Ok, so because I believe, I am crazy?

[heter]

From http://www.ptypes.com/schizoidpd.html

High Openness
   Preoccupation with fantasy and daydreaming; lack of practicality; eccentric thinking (e.g., belief in ghosts, reincarnation, UFOs); diffuse identity and changing goals: for example, joining religious cult; susceptibility to nightmares and states of altered consciousness; social rebelliousness and nonconformity that can interfere with social or vocational advancement

Ok, I know I have problems, but is that the reason I beleive in all these things? I've been learning more about myself recnetly and have discovered I am an Introvert and have Body dysmorphic disorder. So what does this crap above mean? Is it just a form of control?

[beavis]

Thats what a schizoid is? Sign me up! I wanna be a schizoid.

[CaCoDeMoN]

Most of mental diseases are not a diseaese at all, they are only diagnosed like that. This is why it's impossible to cure them with drugs.

[beavis]

Theoreticly if everybody in a city saw the same UFO or ghost, all kinds of science instruments confirmed its real, and it was published in the most respected books, that text says the viewers are crazy, but the real retard is the one who wrote that. How do they know somebody didnt really see something?

[Telos]

Beavis, I have a very easy answer for you.

As much as I look down on the workers in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, they are well within their right to classify the above as a personality disorder.

personality disorder n.

Any of a group of disorders in which patterns of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about one's self and one's environment interfere with the long-term functioning of an individual, often manifested in deviant behavior and lifestyle.

Thankfully, not all people with PD's are forced to have treatment. Generally, no one is required psychiatric treatment unless they have committed a crime or are an invalid.

However, not being able to integrate well with society is a serious problem. If you do not have the choice or ability to friendly with others, to experience joy and stimulating conversations with others, then it is as if you are a legless person who does not have the choice or ability to stand up.

So, regardless of whether UFOs, ghosts, and all that are real or not, there is a strong correlation with believing in those things and not being able to integrate with society well. Someone who had a genuine UFO encounter is very much like a WWII veteran suffering a traumatic experience and not being able to integrate back into society well. The same might as well be said OBE's, as they are sometimes very traumatic.

heter, that link you gave us provides a handful of varying types of therapies on the bottom of the page. Surprisingly, they all have the same success rate. Almost all the different schools of thought in psychotherapy have the same success rate. And that success rate is "pretty good," which is why that similarity is not such a big deal. However, it does mean that if you are able to find your own means of integrating with society, then you do not require therapy.

Sometimes I very much would like to question the mental health of everyone in this forum, especially all the people who say, "I create reality." Does that mean you create society? If so, does that mean you constantly create a society that outcasts you? How much sense does that make? On the other hand, if you integrate well with society, then there is really nothing wrong you. But if you integrate well with society, how can you make such a dubious claim as "I create reality," without a whole of lot redefinition (belief constructing) on the words "I," "create" and "reality?" And how do you succeed in creating reality by redefinition of words, when words must be socially agreed upon in order for them to work?

I'll have to better organize that for another thread.

Regardless. Stop right now and check yourself. Are you able to integrate with society well? Then demonstrate it to yourself so that there is no doubt.

[Nostic]

Beavis, I have a very easy answer for you.

As much as I look down on the workers in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, they are well within their right to classify the above as a personality disorder.

personality disorder n.

Any of a group of disorders in which patterns of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about one's self and one's environment interfere with the long-term functioning of an individual, often manifested in deviant behavior and lifestyle.

Thankfully, not all people with PD's are forced to have treatment. Generally, no one is required psychiatric treatment unless they have committed a crime or are an invalid.

However, not being able to integrate well with society is a serious problem. If you do not have the choice or ability to friendly with others, to experience joy and stimulating conversations with others, then it is as if you are a legless person who does not have the choice or ability to stand up.

So, regardless of whether UFOs, ghosts, and all that are real or not, there is a strong correlation with believing in those things and not being able to integrate with society well. Someone who had a genuine UFO encounter is very much like a WWII veteran suffering a traumatic experience and not being able to integrate back into society well. The same might as well be said OBE's, as they are sometimes very traumatic.

heter, that link you gave us provides a handful of varying types of therapies on the bottom of the page. Surprisingly, they all have the same success rate. Almost all the different schools of thought in psychotherapy have the same success rate. And that success rate is "pretty good," which is why that similarity is not such a big deal. However, it does mean that if you are able to find your own means of integrating with society, then you do not require therapy.

