Christian Magicians or Magick

[Statickitten]

I have struggled with my path for quite sometime. I would classify myself if I had to as a catholic witch. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't be christian and practice witchcraft. In my opinion, it all depends on where you feel your power comes from. I feel that God, Jesus, Mary, and the saints help me. When doing spells, use one of the entities that you believe in, in replace of the gods or goddesses you dont believe in. I stumbled across this one day while browsing the web. If you search the net, you will find a lot of information pertaining to christian witches.

Archangel Watchtowers

Hail Gabriel, Archangel of East and Air!
Archangel of Truth and Wisdom,
I call on you to guide me in the search for truth and
Following my inner voice and intuition.
Hail Gabriel, Blessed Be!

Hail, Michael, Archangel of South and Fire!
Archangel of Strength and Divine Warrior,
I call on your strength to fight and work
For the good of all.
Hail, Michael, Blessed Be!

Hail Raphael, Archangel of West and Water!
Divine Healer and Archangel of Healing,
I call on you to assist me
In healing others.
Hail, Raphael, Blessed Be!

Hail Uriel, Archangel of North and Earth!
Archangel of Divine Light and Mercy,
I call on you to
Bring me to greater understanding.
Hail Uriel, Blessed Be!

[You]

The only way the Christian Bibles tell you to call upon God is in prayer, and even then, you pray to Jesus, not to God. The days of giving animal sacrifices and making charms are done. You don't even need a cross. Someone please find for me the place in the Bible that tells people to carry around miniature versions of the roman death instruments that their Messiah was killed on...

[aryanknight666]

What's wrong with devil worship? some of teh most decent, loving, people I know are satanists. And no they don't sacrifice children, or have orgies.


Many Satanists do have orgies, because Satanism celebrates carnal desires and pleasures and does not deny the carnal, true nature of man but rather embraces it, celebrates it and indulges in it.
As for 'decent', whatever words like these are always from a judeao-christian perspective, in this case 'decent' entires someone who isn't proud, arrogant, who doesn't swear or get angry, etc, and this is untrue to Satanism. A Satanist has no problem swearing to express themselves, to verbally attack someone or vent anger or frustration, they certainly beleive in pride and thus are to an extent arrogant, and they do most certainly get angry and express and vent these emotions.

[SpectralDragon]

A few interesting things to think about here:

Firstly, there IS such a thing as christian mysticism, and there IS such a thing as Christian Magick. Just talk to the priest I live with he will tell you (matter of fact I might ask him to visit the site to confirm this from his own mouth)

now, that said, as evidence for christian magick: I present the catholic Exorcism *gasp*
That is one example of very old christian magick, the catholics just borrowed it from a very old and ancient christian mystic practice. Gnosticism has been around since, I believe, a little after paganism first started. It is but one example of christain mystics. Take these 2 sites for example:
1) http://www.gnosis.org/
2) http://www.gnosiscentral.com/

Very good portrayal of mysticism? I believe so at least. Magick? Yes, if you have gone down the rabbit hole enough to find it! You see, gnostics aren't the fire and brimstone christains people think of them as. this is pretty much how they go about thier study:

this has has been a wonderfull experience  for me, I am not sure if it will be the same for you but it's probably worth a try.

Now there are exceptions, but that is how most gnostics go about thier ways: open minded, skeptical, and very true to thier nature. I don't mean skeptical in the hardcore sense either, but true skepticism, which is clear cut possibilities without taking sides.

Many people on this site are scaring some very good individuals away who are christain, and open minded, and not the fire and brimstone type. To prove that not every christain is a fire and brimstone believer, I provide this site: http://www.tentmaker.org/

This should help those christains who wish to pursue mystic and magickal studies

-Jason

[laiana]

Thank you SD for posting those links - they're helpful for me in researching such things as how this may or may not fit into Christian teaching

[You]

I didn't say it didn't exist, I'm just saying Christian Magic doesn't make sense, since Christ doesn't approve of it, by his association with God.

