Why wont spirits tell anything useful ?

[Rob]

So, whats the equation for computing the intensity of chi-energy?
How would you calculate the coordinates of your astral location?
How many times higher is the frequency of buddic plane from that of astral?

Well, maths and physics is worked out by....mathmaticians and physicists! Who for the most part have not applied themselves to this problem. I am, however, of the opinion that one day they will and it will yield to analysis.
Infact, this has already begun. Tom Bearden, in his book uuummmm "Excalibur Briefing" does give a differential equation which he claims governs the movements of chi-type energy. Also wilhelm reich made good headway in understanding the dynamic movements of orgone, and a lot of the stuff I mentioned in my last post could be linked to this (chi - ZPF and vortex connections for instance).
Second question - no idea! In terms of frequencies (infolded etc) and 3d coordinates I suspect.
Third q - probably logarithmic and with discreet steps

I wouldn't be surprised if you find these questions stupid and are laughing on me.

Naa!! As you can see they are questions I take quite seriously. But I also realise that our current level of understand is way too limited to go around demanding absolute mathmatical proofs.

But hopefully I conveyed the point that only physical plane yields to mathematical analysis.

Well, as you can see, my opinion differs!!

Its a different matter altogether that you chose to support the "claims" of someone you know for whatever reasons

I dont know catherine, my interaction with her has been limited to a couple of posts, no more. I was not trying to support anyone, merely point out the unerasonably-ness and flaws in cacos post.

Rob

[Rob]

Caco:

" connection of energy body to fibronacci sequence" is a mathematical statement so there should be mathematical proof for it or it'll be just a pointless statement.

I disagree (betcha couldn't see that one coming???! hehe). Experiencial and observational proofs are the best you're gonna get, and quite valid, especially in a place like this.

This way you could also say that sciencists get their ideas from aliens, but don't want to say that in public, so their reputation will not be destroyed. Both of these are claims without evidence.

Yup, my point was we dont know, so trying to back someone into a wall by demanding proofs is unfair.

Even I sometimes have dreams that are not based in physical reality, but are all about mathematical equations.

wow, cool!!!! Tell us about them, sounds fascinating!

Rob

[patapouf]

Math is limited in a sense; you can not calculate everything and this is easily to prove if only you start to play with the number ''infinity''.

[beavis]

You cant solve (-1)^infinity = x. So what? The problem has no logical meaning. Its gibberish. All words are limited because "sdkjkjweuruxnmshiswiuermnjsdfu" exists.

[patapouf]

I think I was not clear enough, sorry.

So, whats the equation for computing the intensity of chi-energy?
How would you calculate the coordinates of your astral location?
How many times higher is the frequency of buddic plane from that of astral?

This is the reason why there are ''limits'', you can't calculate or ''measure'' something if you do not set boundaries. Example: it is impossible to find coordinates if a person is in a infinitely wide astral plane (maybe somebody know if astral planes have some type of boundaries?). Or if God is infinite, how can science prove it with somekind of mathematical formula? You can't really ''measure''  God if he is infinite.

It is more in that sense I meant it; how can we deal with some problems if we adopt the infinity concept at different levels?  Maybe I'm totally off topic and I'm sorry If I have done so!  

Take care,

[CaCoDeMoN]

Math is limited in a sense; you can not calculate everything and this is easily to prove if only you start to play with the number ''infinity''.

It's because infinity is not a number. It's only a symbol used in some deinitions, but never in calculations. I would explain it, but I can't translate this from Polish language(there's no math terms in my English dictionary)

wow, cool!!!! Tell us about them, sounds fascinating!

It certainly was funny. I was studying math for an exam, and when I gone to sleep I had such dream. I've not seen anything in it, it was also not verbal, there was only a function, but existing on a different level of thinking. I could "feel" and fully understand it, it's hard to describe in words...

[CaCoDeMoN]

This is the reason why there are ''limits'', you can't calculate or ''measure'' something if you do not set boundaries.

Not really. When there are no boundaries of plane, coordinates on it can be easily measured relatively.

You can't really ''measure'' God if he is infinite.

IF he is infinite.

[Rob]

Patapouf:

This is the reason why there are ''limits'', you can't calculate or ''measure'' something if you do not set boundaries. Example: it is impossible to find coordinates if a person is in a infinitely wide astral plane

hhmmm interesting....but the physical is, to all extents and purposed (and, honestly, there is little to disprove this), infinite, yet we still have reference points. OK so in the absolute sense you cannot specify coordinates since there is infinite on all sides therefore coordinates are impossible, but you can always start somewhere. For instance, in the astral, there already appears to be a mapping system in place (re: astral plane surface structure). Interestingly, RB wants to create a complete map of the astral some day!!

