Estimation of how many LIARS are here

[Nay]

Is Nay a Virgo?

Gee, you could ask me directly instead of acting like I'm not in the room.. and no I'm not.

Nay  

[mactombs]

You know how I feel about your fictional world thread, I felt it was........well, what THIS thread is about. It read like a story and....

This is definitely a dead horse, but to be fair, SpectralDragon did provide me with some tantalizing stuff the first time he checked out my fictional world. Before that, I said it myself that the whole thread read like fan fiction. And after that, the second attempt was completely off. It's too bad it ended there, and it doesn't really matter because he has his own forum now anyway.

But the point is, can't we all get along?

And more to topic, what is worse? Lying (or self-delusion) or gullibility? People need to be more responsible for their own critical thinking skills.

There will always be liars. That doesn't mean there always has to be people believing them.

[Nay]

You are right this is a dead horse, thus why I didn't respond to Jason's post, because it has been said over and over.. he sees it with his filters I see it with mine.

And he has a way of proving his points by saying..Cube said this, Mac said this..  He uses his friends to prove himself.  Isn't that a conflict of interest?

I totally disagree that he got any thing right with my story, but me saying that without having friends to pull out of my pocket weakens my argument, according to Jason.  

Now I sound like I'm talking about him like he isn't in the room!..LOL..sorry, don't mean to.  I'm sure y'all have had a conversation about this topic, perhaps more than one, so I know he will be reading this.

I will answer Jason directly when he said something to the effect of, how can you call me a great guy and a liar at the same time?  Very simple, because I can.  

My step-sister is a pathological liar and I still love her, infact I'm the only one in the family that helps her when she needs help.  Her own father has had enough of her lies and fantasies..they have caused much problems over the last 30yrs.  They don't call or go see her at all, and haven't in many years.  

Maybe that is why this touches and bothers me so much, because it reminds me so much of her lies and manipulations that I've dealt with over the years.  It is so similar that I can't help but react.  I know that is the wrong thing to do, but hey...I'm not perfect in any sense of the word,  infact you would be hard pressed to get me to say more positive things about myself than negative.

I think what bothers me the most is when Jason, you told me that YOU got things right, but how in the world can you know that, if it was MY story to start with?  You went off on some final fantasy story, when my story was a simple smut/romance/dream story?  Oh..wait, you did go on to explain that..  You said it was the characters thoughts that you were tuning into not my thoughts.. which just sounds like a bunch of nonsense to ME.  

I mean, that is clever don't you think?  You will always be right, because you can always say when you are told that you are wrong by the actual living people that wrote the stories, that you were dealing with the characters thoughts...made up characters by real people.  I DO believe that everything that has been thought, is out there floating around, but it needs the thoughts of the original thinker to continue.  If it becomes an individual thinker, then it is a entity at that point, and I do not think I have the power to create a life....I suppose you could have found my thoughts (but that is a looong stretch), and then continued playing out YOUR thoughts, but I don't believe my characters are out there living some life out..no..

I hope I'm getting my point across without offending you, but lets face it, you do get defensive quite easy, even when I'm not trying to tick you off but telling you why I feel you are not being truthful... perhaps I should stop saying you are not being truthful, but living in a fantasy world that you've created for yourself.  But when you try to convince others that it is real, well..that makes me uncomfortable..

Anyway...just felt the need to get that out.  Thanks.  

Nay

[SpectralDragon]

And he has a way of proving his points by saying..Cube said this, Mac said this..  He uses his friends to prove himself.  Isn't that a conflict of interest?
Nay

*sigh*

"All evil is created from a misunderstanding between two or more individuals."

They came of thier own accord, I told and chatted with no one about this except ender. I do not use friends to hide behind (unlike you, Nay, when you pull all your moderator friends to you in your defense. I am not saying that to be mean, it's simply what you did.) Mac and Cube are stating thier own personal opinions. Matter of fact, mactombs here is making points against both sides

It wasn't cube's opinion I was after in the post above, it was ROBERTS. You had said robert doesn't believe in fictional worlds. Well that's from the horses mouth so to speak. You know how he edits posts in the Question and Answers forum. Remember: my original point was to show robert has explored fictional worlds. It's not impossible, you only make it impossible by limiting yourself with this "I can't do this" thinking.