I'm sure pacifist cannibals exist, but that doesn't mean they have to make sense to me.

[SpectralDragon]

since Christ doesn't approve of it, by his association with God.

Quite the contrary, evidence has been presented on several sites, including the sites provided above, that christ did, in fact, use magick. How else did he turn water to wine hmm?

laiana: it's no biggie, you might find some more interesting links here: http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10

Or even more intersting links in the links section of this site, or the tentmaker and gnostic sites.

[You]

He prayed. He's the son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. He's without sin. At the time he was the destined Saviour of humanity. Comparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all. There have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.

While it's supposedly plausible that all the Christian magicians out there are all on lifelong holy missions from god, performing miracles all along the way, I find it unlikely.

[SpectralDragon]

He prayed. He's the son of God, part of the Holy Trinity. He's without sin. At the time he was the destined Saviour of humanity. Comparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all. There have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.

While it's supposedly plausible that all the Christian magicians out there are all on lifelong holy missions from god, performing miracles all along the way, I find it unlikely.

Few key points here. The biggest being:

He prayed

This is magick my friend. It's the fundamental and most powerfull form of magick that a christain has at his or her disposal.

...part of the holy trinity

The holy trinity is a dogmatic belief based on purely nothing. That is why it is called the Trinity doctrine instead of simply The Trinity. There is little evidence in the bible that supports the Trinity doctrine directly (note the word directly....)

He's without sin

Prove it. Every man has his misgivings, nobody, not even the man jesus was fashioned after, is perfect. He had a lover, and the devil tried to tempt him. If he was truly without sin, the devil couldn't tempt him in the first place, it doesn't matter if he said "no" or not here.

Comparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all.

In what way?

The man is obviously more enlightened than I am, true, but when did I compare myself to him in the first place? (besides the last line )

There have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.

In my research, I find this to be wrong as well. These people are more than blessed by god: they have chosen the path they set on before god even had something to say to them directly. Take any christain hero: the stories of these individuals goodwill and helpfullness to his peers isn't limited purely to what god decreed him to do, they go above and beyond the call of duty!

Also, how do you define "god?" What is "god" to you? to me, he is the very universe I am living in: the master of himself and creator of himself.

Just a few things to think about

-Jason

[glacius*]

If there is a god I don't think it would mind if you did that.

[You]

Have to go volunteer, will post about this when I'm back.

[You]

He prayed

This is magick my friend. It's the fundamental and most powerfull form of magick that a christain has at his or her disposal.

No, it's not magicK, the term didn't exist back then and the Bible quite clearly makes a difference between speaking clearly and honestly to God, and channeling your emotions through rituals that you expect to get an effect from because of the way you're doing the ritual, and not how honest you are with god. Do you believe he somehow won't hear or pay attention or care if you don't do a bunch of willy nilly antics?

...part of the holy trinity

The holy trinity is a dogmatic belief based on purely nothing. That is why it is called the Trinity doctrine instead of simply The Trinity. There is little evidence in the bible that supports the Trinity doctrine directly (note the word directly....)

Whatever, this is all irrelevant to the argument, the point is Jesus is divine, that's what I was saying.

He's without sin

Prove it. Every man has his misgivings, nobody, not even the man jesus was fashioned after, is perfect. He had a lover, and the devil tried to tempt him. If he was truly without sin, the devil couldn't tempt him in the first place, it doesn't matter if he said "no" or not here.

The whole idea was that Jesus died on the cross, yet he had never sinned, and thus he could suffer for our sins. The same thing happens to Aslan in Narnia, read that or the Bible to understand it, I don't care. The Bible does say somewhere he was without sin, but I'm not about to go look it up. I can never find anything in there anymore, it's too big.

Comparing yourself to him in performing miracles at will really isn't fair at all.

In what way? The man is obviously more enlightened than I am, true, but when did I compare myself to him in the first place? (besides the last line )

By wanting to do miracles on his level, by consciously trying to evoke them, probably for unnecessary reasons that a little elbow grease would fix. Even Jesus knew when to be carpenter.

