AP: is it natural?

[Kazbadan]

I read somewhere that the sounds (chains, screamings, etc) that you hear when you are living out the body are minor demons or bad beings. In that site, the one that has said that it is an experienced astral projector. He said that you need to learn conjurations in order to "say goodbye" to such beings.

In astralpulse forums most of the people says somethings different: such sounds are just creations from our imagination. They are creaedt in our subcounscious and they represent our fears and negative parts from our being. They are very real because in astral thoughts are very real (the materialise).

Well, in my first astral projection i started to hear such sound and they were very intense and more scaring than i could imagine. I even saw a strange light and a dark character i think (dont remember well).

Who do you think that it is correct? The guy that i said before that thinks that such sounds are bad beings, or the people that says that the sounds are just our negative thoughts?

If the second theorie it is truth, why do we see only the bad thoughts, instead of good thoughts (like niiiice girls or beautiful places)? This makes me think that maybe the first theorie (bad beings) it is the most correct... i dont know.

In second place, if astral projection it is a natural things for human beings _(as many people says), why would we only see bad things in our first projections? Natural things in general are good things (at leats they are not bad): eating, making sex, pee, breathing, etc are natural things and they are "normal" and not bad. Why is AP different? If it is so natural why is that only a few knows how to astral project?

I would like to hear you opinions about this thoughts.


thanks

[Leannain]

suicide,murderer,etc are also 'natural' of the human race and these are bad things

[Kazbadan]

You are right, but why is that when we try to AP for the first time, we only see and/or hear bad things?

[Adun]

Because you read you will.

[Nay]

I believe Robert Bruce said it well in his book Astral Dynamics so I will quote him straight from his book.

Astral noises may be heard during the exit, with scary voices and things going bump in the night,
like chains dragging, sinister giggling and muttering, evil laughter, and nasty growling and snarling.
These intimidating sounds are a type of audio illusion; they have no substance and are therefore no threat.
They are a big distraction, though, and must be totally ignored before and during the exit. Astral noises are quite common during the exit, but always cease the moment the exit is complete. It is much more common for new projectors to hear astral noises and voices than for more seasoned projectors. I [Robert} rarely hear them these days, but used to hear them regularly during my early years of conscious projection, about every fifth projection.


Two Possible Causes for Astral Noises

Accidental: It is possible that natural sounds and voices are picked up by the heightened senses of the projecting double, as it tunes into parts of the local real-time or astral environment during the prelude to the exit. The random nature of these noises suggests they may only be heard when there is activity in the local real -time or astral area to cause them. The state of your energy body, specifically your active configuration of primary centers at the time of projection, may also play a part. It is possible that some projectors sporadically develop a type of clairaudience, the ability to hear into the real-time zone and astral dimension and to hear spirit voices and sounds, as well as the voices of other projectors. Where simple astral noises and voices are heard, and the projector is neither directly nor indirectly referred to, this is the most likely scenario.
Deliberate: Another possibility is that some astral noises are deliberately produced and telepathically aimed at projectors by low-order astral wildlife. These noises appear to be a very cleverly designed audio illusion, a sneaky distsraction designed to worry or trick a projector into aborting an imminent exit. This trickery and deceit is well in theme with the whole apparent purpose of elemental and dweller-type manifestations.

If this is indeed the real source of astral noises, then they are simply an audio scare alternative to the more visual dweller-type manifestations. Where the projector is addressed or called by name, or indirectly referred to in any other way, this is the most likely scenario.

Dealing with Astral Noises

Any and all astral noises must be totally ignored during the exit stage of an OBE. these harmless sound effects will distract and disrupt your balance and keep you from projecting if you pay any attention to them. This is especially so when it comes to being pestered or called by soeone inside your own house. No matter what you hear and no matter what is said, totally ignore it!

Hope this helps,

Nay

[Leannain]

well Kazbadan:
i can't answer that,i've never had the pleasure of doing an AP
Nay seemed to answered it quite well

[Kazbadan]

Good point Nay. Thanks for it.

Now that you speak on it, i am wondering: maybe we only hear bad things because in the astral plane, in RTZ, the most common form of wildlife its bad spirits. This bad spirits are tunned to lower astral planes (maybe RTZ it is a lower plane) its for that reason that we only find this spirits. The "bigger" ones, the "good guys" are in higher planes.

Maybe it is just that.

If the noises and visions are spiritis, that means that they are always chasing us (almost every AP, people will find them...). Why the hell do they do that?

If they are spirits, why ignoring them its a good idea? Couldnt be possible that can make us bad things (not only scaring)?

Even having this concernings, i must thanks to you again Nay.

BTw, Nay, your new avatar its very nice and funny!

[Telos]

Robert Bruce regards these noises as completely superfluous and something to be ignored. Ironically, I also think his explanation is completely superfluous and something to be ignored.

These noises are real manifestations of conflict in your imagination, as evidenced by the fact that they're in your imagination in the first place.

I don't mean this in the Freudian sense, that you have issues with your subconscious that you don't know about but must face through grueling sessions of therapy. Not at all. But if you hear them, it means that you are not equipping yourself with the appropriate faculties to pass into this state of mind smoothly. Namely confidence and comfort - a confident feeling of comfort, and a comfortable feeling of confidence.

