What exactly are you trying to achieve by doing energy work?

[Seeker of Matter]

I understand what your saying Seeker, and I'm having trouble explaining it , so I'm just going to put it plainly.

My actions are not the only the that warms my heart like the grin from the old man did. I also get that feeling when i see birds flying above my head, children playing and laughing, watching the tree in our yard and the birds that rest in it, our cats enjoying a good petting, and so many more. Its not just my actions that make me feel like that, its everything around me that does it as well

Again, its really hard to explain ^^;

I do understand why you are questioning why we do this, its all to human to want to understand. I'm constantly asking questions, whether it be about the actions of the ones around me, or how something works, I'm a scientist at hart Laughing

well thank you for being understanding. it is not because i suddenly hate everybody and that i want to say that the human race is doomed (i guess you could get that impression). the thing about selfishness is not something that i have been working my entire life trying to prove. it was just a thought that some day passed through my head for no reason.

well it is great that you say you understand, that makes me feel a little less like the odd one out
And what greatly lifts my spirit is the things you say that make you happy, like children playing and laughing. i hope that i some day will learn to see the beauty in that too and be happy just because of that. i find happiness hard do achieve when you have critical mind. so when you say that you too are a scientist at hart, and that you manages to stay happy anyway, well that is impressive

[knightlight]

well, this only applies when we try to find ultimate truths, beyond the humans. well i am not trying to do that. i am choosing to stay narrow-minded and hold on to these terms as selfishness and good and bad even though they are build on a non-existing foundation.

oh...    nevermind.  I guess when I come to these forums I try to remain as close to ultimate truths as I can, and try to even during normal life.  Its a struggle for me to really take any view of these human terms other than a light hearted usage simply to get by in society.  I didnt take anything you said negatively really, there where no insults thrown or you didnt say my view where wrong, so its all good.

[userlain]

why does everything has to have a value attached to it?

GOD wants you to be happy, dear neighbour

[Seeker of Matter]

well, this only applies when we try to find ultimate truths, beyond the humans. well i am not trying to do that. i am choosing to stay narrow-minded and hold on to these terms as selfishness and good and bad even though they are build on a non-existing foundation.

oh...    nevermind.  I guess when I come to these forums I try to remain as close to ultimate truths as I can, and try to even during normal life.  Its a struggle for me to really take any view of these human terms other than a light hearted usage simply to get by in society.  I didnt take anything you said negatively really, there where no insults thrown or you didnt say my view where wrong, so its all good.

hehe, i guess what that quote says is that i am an idiot huh

I like philosophy as well, but i find that my mind travels too far out and that i really need my mind to be focused here on earth, on gravity and mass and 3D and the society in general. i am living here, my body is living here and it is bound to the rules of this world, so i cannot just escape it while my body is still alive. i guess than when you are dead and you no longer have a physical body to take care of, then you can philosophize all that you want. but doing it here simply creates a nasty duality, well that is my experience.

enlighten me

[Tom]

Seeker of Matter, the problem you are facing is very simple. Every time you are feeling discomfort, it is because you are resisting something. Learn to accept what is instead of resisting it. You don't have to like it; you just have to acknowledge what is before you can get a grasp on it to change it. Maybe you will even find that it is not worth the effort to change or that it doesn't really need to change. The important thing is that your resistance is only making you suffer and there is nothing to gain from sufferring.

[knightlight]

hahaha no it doesnt make you an idiot, and i guess you can either take your approach or mine, depending on if you want to be practical or not.  Your take on it is probably the smart thing to do, but as I said before, I have experienced what it is to exist outside of this reality and its hard to be sure what to think now!  If I will indeed cross over to this chaotic mode of existance upon physical death then I need to not only get used to it, but erase my preconcieved misconceptions and unlearn what I have learned.  I am quiet frankly bored of this existance and cant wait to cross over.  I just want to be prepared for the transition is all.  I dont want to be laying on my death bed crying out for my loved ones, staying attatched to this existance, begging for forgiveness and be devoid of ultimate truths.  I want to simply say "finally... catch you folks on the flip side" and just slip away with a smile.  Through my experience I have come to the conclusion that the only truely great thing about this stage of existance is that it is so stable, mundane, and organized.  The "astral" is wildly unpredictable and so easily manipulated both consiously and subconsiously that it can be a bit annoying.  Atleast I can wake up in the morning and count on the fact that my life will be routine and humdrum 99 out of 100 days.  It is a blessing.