There have been miracle workers, but they are sent on missions by god, and only performed miracles during the appropriate times, then once they retire they don't do it anymore.

In my research, I find this to be wrong as well. These people are more than blessed by god: they have chosen the path they set on before god even had something to say to them directly. Take any christain hero: the stories of these individuals goodwill and helpfullness to his peers isn't limited purely to what god decreed him to do, they go above and beyond the call of duty!

Christian, not christain. As for helpfulness and good will, I'm all for that. Go do that. These people did NOT try casting 'Christian Magick', they were given the gifts and miracles for god for staying to a life of simplicity and hard work, trying to live well and not sin.

Also, how do you define "god?" What is "god" to you? to me, he is the very universe I am living in: the master of himself and creator of himself.

Good for you. How I define 'god' is irrelevant to this conversation. I might add though, that with the exception of 'god' I've never heard of anyone creating themselves. Improving yes, creating other things, yes, perhaps we'll create clones of ourselves, but you can't create yourself because you don't exist to create it.

[SpectralDragon]

One again, Tycoil, you are bringing dogma and your emotions into the otherwise constructive debate. It is useless to show my point of view to you when you do so, as you are not likely to listen and it only serves to anger you. This is my last attempt at a real debate with you.

No, it's not magicK, the term didn't exist back then and the Bible quite clearly makes a difference between speaking clearly and honestly to God, and channeling your emotions through rituals that you expect to get an effect from because of the way you're doing the ritual, and not how honest you are with god. Do you believe he somehow won't hear or pay attention or care if you don't do a bunch of willy nilly antics?

Magick was around long before christianity, as was paganism, satanism, and occultism. Historical records show that Pagan witchraft and practices predated Christianity and Jesus by quite a few millenium. Archeological digs have found what could possibly be occult tools in some of the oldest ruinds in africa.

Magick=a fundamental way of bringing about paranormal or unusual events.

Prayer=A way of asking for the divine for help.

They are one and the same, prayer is magick. It is a very powerfull and usefull magickal gift.

Whatever, this is all irrelevant to the argument, the point is Jesus is divine, that's what I was saying.

Quite the contrary, you were trying to use the trinity as if it were a proven fact to prove something else. This is flawed logic at best since the trinity is simply a doctrine.

About the jesus topic:

and thus he could suffer for his own sins.

Exactly my point.

By wanting to do miracles on his level, by consciously trying to evoke them, probably for unnecessary reasons that a little elbow grease would fix. Even Jesus knew when to be carpenter.

You are making assumptions about my character. When did I say I wanted to do miracles at his level? when did I provide evidence for this? What reasons did you see evidence for me doing something you are assuming I do without just reason?

I love using my abilities, true, but I also enjoy using my physical body and regular mind. Making the assumption I don't just doesn't bode well for you. I used to be a carpenter, Right now I work as a bus boy at a local restruant.

What wrong with seeking enlightenment anyway? is it a sin to try to do so?

It is apparent to me that you are attempting to strike a low blow to my ego with this statement: this is quite unneccisary, I am simply trying to have a debate, not a fight. A good clean debater need not try to do this.

Christian, not christain

Is this a final, desperate plea to try and make me look like I am not doing? Trying to correct my spelling mistake when you obviously know what I am talking about is a sign that you really think low of those around you and that you are not very fit for this debate. Proof of why I am ignoring you after this point.

How I define 'god' is irrelevant to this conversation.

Once again, not so. We are talking about Jesus, god, our veiwpoints on him. A misunderstanding between two beings is the cause of all evil, so before I assume you are christain I want to make sure.

[/quote] Obviously you mistook what I wrote, for refference, read it again: to me he is the very....

[You]

One again, Tycoil,

Tyciol, spell it right. It angers me more than any of your many other typos.

you are bringing dogma and your emotions into the otherwise constructive debate.

