How to shed the junk

[kiauma]

I think you are already well on your way in your spiritual development.  I congratulate you!

From reading your post I think you have no problem, it is just that you are a sensitive person.  You are very empathic, and sometimes this interferes with the state of mind you desire.

I would recommend you do some reading.  Dan Ruiz's 'The Four Agreements', is very good, as is Eckhart Tolle's 'The Power of Now'.

The knowledge you will gain from reading and self reflection will help to center your awareness more squarely and discriminate between internal and external influences.

Definitely keep up the meditation, and increase it.   Constant meditation practice will be the most benefit in controlling the anxieties you feel around others.

Keep up the good work!  

[BlackTalon]

Thanks for the speedy reply i'll look that up right away!

[Frank]

I absolutely agree with the other poster; in that it is precisely these kinds of questions you are asking, that give the answers that subsequently become keys to your future development.

So how to shed the baggage...

Well, in my view, you have to rid yourself of the physical circumstances that are making you feel uncomfortable. Change your job, live in a country area, etc. But a good start can be made without this. It's just that living in towns and cities these days is too stressful. There are simply too many ego-maniacs and other aggressive problem people to avoid, and they have infected virtually every area of life and in almost every place.

I don't mean to sound picky, but in my view you would want to shed your ego in order to get a more adult view of the world. Because the more egotistical a person becomes the more childish and silly they appear. Well to me that is. You know, these people who love to play with the latest gadgets and stuff. My gadget is more powerful and only half the size of your gadget... so it goes on, ad infinitum.

You are sensitive to people's moods as I am. I too find it difficult being among crowds of people as, after a while, I start to feel drained from all the negativity. For example, in typical cities these days you cannot just simply drive down the street without coming across hoards of ego-maniacs using their cars as some kind of awfulness weapon. The only way I found to survive when I lived in London years ago, was to work as few hours as possible and the rest of the time I'd drive to country areas and go for long walks. As soon as I could afford it I moved to the country, and now I gave up the rat-race altogether.

This may sound a little extreme to some, but I've been at this a long time so I've learnt a lot; and it's impossible for me to condense 20-odd years of learning into a paragraph or two without sounding extreme.

First I suggest you strip your life of all the capitalist clap-trap they feed people with. Stop buying any commercial goods apart from your very basic needs; stop drinking alcohol or taking drugs or any other kind of conventional drug or medicine. 99% of disease or bodily problems are caused by not eating the right kind of food. So your diet should consist of almost all raw food, i.e. fresh vegetables and fruits together with perhaps a little boiled potatoes or rice, though my favourite is quinoa. No animal whatsoever, no added sugar or salt, and no caffeine.

Being free of stimulants such as salt or caffeine a person's nightly sleep will become deeper and they will awake far more refreshed and alert, ready to enjoy the day. So when you do come across stressful situations they'll still get you down, but because you are "up" much higher in the first place you won't get dragged down anywhere near as far. So your current life becomes much easier to handle in other words.

Plus, the act of having to digest processed foods high in fats and animal protein places a tremendous load on the physical body, which severely depletes a person's energy. Myself I skip lightly through my day, never have a headache or any kind of other ache, pain or sickness that typically plagues many other people my age. For example: I know people my age with fairly severe arthritis who take a whole cocktail of drugs just to get them through their day. Well, they've got all the dairy products they consumed to thank for that!

Years ago we were suppressed by the men in the black coats (the priests, religous fanatics, et al) and today we are suppressed by the men in the white coats (the medical quacks). But when you get your diet in order, your body stays healthy and you have no need of these people and their products. And like I say, your day becomes a whole lot easier to manage.

The other thing I'd suggest is to stop watching TV or listening to any other kind of mass media or commercial music. Become introspective, listen to classical music (particularly violin and/or flute), have long baths by candlelight, and go for walks in amongst nature as often as possible, and practise astral projection and/or mediation as often as you can. Every day if possible.

You'll find the more you introspective you become, the more inner guidance you will receive. After a while you will learn to trust your inner voice. This will help guide you through stressful situations so you'll never feel at a loss about what to do. Also, negative feelings such as disappointment or confusion simply won't come into your life any more. Like you say, you can't unlearn or unsee your past. But you can leave it behind by substituting what you are doing now with things that are more beneficial to you in the long run.

HTH

Yours,
Frank

[BlackTalon]

Thanks for your input Frank. I don't know if I can avoid the caffiene though

I know when I was younger i always wanted to run away to some sort of commune or join a buddhist colony and just get away from everything...but things are a little different now. I feel I can change myself and still be able to live in the same world, around egotistical people, or negative people in general. I don't want to run from them I want to learn to be able to live with them and myself better.

I was one of those people when I was younger so I try not to look down on them even know they can be annoying ...besides It was a very spiritual ( non judgemental )person who helped me out of that egotistical way of life of drugs and drinking that I was in...so I should only follow in her footsteps. ( pay it forward so to speak )

One thing that popped into my mind just now...I don't know much about the bible but ...and don't really follow it but I think jesus spent alot of time with the lowlife scum of society and didnt treat them or judge them any differently so it seems suiting I should be able to accept them and learn to live them their differences...at least thats how I "feel" I should.

You have some good suggestions but I don't think that is really the direction i'm heading...at this moment anyways.

[Kenneth]

Hello BlackTalon!

I completely agree with Kiauma and Frank, that you are on the "right track", just by asking these questions, speculating about them etc.

Just the other day I wrote a "little" post here, that might help you, as many of the things you describe sounds very familiar to me!

