new CNN article talks about OBE

[Gandalf]

This discusion is similar to the other one concerning the effects of Electro-Magnetic fields on the brain and how it induces the 'illusion' of paranormal experiences.
As I said in another post, scientists recently discovered that by exposing subjects to EM fields they were able to induce partial obes, feelings of presences etc.
The scientists of course went on to state that this explains all facets of paranormal experiences, however as usual they didnt stop to think that just because they have noted the physical effects of an experience that DOES NOT nececerialy lead one to conclude that it is the SOURCE of that experience.

I can see how EM fields can produce such effects as well.
It makes sense to me that the subtle bodies are kept in alignment with the physical most likely by using some kind of magnetic attraction, so of course being exposed to certain EM fields can lead to them being pulled 'out of alignment' to an extent, exposing the subject to low level astral experiences,
then the presences, partial obes and all the rest of it come in to play.
Subjects often state that the experience is quite frightning.
Their fears will certainly affect them due to the nature of the astral.

The basic problem here, as always is that scientists always try to explain things according to material knowns and this always skews their results.

Don't get me wrong, I like science and we wouldnt be here on this forum without it, we need it.

But scientsts should stick to what they're good at, explaning and researching aspects of the physical world, they should leave everything else alone!

Regards,
Douglas

[Mobius]

Hi Patty

Ahhh, ok, now I see where your coming from. It is true that many scientists believe that OBE's are a reality & some professionals such a lawyers, psychiatrists, doctors & scientists have written books concerning OBE's.

Everyone has their own beliefs & passions outside of their respective modes of employment, but rarely are these beliefs allowed to surface INSIDE the parameters of each of these professions, in fact the norm is to NOT to accept it & set about proving that point. How many colleagues, lecturers, doctors etc. have you mentioned OBE's to? & been taken seriously?

I guess saying "scientists" & "they" IS a generalisation & everyone is different. However anything regarded as spiritual such as OBE's remains mostly in the ten foot pole department as far as science goes, with very few scientists, doctors etc considering it a real possibility. Even if they DO, they are almost forced to conform to the ideology of their peers & predecessors. So they write papers with this in mind, so as not to step on any toes & to at least get someone to look at their study.

Science pretty much came about because people wanted another explanation for how things work besides the usual religous response of "It's Gods work" or "It's the work of the devil", which is great for determining the processes of something, but science seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater, going the long way around to finally find themselves back at the point where they should have been in the first place, trying to PROVE OBE's not DISPROVE them.

Why couldn't the scientists involved in this article try & corroborate the theory that that woman WAS out of her body, with experiments similar to what Charles T Tart & Dr Robert Morris did, when they said "ok, you believe you are having OBE's & leaving your body?, tell us what is in that room over there". Performing tests with ALL possibilities in mind, not just science based knowledge & assumptions. Even ask the patient if she saw anything that couldn't be seen from her bed, instead of following one set of assumptions, that somehow her epilepsy triggered it & so it must be some neurological anomaly, related to her epilepsy.

Here is an example of what I mean when I say that scientists/ doctors working AGAINST each other instead of with each other for the benefit of all.
After having a bad accident in which my spine was badly damaged, I thought to myself "I just want to find the best person for the job of fixing me". I went to Neurosurgeons & Orthopaedic surgeons trying to determine which method would be best for ME, as both could perform the operation I needed. When I told them I had asked another specialists opinion, they were fervent in their dismissal of the other proffesions abilities. ALL said, "Oh don't get a blah blah blah surgeon to do it, they wouldn't have a clue".

My point being, HOW can scientists/ doctors come around to acknowledging something completely outside of their field such as OBE's, when they don't even acknowledge the work & theories of others within the same disipline such as medicine or science of which they are part of?.......................money.

The ONLY article that was open minded  in it's language regarding the phenomena of OBE's was the article that density posted, the other articles had a fairly dismissive tone about them, that's how I perceived it anyway.

If science & doctors did something similar to what Frank said, stop & look within for a moment & try OBE's for themselves, maybe they would have a different perspective.