I'm bringing dogma into it definitely, as it's what the Christian faith is based around. Without it, there would be no knowledge of Christ, no knowledge of history, no knowledge of prayer or the methods used. As for emotion: everyone invests some emotion in things. I personally get emotional about people who don't know how to debate, as I'm quite proficient at it, having had much practise in the role-playing forums I frequent

It is useless to show my point of view to you when you do so, as you are not likely to listen and it only serves to anger you. This is my last attempt at a real debate with you.

It does anger me, but I am getting exceedingly better at ignoring my anger and trying to read arguments and the 50% of your post that isn't arguments, but rather complaints about me and other off-topic things. I feel hypocritical, as that's exactly what I'm doing now, and hopefully you will take the initiative and stop it, as I am too lost in the swirling vortex of contempt to stop until you do, perhaps because I didn't begin it. I look forward to your 'real debate', which I will refer back to regarding the things you say...

No, it's not magicK, the term didn't exist back then and the Bible quite clearly makes a difference between speaking clearly and honestly to God, and channeling your emotions through rituals that you expect to get an effect from because of the way you're doing the ritual, and not how honest you are with god. Do you believe he somehow won't hear or pay attention or care if you don't do a bunch of willy nilly antics?

Magick was around long before christianity, as was paganism, satanism, and occultism. Historical records show that Pagan witchraft and practices predated Christianity and Jesus by quite a few millenium. Archeological digs have found what could possibly be occult tools in some of the oldest ruinds in africa.

You missed the point. I said the 'term' magick, not magick. Pay attention.

Magick=a fundamental way of bringing about paranormal or unusual events. Prayer=A way of asking for the divine for help. They are one and the same, prayer is magick. It is a very powerfull and usefull magickal gift.

From an outside religious philosopher like myself, yes, praying is a form of magick. The Bible, however, differentiates it from all other forms of magick. Praying is seen as sacred, and the only proper way to commune with another being (God) and bring about supernatural events if his whims declare it, upon being impressed by your emotion, situation, and truthfulness. All other forms are not prayer, referred to as magic, or witchcraft, and thus wrong, and unholy.

Quite the contrary, you were trying to use the trinity as if it were a proven fact to prove something else. This is flawed logic at best since the trinity is simply a doctrine.

Not contrary at all. One doesn't need the Trinity to prove Jesus' divinity. I didn't think it necessary to mention the virgin birth, being the son of God, dying for man's sins and being his path to heaven from then on, facing Satan, all that stuff. Apparently I was wrong to assume you would think about it.

and thus he could suffer for his own sins.

Exactly my point.

'Real debate' eh? I meant 'our sins' and edited my post to reflect that. You knew it was implied.

You are making assumptions about my character. When did I say I wanted to do miracles at his level? when did I provide evidence for this? What reasons did you see evidence for me doing something you are assuming I do without just reason?

Magic is a shortcut. One who studies it as a life's work needs to get a life. Prayer should be all a Christian needs. Since god, is, as I'm told, omnipotent, if he chooses not to heed a prayer there must be a good reason for it, probably that he wants you to face it without his help. So why then, call upon Him with magic? Prayer should be all that is needed. Any more is to insult, or as I like to call it: sinsult.

I love using my abilities, true, but I also enjoy using my physical body and regular mind. Making the assumption I don't just doesn't bode well for you. I used to be a carpenter, Right now I work as a bus boy at a local restruant.

Good for you, but I was referring more to Christian Magi as a whole rather than you specifically. I can see too many of them relying on it, as an indulgence or an escape.

What wrong with seeking enlightenment anyway? is it a sin to try to do so?

That depends on what kind of enlightenment you mean. Did I bring this up or did you? I can't remember talking about it...

It is apparent to me that you are attempting to strike a low blow to my ego with this statement: this is quite unneccisary, I am simply trying to have a debate, not a fight. A good clean debater need not try to do this.