Enlighten yourself!  

[Seeker of Matter]

Seeker of Matter, the problem you are facing is very simple. Every time you are feeling discomfort, it is because you are resisting something. Learn to accept what is instead of resisting it. You don't have to like it; you just have to acknowledge what is before you can get a grasp on it to change it. Maybe you will even find that it is not worth the effort to change or that it doesn't really need to change. The important thing is that your resistance is only making you suffer and there is nothing to gain from sufferring.

I am not quite sure what it is that you think i am resisting? is it happiness? help me out here, what you are writing does sound logical to me

speaking of logic

Through my experience I have come to the conclusion that the only truely great thing about this stage of existance is that it is so stable, mundane, and organized. The "astral" is wildly unpredictable and so easily manipulated both consiously and subconsiously that it can be a bit annoying. Atleast I can wake up in the morning and count on the fact that my life will be routine and humdrum 99 out of 100 days. It is a blessing.

I have come to think about if the physical world and the astral world are two extremes of the same spectre? both too much. the physical plane is too dense too heavy and unchangeable, it limits your thoughts and mind because of the unbendable laws of the physical. Whereas the astral is (from what i have read, and from what you just wrote:)) too airy and changeable. what you think becomes reality, meaning that you could be a potential god, also meaning that you could be absolutely insane and image great harm on the beings in the astral and that would just happen.

this is just like the brain. it has a right part which controls imagination and creativity and so and a left part which controls the logics. persons relying totally on either side are "false" so to speak. no part of the brain is sufficient in it self, but both sides working cooperatively will give the best results.

are we perhaps supposed to learn the logics here on earth because that we otherwise would just flow away in a totally uncontrollable stream of feelings in the astral?

we must be here for some reason, why would we be here if this was all useless? i think that we must embrace the logics here, and take them with us in the astral so that we will become more..... reasonable there

i sometimes become a little scared, mostly because it seems as if the afterlife has lost its mystics, and by that also its hope. people say that when we die, we go to the astral, and there we can go to one of the 7(?) planes according to our vibrations and that is it!!!. it all seems laid out.

i am quite mad because you have taken away my dream of travelling up to god when i die, who is a old friendly man with a huge beard, and there are fluffy skies all over, and angels with wings and harmonic sounds and everything is well, all will become clear to you and you will be happy all the time BAM!!!!! dream breaks, "you don't go there you stupid moron, you go to the astral planes, and i have a map of them here, and according to your vibrations, well it seams you will be spending some time in the lower astral realms, have a nice stay in torture land, and watch out for soul eating demons while you are at it, because if you think negative thoughts, they will come, and don't be scared either because of you are, then they will also come!!"
then when i am in the astral planes, i will be dreaming of another place when i die in the astral.... It will all go around in circles!!!!
have you ever thought about that this might just be a astral world that has been de-mystified?  

now i am making no sense again.....

comments?

[XenXheng]

Hey Seeker,

Funny, but I had this exact same conversation with an atheist friend of mine a few years ago!  Usually he always sticks to his guns and stubbornly never shuts up until he's sure you've given up.  However, this time, and this time only, I made HIM think for a change about this concept of all actions being selfish.  Maybe you'll like it, too:

"If an atheist pushes a child out of the road seconds before the child dies, knowing full well they will die in the process, that is unselfish."

How's that?