Speaking of fantasy worlds, I am not the one who is accusing people of things of what you, in fact, are worse for. I have a right to defend myself, just as you do and have done quiet often in the past.

The facts I got right were for one the object. You stated yourself you were thinking of using the object. Your words, not mine. I can't remember the details but it doesn't matter anyway.

I will answer Jason directly when he said something to the effect of, how can you call me a great guy and a liar at the same time? Very simple, because I can.

And make yourself foolish for not explaining yourself.

I mean, that is clever don't you think? You will always be right, because you can always say when you are told that you are wrong by the actual living people that wrote the stories, that you were dealing with the characters thoughts...made up characters by real people.

How can you say I claim to always be right when I openly admitted I was wrong in the second part of mactombs viewing? I understand you guys have a low opinion of me but god when you get so many facts wrong how can't you?

You think think these characters aren't real people: that's fine. Saying I am using that as an excuse and calling me a cult leader because of it is not. If you want a friendly debate over the finer points of what I believe to be true, that's fine. If you want to flame me over them, that's not.

Nay, I am not your sister, get over it. Really, I am not. If you continue to think I am then in your eyes I will be a liar no matter what. Look at the facts: I gave them to you above and you can double check some of them since apparently I am so much of a liar.

Another thing: apparently you think I get so worked up about this: I am quite calm, thank you. Don't use your empathy on me and claim to know what I am feeling here: it failed miserably in the past: it won't work now.

To sum this up:
Your opinion is fine and dandy nay: I don't mind if you think I am full of excrement, but please don't cause me trouble because of it. That's all I am really getting upset about here.

MT: calling someone a cult leader is, according to your very own policy you guys so love to point out, flaming. It's as bad as calling you several swear words and other nasty comments: it's meant to himilaite and make the character seem nasty. By definition, that's flaming. Feelings were hurt over it, and that's an understatement. I am not a cult leader: I do not burn people at the stake and I do not intentionally cause friction between groups of people.

What can't you post?
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum. Use descriptive subject lines & research your post.

Is calling someone a cult leader all of the above? Well, considering what is associated with the word, yes.

Mactombs:

e to topic, what is worse? Lying (or self-delusion) or gullibility? People need to be more responsible for their own critical thinking skills.

If you remember correctly I openly said "don't believe this till you do it yourself." There is a difference between critical thinking and downright flaming.


This was supposed to end at my last post. You guys decided to continue it. If you guys want to keep continueing it fine, we can dance. If not, well that would be better in my opinion. Enough feelings were hurt over this.

[Nay]

LOL..you just did exactly what I thought you would do.  You can say you are calm all you want, but that is not how it reads.

unlike you, Nay, when you pull all your moderator friends to you in your defense. I am not saying that to be mean, it's simply what you did.)

I did NO such thing, I never once asked anyone to speak for me and you may ask anyone of the other Mods, the fact that they commented was on their own accord, not because I used them.

I said that you claim to do stuff that Robert himself doesn't do, whatever that may be.  I mean, from the way you speak, you should be the one writing the books and teaching us how we can so easily acheive these things.  

When you talk about the object, are you talking about the Gem or something? I can't remember, but I know I didn't say I was thinking bout using it, it wasn't even in my mind..

And make yourself foolish for not explaining yourself.

LOL..I DID explain myself in the next paragraph, about my sister and of course I know you aren't her, I was trying to understand my behavior and why you always seemed to touch me in a negative way.  Do you understand what I mean now?  I wasn't dogging you in any way..once again you have some kind of filter on and you are seeing what you want to see, and that is me being mean to you and hating you.  Well you get over that, because I don't hate you nor am I trying to be mean..  I'm actually trying to understand MY BEHAVIOR!

You think think these characters aren't real people: that's fine. Saying I am using that as an excuse and calling me a cult leader because of it is not.

I never called you a cult leader, some one else did that, not me.  They used those words in their post, it was never, ever, written by me.