Caco:

It certainly was funny. I was studying math for an exam, and when I gone to sleep I had such dream. I've not seen anything in it, it was also not verbal, there was only a function, but existing on a different level of thinking. I could "feel" and fully understand it, it's hard to describe in words...

Very nice! Exams do get right into you head huh? You must've been revising like a real demon!! (yeah terrible I know sorry....lol)
Have you ever had the experience of waking up and seeing text scrolling past your minds eye, during times of heavy learning? I've had that a couple of times, and RB has noticed it to. I would love to hear from anyone else who has.

btw apologies if I was a bit harsh in laughing at you before, I can be so impulsive at times! Anyway, sorry!

peace

Rob

[patapouf]

but the physical is, to all extents and purposed (and, honestly, there is little to disprove this), infinite, yet we still have reference points. OK so in the absolute sense you cannot specify coordinates since there is infinite on all sides therefore coordinates are impossible, but you can always start somewhere.

Yeah, if you start somewhere (ex: planet earth for the physical or another thing for a specific astral plane), it might be possible to create some type of coordinates and reference points to map the astral (and help others on their OBEs). To create a map of the astral isn't easy to do, you probably need a lot of experience like Robert to do that! I have never been to the astral planes while having an OBE so I really don't know how it looks like. The drawing in the back of  Robert's book Astral Dynamics is one of the only glimpse that I may have of what an astral plane looks like!

Take care,

[Psan]

We all assume the mind exists, even though there is no physical proof of its location or its nature. Should I believe that the mind doesn't exist because there is no proof that it does, likewise to how one can't believe in spirit guides for similar reasons?

This looks like off topic, but there's not much fun when you only post on topic  
Your mind is nothing but you yourself. There is self reference when you assume that you exist, there cannot be any assumptions, because you are identical to the mind you are assuming. No other proof is required, other than proving the identity -> YOU=YOU. Which any simple logic allows.

Nevertheless there is no direct proof of existence of other minds (which leads to an interesting debate covered under solipsism). You must infer it from others actions. Simple experiments can tell you that there are more 'minds' other than your own. You cannot perceive the mind directly because its not a physical object and your senses and scientific instruments are designed to detect only physical entities. However you can easily infer the existence of other minds by communicating to them, if you get a meaningful communication which is consistent and repeatable and verifiable. You can also check the effect it has on its surroundings and detect its presence, just like we detect physical 'energy'.

Spirit guides are non-physical and we cant see them directly for the similar reasons, they are only 'minds'. However you can communicate with them, through unknown means, perhaps by lending them your own 'hardware' (brain) for a while. What we lack is the ability to do it consistently, only a few have such talents and skills.
Moreover, there are no publicly verifiable accounts of such communications, except personal experiences. So although existence of minds other than your own is established beyond doubt, we have far less evidence for the existence of spirit guides and such, to establish them scientifically. Possibility that they are real cannot be denied. Only way to show this is to set up rigorous experiments, which seems to be a difficult task ATM.

[Psan]

Yeah, if you start somewhere (ex: planet earth for the physical or another thing for a specific astral plane), it might be possible to create some type of coordinates and reference points to map the astral

How are you gonna effectively map astral when everyone perceives it differently? Even your own perceptions of the same thing (e.g your room) in astral differ from visit to visit. The liquid nature of it defys any such attempts. There are no directions and no time, no laws and no maths holds. Bruce will surely map it, but it will be his own version.

What we need here is different pointers, perhaps of mental nature, which can be unambiguously shared by all. Then we can proceed to invent a logic not based on numbers, so that one can follow those pointers using a special astral logic and arrive at some destination without having any previous experience of that astral location. This is of course my guess only.

Perhaps spirits know about shared realities, which are somewhat permanent, and as there are no geometrical relations holding here, we can at least list them out, if some spirit bothers to tell you. You can't visit them because you don't know they are there, and without anyone to guide you, you are on your own mostly. Create your own and let it dissolve in seconds, back to your body....

[Blackstream]

What we really need is some way to observe the astral independent of perceptions.  Figure out the underlying workings of the astral.  Once we can do that, then we can start mathematically figuring stuff out.  Until then, it's like daydreaming about 2 girls and trying to figure out how far apart they are.