Thanks for an interesting read in the post,
Chris

[knightlight]

hahahah even the 7 layers thing is too mystical for me.  If you believe you will go up to god and see him, you will, dont worry.  Belief plays a huge part.  If you honestly believe you will go up to heaven and meet face to face with God himself, in all his cherubic love and power, than you will.  You can experience it now.  If I tried hard enough I could experience it tonight.  I dont want to take your dream away, but again, im on a bit of a different path than you.  

All the people who say when you die you will spend time in a lower plane, than move up or separate it into different sections obviously havent experienced it.  I would urge you, if there was a word more urgent than urge I would use it, urge you to explore the astral.  Dedicate your life to it.  It wont take that long, i promise!     If you set out to experience it and honestly put forth effort you will experience it.  Believe in it with your soul and persue it to your highest abilities.  

I would go to Astral FAQ's and look at Franks "what is phasing and how do i do it" thread, and also buy Astral Dynamics by robert bruce.  Franks approach doesnt even involve energy work or anything remotely mystical, and Robert Bruces approach is a bit more esoteric, but I experienced my first astral projection after reading his book and following his advice.  Once you enter the astral, your life will change.  It is honestly 100% mind blowing.  Have you ever read a book or watched a movie that just took your breath away and made you say "wow!  That was intense!"  You havent seen nothin' yet my friend.  With only your greatest good in mind I pray you take my advice.

[Seeker of Matter]

Hey Seeker,

Funny, but I had this exact same conversation with an atheist friend of mine a few years ago!  Usually he always sticks to his guns and stubbornly never shuts up until he's sure you've given up.  However, this time, and this time only, I made HIM think for a change about this concept of all actions being selfish.  Maybe you'll like it, too:

"If an atheist pushes a child out of the road seconds before the child dies, knowing full well they will die in the process, that is unselfish."

How's that?

Thanks for an interesting read in the post,
Chris

Yes i think that would be a very unselfish thing to do, if i understand it right!

"If an atheist pushes a child out of the road seconds before the child dies, knowing full well they will die in the process, that is unselfish."

do you by "out off the road" mean that they are on a bridge or something? and by "they" are you referring to both the child and the atheist or just children in general?
perhaps i do not understand it right, lol

Once you enter the astral, your life will change. It is honestly 100% mind blowing. Have you ever read a book or watched a movie that just took your breath away and made you say "wow! That was intense!" You havent seen nothin' yet my friend. With only your greatest good in mind I pray you take my advice.

I have tried, you must believe me i have!!! but after hours of just lying down relaxing and visualizing robes and ladders and balloons levitating, i don't feel anything. i can't even get to the state of vibrations!! i have never ever even felt vibrations.... i want astral project, but either i just can't or ells i am doing something terribly wrong!

i have even tried "The Gateway Experience", but that was no go either. i also find that i cannot do what the voice says (speaking of the voice, is that Robert Monroe himself speaking?). i definitely have a problem going from focus 10 to focus 12. "Feel your awareness expanding" how the %¤#¤%¤# can i make my awareness expand just like that? it gets frustrating. it is like telling you to get smarter "now you feel your IQ raising"

Perhaps it is because i am not as overly excited about it as i was a year ago when i first read about it not that i was able to do anything back then either....

when i get some money, i will definitely buy Robert's book!! i have been willing to for quite some time, but i cannot buy it in any Danish stores, so i have to order in from amazon, and then i have to pay for delivery and tax and so on, so it gets expensive!

[Ryu-Kanjin]

Hey Seeker, it is a very good idea to get Roberts book, it will help you a lot.

Iv read almost everything but the astral projection info. I will get into that when i have time to do it -_-.

When you do energy work, do all the steps slowly and carefully, or you will do something wrong or skip things completely. Also, when you start to do something, don't expect to do anything, don't get excited and loose your focus, and be as relaxed as possible. Basically, focus on what your doing and nothing els, brush your stray thoughts aside, if your body is relaxed, you wont need to move or itch lol so it will allow you to focus completely  

Now that i think of it.....its a meditation  

Dude, iv been meditating all this time and didn't know it lmao

[knightlight]

its a very involved and time consuming activity.  It took me about 3 months of practice every night for my first success, and ive been having lucid dreams my whole life and can remember my dreams easily, and dream almost every night, sometimes up to 3 times a night.  I understand your frustration, but practice makes perfect.  Its more about relaxation and I would avoid the CD's/tapes all together if they frustrate you so much.  Relax, and just let go, and if all else fails just take a nap and try again some other time.

