don't want...  I don't want to be like a robot.  I don't want to be used.  I don't want to be a good consumer that will buy countless of useless crap just to help the economy.  I don't want to be a good citizen that obediently goes to work, makes a few kids (so that there will be enough of them to pay the retirement for old people), buy a house and get a dog.  I don't want to pay taxes to sponsor some stupid games/shows on governemental TV.  I am sick of being seen as a walking wallet by the marketing guys.

It's like if you are hired for a job; but they just don't tell you what you are supposed to do.  So you just goof around... with no goal...  It's like if you work several years on a project, and then the project is finaly cancelled.

It's like being a rat in a cage, observed by some scientists.  They just watch you as you turn around in your cage, again, and again, and again...

[narfellus]

Nagual, i have a feeling you glazed through my previous post as irrelevant fluff from a stranger. I have been in your EXACT FRAME OF MIND and i know how difficult it can be to climb out of that pit. We are all here on earth in Lesson to endure fears and frustrations and obstacles in order to overcome them.  That is why we are ALL here. The tools are available to beat anything, we must find and practice and use them.

I won't and can't preach to you what to believe; no one can do that. all i can do is nudge you in the right direction, you must be willing to heal yourself. This world is full of wisdom from healers and wise men and teachers, almost all of it available on amazon.com. READ READ READ. Pray for higher knowledge and actively seek it out. You are mistaken about the boredom; having no goal or purpose creates your bordome, not vice versa. Learn the duality of mankind; you're right, most people don't know what they're doing and focus on unimportant issues and live like robots because everyone they learn from also acts like a robot. it is not who we truly are, and the reality is more wonderful than i can cram into this little post. I've been where you are and i know it is beatable. Your pain was actually picked by you before you were born so that you would be forced to seek tools to overcome it. you will grow in many ways, more than you realize.

[Phong]

quote:Originally posted by narfellus

We are all here on earth in Lesson to endure fears and frustrations and obstacles in order to overcome them.  That is why we are ALL here "..." I won't and can't preach to you what to believe; no one can do that.

Well, narfellus, you overstepped your ground. That statement, that we are all here to learn lessons and overcome fears etc., is not fact. It is a belief.

Now, it may be a fact for your case - you might have experienced a high state of consciousness where you could actually remember choosing to come to earth, or another kind of revealing experience. But if we take a look at the objective evidence available, there is little to suggest that existence (birth) is voluntary. Rather, conception is commonly the result of a decision made between two consenting adults and biological factors. Voluntary death is taboo.

This is critical for our understanding of the topic of this thread. Is existence a voluntary decision?

My own subjective experience suggests no, that existence here is a mistake (or punishment). I have an unending number of experiences that suggest this, but I will simply say that, after observing my dreams and this world side by side for some time, I would pick the dreams every time. Prior to awakening from an astral experience, I always experience a "fall," as though I've tripped, and then an abrupt "thump," as if a suit of bone and flesh encapsules me. I open my eyes to a cloud of ignorance.

People die often for no apparent reason at all - careless car accidents, disease, and natural distasters. Can we say that they learned everything they needed to learn? Aren't the lives of the young cut short? And when does life begin, anyway, at conception? When do we develop a rational self-directed personality, maybe at 4 or 5? When do we have the right to personal responsibility, 18 or 21? Is it ok to kill bad people before they attack me? What about during the attack, didn't Jesus preach "thou shalt not kill" and "turn the other cheek"? Are we responsible for someone's suicide if we yelled at them and made them sad? Are suicidal people responsible for the sadness of their family?

Oh yeah, and what is the meaning of life? Why are we here, learning... to what end? Is learning an end to itself? Isn't that.. boring?

These aren't easy questions and I am befuddled by your attempt to nudge people in the "right" direction. No hard feelings.[|)]

[Huwie]

Nagual, who says you have to have goals?

There must be certain activities you enjoy.  Photography, flying, feeding ducks even.  Whatever.  You apparently enjoy surfing the Web.  My suggestion is not to have a goal as such, but to aim to bend your life towards being able to participate in these activities as much as possible.

If I were so rich that I wouldn't have to work again (one day, one day), I would no longer have any goals.  I would simply spend my time doing what I enjoy.  None of us needs to be rich to do that, though - unless your hobbies are collecting private jets or something, heh.  So do what it takes to be able to maximise the time you can spend doing what you enjoy.  These ideals are all that get me through each crappy job I get. [|)]

[Veccolo]

Well, in my eyes, suicide is a foolish act, except the case where someone unavoidably has to die and suffers from extreme physical pain.

Everything else is foolish and irrational, in my eyes.

[Veccolo]

That wouldn't be a reason in my opinion. Even if someone is very, very old, there is nothing which could stop him/her from making friends, or having ... other relationships.

"About to go broke" ... well, I can't speak for other countries (but I hope it's similar), but here in Germany it is impossible to go completely broke, as the state helps the people with absolutely no money - if the people accept the help, what not all do for some strange reasons.

But money is no reason to commit suicide. There are always other ways.

[Phong]

Irrational decisions aren't always wrong.

[Veccolo]

I didn't say that they're wrong.

[narfellus]

Phong, that is the exact purpose of our dualtiy! []That we won't remember our previous choices. It is difficult to explain because it goes against the grain of anything that can be scientifically proven. It is also the fundamental basis of nearly all new age theology, but like i said, it is not my job nor inclination to change anyone's mind. This is a planet of Free Choice and Free Will, and anyone is free to believe what they wish. If someone asks for help (which Nagual did) i offered what i have found to be the highest truth for myself. My bounds were not overstepped. My opinion was layed out, as was yours with all respect, and that's all there is to it.

[narfellus]

I agree that suicide is generally a bad idea, but the ramifications have a lot to do with my own belief system. When someone is old and in chronic pain and there are no options for relief, then i feel that ending the existence is ok, just to get the next life started sooner (and happier hopefully). There's generally nothing more for that person, but as i think i mentioned in a previous post, one's belief system at the time of death has a lot to do with where they go after they die.