I would love to try what you have claimed, but it won't be the same for me, because it is YOUR reality not mine... thus why you can't go around telling people they will experience this, because they won't.  That is what I was trying to convey with the dangling of the carrot, that really never was there.

I really am trying to straighten this all out, but you just keep getting all defensive....I know, you don't see it, but you are.  So, ok..no more dancing.

*sigh*.....Nay

[sweetbliss]

I DO believe that everything that has been thought, is out there floating around, but it needs the thoughts of the original thinker to continue.  If it becomes an individual thinker, then it is a entity at that point, and I do not think I have the power to create a life....I suppose you could have found my thoughts (but that is a looong stretch), and then continued playing out YOUR thoughts, but I don't believe my characters are out there living some life out..no..

...the power to create a life? At least not at the level most of us are perceiving reality. But there are entities already hovering around, and they may interfere with these remaining thoughts, taking the identity of that character. And then we might think it's something we made up, but it's kind of a double way control. Anyway this does not imply freedom to create, it's not like being master of one's own dreams...

But there is a possibility of creating reality (far fetched, maybe, but as I understood this, I exists). And it is related to our mind being brought back to the perception of it's own source, to that spontaneous existence-consciousness.
The only example I remember now it that of the sage Wishvamitra, an Indian legendary saint, which also appears in "Ramayana". He has reached so deep in his meditation that he acquired this power of creating universes. He was gaining boons though penance and meditation, then he was using these boons for his evolution. But at one point he gets angry (out of too much meditation practice and penance, probably, and starts creating another universe, wanting to replace the old one, which was not satisfying his desires. Of course, the conflict has been solved. (Now, I suppose he hadn't got to that level of spontaneousness, he was gaining power, but it was still an outside source, as he was not entirely satisfied with it.)  
Yesterday I was looking for something on the net and I fond this comment: That in the battle between Rama and Ravana (I don't if you know this story of "Ramayana", anyway, Rama is the positive hero, considered by some a divine person, and Ravana is the demon), Wishvamitra could have, of course, have intervened, because he even had this power of creating universes, so obviously he could have killed a demon. Ravana was also disturbed him, too. But his duty was not to interfere. So he was providing help though his meditation and wisdom, but let Rama fight the demon. I'm not very sure I have understood this...  

About remaining thoughts, they can be... let's say neutralized or retired back into the source consciousness, which, form the perspective most of us have now, can be perceived as thoughtless awareness. Does it make sense? And the power though which this can be done is forgiveness. Not like letting go or tolerance, but forgiveness as kind of a basic 'magical' force, able to change universes/dimensions. This would be a form of recreating worlds. What I mean is: person A has a fight with person B and the tension is still lingering. Person C hears about this and, if C has this power of forgiving, he/she forgives what A or B has done to the other, and this work on the two and dissolve the conflict.
It happened to me, it worked by just telling to someone about some issues   I had for a while. I suppose this is also named 'to know how to listen'. I didn't know how it work, a assume it's also a way of interfering in other people's remaining thoughts and turning then to reality. Because reality bears no conflicts .
Has anyone have a similar experience?

About... non real experiences lol!
It happened to me to communicate or receive information, let's say from a guide, or from a self realized person. Sometimes this information is true (I mean it reflects reality, anyway the expressions of realized persons are always true), sometimes it is are misleading. And this switch point, though which this basically true information comes as such or is being distorted, is somewhere in my mind. So what would by the reason I sometimes accept it as such and sometimes I switch it all around? Because I do believe that we basically have the absolute freedom of perceiving reality and truth, nothing form outside really has the power to impose something on us (this is also an experience I had), rather the reason why we are not taking advantage if this ability we have resides somewhere on the level where we are taking our decisions.

So why am I turning this beautiful truth into lies? Is there a particular reason I cannot bear it? Or... Any suggestions?

Ana

[SpectralDragon]

As I said, I have the right to defend myself.

No argument there.

Can we now finally all start singing Kumbaya?

