new CNN article talks about OBE

[Mobius]

G,day Dream Speak

Sounds like a slightly different spin on the same information as the washington post article in here, which is not surprising since CNN & Washington Post are owned by the same people.

The misfiring brain cells or some sort of electrical stimulation creating the OBE reminds me of Hemi Sync in a way. Although the Hemi- sync experience DOESN'T come about through directly stimulating the brain through electrodes.

When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?

Good journeys DS

Mobiushttp://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_8ball.gif" border=0>

[Adrian]

Greetings!

This seems to me to be yet another typical example of material world science trying to explain things in material world scientific terms. As I read it, it wasn't accepting that an OBE occured, but rather that it was a hallucination or illusion because that hypothesis is in keeping with their scientific training - i.e. - they were simply not looking at OBE's but faulty brain components.

I am not sure whether they are saying you have to be epileptic or brain damaged to have an OBE naturally - but that was the implication.

It also related to local etheric OBE's. I wonder how they would explain a full blown Astral experience - an overdose of general anaesthetic perhaps?

With best regards,

Adrian.

[DreamSpeak]

I understand what you're saying, and had similar thoughts.  However, I do think that it's good science is actually acknowledging that OBEs of some kind exist.  Perhaps science will explain the physical components of astral projection.

Scientists are starting to believe that other dimensions exist, which could be the astral dimensions etc.   Perhaps science will one day include things we today call paranormal, or spiritual, as our intellects grow.

DS

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.

That sentence alone made me roll my eyes and laugh.  It neevr ceases to amaze me what the scientific community will grasp at in order to explain the inexplainable.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Atlas]

Hi Mobius

>>When the information comes from these sources, I start to question, what are they trying to make us think?.........................something more in line with their investments?<<

And when this information comes from authors and institutes, what are they trying to make me think? Something in line with their books and $500 courses?

Atlas

[Atlas]

Jeff

>>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That sentence alone made me roll my eyes and laugh. It neevr ceases to amaze me what the scientific community will grasp at in order to explain the inexplainable.<<

Why is it unexplainable? Surely there IS an explanation for OBE. Trying to explain it in terms of brain reactions seems just as valid as explaining it through different dimensions and worlds and body doubles, as they're both on about the same footing proof-wise.

Atlas

[Blossom]

Maybe the scientists actually hit on something.

Maybe, when we meditate or have an OBE and have practiced for years trying to have an OBE, we are developing an area of our brain called "the angular gyrus in the right cortex".  It doesn't mean it's not real.  

Maybe that is the actual area of our physical brain that says.."okay, now the person is adequately prepared and deep enought in a meditative state to OBE", and then it happens.

I don't think this would invalidate the experience or make it less real...  Maybe keeping this part of our brain awake while our body sleeps is what causes a conscious OBE.  Who know?  

I bet though, the woman wishes she could do it without the need for the scientists probing her brain and adding stimilus to areas of it..  She said she wasn't afraid...  I bet the experience changed her world..  

And thinking she was going to have a seizure because of it,...that is just typical scientist talk...

Blossom

Just wanting to learn....

[Adrian]

Greetings Blossom!

I think it more likely that, in this particular person, the procedures being used triggered the projection reflex. I don't think it is anything to do with altered states of consciousness which are nothing to do with the organic brain.

What amuses me is the way scientists and doctors always try to rationalise these things in material science terms - anything but accept the reality.

It is the same with healing generally. Almost all medical conditions, however serious, originate in the subtle bodies, and can often be "seen" in the Aura and/or Chakra centres.  The throat Chakra is of particular interest. Modern medicine alas, being oblivious or dismissive of these things would much sonner pull out a scalpel of syringe, or throw drugs into people - it is all they know right now for the most part.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[James S]

I think there is something in both what Blossom and what Adrian has said. They have both made valid points.

It is easy for people like us who have come to know the workings of our astral body through metaphysical practices to dismiss scientific exploration into the same area using physical practices. But if we scoff at them for trying to explain away things using material science, doesn't that make us just as bad as they are?

Wouldn't scientists be surprised if they discovered that the "the angular gyrus in the right cortex" is actually capable of producing an EM waveform that engages a mechanism within the physical body that allows the astral body to separate.

Wouldn't psychics and metaphysical practitioners be surprised if in the process of researching parts of the human brain, scientists develop a device that allows the human astral body to be measured, analysed and quantified, to the point where they can not only see and measure the astral body, they can track its movement in and out of the physical world.  

Lets face it, are not the laws of physics part of the universal laws? Is it not possible that our energy bodies have to obey the same laws of physics just like other form of energy? Therefore once those laws are known, our energy bodies would be quantifiable.