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14031

Your main question is (as I see it), that you would like to "shed" yourself of your Ego... Well, I would like to make a friendly "challenge", by counterquesting YOU - Why would you so eagerly throw away something, that you have gone through so much pain to acquire ? []

If you have the patience, then a little made-up story I thought up on my way home from work might clarify where I see things from, and what I mean by this question []. (This story is not to make any fun what so ever of your situation or your questions, as I my self have only recently become more aware - and in the light of the story, "I have just taken my first steps, and learned how to stand"... []


-----------


A little baby is crawling on the wooden floor, and getting more and more upset about seeing his parents walk around the house, going up the stairs, and actually RUNNING to catch the phone, when it is ringing [:O]

"I want to be able to walk and run too!", the baby thinks, while cursing over the latest of all the different bruises, cuts and scratches on his small knees and feet from all the crawling around, loosing his balance, and bumping into different obstacles on the floor [B)].

He looks down at his legs, and up at his fathers legs, and asks with a very serious voice (Authors note: Okay - i know!! ... but this IS a story, and in My universe, baby's DO speak [])...

"Daddy - I want to be able to walk and run too, I don't want these bruises and cuts, they hurt, and now i KNOW, that there is something better I can get. Would you please tell me, how I can get rid of these legs, and get my self a new pair, so I too can run and walk?"

The father - a former World Champion Marathon runner - looks over at his wife (a double Gold medalist in the 100 meter sprint), with a little smile, and they both look in Your direction, and asks:

"Please - Would you help us explain this to our son ?"
.
.
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With the kindest regards, and all the hope and happines, that I can send in your direction,

[Jonas K strand]

hello everybody.

i just have another point of view here... it really sounds great that long walks in the forest, healthy foods and daily meditations will rid us from problems. im sure its a very good base to build upon but in my opinion the past will not just go away that easy. ive been through very "bad emotions" during the last few years, and my meditation has made them come up easier i suppose.

so, all these things is so valuable, to eat healthy and not use intoxicants and so on, but dont expect it to be a dance on roses only. bad times will come, its natural and nothing to worry about.  
if we have stress in us, its good when it comes to the surface, just stay calm about it and it will pass away, atleast i hope so!

/jonas

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Jonas K strand

hello everybody.

i just have another point of view here... it really sounds great that long walks in the forest, healthy foods and daily meditations will rid us from problems.

Well of course it will. Because the "problems" have only come about because a person lives a completely unnatural lifestyle. A lifestyle that places great stress on the body. Living naturally is not just valuable, it is absolutely vital if good health, both mental and physical, is to be attained throughout the course of a person's life.

You go on to say that mental bad-times are only "natural". My question is, why should bad times be natural? Surely, happiness must be the natural mental state, and health must be the natural physical state of the body.

I'm sorry to be seeming to cut a swathe through your post, and I do respect your opinion, but it is only because people insist on abusing themselves by intaking poisons into their bodily system they fall ill. That sickness does not just affect their physical system, it screws with their brain also. And it is only because this kind of abuse has become SO darned prevalent in society at large, it has become "normal".

For example, caffeine addiction has become so widespread people invariably assume that I too am addicted. People will ask me, "would you like tea or coffee?" Assuming I'm addicted to one or the other. On giving a polite refusal they almost always offer me sugar instead, in the form of a manufactured fruit-flavoured drink; because most people are addicted to sugar in addition to caffeine.

When I ask for just a glass of plain water they think it's weird and unnatural. But what could be more "natural" than drinking pure water? But that's how screwed society has become.

Yours,
Frank

[kiauma]

Oh yes.   I drink (what have you) on occasion, but in general I avoid just what you say Frank, and more often than not wind up with water at my table.

It is absolutely true, everything you say about how abusive modern life can be to the body and spirit - but I also think there is a purpose to it, even beyond it's 'negative' teaching to take care of myself.

I sure do envy you though.  []

[halfphased]

BlackTalon,  Well met, well met indeed!  You and I have chosen to walk similar roads.  I can not thank you enough for starting this thread.

I work in a one hour photo lab.  I have to deal with people all day long and it's my job to keep people happy no matter what they throw at me.  If someone's film is late or missing or not 100% to their satisfaction, I get to take the blunt end of their dissatisfaction whether or not I am in any way responsible.  So, needless to say, that I am flooded with negativity.  You must understand how seriously people take their pictures.  They think pictures are the most valuable things in the world as they capture moments that they want to keep forever.  Of course, I understand, but I come from an entirely different place in that I try not to value any one moment over any other moment.  Plus, if you really want to remember something, we have far better means to do so internally.  Although, that ability is being quickly widdled away, since we are transfering that skill to machines.  

So, basically, I also want to get rid of this attachment to the ego to suffering, etc.  And yes BlackTalon, although I also am not a Christian (been there and done that) I do find much value in the teachings of Jesus.  What I would like to embody is what my friends and I call "the Jesus love"  No matter what comes my way, I want to be able to remain composed and find love in all.  Even when someone is yelling at me because their photos are 3 seconds late and they are afraid they are lost forever or some other nonsense, I want to be able to see that these people are also here to develope spiritually and that they are learning their lessons but they have not learned the same lessons as I have and that I too maybe earlier in this life and in lifes past may also have reacted so dramatically over some piece of paper ... and that we all come from the same stuff we all are one and see that all there is is love for them.  But even if I do have this intellectual understanding, I still get stressed out and I still find myself reacting to these people and I just want to go home and not have to worry about photos anymore.  

I try to tell myself that if I could see clearly and not be attached to my ego that I could work this job and not feel it take any toll on me.  Rather, I could always act in a way that would help bing joy into people's lives.  I may not be able to sit and have a philosophical discussion with them and get them to see the emptiness of their attachment to tiny sheets of paper, but I may be able to serve them in such a way that would help calm their nerves and brighten their day instead of falling into anger over their photos.