Edit:oh ****. I did it again. I messed up your post SD using edit instead of reply. Seriously. Got a copy somewhere?
MajorTom

(no problem MT, the back button is your friend. I hit it till I came to the post reply page and my text was all there )

LOL..you just did exactly what I thought you would do.  You can say you are calm all you want, but that is not how it reads.

unlike you, Nay, when you pull all your moderator friends to you in your defense. I am not saying that to be mean, it's simply what you did.)

I did NO such thing, I never once asked anyone to speak for me and you may ask anyone of the other Mods, the fact that they commented was on their own accord, not because I used them.

I said that you claim to do stuff that Robert himself doesn't do, whatever that may be.  I mean, from the way you speak, you should be the one writing the books and teaching us how we can so easily acheive these things.  

When you talk about the object, are you talking about the Gem or something? I can't remember, but I know I didn't say I was thinking bout using it, it wasn't even in my mind..

And make yourself foolish for not explaining yourself.

LOL..I DID explain myself in the next paragraph, about my sister and of course I know you aren't her, I was trying to understand my behavior and why you always seemed to touch me in a negative way.  Do you understand what I mean now?  I wasn't dogging you in any way..once again you have some kind of filter on and you are seeing what you want to see, and that is me being mean to you and hating you.  Well you get over that, because I don't hate you nor am I trying to be mean..  I'm actually trying to understand MY BEHAVIOR!

You think think these characters aren't real people: that's fine. Saying I am using that as an excuse and calling me a cult leader because of it is not.

I never called you a cult leader, some one else did that, not me.  They used those words in their post, it was never, ever, written by me.

I would love to try what you have claimed, but it won't be the same for me, because it is YOUR reality not mine... thus why you can't go around telling people they will experience this, because they won't.  That is what I was trying to convey with the dangling of the carrot, that really never was there.

I really am trying to straighten this all out, but you just keep getting all defensive....I know, you don't see it, but you are.  So, ok..no more dancing.

*sigh*.....Nay

To be fair, Nay, I see where you are coming from here. The original intent of the post was to state an opinion on how some of the more drastic seeming of the experiences are taken and handled here. There is not much that can be done about it: gargantuan sites like this will have some people who simply can't help but flame members for something that they can't believe. We all apoligized long ago for the things said and done regarding both the Fictional worlds thread and micheal thread, so I will leave the horse dead and simply go into friendly debate mode about this point:

I would love to try what you have claimed, but it won't be the same for me, because it is YOUR reality not mine... thus why you can't go around telling people they will experience this, because they won't.  That is what I was trying to convey with the dangling of the carrot, that really never was there.

Now, you are saying maybe I should write the books and such...well, 7 (going on 8 now actually) years of experience never beats 30 I can assure you. As I said, Robert HAS explored fictional worlds before as stated in the quote above. He comes right out and says it's possible. While I am writing a book on demons (not to replace roberts PPSD book I assure you: matter of fact it should go hand in hand with it.) I am nowhere near the level of experience robert is in the matter of astral projection. Sure, me and him might have a slight difference of opinion on some of the smaller details: that's to be expected.

While it is true that the experience is different for all people, I do not agree I am "dangling the carrot" as you say. I have, in fact, talked to people who were inspired by the thread and came back to me to tell me how they explored the fictional worlds of Marvel Comics, Dragon Ball Z, Breath of Fire, and many more besides. Everyone is unique, but at the same time it is possible for everyone to accomplish projection, and likewise it is possible for each individual to have the "same" experience, although in a different viewpoint.

MT: I came merrily to state my opinion. The posts after I did state my opinion are what caused this thread to inflame to what it now is. (Including my own later posts I might add: it takes 2 or more to argue.) So long as I am not called a cult leader again or something similair in nature no, i will not post anything that is more than an opinion or experience. As I said, I have the right to defend myself.

[Nostic]

I seem to have missed the big thread on fictional worlds, but really, I don't understand how it wouldn't be possible. It's all a part of collective consciousness, right? All of those thought-forms must exist on some level, somewhere.
Also, doesn't everything in the physical world have counterparts in "higher" dimensions? It seems natural to me that a fictional world experienced on higher levels would become dynamic enough that a real-time interaction would be possible.