Clandestino, do we need to see everyones resume/CV/credentials to believe what they say? Or feel that more weight is added to those words simply by them stating their qualifications?I know I don't. If we were talking about genetics, then yes. I hope Jesus or Buddha doesn't reincarnate too soon, as the world we have created would mean that they are treated like the Dalai lama is at present by politicians & power mongers, with token jestures & lip service & not even that in many cases. Anyway, Patty cleared up that matter in regards to the position taken or viewpoint, all taken care of, thanks for that.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[Patty]

Hi Mobius,

Thank you for your response.

I don't know quite how to phrase what I want to say here.

Let me try it like this. When I was learning to write publishable scientific material, I was taken aback by the dry and brusque tone of what is generally published in many fields. "I don't want to write like THAT!" I thought. I"It sounds so, so, UNLIKEABLE!" My early manuscripts were much more conversational and 'touchy-feely' in tone. (they were not published.)

Over time I came to see that scientific writing is brusque - precisely because it is scientific writing. Science is meant to do exactly what Gandalf wishes it would do - measure the things that can be measured. Stick to the physical world. Et cetera. (And it would appear that at least some spiritual experiences have a physical component. I am all for understanding the physical component!)

Since science (and it's writing) sticks to data about the physical world, any sort of emotional, or spiritual, or non-scientific element in the paper would be completely innappropriate (I'm talking about studies - such as the ones brought to this board for discussion -  that are published in peer-reviewed journals, not popular science on the bookstand or internet sites, which have a different sort of value altogether. )  Everything in the journal has to be backable by data. Period. Rules of the game. That's the best way to allow other scientists to build upon that data.

And I would like to say again that I have not seen any papers dismiss outright the spiritual side of experiences. (I should look into the one you mentioned.)  If they don't address the spirituality aspect at all, it is because they can't. The absence of discussion about the spiritual side of OBE's (or whatever) should not be interpreted as meaning that scientists dismiss them. Even if the 'tone' sounds dismissive, that may well be interpretation on the part of the reader. The passage that Jeff quoted, for instance.

quote:
"Sometimes patients describe looking down on their own bodies, and that experience is actually an aura or a warning that a seizure is about to occur," said Dr. Cindy Kubu, a neuropsychologist at the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. She has worked with patients with epilepsy for more than a decade.

He interpreted as dismissive, while to me it sounded very 'believerish.'   In point of fact Dr. Kubu didn't say one way or the other whether she thought her patients were actually out of their bodies.

As a general rule, I don't tend to discuss my OBE's with friends or family or colleagues.  I discuss them anonymously on the internet, with lovely people like yourself! However, I do have several scientist friends who are quite into these ideas. And I just remembered that I DID mention a flying dream at a work party recently. I was testing the waters with some folks that I felt a resonance to.  They enjoyed hearing about the dream..... Ahhh, but these things take time.... perhaps at the next party they'll bring up the idea again .......

Warmly,

Patty

[Mobius]

G,day Patty

Thanks for the replies also. It has cleared a few things up for me & it is really hard for me also to put into words the whole picture I'm trying to convey. I guess what struck a raw nerve with me regarding that CNN article, was some of the choice of wording used by various journalists in putting together these articles. I know that journalists paraphrase particular reports & paraphrase each other so as to sound different/ original & not to plagiarise others work. I 'm just amazed though at the choice of language employed by these journalists in compiling their articles.

I find it interesting that the articles that came from the main media giants (well, the shareholders that OWN those media sources & have certain frameworks that journalists must work within, so as to conform with the owners wishes) sounded fairly dismissive of the spiritual/ OBE type experience, to me they did anyway.

I guess it was the choice of words like the heading :
"Misfiring brain behind bizarre sensation".........................to me, those choice of words set the reader up with a fairly negative view of OBE's or a dismissive one. Nothing in it is neutral & it attempts to appeal to the cringe side of spirituality & phenomena. "Misfiring", " brain", "behind", "bizarre" "sensation". Each word negative on it's own & together a masterpiece of negativity. As you said "you don't like to discuss OBE's with friends, family & colleagues". I have the same problem, although not in the family area as much.