Sometimes I very much would like to question the mental health of everyone in this forum, especially all the people who say, "I create reality." Does that mean you create society? If so, does that mean you constantly create a society that outcasts you? How much sense does that make? On the other hand, if you integrate well with society, then there is really nothing wrong you. But if you integrate well with society, how can you make such a dubious claim as "I create reality," without a whole of lot redefinition (belief constructing) on the words "I," "create" and "reality?" And how do you succeed in creating reality by redefinition of words, when words must be socially agreed upon in order for them to work?

I'll have to better organize that for another thread.

Regardless. Stop right now and check yourself. Are you able to integrate with society well? Then demonstrate it to yourself so that there is no doubt.

Do you integrate well into society?

[Telos]

Do you integrate well into society?

Yes, and I take it for granted. Some people clearly suffer illnesses, physical and psychological, that do not allow them to integrate well.

However, I do not integrate well when I prioritize altered states of consciousness above things like, say, homework. If I skip class to meditate, thinking that everything is consciousness and I can make everything up later through some superhuman feat of psychic willpower - society kicks my butt.

[heter]

I don't integrate well with society at all

[Leannain]

well my uncle   is  a  schizoid  and he doesn't believe in anything pointed there lmao

though he hears voices =)

[Graelwyn]

My ex was schizoid, it really isnt a big deal. Most of the population has some symptoms of the various personality disorders etc, and 50% of the population is an introvert. I am an introvert. Who wants to integrate into society anyway? I am borderline personality, but I dont care. I do what I can with it...deal with it, and people accept me or they dont.

[Graelwyn]

I seriously believe you can read too much when it comes to symptoms...why bother with someone else's opinion of the traits such and such ought to be displaying? Just be yourself for goodness sakes lol.

[Telos]

I seriously believe you can read too much when it comes to symptoms...why bother with someone else's opinion of the traits such and such ought to be displaying? Just be yourself for goodness sakes lol.

That's really the best advice in my opinion, too.

Just don't make yourself an angry, touchy, bothered, secluded anti-social person, or you'll always be upset. ;)

[atalanta]

Okay, well, I don't have this disorder but I have suffered from panic attacks, anxiety and depression.  I have also studied psychology, the various forms of it.  I can understand some people getting defensive about having their belief system described as pathological.  I don't think though that is what the psychologists who wrote the DSM-3 had in mind.  I think what they can be blamed for is not describing the disorder in a more clear way so that it doesn't include the entire human race, since we all have some level of belief in God, Gods, paranormal abilities, etc.

I went to a couple of sites last night to look the disorder up.  I think the type of person they are referring to is someone who was probably neglected emotionally as a child, who spends their ENTIRE time in some sort of fantasy believing that they are surrounded by conspiracies, aliens, etc.  That they are sooooo overcome by these fantasies that they can't work, create or maintain relationships, or basically have closed themselves off from the rest of the world.  Maybe they are the type of fellows who sit in dark rooms in front of the computer 24/7, looking up conspiracy theories, while their mums beg them to come down to tea and as they decide to go down, they kiss their cut-out supermodel poster and tell her that they won't be long and how happy he is now that they found a real woman.    

It is not about the functioning person who believes in ufos or other similar things but does go out with friends, enjoys life, is functioning fairly well in society, not that life is perfect and that they are always functioning perfectly but overall they are pretty okay.  They have some level of grip on reality.

I think that on some level it is true that there will be some of us who may have leanings towards this sort of personality but that it isn't a disorder.  Maybe because of our experiences it has made us more wary of people, but we can still interact.  In these cases, we can look at our own behaviour and if we want to change it we can do that ourselves or with the help of friends or family.