[Chaoslogic]

I'm a bit angry here. Why is that everyone we channel insists on being self-help guide instead of providing us with interesting knowledge? Practical knowledge? I don't care about the other planets we're never going to discover in this life time. Where's the cure for AIDs or cancer that would save hundreds of lives? If it's in the Ashkashic, as all recorded knowledge of the past, present, and future is (and the certainty of a future discovery of cures is an inevitable possibility, and not a matter of "if" it is discovered), it should be accessible! So where is this information?

INSERT: I'm getting the intuitive feeling here that they could tell us, but thatwould be cheating. It still doesn't answer why projectionists and channelers couldn't do this.

[CaCoDeMoN]

I'm a bit angry here. Why is that everyone we channel insists on being self-help guide instead of providing us with interesting knowledge? Practical knowledge? I don't care about the other planets we're never going to discover in this life time. Where's the cure for AIDs or cancer that would save hundreds of lives? If it's in the Ashkashic, as all recorded knowledge of the past, present, and future is (and the certainty of a future discovery of cures is an inevitable possibility, and not a matter of "if" it is discovered), it should be accessible! So where is this information?

INSERT: I'm getting the intuitive feeling here that they could tell us, but thatwould be cheating. It still doesn't answer why projectionists and channelers couldn't do this.

What if there's no records of future, only probabilities? If there would be records of future, and people would know it, it's logical that they could change it, and then records would be not true.
About cures for AIDS, etc. : What if Earth was meant to be a damned concentration camp  and sometimes even slaughterhouse for the most of humanity? What if all these guides agree that people should suffer? Truly terrifying perspective. I think that it could be so.
What if that's all for some silly kind of "higher good"? Channelings posted by Rastus some time ago seem to support these statements.

Very nice! Exams do get right into you head huh? You must've been revising like a real demon!! (yeah terrible I know sorry....lol)

Not really. Just like every other person could do. Brain can adapt itself to be used in many completely different tasks, and with enough training everyone can get to a level when performing some task requires no verbal thinking - I call it a level of "true understanding"(like Vipassana meditation but on the math ). The problem is that people are lazy, and want to put all the sh*t served on TV channels at their free time into their brains rather than do something more useful.

Have you ever had the experience of waking up and seeing text scrolling past your minds eye, during times of heavy learning? I've had that a couple of times, and RB has noticed it to. I would love to hear from anyone else who has.

Only a few times, the text can be read but not always makes sense, it happens at the state of consciousness that some people call Focus 12. When I relax more there occurs smooth transition to 3d.

btw apologies if I was a bit harsh in laughing at you before, I can be so impulsive at times! Anyway, sorry!

No problem.

[beavis]

This is infinite but boundaries were still found. The graph of a small equation.

[CaCoDeMoN]

This is infinite but boundaries were still found. The graph of a small equation.

There's easier way to get something infinite, but with boundary:
1/2+1/4+1/8+1/16+...=1
or:
0.9999999.....=1

[Psan]

I have a feeling that this world is a prison and we are being kept here so that we learn our 'lessons'. We are brainwashed before the birth and programmed to forget everything. Somehow we get bound to a body and cannot escape. We are forced to stay in this body, and the punishment for escaping - severe pain. We avoid death to avoid pain.

Fear is programmed into us so that we dont venture too much into non-physical. Although there are some loop holes and hacks (AP), but it is kept effectively under check. If you look at what we really do here, you'd find it absolutely ridiculous. We eat, sleep, excrete, fight like dogs for food and space and struggle every second of our lives. We have emotions programed into us to keep us in control. Those who behave nicely in spite of these pressures are allowed out, else you are pushed back again in a new birth.

No spirits (except the negative ones) want to interfere here, although they may help someone who is doing well. All things are kept secret, especially the non-physical ones by hook or crook, but by mostly supplying contradictory information. Physical laws are built such that we cant escape too far away from this small ball of mud and rock.

I came across similar ideas on Internet, so its definitely not a product of my mind only. Its too negative for me accept and I avoid such thoughts if possible, but something bugs me often, that it could be true.

[CaCoDeMoN]

I came across similar ideas on Internet, so its definitely not a product of my mind only. Its too negative for me accept and I avoid such thoughts if possible, but something bugs me often, that it could be true.

I think that it could be true. Or false. And what if life on earth is like soviet concentration camp, full of meaningless work,hate and suffering. How can people living in extreme poverty in africa learn anything?(damn, this conversation reminds me of "human slaughterhouse" vision my brother had)

[Psan]

It can be a training ground to develop your abilities and control your mind by slowing it down to a low vibration. The solid physical dampens the thought = action spiral effectively, giving you a better control.