I'm normally a very good clean debater, but when angered I get nasty. My shots to your pride through previous posts and this one are my way of releasing that anger. I do suppress it enough to veil my insults cleanly beneath polite argument as to not cause a ruckus though The funny thing is: this statement you're referring to actually wasn't meant to be insulting, at least any more at all than my other chidings of your arguments by giving clear specific biblical references that contradict them.

Christian, not christain

Is this a final, desperate plea to try and make me look like I am not doing?

Yes. Suck it up.

Trying to correct my spelling mistake when you obviously know what I am talking about is a sign that you really think low of those around you

Only those that can't spell.

and that you are not very fit for this debate.

I didn't know one had to like everyone around them unconditionally to be suited to debate facts. Feel free to argue against my moralities and social problems, but they have nothing at all to do with arguing concepts and contradicting facts. Dismissing someone's arguments because you can't take the comments they make along with them is somewhat childish. While I may poke fun at my opponent's flaws, and am angered by their annoyances, I don't believe this hinders my ability to look at what they're saying and respond to it directly in a sensible manner. If I have done so, I apologize, please point out the instances, suggest an improvement, and I will keep that note with me for the next time, hopefully entering it into my debating methods.

Proof of why I am ignoring you after this point.

I suppose you mean post not point, as I see further replies below... but if you choose not to respond that's your perogative.

How I define 'god' is irrelevant to this conversation.

Once again, not so. We are talking about Jesus, god, our veiwpoints on him. A misunderstanding between two beings is the cause of all evil, so before I assume you are christain I want to make sure.

If it is so important to you, I will tell you I am NOT a Christian, but being raised one, with a family full of them, having read the bible, debated with many of them, and still going to church occasionally, I feel I am very well informed about them. If you want to prove my ignorance of this faith, do so by negating my arguments, not my affiliation, beliefs, 'enlightenment', or attitude. That is, if you do so choose to dignify my undignified self with a reply. Toodles!

[kerux]

I am a Christian and studied theology formally.  I am also have been a practicing magician for many years.  Any quick study of High Magic will show you that the Pioneers of groups like the Golden Dawn  many were Christians, all were theistic based.  

Celestial Magic is primarily practiced by Christians. Check out //the%20politics%20of%20nonbeing web site.  A study of the Qabalah shows it is based in Jewish mysticism which is part of the Judeo/Christian history.  Many of the great people of history where Christians and magicians, such as Sir Issac Newton or Lord Francis Bacon, etc. Saying you want to be a Christian witch is off the mark as modern witchcraft is primarily Wicca and is pagan based.  But being a Christian does not preclude you from studying magic. There are areas in magic that you should avoid, which is true of so many things, you have to seperate the wheat from the tares. So don't give up you are in good company.
Kerux

[You]

Are you also a fan of founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, James Madison, as well as perhaps Benjamin Franklin, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw and James Knox Polk?

[aryanknight666]

Are you also a fan of founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Thomas Paine, James Madison, as well as perhaps Benjamin Franklin, Oscar Wilde, George Bernard Shaw and James Knox Polk?

Funny you should mention benjamin franklin, the fellow was a satanist.

[You]

Yes, quite funny indeed I wonder why I would mention something like that... oh yeah... something to do with everyone thinking the US was founded as a Christian nation when so many founders thought it was ridiculous...

[kerux]

I don't know why you would say the founding fathers thought Christianity was ridiculous, that certainly was not true.  In our day we have little notion how Christianity permeated every aspect of the US society in the late 18th Century.  Any objective study of the era would show this.  However, there were a few that were what we would call Deists; such as Franklin and Jefferson, but they were both ranking members of the Illuminati  and you don't belong to that group without a profound belief in the Spirit world and God.  I can assure you that none of them were atheists, as atheism was very rare at that time frame.  With a few exceptions, of course, mostly among some of the European intellectuals.