The problem at the moment though is that researchers are making statements and forming conclusions on subjects like OBEs by comparing their observations to current empirical data using current methodologies and scientific philosophies. They're trying to perform microsurgery blindfolded using carving knives and knitting needles. Current scientific philosophies are unfortunately prone to excluding that which cannot be observed, measured and recorded.

It would be good though to be able to give these researches some form of encouragement, and see if they can't be persuaded to leave the rule book behind and look at something with true objectivity.

Taking the middle ground...
James.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I agree with James. There is no reason to be harse against science. You must realize that these are scientists and that they must go on scientific fact. So they have to start with what they know. They may well find a part of the brain associated with projecting. But sadly they will probably always see it as an illusion and not real. But being science I would have it no other way, because it needs proof to accept it. If it did not need proof it would no longer be science but a religion. I am not exactly sure how scientists could ever measure or see the astral body as I have never read anything on the physical being able to interact with the astral body. I mean people can go to the sun or be around nuclear explosions and not be effected.

This article is much better than the one in the Washington Post.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I wanted to add, I personally hope that science continues to believe that astral projection is just an illusion and can never find a way to interact with our astral bodies from the physical. Can you imagine what terrible things could happen with this in the hands of our corrupt politicians, leaders, and military?

[Adrian]

Greetings!

Well I would be the last to scoff at scientists as I use to be one - an organic and physical chemist before I was lured into the world of high-tech 20+ years ago.

But the reality of it is, I think, is that we at least remain open minded and learn from our experiences, as evidenced by our discussions here. We do not, or should not, accept anything that we do not know to be true. of course everyone's truth might be slighlty different, but nevertheless all a fundamantal part of the same truths - Spiritual Truths, commencing with the acceptance of the continuity of life as eternal Spirits after the death of the physical body.

I think this is one of the very biggest hurdles to overcome. If we can establish to humanity generally that we continue to exist after physical death, and that how we live out physical lives has a profound impact on what happens after physical death, then we can move forward.

Medicine is so busy trying to treat the material body, when in fact most dis-eases originate from the subtler bodies in one way or another, and also due to such things as an imbalance in the elements - not the elements recognised by science of course. Doctors accordingly go straight for pathological and neorolgical  causes for transcendent experiences, and cannot see beyond that in most cases. There are great exceptions of course, as with our neuro-surgeon brother Dr.T, currently with little Maoli who is receiving a fantastic combination of advanced medical and subtle body treatments.

On the CNN article we are discussing specifically - it seems to me that the doctors are refusing to accept the possibility of an OBE at all, trying to explain it away in medical terms.  Even here, despite some disagreement, we at least all accept the fact the petient is experiencing an OBE - how the OBE is triggered in the context of themedical  treatment is largely irrelevant and moot.

With kind regards,

Adrian.

[Mobius]

Hi all

Been away from this topic for a couple of days & looks like there was some interesting talk that eventuated from it, all good.

G,day Atlas, hey you don't know how similar I think to you, if it wasn't for me experiencing all these things like OBE's & such from a kid, I would have the same opinion. I love science & wouldn't be without it & look with keen interest at all the amazing things they do. As you have seen others like Adrian, Fallen angel & James are also either trained in science or a big science fan.

But it's the slavish one eyed approach they use & when they totally rule out that other possibilities exist which peeves people because they know that the people who deal out the money through grants etc want the scientists to operate under certain guidlines & are not allowed to think outside a square. I suspect many scientists wish they could operate inside the parameters of their occupation but also acknowledge that there is an outside of the parameters of which they are working in.

Btw, last time I checked, Robert bruce or the monroe institute & family aren't the majority shareholders in CNN , Washinton Post & New York times & I doubt they are wealthy enough to fund a scientific research program or build massive research labs, nor would they want to. It's true that Robert & many have a book on OBE's but they are a minority amongst the mainstream media or ar spiritual institution such as religions have.

I can't comment too much on TMI, as I havn't actually been there & don't fully understand what happens there or know why they charge so much for the courses at TMI. It does seem expensive, but from all accounts I've seen, about 80% to 90% seem to be very happy with their experience there. That's a pretty good average. Also if Major general Albert Stubblebine the INSCOM commander sent military personnel to TMI, including the much respected Joe McMoneagle, I figure it's worth a look. After going there many military personnel purchased all sorts of hemi sync tapes & some have constant contact with TMI since.

The issue of the price of the cd's is another thing alltogether. As a musician who writes, records, makes & markets my cd's, I know the risk or overcharging for something. If it's too high nobody will buy it,also if there is similar artists that also have cd's out, I have to be competitive with their price. If I have something that actually works but has a relatively small competitive field like hemi-sync, I can set my price to something much higher but something that the public will still feel it's too good NOT to buy (frank said something similar to this not long ago).