So, yes, I see where you are BlackTalon and I know that feeling of being stabbed in the chest, etc.  I don't want to dread the moment a person walks up to the counter, because I'm reacting due to my thousands of bad experiences with previous customers.  Oh lord, I just want to run away and leave it all behind.  I'm tired, so tired of it.  I know if  wanted to I could live a life where I did not have to be in the world.  I might have to retreat to a ashram or monastary and I wouldn't get to do things exactly how I think I want to do them, but I wouldn't have to be pushed around by people who can't even see that they are pushing.  

I will follow kitamu's advice.  It is what I tell myself to do.

However, I don't want to have to flee from my brothers and sisters in order to find peace.  I want to find peace wherever I go.  I want to be able to flow with whatever comes my way.  But am I deluded to think that I can be happy in any circumstance?  

I know I could get a different job, but that doesn't seem to solve the problem.  It just seems like I am avoiding it.  Although, if I was at a less stressful job, I may find my life easier and that I am more happier and better able to work on myself and in doing so, I might get to the jesus love and find that I never have to worry about negative energy and being pulled around etc.

Thanks for allowing me to express myself.  whew.  Be well and lots of love.

[halfphased]

I guess I should add that I am vegan.  So, I don't eat any animal products (there are so many good reasons to not eat anything from animals.  Entire books have been written on the subject)  I did try a completely raw diet, for a time.  I felt so good and so light, but I found that I was a little low on energy and that i was spending 3x to 4x more on food.  I would love to do it if I could figure out how to solve those dilemmas.

I also mainly drink water and sometimes fruit juice.  On occasion I'll drink a soda (if the vending machine gives me dr. pepper when I ask for bottled water! heh)  and a little bit of tea.  But 90% of the time it is water water water.

I do not watch television, except for the occasional movie or if I happen to learn about a particularly good show, I will get the dvds or tapes and watch it.  

I also practice yoga and meditate pretty much every day.

All of this has deffinetely enhanced the quality of my being.  Life is smoother and I feel better and my mood is almost always positive.  However, I still have issues with being in public places and dealing with customers at work.  Taking these steps help, but they have yet to take me to where I want to be.

[BlackTalon]

Well I was going to reply, and ended up writing half a books worth of what I was trying to get across and I realized in my writing how many times I contradicted myself and how much I learned about myself just in that small writing...i'm gonna go right now and start writing a journal and disect my life from my earliest memories, and really ask myself some questions...i'll see what kind of conclusion I come to then i'll reply. Thanks for the inputs!

[BlackTalon]

Well I think that journals gonna take some time, I didn't want to tell my life story on here...anways I missed your post you had there halfphased and just read it now and had to laugh at how you explained working with your customers I know the feeling. Sounds like were roughly going down the same path...you got directions? lol. I think were lost..or not...ok back to reality...I commend you for becoming a vegan I on the other hand am not ready for that yet!

I found today I tried to look at everyone equily without judging them or worried about how people would respond to me or put any energy to what I thought people thought of me. I would great everyone I seen equilly with a smile.  I know usually I wouldnt great certain people the same way as I thought they would either ignore me and I didn't like the feeling of saying hi or goodmorning only to hear your echoe. I'ts funny some people almost looked shocked as they wake up and get a coffee and you say goodmorning to them with a smile but to make sure you look in their eyes as you say it, they almost jump out of their skin like they realized they're alive all of a sudden it's really interesting lol.  It's like, hey I got a new friend now as they start a conversation with you. heh..makes me teary eyed just thinking about it now lol. I can't believe i've been so selfish of my own feelings to not welcome someone as my brother just because I thought they wouldnt respond! lol /hits head on wall. I got alot to learn.

I firmly believe it's the small things you do for others thats the most important, it also seems to be so from the NDE's i've read. Makes sense how small things like a smile to one person can effect many people down the chain. After this experiment today I also felt like there was an imaginary field that made people notice I was there, hard to explain, like I felt people felt I was approachable the way I'd see a certain person looking my way and i'd catch them as i'd look around....unless I had something on my face lol...but I duno, i'm gonna keep trying these experiments out and see what happens.

Kenneth, as for your question I think what I want to throw away is not the pain because that has made me what I am...but the false image I have of myself and other people. Basically judging someone because someone else like them was a certain way. Say some young kid breaks into your car and next time you see a young kid your weary of him thinking your gonna break into his car...or thinking this person is looking down on me because of so & so reason. If that makes sense.

[Kenneth]

Hello halfphased (And BlackTalon too [])

Nice to meet you, and really nice to hear, that others are on the same path as well.

There are others in this forum, (And even in this thread, I believe), that have mentioned a book by Ekhart Tolle, called "The power of now", that I also would recommend very much!

Much of the space in that book is centered around, what he calls the "Body of Pain" (Smertelegemet), that actually is the Ego's reflection (or shadow) inside of you.

More precisely it is (As I understand it), the feelings and thoughts you one way or another don't want or know how to handle / have the ressources at the moment to handle.

The "technical" side to the Body of pain is exemplified here through your story (I have taken a lot of liberties, and made a lot of assumptions in this text, but i hope, that you get the meaning, and don't get stuck with errors in my assumptions[]):

- A customer walks up to you, and is very intruding / intrusive in his behaviour (He is actually burried deep in his own Body of pain [B)]). This gets the EgoDefence in you (Whose job it is to "protect" us), fully awake, and it feels inside like we "raise" our barriers, (Sort of "prepares" for an unknown battle, becoming very "alert" and "attentive").