[XenXheng]

do you by "out off the road" mean that they are on a bridge or something? and by "they" are you referring to both the child and the atheist or just children in general?
perhaps i do not understand it right, lol

Probably because I can't type and left too much out...  D'oh!

"If an atheist sees a truck barreling down on a child in the road, and pushes the kid out of the way knowing full well they will die in the process, that is selfless."

By the way, I know how frustrated you might be about the astral projection process.  I've tried it the past few days, trying to get myself back into the habit, and no amount of white light, balloons, elevators, ropes or water flowing through the body is leading anywhere besides slightly increased dream clarity.

Of course, that is the first step on the way there for me, and what happened before I projected five or so years ago.  It's just that this is one of those things that suddenly jumps you one day when you succeed, annoying as that is.

Lifting weights:  Lift 10 pounds today, 12 pounds tomorrow, 20 pounds next week, 100 pounds three months from now.

Measurable success.

Astral projection:  Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, succeed.

Surprising success!

Chris

[Tom]

One of my teachers told me this variation on a common expression: "There's a seeker born every minute". I thought he was just enjoying a joke at my expense. He was, but he had a good point.

When the mind is making something too complicated, take a break from it by relaxing and paying attention to the body for a while. No matter how bad your health is, if you look for it you can find some part of you which feels good or at minimum neutral. Focus on these neutral or positive feelings and they will expand slowly at first. You can even help them to expand to cover the entire body. I have used this method to stop the pain from the flu and from sinus infection after taking pills like tylenol or aspirin made no difference. The point is that if you trust your body and work with it you can give your mind a rest. When you go back to working with your problem, it will not be from the same "stuck" perspective. Just keep in mind that this is not an immediate cure. It could take days or weeks or months before you can return to working with your problem, if you have been struggling too long and you need the rest.

[Seeker of Matter]

do you by "out off the road" mean that they are on a bridge or something? and by "they" are you referring to both the child and the atheist or just children in general?
perhaps i do not understand it right, lol

Probably because I can't type and left too much out...  D'oh!

"If an atheist sees a truck barreling down on a child in the road, and pushes the kid out of the way knowing full well they will die in the process, that is selfless."

By the way, I know how frustrated you might be about the astral projection process.  I've tried it the past few days, trying to get myself back into the habit, and no amount of white light, balloons, elevators, ropes or water flowing through the body is leading anywhere besides slightly increased dream clarity.

Of course, that is the first step on the way there for me, and what happened before I projected five or so years ago.  It's just that this is one of those things that suddenly jumps you one day when you succeed, annoying as that is.

Lifting weights:  Lift 10 pounds today, 12 pounds tomorrow, 20 pounds next week, 100 pounds three months from now.

Measurable success.

Astral projection:  Fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, succeed.

Surprising success!

Chris

Yes it does make more sense now, but as far as i can see the fact that the atheist knows that they will both die in the process makes the action unselfish, but i would think of as the atheist just being plainly stupid... he will die and the boy will die that is stupid! perhaps stupid people are the only ones who are truly unselfish, interesting!

Well it seems that some people just have a natural ability to astral project, and others who are totally abandenend by that skill. i think that i am one of those people.
i do not even think that i am supposed to "AP", but then again, i don't think that there is anything that i am supposed to, not that i am aware of at least....

i do remember one time though. i must have been about 6 years old. i had just woken up early in the morning. i decided to go back to sleep because i was still tired. then i remember dreaming, not very clearly, but i remember speaking to this man and suddenly i became aware of that i was in a dream so i took him by the shoulders and shook him violently while i was shouting "it is just a dream, you are in a dream, it is just a dream" then i remember telling myself to wake up, and it was actually a bit difficult!! but i woke up and had some breakfast and never told anyone about.... before now :O

but that was the only time! nothing "mysterious" has ever happened to me. apart from that i have never ever experienced anything of the things discussed here, but i believe in it anyway, at least a little i see no reason why not to.