For years, when I was trying to WILD as a teenager, I would start to hear "echos" of screaming/shouting arguments that my family would have. Upon review, it was likely that the arguments as I heard them never happened, however the intonation and intensity were unmistakable. I did not harbor any fear or animosity towards my family, so I was sure that this was not the creation of some emotional trauma. Rather, I attributed it to a passively relaxed, unfocused mind settling on "loud imagery." When you are not awake and focused on a particular reality, you are complacent and fall into entropy, recalling visions that you have otherwise trained yourself to handle in a normal situation.

When I moved to a college apartment and tried to WILD, I heard similar shouting and fighting noises, but not from my family. Instead, they appeared to be from people who had lived in the apartment building. The sound of doors slamming was also common. When I moved back home, I was even more confident that these were not the products of negs, as evidence by my family members' appearance, and were not the product of emotional trauma, as evidence by the appearance of random apartment tenants. With a confident feeling of comfort, and comfortable feeling of confidence, combined with other things like curiosity and focus, I pulled a WILD off without a hitch. No voices or noises.

I was able to do it one more time, but regaining that feeling is easier said than done. This world has a tendency of persuading you to not be confident or comfortable, much less both, or complimentarily both. There are also possibly necessary aspects of the WILD that I do not quite remember.

Handling this problem requires awareness and attention - not ignorance.

[Nay]

Robert Bruce regards these noises as completely superfluous and something to be ignored. Ironically, I also think his explanation is completely superfluous and something to be ignored.

I'm going to be very honest here, heck when am I not?   But I've noticed a new fad lately, and that is Robert bashing and frankly, I'm finding it hard to hold my tongue so, I won't.  And forgive me if I sound a bit angry, but I am.

I don't agree with Robert on every little thing, but I certaintly give credit where credit is more than due. The quotes I just gave are, I found to be quite true!  

Forgive me again, but I feel some are getting a bit too big for their britches and are...ummmmmmm..dang, how do I say this?  

OK...Telos, you say that Robert's advice should be totally ignored and then you give your advise that should be taken as gospel......why?  And can I ask if you visit someones house, to you tell them that their house is sucky and then tell them what they should do to make it right, or do you have manners and go about it another way?

I found that when I heard voices or just down right creepy noises, if I did ignore them, most of time they vanished and the ones that didn't, I got so distracted or scared I would never truly make it out.  And guess what I realized after being totally awake and back in my physical?  I found the TRUE source to the noises.  Once it was my cats down stairs running around like crazy..hehe  The sound was soooooo ampliflied while exiting that it sounded like a huge monster.  Heck, another time it was my own SNORING!!

I'm not saying you have to take every thing Robert says to heart, hell.. I you don't have to believe ANY of it.  But how about some respect, is that really too much to ask for someone whom has given much of his time to help others???

Plus, it really hurts me, thus turning it into anger... and I hate feeling like yelling at you..

If you feel you have learned everything you have from this site, please feel free to move on but don't ruin it for the rest of us...because I'm soooo not done learning from others.

Personal note to you from me... I was surprised by your post, did you have a bad day?

Nay

[Nay]

Hi Kaz!

Why the hell do they do that?

I think it is to stop you from projecting..plain and simple.  but that is my plain and simple way of looking at it and it works for me.

Even having this concernings, i must thanks to you again Nay

You are very welcome!  I know that I've been labeled a fuzzy bunny thinker but holy moses, it works for me.   Maybe I'm naive or perhaps I've gotten over the whole "scare me to death" adrenaline rush that seems to be prevalant when younger.  Come on, I know y'all have done it....turned off the lights to tell scary stories with your friends, go to a grave yard at night.. or how bout that abandon house that is in almost every neighborhood.....  

I can't make anyone feel the fuzzy bunny....oooo, that sounded bad..lol..  I mean, I can't put that safe, positive feeling in your heart and soul, you have to find it for yourself.  But I promise you, when it happens you will embrace it and wonder what the hell you were doing wasting and giving your experiences over to such negative things.

BTw, Nay, your new avatar its very nice and funny!

 Don't cha just love the point behind it?!!


I'm sorry I went off on a tangent it was meant for others as well, but I think you already knew that.

Take Care and GOOD LUCK!

Nay

[Telos]

Nay, I'm sorry.. I didn't realize the way I worded that post could give you such a reaction! I meant no ad hominem attack on Bruce. My intention was to criticize his explanation and offer my own viewpoint with support.

I said,

Robert Bruce regards these noises as completely superfluous and something to be ignored. Ironically, I also think his explanation is completely superfluous and something to be ignored.

Please note that I said "his explanation," and "I think."

From then on, I did not sprinkle "I think" into every sentence because I thought it was already given. I did not mean to assert my view as gospel - I'm not an expert in AP anyways, and frequently ask for advice. Nay, I'm truly sorry I gave you that impression, and am sorry to others if they saw it that way as well. I can reword my post or remove it if you like.

Please don't misunderstand. I don't think I've ever criticized Bruce in my entire time at this forum. This is his forum, after all, and I am thankful for the opportunity to be a member here.