You actually gets pi**** (?, depending on, if you are an Offensive or Defensive personality yourself) about this persons behaviour if he is intrusive enough (Feeling angry, stepped on), and wants to "react" - perhaps "fight back". (Some sort of aggression, anger), but then the Ego steps in again with a "block" (Either a direct feeling of perhaps loosing your job if you do, or a more general feeling of "I don't wanna go there"...It can also be a very strong thought, that in itself triggers a feeling of "Don't", that amplifies this thought, that again amplifies the feeling etc. etc.

The customer actually feels this "backing down" as a sort of "Victory", and will in some cases pursue this further - trying to annoy you more - to get you deeper into those feelings. In these situations there is also often a strong feeling of being powerless, as Opposite feelings are in their nature only the two sides of the same coin!, like the South and Northpole.

(The customer feels this effect as being increasingly powerfull, a rather pleasant feeling, if you don't know that it actually at the same time creates a great hidden fear of loosing this feeling of power inside of him, i.e. feeling powerless - hence the North / south pole comparison).

Afterwards you feel very drained, and feel like your whole inside has been shaken violently, sometimes even to the degree, that your body actually starts shaking too. Often a "weak" feeling of relief follows (Like "I'm glad this is over), and you would "jump" into that feeling, or sometimes the fight actually continues inside your thoughts and your feelings - you sort of "replay" this encounter again and again, trying to find a "way out".. Until some other customer or situaion sort of "drags" you out of this repetitive thought<->emotion pattern.

(The Ego-defence is in many ways similar to the body's immune system, and one of the properties of it is, that it is very much like a "program" being written into your mind - the more powerfull feelings and thoughts, the "deeper" the program is actually written. It is also actually a very simple (But powerfull!) mechanism, that reacts the same way again and again. It doesn't distinquish between situations - if a situation is the least bit similar, it gets treated the same way! ... It is here, that the "mal-function" often occurs, much like the imune system reacting similar to Pollen as it does to a Virus - and thus creating Allergies of different kinds).

This is the mechanism - but where is the "shadow" of the Ego-defence, the Body of Pain in this - and how does it works?

Well, if you look at the above situation, there were actually a large number of different feelings involved, that came so fast and so powerfull, that you didn't have time to react to them. (A normal feeling under normal circumstances lasts about 8-10 seconds, and it feels like a wave washing over you - the same "rythm" as a large wave washing on to the shore).

In the actual situation the emotions changed much too quickly to enable you to be aware in the moment, and actually "feel" the feeling rise and eventually leave you, so the Ego defence used one of it's other possibilities to "save" you. It called the Energy-body in to help it save you, and sort of "directed" (or "stopped") the feeling as it still is inside your emotional body - sort of like "put a temporary lid" of energy on the feeling inside of you, so you didn't black out, or got into chock (Which is also one the Ego-defences "tools" to save you).

We have normally not learned how to "clean" our emotional bodies and our energy-bodies our selfes, as we normally would clean our physical body, so these feelings with a "lid" on stays right were they are [B)]. You don't feel them anymore (There is a lid on them now, remember) - and you decide a little while later, that you "certainly don't wanna feel like that again ever!!" ...

The Ego-defence hears you, and obeyes your command - after all, it IS you that are in charge, or? []. It reinforces the lid - in reality seperating you more from those feelings.

The next time an intrusive customer comes in, the scene sort of replayes itself - with the addition, that now the Ego-defence KNOWS from the last time, how you want your feelings handled ... And so it puts them right where it put the last feelings. The more this pattern is repeated, the better the Ego system gets at "hiding" your true feelings from you. In the end you just don't feel them anymore - you just feel the tirednes associated with the energy loss used to hold the "Block" in place.

This goes on and on and on....And where is the "shadow" part then in this? ... Well, the feelings you have "stored" inside of you, is actually a part of you, that you have decided at one time or another, you DON'T want anything to do with anymore! .... (Or more precisely - you Ego system has decided for you, because you were otherwise engaged at that exact moment when this took place).

Feelings in their nature only wants acknowledgement - feelings Want to be felt! ... No more, no less []

But here comes the first "Inner conflict" ... because what happens, when these feelings try to "make it to the surface" ? ... Remember, the Ego defence is just a "stupid program"! ... Yup - the neversleeping Ego-defence rices to the occation in the start of the feeling, right when you have a glimpse of the feeling, and tries to put it right back were it was - with the extra feelings you had time to "produce" but not "feel through" before it shut them down, and (to be sure it doesn't happen again, with an extra strong lid or energy block).

But what happens when the situations continues to occur, and each time the stored feelings get stronger and stronger - and hence requeires a stronger and stronger block? ... Is there a "limit" to HOW much of a given type of feeling the Energy body can contain? ...

Yes, there is, and when the Ego defence reaches this limit, it uses another tool, that creates another feeling for you to feel instead, that you (perhaps) are more comfortable with, and makes an unconcious and automatic "path-way" between those feelings. This (when continued for long enough time, or with strong enough feelings) gives the effect, that emotions gets "layered" inside of you - that one feeling leads to another, that leads to yeat another, that actually leads to a feeling you CAN currently handle - and THAT feeling is what you (The conscius you) feel, even though your BODY feels a totally different feeling.


Pheu, this is a long text - hope you are still with me []


So - are there any other "fun [xx(]" side-effects of this Ego-defence <-> Body of Pain <-> Physical body relation ship?

Yes, a couple [}:)]

Wanna know WHY the "good" feelings inside of you actually feels like they get "smaller and smaller" - or that you feel them less and less?

Well - remember from earlier, that Feelings are in fact a "pair", like two sides of the same coin, that IN THEIR CORE contains the exact opposite feeling? ... Well, the Ego-defence knows this - That the feeling of Joy actually contains the "seed" of Sadness - eventually leads to sadness. etc. etc.
(I am still looking for a place, where I can find a diagram of feelings and their opposite - If you know of such a place, please drop me a mail!!)
What was it now, that the Ego defence did? ... Yup - it protected you from the "bad" feeling - and IT knows, that the opposite feeling often "triggers" the bad feeling, so what does it do? ... You guessed it [], it actually put a lid on the GOOD feeling as well!