but i guess that i won't be having much of a change AP'ing in the near future, i just watched "The Exorcist" from 1972 and D@MN it is scary and it made me wonder, if there is such a thing as "God" or ones Higher Self or whatever it is called, would it not be logical if there was a absolute counterpart to that, something totally opposite? perhaps not an entity, but at least something very evil :O

stupid movie! i suppose i should have kicked myself as rented "Exorcist - The Beginning" now i am totally convinced of the existence of an ultimate evil entity. But i somehow like to get scared, i can't help it, it is scary.....

anyway i like your view on problems and how to deal with them Tom. But i do not think it will work on me.
in my way of thinking all problems require a amount of pain to resist in order to deal with them. at least problems here in the physical world.
i have come to that conclusion because I consider myself to have low pain resistance! i do not like to try too hard to do something i guess that this is the due to the low pain tolerance, i also think this is tied to motivation. well let me first come with my view on motivation then. if some i you have read my previous post "how to do something without a reason" i talk about that i have difficulty in motivation myself. i think that is because that motivation in it self a "pain-barrier-overcoming". at least it involves overcoming a pain barrier whether that barrier is physical or mental. pain is pain! i actually think it is a form of pain that prevents me from doing stuff(like doing my homework or taking a run or whatever). and motivation is the thing that push you into that pain which holds the task you are going to perform. and as i see it, the pain involved with doing something is always the same, it is just a matter of how pain resistant YOU are, as to why i can do many things without any trouble is because i have become immune to that pain (like  when i decide to move myself somewhere, i just do it, because whatever small amount of pain required to resist or overcome in order to that does not affect me). lol i am sounding like a sick sadomasochist huh?

well it is just a theory that seems to apply from MY point of view to the aspects of "doing", maybe you see it from somewhere ells, and i know i am going to get the "wtf are you talking about you freak?" hmm, i guess that would be something to expect. well i will try to explain again then

This has nothing to do with me loving pain. and do not think about the pain you get when you fall or burn yourself. i actually don't really know what to call it, so i thought that it had to be some sort of "pain". well what do you call the thing that makes you not want to do something, there must be some sort of obstacle otherwise i would have done much of what i want now!! hmm perhaps it is a fear, a fear for what? for pain maybe? therefore i stick to the pain concept

well, my experience is that if i do not keep on trying to solve a problem, i do not get i solved. that might be because my way of doing things differs much form the way that you do things. but again i like your idea, but i have just experiences that say something ells.

EDIT: corrected the most severe errors in my post

[Tom]

Learning to relax and let go is the most difficult thing you can attempt. I can understand why you don't think you can do it.

[RD]

Have you considered regular exercise programs like lifting weights? That has got to be the stupidest thing anyone can do.

I don't feel like reading this whole topic right now, so I don't know if anyone said this already, but I really think your reply is actually the most stupidest post I've read so far.

Lifting weights, without exaggerating ofcourse, is actually very good for your muscles and bones. Especially because modern man is not living a physically active life. Working with weights is a good compensation.

Please educate yourself before making these kind of statements: muscles & bones SCREAM for some exercise!

[Tom]

Congratulations on missing my point: you do not lift weights in order to get good at lifting them and you do not do it because the weights need a change of scenery. It is the same with energy work. I could also say that the point of learning a musical instrument is to play songs and it would not make sense to say that music is only playing the scales.

[greatoutdoors]

Tom, you make a great deal of sense!

Seeker, I think I know where you're coming from when you say virtually everything is selfish. But I think you misunderstand where selfishness becomes a bad thing. Selfishness is a living organism's urge to survive. Plants are selfish -- invasive grass chokes out less competitive plants. The grass doesn't care about the well being of  other plants. That's selfish. Does the grass "sin" in its unadulterated selfishness? I don't know. Selfishly, that's not my problem.  