Having said that, why would anyone build such a horrific training school? And why would one still like to come here after a single experience.

If you really wanted to learn something it could have been at least painless and a little bit pleasent, with an option to painlessly abort the training. Oh, and most importantly, I dont see a need to destroy all the knowledge of youself before going to a school.

[sloof]

will you want to do something else if it is pleasant?

will you do it because of pleasure or because of it?

[CaCoDeMoN]

Having said that, why would anyone build such a horrific training school? And why would one still like to come here after a single experience.

Maybe because it's fun? I think that sometimes even suffering of a person can be fun to their deeper aspect - "higher self". I know that it's sick, but when a person has problems like a depression, their "higher self" probably has similar problems too(but from a different perspective)
I've also found out that when mind is perfectly controlled, there will be no problems with external reality too. I don't know how, but it works.
Another interesting perspective is that life is like a computer game, and this would explain why nearly all the problems are there.

[karnautrahl]

There is so much hurt in the world true. But there is so much beauty too. All these "training school" ideas and other nonsense like it just explain and simplify way way too much the reality of our world.  I see what some skeptics mean when some of things people believe are almost designed to attempt to explain everything away somehow.

I've been suicidal in my life, and depressed and yep it feels yuk and never ending. However it's part of a spectrum of experience, why we have that spectrum I don't know, but I think it might be important.  At the other end of the scale, I sat on boat the other day-one that we seriously are considering buying-or one like it. She's 30 yrs old and gorgeous-I could "feel" her but that's all I'm saying on that one. Basically being there on her, and in the surroundings of water, countryside, peace etc..well it's the other end of the scale.

Some people find comfort and a weird kind of security in beautiful fluffy visions of the universe, and others-many others find that security in almost horrific, completely negative sounding viewpoints ("this place is hell" etc).  The truth is imho extremely unlikely to be anything like these two extremes.

I don't feel that there is fate and a guiding force in any simplistic way at all. The truth(s) are going to be more complete, more solid and more powerful than anything anyone has ever come up with-and they won't just be a product of human invention, though that IS probably going be a part of it as we are a part of that truth.

[Psan]

sloof,
can you elaborate ?

Pain and pleasure, reward and punishment..... can be very effective methods of trianing, as we all know. (For the less evolved).
I feel that its only natural that we find ourselves in such a system. Perhaps the next level in this game will be driven by a hunger for knowledge, desire to create, curiosity and enjoyment.

CaCoDeMoN,
I can see what you mean. I hold the view that we are only capable of one emotion - pleasure, at the highest level. The other emotions, including the negative emotions that we experience are 'colors' of it. From the perspective of a 'higher me', they are all same -- i.e a kind of enjoyment.

[Ben K]

Having said that, why would anyone build such a horrific training school? And why would one still like to come here after a single experience.

Have you asked yourself how much fun it would be to be an eagle? Or ride the wives as a dolphin for a day?

If you really wanted to learn something it could have been at least painless and a little bit pleasent, with an option to painlessly abort the training.

"pain" is something we created ourselves and only exists in this physical realm ;P More important, pain contrasts pleasure. Because what is pleasure without pain?

Oh, and most importantly, I dont see a need to destroy all the knowledge of youself before going to a school.

If you were learning a lesson on catholic monotheism, and were brought up in Islam, you would be reluctent to accept any facts or beliefs based on catholic knowledge. So, for the purpose of the class, you decide to keep an open mind and explore the subject further.

What im trying to say is, we cannot learn anything if all we are doing is looking at the situation and saying "Gosh, when my brother was murdered in my past life and i then went out and murdered his killer, things didnt turn out so well." and yada yada yada.

I mean think about it, if we remembered our past lives we would make NO progress as a species.

[Psan]

Or ride the wives.......

Now thats fun, only if their husbands dont mind  

Anyway, why see only the bright side? Imagine the constant fear of being eaten and the day long hunt for a piece of meat. Is there any specific reason for you choosing the creatures on the top of food chain? However I dont deny that pleasure and pain exist together. The point is that this system of pleasure and pain has its merits and demerits, and we dont have any other option but to evolve through it. Once you realise that these things are controlling you every second, it becomes sort of annoying, IMO.

I mean think about it, if we remembered our past lives we would make NO progress as a species

Well, I thought about it, but I dont see it. Just think about your school, what would be your condition if you forget completely the things you learnt in the past standard, as soon as you enter the next standard ?

This is the only thing that bothers me about reincarnation, otherwise its a good enough theory. So my only guess is, they clear the past knowledge so that you don't escape this prison, sounds bad