This is also why an addiction is NEVER FULFILLED!! .... An addiction is - imho - an "escape" from such a set of feelings - and the addiction tries to move as far away as possible FROM the dangerous feeling(s) - and where are that ? ... Yup - into the direct opposite feeling, that in it's core has ... etc. etc. etc.

The Ego system knows, that these stored feelings (Or more precisely THE BLOCKS USED TO HOLD THE FEELINGS AWAY FROM YOU) are not healthy for you, that they eventually leads to ilnesses and even death. (Death you ask - how ? ... Well, what do you think happens, when even the energy body is not strong enough to hold the feelings ? .... Well, the Ego defence moves another layer outwards then, to an even STRONGER body - the Physical! .... THAT is why (IMHO), I believe, that a dissease IN IT'S VERY CORE HOLDS IT'S OWN CURE!! .... (Journeyworks uses this exact ability of a dissease and of emotions in their courses - described in the book "The Journey" by Brandon Bays)

It has yet another tool that it uses, when these dangerous feelings become TOO powerfull for it to hold. (Or actually, when YOU are drained of energy, then there is simply not enough energy left in your system to hold the blocks in place - and the Feelings that only want to be felt, rises to the surface). This "extra" tool is to "move" your focus and awareness AWAY from the feeling and into some External activity - then those feelings CAN NOT be felt, and the Ego-defence has fulfilled its purpose once again.

(A little side-note here - these "lids" or "Blocks" inside is made of your Life-energy, and they require a LOT of energy. If you ever have had a so-called "Golden moment" when it felt like Time stood still for an all too short second, where there were absolutely NO trace of resistance inside of you, where you felt ALIVE and WHOLE, and at peace with the world and yourself - then try a simple math-piece now: Your energy in "The Golden Moment" minus your energy in "Your current state" equals the amount of energy and "space" used to contain your suppressed feelings(!) [:O]

So what are those "external activities" ? ... Remember the Customer that harrased you in the start of this text ? ... That is one of them - and a weaker one even! .... Try all the "darkest" activities (And also all other activities that are extreme enough, that they can hold the attention of a person captured), that mankind enganges itself in - and in their core you WILL find an Ego-system trying desperately to defend a person from his own accumulated "dangerous" feelings and thoughts[V]. The Ego-system actually "triggers" this activity, when it starts to "loose" control over the contained feeling(s) inside.

Ever seen a person "shift" from a "normal" person, and into their Body of Pain? ... If it is powerfull enough, you can actually see the eyes sort of "glace over", and it feels like the person you know has completely disappeared.

In the "extreme" cases of this, a person can actually develop split personalities, that act (Actually, they don't "act" as sorts - remember, they ARE actually accumulated "dangerous" feelings originating from the person) like they are individual persons them selfes, and the "real" person is "shut down" when this occurs [V].

(I know, that some people in their very soul believes, that there exists things as Possessions etc, and I am not sure if they are right or wrong. But I DO know, that I first try to seek a "down to earth" explanation for certain things, before I move on to supernatual things. If there exists such things as Negs and Poltergeists, I honestly don't know [?], but until I have proof of one or the other, I choose to believe in this explanation, as it actually gives me a possibility to DO something active about my self every day!)

Ever wonder why Psycologists are so interested in your child-hood? ... Well, my guess is, that since the EgoDefence is an "Automatic system", much like our Body's Immune system, it actually lacks the ability to (on it's own) "change" programs, once they are put in place. So a feeling you experienced as a child WILL still be there - even though you perhaps HAVE talked about it many times. Remember - it is NOT the situation that is contained in your body, but the Emotions attached to that particular situation. And the body remembers - Oh, yeah - it doesn't forget. But the GOOD part about this is, that you CAN use the nature of feelings (They only want to be felt), in combination with your Active Awareness (Just FEEL the feeling, don't create NEW pain by Identifying yourself WITH the pain) - but remember, the Program in your EgoDefence is STILL running at full strength - and that tries its best to keep you AWAY from the feeling !! ... []. It is Active Awareness and Consciusness directed at the actual pattern that can change it. (Is my experience with my "own" patterns and old emotions).

Well, there are many other consequences of this little "system" inside of each and every one of us, but please feel free to ask for clarification and if you disagree with me as well. I would REALLY like to get to know my self better []


So, to end this - a little "statement" []

You as a person seeks "wholeness" - So now you have one guess(!), on what lies ahead of you - or rather inside of you - before you reach that wholeness, that Inner core - The inner peace [}:)]


THIS is why I feel, that our Emotions and our previous "pain" is so very, very important to each and every one of us! .... It is my sincere believe, that you CAN Go THROUGH your own "hell", and you WILL find Heaven []. THIS has become MY inner path, because it contains "down to earth" logic and reason, that LEADS directly to spirituality. This is a way that I can understand, and that I can actually apply to my everyday life.

It DOES change me - not in a "radical" way, but more like I start out by running on an engine with multiple errors, and layer by layer get it fixed, until it runs like a Formula1 engine. It is still the exact same engine as I started out with - but so much more TRUE!

(And please remember, that everytime you takes side, you actually creates a (albeit very small) "split" in yourself. Every time you does something "despite" of yourself, you move away from something inside of yourself. This also makes EVERY SINGLE SITUATION IN YOUR DAILY LIFE an oppertunity to actually be Aware and alert on your inside - and if you encounter resistance, to FEEL that resistance through sheer awareness, and the contact with your inner body - until it "releases" it self, and you actually have healed a litle part of your self back - and released a similar amount of energy to do MORE feeling with []).