However, there are some people where its not just a personality trait but has become a disorder, that is, it has become disabling.  In that case it may require intervention.  Maybe they aren't even aware of it and the family have asked for medical intervention.  I mean look at drug addicts and alcoholics who often find it so hard to believe that their behaviour is having any sort of effect on other people, that their habit is destroying their bodies and minds, its only when they get clean that they can see things like this.

Every now and then I hear a statement about 'how its all in the mind (well, dah!) and its just a matter of getting yourself together and not being such baby.  If theres a problem just do what you need to do to get yourself out of it.'  Its not that easy.  When I was very depressed, no amount of my trying to cheer myself up was going to fix the problem.  When I have a panic attack, no amount of telling myself I shouldn't feel this way is going to make me feel calm.  Its as if there is a cliff, where up to the edge you can say, yeh, I can fix this myself, but once you are over that edge, you are on a very different level and without intervention, there just isn't a way you can get back up by yourself.  Depression is not just feeling very very sad.  Its on a whole different level.  People with schizoid personality disorders are not just loners who believe in ufos, they are also on a whole different level.

Look, I am not saying that we should get stuck on diagnoses because I think that people are too quickly placed into pigeonholes.  However, on the other hand the idea that all psychology is wrong, I think is faulty as well, because for those who do present with problems, a very large number find relief if not cures.  I think there is a place for medications, for behavioural therapies, psychotherapies, as well as, spiritual healing, the healing found in friendships and family.  I don't see why it has to be one or the other.  Yes medication doesn't cure everyone, but it does help a lot of people.  Its true that the other therapies also don't cure everyone but you can't discount the fact that there are a large number of people who do get better.  

I am curious, for those who believe that psychology is faulty or evil, what would you do if someone came to you with the symptoms described as a schizoid or schizophrenic or any of the other disorders in the DSMs?  Do you have specific alternatives which are going to be 100% cures?  I know that sounds smart but I am actually asking genuinely, do you know of alternatives?

[beavis]

Telos

As much as I look down on the workers in the fields of psychology and psychiatry, they are well within their right to classify the above as a personality disorder.

Quote:
personality disorder n.

Any of a group of disorders in which patterns of perceiving, relating to, and thinking about one's self and one's environment interfere with the long-term functioning of an individual, often manifested in deviant behavior and lifestyle.

Ok, (in some of the ways listed above) I'm disorderly. Good! I love to bring disorder to society. They can call it whatever they want, but that doesnt change what it is.

Thankfully, not all people with PD's are forced to have treatment. Generally, no one is required psychiatric treatment unless they have committed a crime or are an invalid.

I doubt they'd force me. I'm not crazy, just weird. But that is what a crazy person would say isnt it? Then lets say I have rare but true knowledge.

However, not being able to integrate well with society is a serious problem. If you do not have the choice or ability to friendly with others, to experience joy and stimulating conversations with others, then it is as if you are a legless person who does not have the choice or ability to stand up.

I can and so sometimes, but not as often as most. Its not that its too hard. I just choose not to as often. Most normal people are boring or only have an average intelligence. I like weird people.

So, regardless of whether UFOs, ghosts, and all that are real or not, there is a strong correlation with believing in those things and not being able to integrate with society well. Someone who had a genuine UFO encounter is very much like a WWII veteran suffering a traumatic experience and not being able to integrate back into society well. The same might as well be said OBE's, as they are sometimes very traumatic.

I agree there is a correlation, but they're saying EVERYBODY like that is crazy.

Sometimes I very much would like to question the mental health of everyone in this forum, especially all the people who say, "I create reality."

Probably some of the people here are crazy, but I dont know which. I'd guess more are sane.

There is some truth to what they're saying, but not to that extreme. We INFLUENCE reality in ways not predicted by the known laws of physics, ways that souls have direct control of, but most people are unskilled so they do a lot of random things.

I do think its probable that all life forms and maybe dead things too, combined and with the same goal, have extreme control over this reality to change the apparent (but not the real) laws of physics or make things appear out of thin air etc, but one person does not. Quantum physics allows those events (without specifying the cause), but says its very unlikely. And it is unlikely, because most people have little psychic skill. Or do you have a better theory to explain why reality is sometimes inconsistent with itsself?