Kerux

[SpectralDragon]

I don't know why you would say the founding fathers thought Christianity was ridiculous, that certainly was not true.  In our day we have little notion how Christianity permeated every aspect of the US society in the late 18th Century.  Any objective study of the era would show this.  However, there were a few that were what we would call Deists; such as Franklin and Jefferson, but they were both ranking members of the Illuminati  and you don't belong to that group without a profound belief in the Spirit world and God.  I can assure you that none of them were atheists, as atheism was very rare at that time frame.  With a few exceptions, of course, mostly among some of the European intellectuals.

Kerux

It's quite well known how christianity became an integral part of US society: just take a look at any history book. Before we revolutionized the individuals who came to america were mostly of branches of christian faiths trying to get away from the main brach.

[monicat777]

Oh no somebody said the big "C" word!! lol

As far as the original post..

If you get inspiration from the bible and you find meaning in Christianity, you can still do magick.

Find passages from the bible that you can relate to, for the particular situation you're in, and use that (or a similar version that you may write yourself) as your incantation.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Regardless of how many of us here happen to be a bit salty towards organized religion, I think we all can agree, that it's the feeling and passion that you put into the ritual, that's important.
If that's what you relate to, there is no reason not to use it.
-Monica

[kalratri]

I don't know why you would say the founding fathers thought Christianity was ridiculous, that certainly was not true.  In our day we have little notion how Christianity permeated every aspect of the US society in the late 18th Century.  Any objective study of the era would show this.  However, there were a few that were what we would call Deists; such as Franklin and Jefferson, but they were both ranking members of the Illuminati  and you don't belong to that group without a profound belief in the Spirit world and God.  I can assure you that none of them were atheists, as atheism was very rare at that time frame.  With a few exceptions, of course, mostly among some of the European intellectuals.

Kerux

The "founding fathers" of America were thinkers and revolutionaries, they have made some pro-Christian statements certainly for that is the religion they were born in, but they also made a whole number of anti_Christian statements and I believe these contradictions simply mean they were THINKERS who had the guts to question their long held beliefs in no uncertain terms:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/1777/fathers.html

and this is obviously an anti-Christian site:

http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/founding-fathers-xtianity.html

This is even a more interesting site for it states that REAL CHRISTIANS ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE REVOLUTIONS:

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Now this guy is obviously a "Son of the Mind" (Manu), an Aryan...not a "son of Adamah "clay...

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. MY OWN MIND IS MY OWN CHURCH."--Thomas Paine, _Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writings_of_Thomas_ Paine_, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

[kerux]

A thread regarding Magic and Christianity has somehow digressed into a debate regarding, first the validity of the historicity of a predominantly Christian presupposition and world view, at the time of the US founding, which is irrefutable and now perhaps what one would call a comparative religions debate.  I can only say that both topics which are outside the original question should be addressed in their own threads.  

Kerux

[You]

Don't complain when you're not contributing kerux, that's what many would call being a hyphenated word, the first part being 'smart'.

As for the other topics, we branch off only because the main topic has already been discussed, and we are looking at other aspects. It has to do with the idea that Christianity is logical and all encompassing, and how everyone believes it leads to success, when it doesn't always do that.

As for the nation being predominantly Christian when it was founded: of course it was. It was built by British pioneers, and the British were a Christian people. The founding fathers did not build it based upon Christianity though, and many had a negative viewpoint of it. The nation is build on democratic principles and freedom, which religion does not support.

[Cyrus]

Interesting post, although i have encountered few "Christian Wicca's/Magicans" even before. I wonder how do you differ magic from prayer? Do "Christian Magicans" agree that,

prayer - asking God for some favor accordance to God's will. I.e. accepting the answer even if the answer is not as expected by the worshipper.

magic - trying to influence supernational powers, or things by using certain techniques

Or how do you define those 2 things?

Also: are some teachings in Prosperity Theology (Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland, etc) kind of magic? Or are they purely based on auto-suggestion?

Final point: how much auto-suggestion is involved in magic? For example someone in this thread claimed to use names of 4 archangels to chant some stuff. What makes you think that this chanting is something more than pure auto-suggestion? Of course it can be asked about the simple prayer too. Overally there is very little difference between pure faith and auto-suggestion IMO.

Thanks!