One of the reasons I believe is our tendency to want to appeal to our peers as competent & not crazy etc etc. We all know the brain is the organ responsible for being crazy/ mistaken/ misdirected/ misinformed/ incompetent etc . So I feel this article is trying to appeal to that side of things with it's opening heading. As though it's somehow more comfortable for people to say "Misfiring brain" than it is to say astral projection or OBE's, as saying this would be treated the same way as when you & I go to mention OBE's & astral projection to friends, family & colleages.

We are so concerned as to what OTHERS think about our competancy & status of the mind, that the topics talked about on this site, tend to stay on these type of sites & occasionally make it into book form. When in fact EVERYONE wants to know what happens on the other side, after physical death & if OBE's are somehow related to this.

The article has a paragraph about 3/4 the way down that elaborates on the "misfiring brain" line of thought & goes on to say : "An OBE may be a slight disconnect or misfiring of the processing of information".

Once again appealing to the "oh gee, my brains misfiring, that's why I 'think' I'm having OBE's" side of things, so I'd better look to science & religion for the truth, as telling people OBE's are happening to you is ...............ah, uncomfortable to say the least.

Thanks for the input Patty, most appreciated, I just wish there were more people like yourself or anyone involved in science & medicine, to leave their beliefs at the office/ lab/wards when they finish their shift. It might be our employment for the time being, but our beliefs that are taught to us for employment purposes, don't need to come home with us. I just see so many friends & scientists etc that COULD open up a whole new world for themselves & us, if only they stopped to concede that there just might be some validity to OBE's & other phenomena that we talk about in here.

All the best patty, good journeys.

Mobius

[Mobius]

Just remembered a couple of other things I meant to say. IMHO I believe many scientists & doctors have thought to themselves what Frank mentioned in his last post, but never took it that step further like Frank did & said "ok, lets assume everything these OBE authors say is real". They don't realise that they can have BOTH as it looks like many in here do. Why not have the best of both worlds.

There is nothing to lose from having a go at OBE's in earnest & everything to gain if they DO achieve one.

Patty, I'm glad you say you don't write like the standard science journal method, it's just so lifeless to me & I for one would be interested in any thesis or hypothesis you might have regarding OBE's or genetics, definately, I don't care if it hasn't been published.

Btw I don't follow any religions. My interest in having people acknowledge OBE's comes from a purely experience based one. I would just love everybody to experience something that many in here believe is there.... the astral.

Ahhh, too many things to say, not enough time.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[Blossom]

So many bright and enthusiastic scientists are here trying to explore and understand that I feel nearly humbled. Humanity is on the verge of discovery again I feel, or at least that's how this thread makes me feel.  I would like to include some interesting reading that might correlate to the discussion in some ways.  But I want to say that if it wasn't for individuals like yourselves seeking and looking and trying to understand the un-understandable, mankind would not make near as much progress and be accepted as such meaning as FACTS.  I realize that evolution trudges forth anyway and will always do so , but the acceptance of every new thought on any given subject, ALWAYS comes from people like yourselves first, which gives credence to new ideas and and of which the general populations beliefs shortly follow as they change based on your [scientists] ideas and research .  It takes time, but we will go get there... Life is full of challenges to understand.  

The following insert sums it up for me in many ways..  

From: http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/books/findlay/etheric/contents.htm

"How many different worlds or places of habitation there may be depends on mind. Without mind there is nothing, and only when mind is present is there any realisation of matter, physical or etheric. It might therefore be logical to say that where mind is not, then there is no matter, that the universe therefore can be reduced to this one something, to which we give the name Mind; but can we conceive mind without something to act upon? We only appreciate mind when acting on matter, so mind and matter, though different - one the active, the other the passive - must be correlated. The name we give to the substance which makes up the universe, namely Matter, must therefore include these active and passive states; it must be dual in nature, as one without the other is impossible to imagine."

I have a question also.  Does anyone know if any study or research has been done which actually attempts to "weigh" ethric substance to determine is there is any sort of mass involved?  I realize that mass usually means a physical substance even if it is too small to see visually, but has any study been done in this area to determine this?