Example: I had a book with no page numbers on any of the left pages. I checked 50 pages and paid much attention because I thought it was weird. 2 days later I found that most pages have page numbers, and they're still there now.

You probably saw nothing inconsistent about reality, but I know what I saw, and no amount of "help" can erase that memory. When I saw that, for logical reasons, I chose to always think it really happened, even after I get old and my memory fails. Nobody can ever make me think it might not have happened, even if I become insane later. Its too important a fact to lose.

For evolution-related reasons, we tend to slowly lose belief in things if they're not repeated in some form. That is not always the most intelligent behavior.

[Telos]

I am curious, for those who believe that psychology is faulty or evil, what would you do if someone came to you with the symptoms described as a schizoid or schizophrenic or any of the other disorders in the DSMs? Do you have specific alternatives which are going to be 100% cures? I know that sounds smart but I am actually asking genuinely, do you know of alternatives?

For diseases like schizophrenia and autism, where there are very clear abnormalities in the brain associated with the disease, I don't have any alternatives - other than to suggest that the disease falls into the realm of neuroscience rather than psychiatry.

But for mood disorders like depression, or other diseases where there are no clear abnormalities in the brain, and there is only the dubious claim that there is a "chemical imbalance," there are very VERY important alternatives that psychiatry and psychology just ignore as a practice. Because, you see, psychiatrists and psychologists recognize that in theory, lifestyle changes like diet and exercise can change one's mental health, but do they do anything to help the patient along with this? No, because dietitians and fitness instructors do that. What about helping the patient find a meaningful job? No, because headhunters and educational institutions do that. What about helping the patient learn meaningful skills? No, because skill instructors do that. You see where I'm going with this? Psychiatrists will generally give you a pill and ask you to come back in a week for another hour of "how are you feeling?" and "did you take your medication?" and repeat ad nauseam. Because that's all they're good at.

[beavis]

Telos I agree. For things where the solution isnt obvious, unlike if you have a heart attack you should go to a doctor, we are smarter than the specialists. We have general knowledge, and they want to do their specialty. We need to choose which specialist to go to.

[atalanta]

Hi,

I have had medication, cognitive behavioural therapy and psychoanalysis for the anxiety.  The medication was hopeless or horrible for me.  The cog behav I can separate into two because I have actually done a short term group program and I also saw a couple of psychiatrists years ago who called themselves cog behavs but were happy to see me once a week doing nothing more than having a chat.  Either way it was useless or I found it patronising because they weren't listening to me the person, I may as well have been one of their lab rats.  Psychoanalysis for me has been the most successful not only in terms of my anxiety levels but it has helped me in a sense to grow.  

There is often a misconception that all psychotherapists, including cog behavs who do 'talking therapies' are the same.  They aren't.  There are things which all my previous therapists missed which my psychoanalyst has not, questions I wish I had been asked which they never did, etc.  I believe that psychoanalysis and probably Jung's analytical psychology work best for me but they are not the same as cog behavs doing counselling.

Now I agree with you about the fact that all the various psycho-treatments/therapists/scientists are not working cohesively to offer the best treatments for people and because of that there are many who are falling through the cracks and becoming revolvind door patients.  I also have longed to see a central entry point for people who consider themselves to have a problem where they can come and their situation will be looked over by several professionals including naturapaths, dieticians, social workers, etc, so the person is treated as a whole and from every angle.  Not only this but that the agreed plan is seen through from start to finish without the threat of government slashing services or funding.  I mean, some people may turn up with a simple phobia which can be successfully treated with short term cog behav, others may need only to be monitored for medication levels and may need more living skills support, yet others may need long term, frequent, depth psych treatments.  One shouldn't be punished for needing more or less and each should have their needs met because only that way will they stop coming back into the system and wasting taxpayer's money.

I am not sure what you mean by some cases being left to neuroscience and not psychiatrists.  Neuroscience is a study on which psychiatrists depend.  I mean, its like saying that marriages should be celebrated by theologians rather than priests.  I studied basic neuroscience on my way to becoming a psychologist (I am not a psychologist, it was what I was planning).  Psychiatrists treat people because they are medical doctors who are able to advise on chemical treatments.  A neuroscientist is not a medical doctor so they couldn't recommend chemical intervention.  Perhaps I have misunderstood what you meant.