To restate it in another manner... I'm always wary when someone says that I should "just ignore" something. Considering the subject matter is consciousness itself, I don't think anything that appears in the the realm of altered states of consciousness should be "ignored." I think that they can be actively used to change one's perspectives and abilities. I think Bruce's explanation is ambiguous and confusing (superfluously) and doesn't do the subject much justice. And by subject I don't mean AP in general, but these angry voices that appear to be so common when people are in deeply relaxed states.

However, I greatly admire Robert Bruce himself and am honored to be given the chance to participate in a public forum about his writings.

[Nay]

NOOO, don't you dare edit a word! ...we as a family and group here,  will never learn anything if it is always be altered.

I see now what you mean about the "ignore"...but that is pretty much what you need to do AT FIRST, just to get past that point and then once one gets good at controlled projections, that is when you start searching for the answers on why such negative things pop up all the time...did that make sense?

I hope you know I just needed to say what I said, and hope you hold no grudges against me.  (I get over protective some times..)  

I've have enjoyed you posts and look forward to more..  I just might have to make this up to you by a astral visit and hug...huh?

Nay

[Telos]

I see now what you mean about the "ignore"...but that is pretty much what you need to do AT FIRST, just to get past that point and then once one gets good at controlled projections, that is when you start searching for the answers on why such negative things pop up all the time...did that make sense?

Yes it does... sort of. Because these noises appear to me as a product of ignorance (ignoring some of your faculties), I read that sentence as ignoring ignorance, which isn't a bad thing.

I hope you know I just needed to say what I said, and hope you hold no grudges against me.  (I get over protective some times..)

I don't, and I hope you hold no grudges on me either! And don't worry, I was just reading the other day on how it's better to err on the side of thoroughness. I should start doing the same.

I've have enjoyed you posts and look forward to more..  I just might have to make this up to you by a astral visit and hug...huh?

I like reading your posts too and always look forward to more. That would be great! I'll visit you first if I get the chance

[Kazbadan]

You two will get married in no time... .

My experience was very confusing, but i still remember some fragemnst of it (my first AP at a few weeks ago). And, now that you (Nay) sepak about amplified sound, i think i remember something similar. I was getting out and i heared a noise (  a bad one) but when i returned to my bod i coiuld notice that the sound was changing it self and finally it was a normal sound (dont remember what). I mean, maybe the sound are bad because in the spliting moment our physical hears are very amplified.

Thats another explanation.


About being positive Nay, all i can say is that in the last year i started a very good modification in myself. I used to be very pessimist now iam always happy and feeling good. I see things in a different way and will not let some bad noises to win the fight

[Nay]

You two will get married in no time...

HAHAHAHAHA!!

My experience was very confusing, but i still remember some fragemnst of it (my first AP at a few weeks ago). And, now that you (Nay) sepak about amplified sound, i think i remember something similar. I was getting out and i heared a noise ( a bad one) but when i returned to my bod i coiuld notice that the sound was changing it self and finally it was a normal sound (dont remember what). I mean, maybe the sound are bad because in the spliting moment our physical hears are very amplified.

 Yes, that is my take anyways.   I can't remember all the times and noises that I've dealt with over the years.  They have certaintly lessened over time.  I suppose it's because after being scared out of a many projection only to find it was nothing to worry about, made me mad at myself...so now I just ignore it..lol.   BECAUSE I know what is behind my noises.

About being positive Nay, all i can say is that in the last year i started a very good modification in myself. I used to be very pessimist now iam always happy and feeling good. I see things in a different way and will not let some bad noises to win the fight.

There isn't a big enough emoticon to express the smile that I have on my face right now.   It makes me feel very good to read what you just said!  I'm very happy for you and hope you can continue down the bright path that you have seemed to have finally found.

Take Care,

Nay

[Kazbadan]

YOu know, you are a nice girl...maybe afterall you are gonna marry with me

More seriously: thanks for your help once again, but i must wait a little until i have another projection because my "lauching ramp" for obes are the sleep paralysys that i have from time to time.

[stone]

Throwing in my 2 cents here,

Scary noises, apparitions, and all of the like, are quite simply put....

The embodiment of your own fears.

Once I'd made it out a few times, and was scared back in, my fear began to subside.  Once my fear of going OB was gone... so were the noises and apparitions.  

Will you occasionally happen upon a malevolent or mischievous individual when out of body?  Most likely.  These things are sent to test us.  In a sense they help break down the fear.  Because one thing I can personally guarantee....

You cannot...  let me repeat that... CANNOT be harmed in the Astral.  Point blank.  You can be frightened, you can feel threatened... but all of these threats are hollow.  And, I might add, very few and far between.

There is a reason that OBE can pretty much only be achieved when the mind and body are at rest...

Lose your fear and these things will no longer be a problem.  I swear.

....and just a quick note to address the first poster who read that you might require "conjurations" in order to aid you in your OBE state.  I'm sorry, but that's entirely false.  And I might add, completely counterproductive to getting OBE.

Astral Projection is a craft in itself.  And the only craft you'll need.

Hope this helps.

cheers,

Stone