Jenn

Just wanting to learn....

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Blossom:
I have a question also.  Does anyone know if any study or research has been done which actually attempts to "weigh" ethric substance to determine is there is any sort of mass involved?  I realize that mass usually means a physical substance even if it is too small to see visually, but has any study been done in this area to determine this?

Jenn, there was some study done many years ago, where scientists measured the weight of a dying person.  They discovered that shortly after death, the person lost a small fraction of weight (2 1/4 ounces).  Some tried to attribute this to the weight of the etheric body, leaving the physical body at death.  Others attributed this tiny weight loss to the physical body relaxing as remaining oxygen is dispelled.

I did find an old thread talking about this online from alt.out-of-body.  You can check it out here:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Weight+of+Etheric+Body&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=MPG.16cb84b47ccf44b6989860%40news.lineone.net&rnum=8



Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Eukaryote]

I heard about this experiement before. Apparently it had been conducted in two or three different parts of the world and similar results had been measured.

[Atlas]

Adrian

>>I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be.<<

So Robert shouldn't charge for his books? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Atlas

[Mobius]

Hehe Atlas, you becoming your alter ego Axis & fishing for a bite? You evil, evil man, hehe ( I hope you know I'm joking).

Robert couldn't exactly afford to write books & set up an OBE site on the dole or by setting up a religion & therfore not have to pay tax to let the world know about a subject that is usually refered to religion or science for explanations.

I think from what I gather, Adrian means he doesn't like people creating monopolies, or filling their pockets well beyond overspill. I & probably Adrian too don't mind people sharing with other people their talents, it's when they get consumed by greed & use people for their own purpose, at someone elses expense. The topic of money & information is a huge topic on it's own & we both know each others opinion of it. It starts to get fairly philosophical when we talk about what sort of system would best benefit all people on this planet, so as to motivate & reward  work or services done & how best to make sure everyone is on an equal footing, taking into account such things as inherited wealth & aristocracies.

So I'll leave it there, maybe Adrian WILL answer that question, but when you are forced to live the unequel world of capatilism(e.g 3rd world counties & women), you have to do what you can to survive & at the same time, fullfill your passions & desires/aspirations without taking from those who don't have it in the first place.

Astral dynamics still remains my favourite book on OBE's, the only thing I didn't like about it was, there was no referencing in the chapters. It would have been good to reinforce some of Roberts own views/experiences/techniques by having some sort of referencing after each chapter or amongst the text, so the reader can quickly find the relevant passages in the books in the bibliography. I have most of the books listed in the bibliography, just would have been good to see the page numbers. As they say,you can please some people sometimes, but you can't please all the people all the time.

Apart from that, he describes many existing techniques & phenomena in a very sensible plain english terms, which are a little hard to understand in some of the early writers.

Good journeys all

Mobius

[Atlas]

Hi Mobius

Of course I think Robert, or anyone else, has every right to sell their goods and services. I own Astral Dynamics and I had no problem with paying for it. Nor do I think charging for it somehow "damages" a new-age/"spiritual" person's reputation, since I see absolutely nothing wrong with profit.

I'm not trying to bait anyone. I was just curious if Adrian applied that position uniformly. DOES he think Robert is wrong for charging for his book? No one in the new age realm has a 'monopoly' on anything so I doubt he was referring to it in that manner.

Atlas

[Daniel]

Adrian

quote: I would say though that I am fundamentally opposed to charging for any service that is for the benefit of mankind, its Spiritual evolution, the planet and all life thereon. OBE's Astral projection, altered states of consciousness, meditation to name but just a few, are all part of the Spiritual progression of humanity,and is the property of us all - or should be

Here's a thought for us all.
Could it be that we as multiexistencial beings are still attatched to the centuries old religious charity mentality that we used to praise for so loudly  in our past existences.

Regards,

Daniel

[DreamSpeak]

Let me know what you think of this...
it's publicity for OBE, as i see it.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/09/19/coolsc.outofbody/index.html

DS