Was the debate about weather these worlds exist? Or was it about the believability of one person accurately experiencing another persons individual fantasy world?
If we're talking about individual, personal fantasy worlds, I don't think it's likely that someone else could experience it exactly like how it was originally intended. We each have our own particular ways of experiencing and perceiving things.
If however, it's been written down or recorded in some manner, that would be different, because that's something you can look at more objectively.
If it's something that is part of popular culture, such a world must exist somewhere, and I'd assume you'd be able to experience it on a pretty objective level.

I've been a big fan of video games for about 2 decades now, and I would LOVE to enter some of the worlds expressed within them. Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, Resident Evil, even Super Mario. I fantasize about that kind of stuff. Once I'm able to leave my body at will, entering worlds such as those is one of the first things I'd like to investigate.

[Rob]

kkkckckckckcoockkk....ooOOooohhohuuuuugggggggg.........OOOoooOooAAAaagghghgque.....

oh dear, that got it - better out than in eh!!!

Anyway, sorry about that!!! Our friendly neighbourhood dead horse society is beginning to stink as much as the festering animal they are so intent upon beating. And the rest of us are getting hit by the splatter so!!
I would like to suggest that all those with a fascination in old rancid equines might continue their conversation in private.

PLEASE??

[Nay]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!  

Where ever did you find those???

And I thought we came to a good finish...but I like your finish better..lol..too funny..

Nay

[Rob]

Lol oh yes my apologies, you do some to have come to something of a halt already. I was at best skim reading the last few posts of the "debate" so meh, must've missed! Oh well it was fun posting anyway  

Weeeeeell those horses are rare, and expensive - gotta get em fast before the french eat em up!!!! (yum hehehe)

Actually I just googled for em

Rob

PS Rastus - interesting reply - I do hope you weren't thinking my post was aimed at you in any personal way were you??? Wasn't!! Just thought it was an interesting area for discussion. Yeah, I've annoyed people too, here and elsewhere, though I dont regret all those instances. They all taught me something goooood.

[Rastus]

Not at all.  I try not to pass up an opportunity to pass along a little wisdom here and there.  It's the readers and lurkers I'm usually writing to anyway, not the Respondee  

{Insert Dead Horse GIF Here}

[Nostic]

kkkckckckckcoockkk....ooOOooohhohuuuuugggggggg.........OOOoooOooAAAaagghghgque.....

oh dear, that got it - better out than in eh!!!

Anyway, sorry about that!!! Our friendly neighbourhood dead horse society is beginning to stink as much as the festering animal they are so intent upon beating. And the rest of us are getting hit by the splatter so!!
I would like to suggest that all those with a fascination in old rancid equines might continue their conversation in private.

PLEASE??

If it's dead for you, why don't you divert your attention elsewhere?
I was never involved in the conversation, so, excuse me for just being a little curious.

[SpectralDragon]

kkkckckckckcoockkk....ooOOooohhohuuuuugggggggg.........OOOoooOooAAAaagghghgque.....

oh dear, that got it - better out than in eh!!!

Anyway, sorry about that!!! Our friendly neighbourhood dead horse society is beginning to stink as much as the festering animal they are so intent upon beating. And the rest of us are getting hit by the splatter so!!
I would like to suggest that all those with a fascination in old rancid equines might continue their conversation in private.

PLEASE??

If it's dead for you, why don't you divert your attention elsewhere?
I was never involved in the conversation, so, excuse me for just being a little curious.

He was talking to me.

[Telos]

Exploring fictional worlds... isn't that kind of like... exploring lies?

[SpectralDragon]

Exploring fictional worlds... isn't that kind of like... exploring lies?

How so?

[Telos]

How so?

Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?

[Nostic]

How so?

Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?

But a lie involves deceit. Using the phrase "fictional world" is just a human way of saying something. To our everyday waking consciousness, it's fiction. It's what we may normally think of as fiction. But it's part of consciousness, and therefore must have some sort of reality.
But even if you do call it a lie, who cares, as long as you can experience and enjoy it, what does it matter. Just like you can call a novel or a movie a lie, and still enjoy it.