So - get the Ball rolling, and start cleaning up those inner blocks and feelings, they are there ALL THE TIME, in EVERY SITUATION, just ready to be felt, acknowledged and released []

Cheers - and happy reading - from a (now) very tired

[BlackTalon]

btw Enjoyed your baby story Keneth heh...i'm gonna have a read on your post you mentioned.

[halfphased]

Nice post Kenneth.  Thanks for taking the time to write it.  I'm so tired right now, that I think I will need to read it again when I am more awake.

BlackTalon, I have no directions but we do have our inner guidance and the more I trust in it the smoother things get

It's cool to hear about the success with your experiment.  I think I should try it.

You know what's funny about my situation.  I smile at the customers and try and am friendly with them, but I'm working at a one hour photo place.  So, if I take a little too long with the customers, i got my coworkers down my back for taking too much time with the customers! lol   So even though I want to be me with the customers, I feel compelled to be a blank wall so that the customers will move on.  So many things to work on... heh  Man, it's hillarious.

[Frank]

Thank you, Jonas, for your response.

I see now exactly where you are coming from. It is the context in which we place the word natural which is the crux of the difference.

Though again it just goes to show, where you say about my use of the word natural as a goal, how the human race has gone so far off track that we now think of our natural state as being something we strive for; something we now have to try so hard to achieve; as opposed to our natural state being something that should merely be, something that we should simply grow up as.

With all due respect to those who think differently, I don't buy this Jesus point of view; where people think they should somehow suffer the actions of others and not have it affect them and all that jazz. I'm sorry, but it does sound a teeny bit like playing the martyr to me.

Someone even went so far as to call avoiding certain types of people as running away. Hmm, I call it voting with my feet. So in my opinion, a person should avoid particular types of people; just like they should avoid eating certain foods, or living in polluted areas, and so forth.

I thought it especially interesting, where you say: "only when we start to experience that this persons anger is his problem, and my reaction to that anger is my problem, then the love for that person will come naturally i believe, but not when we blame him for being the cause of my suffering."

You saying that brought home to me how I, for whatever reason, have always realised that the angry person's anger is their problem. Which is why I simply don't react to anyone else's anger, therefore, there can be no blame either. But I'm not sure where the love comes in! I can see the pain and the suffering these people are going through. After all, it's written all over their faces. But it's ultimately their problem at the end of the day, not mine.

What does upset me, however, is the way these angry ego-maniacs are collectively raping, destroying and polluting the planet in their constant striving for yet more power and wealth. When I read about how the livelihoods of innocent native people are being swept away by the incessant momentum of the capitalist machine; and think about the billions of innocent creatures that are simply bred for slaughter each year. When I think of the sheer intensity of the suffering those innocent people and those billions of innocent creatures must go through... I admit, I do find that extremely hard to handle.  

Placing a border to me is easy. I just use my instinct. When you follow the natural way it simply becomes obvious.

One of the main faculties people lose is the ability to know what is good for them, and what is not. Take the case with food, for example, animals in the wild instinctively know what foods they need to eat. You won't see a lion eating fruits any more than you'll see a monkey hunting game. Because animals are naturally furnished with all the faculties they need in order to feed themselves.

The human animal was no different. Incidentally, this should be all the evidence we need that clearly tell us we were never designed to eat meat: we simply do not have the necessary natural faculties. However, most people in western society (and in others) have completely lost the ability to reason in this respect. So they, in turn, completely lost the instinct that told them what is good food and what is not.

I suppose the instinct is still there, hidden under layer upon layer of modern-day social conditioning and ego attachment. But if a person were to strip away these layers and begin living a natural lifestyle, then I'm guessing the basic instincts would come back. But I'm not sure whether all the physical damage would repair itself. People can get to the stage where they are just too far gone, and it's like they lose their reverse gear.

Like I said in an earlier post, I know people my age who suffer fairly chronic diseases. All of which have been caused as a direct result of a lifetime of eating the wrong types of food. And if people can become physically too far gone to effect a complete repair, then this almost certainly would apply mentally too.

Anyhow, the best of luck in your quest. Yes, what an interesting discussion this turned out to be!

Yours,
Frank

PS
Bad food in the belly, bad thoughts in the head. That's what I always say. And I think you'll find that saying is truer than most people would believe.

[BlackTalon]

quote:Originally posted by Frank


With all due respect to those who think differently, I don't buy this Jesus point of view; where people think they should somehow suffer the actions of others and not have it affect them and all that jazz. I'm sorry, but it does sound a teeny bit like playing the martyr to me.

Everyone has their own path I suppose you follow what you feel is right, for me personally I'm following this path as I feel it is right ( for me ), I can't speak for Jonas..the jesus part was just a good example of how I feel I should live. Like I said in another post my life was drastically changed by someone who was non judgemental..she had young offenders living in her home with her because their parents didn't want them.

I changed my life by her examples...if you spent enough time with certain types of people that are at the bottem of the barrel so to speak and you great them like a family member their whole energy changes before you, like they feel worthy again.  They always make sure to look you in the eyes and shake your hand, well most anyways. Then of course theres the people that have no clue and don't really give a sh#t about you or anyone else..but if you go out of your way to give something of yourself to them they remember that. For me I feel it's a better option as it's puts positive into the world serving others and in small bits makes the world a better place and I don't feel i'm suffering, unless i'm judging these people then it's different.

Like I said we all have our paths, and I can see your side of the coin but it's the path i'm going to follow right now. A payed holiday would be nice howerver!


I have one question for you i'm curious about, what made you decide to not eat meat? ...i'm assuming you weren't a vegitarian or vegan your whole life.