I am not supporting psychiatrists because I think that a lot of them stink as therapists and they treat their patients as money making machines.  For those who need long term treatment, finding a psychiatrist is next to impossible because why should they put up with a difficult long term case when they can see a schizophrenic or manic depressive whom they don't have to really deal with, they can just give them pills.  I am not saying that schizophrenics don't have their share of complications but patients who are anorexics or self mutilate or are borderlines, etc, need constant monitoring as they are constantly in one crisis or another.

I think the whole system stinks and needs to be overhauled.  The first thing that needs to happen is that the therapists and scientists need to stop using patients as pawns in their 'chicken and egg' arguments as to what comes first, the chemical imbalance, the childhood trauma, the maladaptive learned behaviour, etc.  They need to sit down and recognise that they are dealing with real people who need real help and that it may be help on several levels.  In that sense I think we are in total agreement.

I think we already have very good treatments but people are being denied them because of incompetence, lack of vision, ie, a cog behav won't send a patient to a psychoanalyst when they are unsuccessful, lack of funding, a corrupt system and a system where people just getting referred.

I guess when I was asking you what alternatives did you perceive, I meant do you have alternative treatments or ways of thinking of mental illnesses and disorders to the ones being recommended at this time.  The fact that the system sucks at the moment, well you would have to be blind not to see that.  I only read today that two community mental health services are about to shut in the Chatswood area in Sydney.

Okay, now I feel like I am hijacking the thread - can't half tell I have an interest in this!    

[Smilodon29A]

Telos I would like to answer your question about the mental health of people how say that they create reality.

First off let me tell you I integrate well into society , and I too take it for granted sometimes.

Ok now the "I create reality" does not literally
mean what it says. It does not mean that I create
rain or trees or what ever.

That simply means that I create MY reality.
I choose the way I think about anything, and
"as you think, so shall you become".

That last quote is very true also but not if you take it out of proportion.
If my dream is to be the best football player of the world, and all I do all day is eat and sleep, that obviously will not happen.
But if I train everyday, no matter the weather, my mood in that specific time, or anything else you CAN after a long time just achieve that goal.

The key is to be positive about that goal, not to loose faith in oneself and WORK HARD for it.

Well that is at least the way that I see the phrase "I create reality"... but I also always add "my reality".

Hope this will help you understand that mindset a little better.

[Smilodon29A]

Heter I agree with people that you don't have a disease if you function as a normal individual.

About integrating with society, IT CAN BE LEARNED. I have myself as an example:)
What is your problem with people ?

Is it fear to talk to them, do you dislike most people or what ?

[heter]

Heter I agree with people that you don't have a disease if you function as a normal individual.

About integrating with society, IT CAN BE LEARNED. I have myself as an example:)
What is your problem with people ?

Is it fear to talk to them, do you dislike most people or what ?

I sort of fear people. I fear being seen by a stranger because of what they might think of me. I also don't like the way most people act and think. I used to go out and have friends, but It just didn't feel right. I am now out of school and spend my days in my room alone. Not doing anything to productive and afraid to go outside in fear of what people might think of me. I am also ashamed in my appearance. I beleive this contributes to my fear of people. I feel like an outcast or a freak for the way I am in every aspect. Especially the way I look. I look at spirituality as an escape in a way, and I also look at it as being very important and that I can learn from it and better myself. I don't spend much time on energy work or obe anymore though. I stopped because I wasn't seeing amazing results. It's the way I am to stop and never finish what I begin. There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

[beavis]

heter, if you dont talk to those people, why does it matter what they think? Do you care what some random person 100 miles from you thinks about you? If not, then why care what the local people you avoid think? If you do, then I'll have to tell you what I think about you....  

I care what people think about me only as much as its useful to me for them to think certain things. I want potential employers to think I act professionally. (theoreticly) I would want drug dealers to think I wouldnt touch a suit. If I dont expect to ever want anything from a certain person or people they talk to, it doesnt bother me if they think I'm a waste of skin (unless they get in my face about it).