[Chimerae]

Sometime around 1991 - 1993 I inadvertently got involved in exploring fictional worlds.

My partners in this were people with a high level of reliability -- among the ten or so of us, I was one of the least reliable -- one of the two loose cannons.  

We didn't stumble into it with the intention of exploring fictional worlds.  I was trying to make a career change into fiction writing while I was involved with a group of natural psychics, a percentage of whom were highly skilled witches out of differing traditons.  All the individuals involved were actively engaged in astral travel -- except me.    

I was astonished -- and a little bit creeped out -- to hear "my" undisclosed novel characters and environment described in out of body experiences by other people.  I was not at that time talking about my writing.

When I finally spoke up and opened it up to discussion, I concluded that my "fiction" was a personal translation of something going on astrally.  At the time I was deeply engaged in personal issues of truthfulness, so I set aside my novel to explore astral travel with the rest of the group and engaged in overlapping "fictional worlds" -- my idea being that each of us was simply translating a shared experience in different ways.

The whole experience totally creeped me out.  The more intentional the experience, and the greater the effort for "truth" the more distortion I saw.  It was almost as if the more focus we all gave it, the more our unexpressed unconscious expectations/needs/desires structured the mutal parameters.  The more the "group" came into agreement about what was real, the farther I felt we all were from the true experience.

Did I mention that I was a loose cannon?

I found (as the only "experienced" novelist) that if I focused I could "bend" the group experience so that it was closer to my reality set.  It wasn't that my reality was any more valid -- it was just better organized because of my sense of poetic license and plot.  With that more solid organization, the whole group could retain more details -- but it always seemed to be tainted by the hidden preconceptions.

I HATED the experience and when I realized that I didn't have the capacity to attain mastery and achieve a higher level of truth, I bailed out on the whole thing.

As far as "lies" -- what I saw was a lack of capacity to deal with constantly manupulating the communication stream -- it was nearly impossible for us to find any reliable baseline.  I think the problem was geometrically accumulating mistranslations that got completely out of hand.

As long as it's viewed as "fiction" the unconscious mind can extract what's relevant.  There's something that happened when we intentionally moved into the "real" category that bent everything completly out of proportion.

I THINK someone with a strong Jungian background could explain this as simple and natural.  

Not me.

I'm impressed with Spectral Dragon's capacity to just hang in here against all odds and just "say what he sees"

Regards to all,

Christina

[Nostic]

Sometime around 1991 - 1993 I inadvertently got involved in exploring fictional worlds.

My partners in this were people with a high level of reliability -- among the ten or so of us, I was one of the least reliable -- one of the two loose cannons.  

We didn't stumble into it with the intention of exploring fictional worlds.  I was trying to make a career change into fiction writing while I was involved with a group of natural psychics, a percentage of whom were highly skilled witches out of differing traditons.  All the individuals involved were actively engaged in astral travel -- except me.    

I was astonished -- and a little bit creeped out -- to hear "my" undisclosed novel characters and environment described in out of body experiences by other people.  I was not at that time talking about my writing.

When I finally spoke up and opened it up to discussion, I concluded that my "fiction" was a personal translation of something going on astrally.  At the time I was deeply engaged in personal issues of truthfulness, so I set aside my novel to explore astral travel with the rest of the group and engaged in overlapping "fictional worlds" -- my idea being that each of us was simply translating a shared experience in different ways.

The whole experience totally creeped me out.  The more intentional the experience, and the greater the effort for "truth" the more distortion I saw.  It was almost as if the more focus we all gave it, the more our unexpressed unconscious expectations/needs/desires structured the mutal parameters.  The more the "group" came into agreement about what was real, the farther I felt we all were from the true experience.

Did I mention that I was a loose cannon?

I found (as the only "experienced" novelist) that if I focused I could "bend" the group experience so that it was closer to my reality set.  It wasn't that my reality was any more valid -- it was just better organized because of my sense of poetic license and plot.  With that more solid organization, the whole group could retain more details -- but it always seemed to be tainted by the hidden preconceptions.

I HATED the experience and when I realized that I didn't have the capacity to attain mastery and achieve a higher level of truth, I bailed out on the whole thing.