The problem I see with Hemi-sync as far as price goes is similar to computer & console games. When you price them so high, it tempts people to exploit the cd's through piracy & sell them to others as an inferior copy, but none the less CHEAPER. I doubt TMI has the money or resources to employ the staff required to police the piracy of Cd's. So something has to happen, before everyone rushes out to buy a copy & are then disappointed that it doesn't have the same content as the originals distributed by TMI. Btw, I'm not a hemi-sync dealer or have a vested interest in them.

Good journeys guys

Mobius

[josemi]

about obes research there is an institute dedicated to it the www.iipc.org   proyectiology and conscienciology institute, that gives courses to have obes but i think that 1 its a bussiness to get money from people and 2 its a kind of sect that worships the figure of the founder, a brazilian doctor

[michael]

I totally disagree with the last post..I am totally against Guruism and have attended many courses at the IIPC..they most certainly do NOT worship at the feet of Vieira..I wouldnt endorse any sort of cultic thing like that....perhaps the last poster can indicate how many courses attended??

[Daniel]

Josemi,

As a student of the  IAC http://www.iacworld.org (former IIPC) I would like to ask you josemi, have you done any IAC courses or read for example the treatise of OBE called Projectiology? If not, who are you to think such things as Conscientiology is for the money or that it's based on worship.
It's much more serious than that. La cosa és mucho más séria.
So I would advice you to  read from the IAC page for example the research projects of IAC before you manifest your prejudices here.

Regards,

Goldmundo

[Mobius]

Hi Michael & Goldmundo

Just a couple of questions I hope you guys can ask. I've been watching the IIPC website for a few years now, I like it, but as yet havn't got around to any of their courses as I'm preoccupied with a few others at present.

Q1) Do you guys know if IIPC is in anyway related to OBERF ? Not that I think it is good or bad if they are, it's just for my own personal reference.
http://www.oberf.org

Q2) Have any of you guys got the 1232 page projectiology book for sale through IIPC? I'm a bit of a book enthusiast & the book looks awesome. If you have the book, how did you get it? over the net? or get your bookstore to order it in? Or none of the above.

Q3) When you guys did your course through IIPC, was it an online one? or did you do a workshop? And what was the cost when you did it?

Good journeys all

Mobius

[josemi]

i recognize that i dont know the iipc in deepness. but ive expressed the impression it gave me once when i attended a conference of three people (coming from barcelona, at 350 km from my town) and i was the only person in the public. ive been receiving propaganda of the insititute and i have no interest on their courses because they offer you 6 courses i believe , of 90 dollars each one, and you have to do 4 of them to know how to project.
im sure that i can get the same information very much cheaper, for example with the books of bruce.
the institute has some facilities in the catarates of the iguazu i believe dedicated to the research of the obes.
i suppose that their activities will be interesting and that it will be a help for many people, but im sorry, it isnt for me. it seemed to me a bit sectary.

[josemi]

ill add another thing: when the representants of the iipc from barcelona came to zaragoza, i advised them the best places in the town to make their activities, because they asked me, and they unknew where to make their next conferences and courses. i treated them as kindly as i could. but their system doesnt convince me.

[Adrian]

Greetings!

I wouldn't comment on individual organisations, because everyone has the freewill both to make products and services available for money, and people to accept them on that basis.

I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.

Those that seek to offer a progressive series of courses, often which are mutually conditional would, in my view, have a very hard job to justify that.

Many would say that the money thus obtained is used in the production of further materials CDROM's, tapes etc... I had just such a situation recently in fact where I wanted to make some historically valuable recordings available in MP3 format for free download, sought the permission of the trustees, and was turned down flat in the basis it would be depriving them of income to make more tapes.

My point to them was that the Internet is the ultimate physical distribution medium, and by making the sound files freely available in MP3 format, potentially millions of people would benefit, and there are no production costs. They just would not have it though - they just could not free themselves from the materialism of money and tapes, despite restricting their products to a very small potential audience.

There is no doubt that the Spiritual progression of humanity can and should be absolutely free, and available to as many people as possible on a totally unrestricted basis by all those in a position to provide and share it, and are prepared to do so - and there are no shortage of such people thankfully.

I would suggest that before anyone spends a penny, cent etc. on commercially available products, they should ask the questions right here or similar information sources first, and the answers will be forthcoming.

With kind regards,

Adrian.

[Patty]

Hi,

I'm a scientist. PhD in genetics.

I read the article and don't see anywhere that it indicates that OBE is not a spiritual experience. It simply is able to say that there is a brain - chemistry or brain - firing thing going on.