[Kenneth]

Hi Frank!

You are absolutely right, this has turned out to be a very interesting discusison []

With all due respect to those who think differently, I don't buy this Jesus point of view; where people think they should somehow suffer the actions of others and not have it affect them and all that jazz. I'm sorry, but it does sound a teeny bit like playing the martyr to me.

I do agree with both of you - and I don't agree *LOL* .... [] If I could invite you to a little "experiment" right NOW (this moment, AS you are reading this!), I would be a very happy camper [] ...

(It actually has allready started - my guess is, that THAT statement about an "experiment" created a reaction in your body, and THAT reaction is either a resistance or an attraction.

While you read this now, try to "shut your thoughts off", and "split" your awareness between this you are reading, and your entire body, and explore that "reaction".

(CHOOSE to understand it with your body, instead of with your Mind)...

Now, I'm going to write somehting, that I KNOW will create a reaction in your body - and this is entirely on purpose. [}:)]

Your quest is to Explore your reaction with the purpose of exploring your resistance(s) and attractions inside, and ONLY the resistance and attractions - without being either drawn to it, or pushed away from it, and without categorizing (i.e "This I don't like!"), judging ("He's right / He's wrong"), taking side, etc. [}:)] ...

If you end up DOING any of these things RIGHT NOW while exploring your Bodys reaction, we win - because then you will have learned what it does NOT mean to be in the now, and if you succeed, we win, because then you will have experienced what it means to actively BE in what your body feels, without drowning (or "loosing") yourself IN the resistance / attraction.

The difference being Looking at the "direction" the attraction or resistance "points", or actually FOLLOWING where the resistance / attraction points to (Or, in other words, BECOMING the resistance / attraction [])

Btw: The above IS my oppinion in our little discussion []
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[]



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Oh - You felt a feeling of "Isn't there something missing here, what about that statement ? .... or did you Think it ? - where is your Awareness RIGHT NOW? ... In your mind, in your body - or busy being aware of everything at the same time?

Well, you are absolutely right - you CAN'T understand your body's reaction with your mind (Thougths and emotions), but you can FEEL your emotions with your awareness, like putting your hands in hot water - there IS nothing more than this to this little Experiment, other than it's our choise for how many times we will repeat this "Being aware" thingy. (THIS is what I think Jesus meant - that WE ALL can use the resistance/attraction in ALL situations to actually "sharpen" our awareness inside, our awareness on our Thoughts, our reactions, our emotions, our actions, your bodys reaction, etc. etc.

And believe me - there is NOTHING about martyrism in Exploring your inside - Martyrism appears, when you BECOME that attraction / resistance, or more precisely CHOOSE to go where it pushes / draws you!

[Jonas K strand]

hurray!

i really think that we can learn so much when being present.
my experience is that it gives insights, direct knowledge. but only if we keep ourselves detatched. when the mind (maby unconsious, the mind is very deep) reacts, being in thie greyzone between suffering and not suffering we have other things to reveal about ourselves. when this habitpattern of reaction works freely and is fed, then there might be a feeling of martyrship, but can someone that is totaly balanced with everything, be it physical, mental... just watching it come and pass away be a martyr?

its all about how we interpret what comes our way, things that break the habitual interpretations seems to have the effect of making people interested. paranormal, stuff, golf... shooting a white ball? wow!

hi frank! jonas- not "someone", dont be shy[]
i went so far saing that avoiding people is running away. and i hmm... dont know... people that have come out of addictions to drugs, should avoid their old friends ofcaurse... at the same time i think that if be beleave we can control things we will be very cofused when we loose our arm in a treefallingaccident on our daily jogginground.

/jonas

[Gandalf]

Frank_
hmm, while I agree with you to a certain extent Frank, I think that we as a society should make an effort to improve things for everyone, just walking away is fine but ultimatly if the problem grows so large it will effect everyone (you have had to evacuate to the country for example), therefor it is in everyone's best interest to try to make things better here.

I agree that perhaps complicated standards of ethics and so on probably doesnt extend beyond the physical,
I think that beyond the physical it is all more straightforward ie 'towards unconditional love is 'good' and away from it is 'not so good'.

However, here in the physical it is a different matter, as we are the ones that are having to live here!
Therefor it is essential for human society to strive towards a better way of living, its ok for those outside of it to dismiss it, but try living here and then say so!

This way, human life will be greatly improved and the ELS (as Monroe puts it) will be greatly improved, at the moment the system is clogged up leading to all kinds of problems, certainly just leaving it is NOT the best answer.


btw when did you decide on your raw fruit diet? Is it all its cracked up to be? Interestingly, the Jesus of the 'Dead sea scrolls' prescribes just such a diet (this jesus is radically different from the one in the established bible btw!).

Concerning humans, I thought that it was established that we were officially omni-vores, that is designed to eat fruit & veg AND meat, whatever is available, to increase our chances of survival, therfore I would say we are designed to eat both.

Douglas

[halfphased]

Hrm, so many delicious fruits to choose from... where to begin...

Oh this term 'natural' is an interesting one.  Why is the current state of affairs any less natural than the state of affairs that existed X amount of years ago?  Clearly, we are a product of nature and as such anything that we do or create is naturally an extension of that.  Whether it be for good or ill that is something yet to see, as I can only place the now in the context of my own current limited experience.  