As far as "lies" -- what I saw was a lack of capacity to deal with constantly manupulating the communication stream -- it was nearly impossible for us to find any reliable baseline.  I think the problem was geometrically accumulating mistranslations that got completely out of hand.

As long as it's viewed as "fiction" the unconscious mind can extract what's relevant.  There's something that happened when we intentionally moved into the "real" category that bent everything completly out of proportion.

I THINK someone with a strong Jungian background could explain this as simple and natural.  

Not me.

I'm impressed with Spectral Dragon's capacity to just hang in here against all odds and just "say what he sees"

Regards to all,

Christina

Very interesting story. Thanks 4 sharing. Are you saying that your group just took the experience way too seriously?
I would just look at it as a fun little fantasy romp- akin to a virtual reality video game. I think I've already experienced such games, but I've never been as conscious as I'd like to be during the experience.

[Chimerae]

Laughing . . . oh yeah . . . we took it WAY too serious!

[sweetbliss]

I was astonished -- and a little bit creeped out -- to hear "my" undisclosed novel characters and environment described in out of body experiences by other people.  I was not at that time talking about my writing.

Wow! Pretty difficult to deal with the copy right, isn't it?      

Though the experience of the collective consciousness can much satisfaction, when managed in the good way! Basically everything what we do is a collective happening, and sometimes living this has the healing effect of getting rid of ego   ... But obviously this was not a inspiring experience.

Illusion does not necessary imply lies. It can be simply a way to the understanding of inexpressible reality aspects. When we say "mysterious are God's way" we do not assume that God is attracting us in some sort of lies, but on the contrary, that he is creating a wondrous path to revelation, that he is creating a play for us to watch and to act in, on his side, and finally become one.  

Truth is one, but manifests having many facets. I suppose it's a truism, but we meditate sometime on such truisms.

I found (as the only "experienced" novelist) that if I focused I could "bend" the group experience so that it was closer to my reality set.  It wasn't that my reality was any more valid -- it was just better organized because of my sense of poetic license and plot.

As long as it's viewed as "fiction" the unconscious mind can extract what's relevant.  There's something that happened when we intentionally moved into the "real" category that bent everything completly out of proportion.

I don't know very much about Jung, what I can relate this to, is the influence Jung had on a German writer, Hermann Hesse (he wrote 'Steppenwolf' and 'The Glass Bead Game'). Jung considered that most of the western authors had fallen on the trap of their Anima archetype, because of not being able to integrate it, and this caused their works to distort reality and be fruitless fantasies. (He even assumes this about Goethe!) So there is an artistic value, but a weak connection to reality.
What Hesse tried to do (both because of his inter reaction with Jung's therapy as a patient and because he was sick of learning about the distinction between a correct perception of reality and artistic creation) was to work on himself and integrate these archetypes and express them as literature only up to the point he had reached in his analysis. (As well as an analyst doctor will not be allowed to treat patients but up to the level he himself has successfully integrated.) Because Hesse sincerely followed this rule he imposed upon himself, he mastered his fantasies and illusion and turned them into inspiring art.
Goethe expressed his despair and suicidal tendencies in 'Werther', which cured him, but this book caused a series of suicide at that time (any teacher of German will accept this as a fact   ), Hesse turned his depressions into elevating and curing art, because he did not let  unfinished the confrontation with the unconscious.

At least for me, this 'Glass Bead Game' worked like a magic writing and made me look deep into myself and balanced me very much.

[Josephine]

Everything I say is a lie....except that...and that....and that. and that....and that...................and that.

Well I've never posted on here, so I can't say that I've lied....yet

Josephine

[SpectralDragon]

How so?

Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?

Thinking of it that way yes I can see where you are coming from. You would have to read fictional worlds topic to see why we are saying "it is real," ect.

Here it is, it might read like fanfic at first though.

http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15&start=0

[Telos]

How so?

Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?

Thinking of it that way yes I can see where you are coming from. You would have to read fictional worlds topic to see why we are saying "it is real," ect.

Here it is, it might read like fanfic at first though.

http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15&start=0

SD, didn't you make that post a few days ago?