But humans think, not merely react, and therefore choose their level of selfishness. That creates "sin." (my own opinion) If it gives me pleasure to run a currycomb over a horse that's losing its winter hair, that selfishiness is not "bad"! And if, by enjoying the act of currying the horse, I also give pleasure to the horse, then it's "good" -- at least to the horse.    What I'm trying to say is the sin is not in being selfish, it's in how we handle that emotion, the choices we make.

You may want to consider whether you are just overthinking the situation. Truth is more likely to be simple than complex, in this girl's opinion.    And my simple solution to a crisis of the conscious: If it harms no living thing, it's okay; if it brings pleasure to other living beings, then it's even better!

And what greatly lifts my spirit is the things you say that make you happy, like children playing and laughing. i hope that i some day will learn to see the beauty in that too and be happy just because of that. i find happiness hard do achieve when you have critical mind. so when you say that you too are a scientist at hart, and that you manages to stay happy anyway, well that is impressive.

Have you never stood outside on a blustery day, watching roiling clouds shift from silver to gray, with the wind trying to pick you up and take you with it, and never felt your spirits lift?! Have you never had a dog dance enthusiastically around you when you set down its food, then felt a smile through your whole body as that friend dives into her dinner?! Can you think of nothing that, just for the pure pleasure of it, makes you feel good?! If that is true, you sincerely have my pity, for you must be supremely unhappy.

i have even tried "The Gateway Experience", but that was no go either. i also find that i cannot do what the voice says (speaking of the voice, is that Robert Monroe himself speaking?). i definitely have a problem going from focus 10 to focus 12. "Feel your awareness expanding" how the %¤#¤%¤# can i make my awareness expand just like that? it gets frustrating. it is like telling you to get smarter "now you feel your IQ raising"

Here I can totally understand your frustration. Enough things have happened to me to convince me of the reality of out of body experiences and telepathy. (I won't repeat them here, no need to bore you). But I, too, am stuck with the inability to achieve anything "on command." All I can say is to just keep plugging.

[Joe Samsen]

According to all the world's mystical tradtions, esoteric energy work in one form or another is absolutely required in order to evolve.  After all, what is the simplest, most basic definition of energy?  The capacity to do work.  Not the capacity to be happy or the capacity to be successful, powerful, etc,. but the capacity to do work.  Saying that you have more energy is simply saying that you have more capacity to do work.  Whether you actually do the work is another matter, but you have the capacity.  This is where esoteric energy has its place of importance in remote viewing, astral travel, paranormal phenomina, etc.  The more energy you have, the more capacity you have to do these things.

[Seeker of Matter]

Seeker, I think I know where you're coming from when you say virtually everything is selfish. But I think you misunderstand where selfishness becomes a bad thing. Selfishness is a living organism's urge to survive. Plants are selfish -- invasive grass chokes out less competitive plants. The grass doesn't care about the well being of other plants. That's selfish. Does the grass "sin" in its unadulterated selfishness? I don't know. Selfishly, that's not my problem.  

I guess that you might be right.... Very right actually! I guess that it is because that I am frustrated with the fact I am not able to find any so called "ultimate truths" to hold on to. What is selfishness and when does it become bad. I guess I could also ask when a hole is a hole? Is it when it has a depth of 30 centimetres and a diameter of 1 meter? Or must it be at the size of a cup, or a meteor crash? Nobody really knows when a hole is a hole and we will never find an answer to that question. So the way that I see it, in order for me to live with it, I might have to go with Knighlight's solution: there is no hole. Or to be more relevant, there is no such thing as selfishness, only ways to survive, which sometimes must include the sacrificing of other things in order to insure your own survival. like your said greatoutdoors. Like when the grass chokes the weaker plants though it cannot be called selfish, that wouldn't be fair to grass (lol). The grass was here long before us and our definitions of what is what, and no such thing as selfish exists for the grass, nor does the grass exist, nothing is, that is all an illusion, and illusion needed for man to better "understand" the world. Hmmm I guess you were right Knightlight... or ells it is just me getting carried away by the moment and R.E.M. I might snap out of it in a moment!