And yes I can say the previous and still think that the path through the void that humans have currently taken does not seem to be the best possible.  It seems that if we do not try in our own ways to help spread what we know that it will be lost to the future and their way will become even more difficult.  I am so emotianlly attached to this.  But why are my ideals the way thigs should be?  Why is my instinct more natural than the instinct of another's to go out and get money and destroy the world?  At the same time they destroy they create, but not in the way I want.  Maybe it will end when they finally have it all and realize that they are still not satisfied.  May we not have to wait that long, may we be spared.  Oh this is silly, but I'll post it anyways.  

kenneth, am I doing something wrong?  I tried to undestand with my body, but as I tried to do that it felt like my mind was screaming in agony!  it felt so heavy like my body was being suffocated...  what's up?  how can I understand something without my mind?  when thinking stops, how am I suppossed to put any meaning into these bodily sensations?  and wait a minute, how am I even aware of these sensations?!  is my mind still secretly at work?  It's like I'm throwing a wrench into the machine and it want to break apart, but at the same time it feels like something is trying to hold it together.  weird

[jilola]

A reply to the original post
(and for the record I didn't even read all the excellent replies. I'll get those later)

The problem is more a learned situation than it is a reality.
From the post I  gather that you have an idea that you and what you manifest as a physical entity are not the same. Yet you have the learned biad for thinking they are the same.

Licing in circumstances that cause one to feel uncomfortable can almost always be traced to defining oneself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of yourself. When a person starts to accept and defined himselfs based on outside influence a conflict necessarily arises. One ust cannot please everyone so who does one choose to please? Who and what defines WHO you are (as opposed to what you are?)
There are 6 billion other people and as many opinions of who you are and only one of you. Trying to live according to outside definitions will lead to frustration.

What is the solution?

Examine yourself and live true to what YOU feel and perceive to be the real and truhtfull you. If that entails leaving your job, the do it. If you can negotioate your job and what you choose to define as your Self then do that. Only always be truthful to yourself and always accept responsibility of what you decide.

(replies to the other posts may appear tomorrow)

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Frank]

As a society we are making an effort to improve things for everyone? Who is this "everyone" and what is truly improving? It sounds like you are determining improvement within the narrow boundaries of economic development to me.

Err, what do you mean "if" the problem grows so large it will affect everyone. The problem covers virtually the whole planet, and it IS already affecting everyone. Well, virtually everyone. The problem is there for all to see. It's right in front of everyone's faces and yet only a relative handful of people can actually see it. It's just so incredible.

Talking to you guys it's so obvious you are in microcosm to what I see in the world today. People are ego-driven to the point where they just don't see it anymore; lacking any real sense of compassion; totally insensitive to all the suffering; only ever seeing events in terms of impact to themselves; and so the pain and the suffering continues...

"Living in circumstances that cause one to feel uncomfortable can almost always be traced to defining oneself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of yourself." Am I the only one who thinks to say that is ludicrous? No disrespect meant to the poster, of course. But am I really the only one here who thinks this is nonsense?

I'm feeling uncomfortable living in the western world, and paying taxes to governments that manufacture arms and sell them to developing countries so they can kill each other more swiftly and efficiently; selling millions of land-mines, for example, so that armies can plant and forget them. So that children innocently playing, years later, can become maimed and/or killed from the subsequent explosions.

We're not talking armies fighting here in some place well out of the way. Millions of innocent native people are caught-up in these conflicts. We are talking about innocent women and children here, literally being blown to bits. And they could be said to be the "lucky" ones; because many of them lose limbs and subsequently the wherewithal to feed themselves and their family. So millions of these innocent people die a horrendous and slow and painful death every year from starvation. And while all this is going on, millions of people in the western world are living in relative luxury, just stuffing their faces with food to the point where an ever larger percentage of them are becoming obese.

When I think of the devastation and the destruction these weapons cause to people and animals and the environment, I find it so incredibly awful, so terribly upsetting. And that's before I've even thought about the destruction caused to the planet from all the pollution and the waste in arms manufacture. And then there are all the animals that are killed and maimed from the explosions, and who starve to death from having their habitats destroyed. Together with all the innocent creatures that are tortured in laboratories in the name of weapons research. The sheer levels of waste and suffering and destruction are just mind boggling!

Whoops, sorry guys, there I go again feeling "uncomfortable" because I'm "defining myself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of myself"

Gosh, it sounds like you all have a heck of a long way to go before you graduate from this system.

Yours,
Frank

PS
Please stop hitting me with all the Jesus stuff, it's ever so passé.
For the record I never said I was on a raw fruit diet.

[jilola]

No worries Frank. I figured readers would be less literal []
Also note that I said "almost always" as opposed to "always".

I do however stand behind the belief that change comes only from the individuals. A society is the sum of its members and cannot change unless the members take the personal initiative.

quote:Whoops, sorry guys, there I go again feeling "uncomfortable" because I'm "defining myself in terms of others, in terms of ideals and expectations that come from outside of myself"

Hmm it seems to me that you're intentionally misreading what I was saying?

My reply was specifically meant as a reply to the original post which clearly concerned itself with the probloems of an individual, not an oppressed people in Africa or a the general population living in horrendous social and economic conditions, in themiddle of wars even. With regard to those I agree that the individual in the circumstances isn't the cause of the sufferring and to claim they were would be an insult.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Jonas K strand]

goodday!

i personally believe in love though living in the system. yes i know that they take my money and that sweden is producing loads of wepons for destruktion of this nice planet and many people in this world.
the understanding of this mind/matterphenomena is important for me now-what is this shame for being involved in this system? what is this attraction to coffey, sugar, and te? how do i actually feel when eating three steaks in a row?

i believe that peace within is possible even though the outside circumstances are really bad, and i think that compassion is a frank-natural state of mind. call it jesuscrap or whatever... and no need to feel offended because what we write here is only things we... write.

frank, in one breath you talk about how you have always been looking upon others anger as their problem and your reaction as you problem and some posts later you seem to be so angry yourself because of what others here on the forum is writing. do we have some kind of reaction here? im not sure because people from france yell more at each other naturally (not franknaturally)