There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

Thats scary. I finish pooping with toilet paper. I guess you dont even buy it.

[Smilodon29A]

Well the answer is simple: work on your physical appearance, go out more.

Just work in baby steps... do a thing that feels a little scary until it no longer does, and then move on.
Just like learning to AP

And about finishing things, it is just a question of motivation.

[CaCoDeMoN]

I sort of fear people. I fear being seen by a stranger because of what they might think of me. I also don't like the way most people act and think. I used to go out and have friends, but It just didn't feel right. I am now out of school and spend my days in my room alone. Not doing anything to productive and afraid to go outside in fear of what people might think of me. I am also ashamed in my appearance. I beleive this contributes to my fear of people. I feel like an outcast or a freak for the way I am in every aspect. Especially the way I look. I look at spirituality as an escape in a way, and I also look at it as being very important and that I can learn from it and better myself. I don't spend much time on energy work or obe anymore though. I stopped because I wasn't seeing amazing results. It's the way I am to stop and never finish what I begin. There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

I think that your problem is using spirituality as an escape from life. With spirituality is seems that life has some sort of "deeper sense", but what if it hasn't? (nearly)All the suffering would be meaningless then, and there would be no reason to escape from life...
I use spirituality and occultism as a tool to make my life more enjoyable, and this caused total change in myself in less than one year . I stopped being afraid of people, I have many friends, so I can get help when I have problems, and I love to help people, but not because of Karma(I don't believe in it) - just for fun.
I think that the problem of suffering is rooted much deeper in the mind than people think. Somewhere in the subconsciousness people might actually ENJOY problems and suffering, and love to complain about it. I think that when subconsciousness will be reprogrammed, the desire of success will be so strong that you cannot fail.

[clandestino]

Heter I agree with people that you don't have a disease if you function as a normal individual.

About integrating with society, IT CAN BE LEARNED. I have myself as an example:)
What is your problem with people ?

Is it fear to talk to them, do you dislike most people or what ?

I sort of fear people. I fear being seen by a stranger because of what they might think of me. I also don't like the way most people act and think. I used to go out and have friends, but It just didn't feel right. I am now out of school and spend my days in my room alone. Not doing anything to productive and afraid to go outside in fear of what people might think of me. I am also ashamed in my appearance. I beleive this contributes to my fear of people. I feel like an outcast or a freak for the way I am in every aspect. Especially the way I look. I look at spirituality as an escape in a way, and I also look at it as being very important and that I can learn from it and better myself. I don't spend much time on energy work or obe anymore though. I stopped because I wasn't seeing amazing results. It's the way I am to stop and never finish what I begin. There hasn't been one thing I have ever managed to complete.

Hi there Heter, it sounds like you're going through a real low at the moment.

In order to get out of it, one of the first things you need to do is accept the way you look. In fact, you have to genuinely like the way you look. I don't mean this in a conceited way; I'm just saying that one can find beauty in anything, but it is often hard to see at first.

Not only do you need to accept yourself physically, but you also must accept the person that you are, mentally. Perhaps you might find Franz Bardon's exercise on Soul mirrors useful here... Its in his book, Initiation into Hermetics. This exercise forces you to confront every aspect of your personality, positive & negative. Then it allows you to change the parts you do not like.

People often say "a leopard can't change his spots", but this just isn't true. Happy people do fall into depressive states, or fall upon hard times. Unhappy people often change their outlooks on lives as they grow older, & become very positive people, unrecognisable from when you knew them e.g. 10years previously.

Ok, I'm probably going to start sounding like some kind of crappy life-coach type person, but who cares...
1) get outside. Walk with your head held high, looking at the horizon. Take a stroll through a park, and enjoy it !
2) if you have family, spend a bit of time with them, even if its only going to the shops or just watching tv with them.
3) try and do a good deed for someone each day.

This advice might seem like rubbish, but give it a go. Maybe it'll help you feel a bit happier about yourself, I hope it does !!

Mark

[Smilodon29A]

Mark that kind of advice is not rubbish, I have myself as an example.

Heather do what he says, but about the way you look, I would rather suggest you do some workout as that alone adds a lot to your confidence, not to mention you feel good after it.