But if nothing exists, what is the point of trying to understand anything. The concept of understanding must also be false, as understanding is a measure to understand the labels and definitions, then it is not needed. Hmm

But then what about happiness, does that also not exist? Is happiness not just also a definition? Then if I now realise that noting is. What is then the thing that I, in confusion, am banging my head into? It feels real enough... hmm well, I guess I better study Buddhism some more

Have you never stood outside on a blustery day, watching roiling clouds shift from silver to gray, with the wind trying to pick you up and take you with it, and never felt your spirits lift?! Have you never had a dog dance enthusiastically around you when you set down its food, then felt a smile through your whole body as that friend dives into her dinner?! Can you think of nothing that, just for the pure pleasure of it, makes you feel good?! If that is true, you sincerely have my pity, for you must be supremely unhappy.

well I find that it is mostly the actors in films that seem to be happy about something like that. It is like birdsong, birdsong has never been meant to make humans happy, it is in reality just those h0rny birds trying to attract a mate, it is actually a competition where the h0rniest bird wins lol yeah you must flame me for writing that, I deserve it  

Well if I must seem ignorant again I think that the reason why such things as a cool breeze has a good effect on humans in because of what we connect with it. the wind will make us happy because it has a nice effect on our body and the brain released chemicals that make you happy, okay? Well again this is not an ultimate truth. The wind is not good in it self, it is what we connect with it that might be, but mostly because of the effect it has on our body, yes read that sentence again!!! (I think that this is important so please follow me on this one!). well what if when the Jews were shot by the Nazis during 2nd World War there was this same cool wind every time the Nazis were coming, then the Jews would fear that wind like nothing ells!
I guess that is why I do not really think so much about a cool wind, it does not really mean anything to me so I do not get overly exited when it is windy, actually... I get sick when it is VERY windy. The last time we had a nasty storm over Denmark, I was lying in bed hallucinating with my blood boiling at 40 degrees Celsius. Not cool!

Greatoutdoors, I think that you might have many great experiences in the nature (hence the name I guess) and therefore you become happy when the nature is "alive" so to speak.

And what was my point now... uhm....

EDIT: ahh i know, don't feel pity for me because i do not find the same happiness in doing/seeing the things that you connect with happiness, it is all subjective!

[knightlight]

the point I was trying to make wasnt that nothing exists, at first during my beginning stages of buddhist mental revolution I thought this was so as well.  Things do exist, but not from their own side.  There is no emotion, no pain.  Everything is a label, made up of aggregates.  Like I am Knightlight, but where is knightlight?  is it my arm? my mind?  no.  I am knightlight who is made up of tissue, skin, brain matter, etc.  That is made up of cells which are made up of atoms that are made up of infinitely small particles and down into things we cant even see.  Therefor I am not knightlight, it is only a label.  I exist, but the labels that you use to identify me arent real.

Can you see the space that seperates your arm from the air next to it?  There is no gap.  You are one with the air and everything around you.  You are part of one gigantic living breathing existance that goes even beyond our own galaxy.

Things do exist.  The labels are the illusion.  Look around you.  Erase your labels.  Look at your monitor, but dont see it as a monitor, just see it!!!  Look around you, see all that sorrounds you, and see the space that fills the area between.  Both are just as solid and present.  Without the space, what is solid would not exist.  Now still your mind, erase your thoughts and become one with what sorrounds you.  Realize that you are part of a massive existant multiverse.  Makes you feel a bit small doesnt it?  

I would urge you to explore buddhism, even just in a pragmatic fashion, not necessarily to have it dominate your spiritual path.  I am pragmatic as well and took more away from buddhism than I could have ever wished for.  I have applied it to life, released my attachments to this existance and have freedom beyond what most people can ever imagine.