Elsewhere, it has also been shown that transcendant experiences during deep meditation correlate with decreased blood flow to the frontal lobe/cortex (don't know the jargon). this is the area of the brain that normally regulates our sense of how our self relates spatially to our environment.  This might explain why transcendant experiences include elements of no environment, spacelessness, etc.

These advances in understanding most certainly do NOT say that the experiences do not have a spiritual component. I know that I am in part physical. I believe that my physicality is beautifully integrated with my other aspects, which are less 'measurable.'  Given this (hypothetical) integration, I would expect a physical aspect to any spiritual experience.

Did anyone follow that? It is rather in line with Blossom's post.

(Adrian, it seems there must be a story behind your change in career! I'd love to hear about it!  My personal course got re-charted after the death of our first child.)

Patty

[Mobius]

Hi Patty

I'm a human being, PHd in life, currently serving my aprrenticeship in OBE's.

Do you believe what we do for a living has an effect on being able to acheive OBE's? Not sure what you meant by your opening statement, but sounds like you are either offended by something said or feel that telling people your qualifications will add more weight to your words? Could be my mistake though, on how I interpreted what you said.

Personally, I love science, so much so that I am currently studying genetics myself, what a coincidence, hehe. Although I'm only in my 2nd year & seriously considering changing tack, I have really enjoyed it. I don't see why science & OBE's are so far apart on this topic, when some elements in quantum mechanics/physics & astro physics are accepted ahead of any proof besides a hypothesis. Yet the possibilty of their suggestions are not ruled out as ONE possible explanation.

Btw looks like we have another science fan that has entered astal pulse, welcome eukaryote, another person searching for the human equivalent of the big bang eh? Another Btw, have you guys read any of calos casteneda books or the book "the cosmic serpent" by Jeremy Narby? Investigating why cultures believed the serpent or snake was such a prominent & re-occuring theme in their beliefs.

The shamans in a tribe of the amazon stated that there where many tiny serpents inside us, in fact, inside many organisms (looks like the kundalini/medical symbol, the serpent also revered by aboriginies,asians & south americans). That communicated with each other, which matches up pretty well with what we know as DNA & RNA, (something that looks like 2 serpents intertwined, ). Which also happens to look very similar to the milky way.

Neither OBE specialists OR scientists have all the answers, but if they worked together, or pooled ideas/theories together, the picture might become clearer for ALL.

Good journeys Patty

Mobius

[clandestino]

hey Mobius, I think Patty has a great point - and it is good to see it backed up with her credentials....

The results of the nature study tell us that when a particular part of the brain is stimulated, an OBE might occur.

It does NOT tell us whether or not it was a spiritual experience, whether the mind is seperate from the brain, or whether the whole experience was internally generated.....these things are merely conjecture.

[Frank]

The major flaw that I see in their thinking, is the thrust of their approach. They always seem to come from the POV that obe's are not a "real" phenomena, i.e. they are just some kind of mind created illusion, and that is what they set out to prove. To my mind, that is a big mistake.

I explained in one of my very early posts about how, around 20 years ago, I came across the subject when I just happened to see Monroe's JOB in the window of a newly-opened New-Age bookstore in the vicinity of where I was living at the time. For some reason (and now, of course, I know the reason) I felt compelled to buy the book out of sheer curiosity. Which was strange because there's no way you'd ever find me in a shop like that (not even now) least of all buying some obe mumbo jumbo.

I read the book through a number of times. After which my sense of logic said to me this is complete nonsense; but my curiousity had been ignited to the extent where I thought, well, what if it isn't.

So I fought myself for a while and came to a conclusion. I thought, right, let's assume that everything written in this book, as amazing and as loony as it may seem, let's assume it is all real. So, I'll give these exercises a genuine try, over a reasonable period of time, and, if it is just a load of mystical mumbo-jumbo then nothing will happen.

Well, much to my surprise, I began to get projection symptoms and I never looked back. Which is why I feel that if these scientists would spend just one ounce of effort actually attempting obe for themselves, many of them would finally start to get an inkling of what people such as myself have been going on about all this time.

They are looking for proof alright, but they are looking in the wrong direction. They should be looking within themselves as opposed to looking without.

Yours,
Frank

[Patty]

Hi Mobius,

My opening comment was in response to the idea that 'scientists are going about this the wrong way,' or that 'scientists are trying to disprove OBE,' et cetera. "Scientists" are not a group separate from "OBE'ers."  I am reading some comments that sound like 'they' are wrong and I am trying to make the point that there is no 'they.'

I don't see scientists doing anything but seeking to understand that part of transcendant experience that can actually be measured.

Good regards,

Patty