[Seeker of Matter]

Thank you very much for making that clear! I had a feeling that I was exaggerating... it is of course only the labels that do not exist, this makes the whole world seem a bit more sane.

Can you see the space that seperates your arm from the air next to it? There is no gap. You are one with the air and everything around you. You are part of one gigantic living breathing existance that goes even beyond our own galaxy.

Things do exist. The labels are the illusion. Look around you. Erase your labels. Look at your monitor, but dont see it as a monitor, just see it!!! Look around you, see all that sorrounds you, and see the space that fills the area between. Both are just as solid and present. Without the space, what is solid would not exist.

Didn't you just say that there was no space separating my arm from the air? Then what do you mean "without the space, what is solid would not exist" you just made me believe that everything was connected and there was no space..... argh, I wish my brain would connect better with it self so I would avoid this constant stream of misunderstandings.

Well thank you letting me know that things exist

And I might just look into Buddhism when I get some spare time! I guess it will be worth it.

[greatoutdoors]

Hi Seeker,

On Knightlight's comment, what he said was that you can't see the space that separates your arm from the air next to it. Just as you can't see the space that separates each and every cell of your arm. I'm getting a little off topic here, but he is saying what physicists are also beginning to discuss. 90% or more of everything in our physical world is space! Theoretically, and maybe factually, there is nothing stopping us from being able to walk through walls except our perception of solidity. I totally agree with Knightlight's thoughts, though I don't accept all of Buddism's tenants.

My examples of enjoying wind, etc. were not meant to be limiting -- and I can certainly understand you not being thrilled about something that makes you sick!    My point was that you are not being, for lack of a better concept, destructively selfish, by enjoying pleasurable things. Like your birds. Of course they aren't singing for human's benefit; they have no interest in us so long as we leave them in peace. They are behaving selfishly!   But it's not "selfish" of us to enjoy the singing. My rules again: it harms nothing and brings pleasure -- therefore it's on the "good" side of the ledger.

Now, as to the existence of emotions...
Consider that everything we think and feel originates from electrical (or energetic) impulses moving through our brain. Destroy the pathways those impulses travel, or take away the impulses, and you do, indeed, have nothing! So in that sense, you are correct. However, that doesn't negate the reality of the emotion! How's that for a cunnundrum!  

A good physical example is your hand. Look at it. Move your fingers. Then consider that just a small injury to a nerve (or a local anesthetic for that matter), well above your hand, could make it impossible for you to move it, in spite of your best efforts. You are trying to understand the energy that makes us who we are, as I am. So far, I've had no success, mainly due to my own lack of commitment. But the good news is, no one else in the world understands it much better than we do. The only thing I can be certain of is that the energy that powers us is real. As to belief, I believe our energy is part and parcel of the same energy that permeates everything in the universe -- it's just being expressed as "us." What happens when we die -- does that energy dissipate into the energy sea, losing any sense of self, or does it remain aware like so many would like to think? That's a mystery we will likely never solve.

Last point -- just be able to find happiness somewhere, in something that causes no harm to other beings. I have a bretty bleak view of the world and everything in it, but still find those moments I mentioned. That's all we can count on. And if death brings a final end, that's not the worst of all possible worlds!

[Souljah333]

i've been hanging out at cassiopeia.org and reading a lot of channeled material. too much to sum up here, but you might find it interesting.

there was one thing that i found interesting that i was reading last night in reference to your question. the woman laura that does the channeling is always seeking the secrets to enlightenment (to skip steps), but the ones coming through won't give those answers. they used the analogy referring to the shift between 3rd and 4th density. they asked her where one goes after they finish 3rd grade. she answered 4th. they asked her if it was necessary for the person to know all about 4th grade in order to move up. she said no that you only have to finish all the lessons of 3rd grade to move up to 4th. they said...correct! you only have to finish your lessons HERE! of course all information should be taken with a grain of salt, but sometimes i also wonder if it's as spiritual as people make it out to be?!? that is isn't just a way of escaping and skipping 3rd density lessons.

333