dangerous to astral project, obe, and or phase?

[Froglet]

Hello,

a friend and I went to talk to a psycic today.  I talked to her for a while about astral projecting and other things like that.  I told her how I was trying to obe or astral project ( I've been trying to phase lately) but I used those other terms because that is probably what she would know... but she said I should use "protection" or tools to protect myself I guess from negs.  She told me about these different things like water and candle and salt but I was wondering what anyone on these forums would thing about this... I don't know too much about astral protection or anything like that because I've been under the impression that likes attract likes as Mr. Monroe says in his books so I simply have and still kinda think that because of the way that I am ... I may not be a big magnet for negs.... any thoughts would be appreciated.

if this is this the wrong place it would be ok to put it in a different spot.
Thanks
James

[knightlight]

Through my experience whatever you think will happen in F2 will happen.  If you think you will project and be surrounded by demons waiting to sever your limbs and sodomize you it will happen.  If you think you will meet God and commune with the higher forces, you will.  F2 is whatever you make it out to be.  I have no experience beyond F2, but with experience inside F2 for me came an understanding that it is shaped entirely by you.  Today I flew about in a place much like my apartment complex, but whatever my mind made it out to be.  I channeled energy from the sun, harassed copies of my roommates, and saw a dog I had when I was 12, which I attribute to my subconscious.  

The real variable is indeed your subconscious.  

If your subconscious mind, through what it has stored from reading things about AP and talking to people about AP is filled with negs and demons and self defense, then you will be, at least at first, attacked by things created only in your subconscious expectations.  I started on this path myself, but the more I told myself that I was in control, the more alive and welcoming it became, entirely shaped by my thoughts and perceptions of it.  Dont let the new age mystical muppets who are stuck in the old school ways of AP tell you what to think of it, experience it for yourself and come to your own conclusions!!!!

Best of luck!  

[Froglet]

Hi knightlight,

Honestly I kinda had that exact thinking in mind when I listened to her.... and that led me to be a little skeptical.  But I'm still would like to see what other posters thing

James

[Frank]

Hi:

The BIG problem has been that in the past people were thinking they were projecting into a different kind of world or "astral realm". We now know there are 4 primary areas of consciousness and the one next door to the physical, in a manner of speaking, where most people are doing their "astral projecting", is in fact your own individual area of mind.

Mystics in the past have talked about this "place" as having a kind of Alice in Wonderland effect, where all your thoughts come to life and so forth. Problem is, they never seemed to question it any further than that by asking the question of WHY all your thoughts came to life. Well, as I say, we now know that you are actually projecting within your own area of mind. This means as you believe then so it becomes, literally. So if you subscribe to all the notions of demons and dragons and such like, then demons and dragons you shall perceive. Because it's your own area of mind you are projecting into.

Whatever you believe then that's what you will perceive simply because you are perceiving your own beliefs. Any kind of notion of "protection" is merely a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you believe that performing some kind of "protection ritual" will protect you then protection you will receive. Problem is, one of the core mistakes people make is they objectify everything.

Yours,
Frank

[kajaLove]

So how do you protect yourself from your subconscious mind ( besides the usual "think good thoughts" solution ) ?
Also,would that mean that in fact there really is no astral wildlife in lower astral and thus when robert bruce talks about it , he is perhaps confusing the entities he sees as something living independently when in truth it's just his mind playing tricks on him ( I hope I get an answer on this one ) ?

[Souljah333]

this is the third time i've come back to this post...something wishing me to reply. i'm only choosing this post bcuz it's current, and it is in-keeping with the "general" mentality here. i look and this is what i see (face value): a lot of people interested in attaining/attuning to particular powers that be, but in a completely self-absorbed, fast-food type "need" for something that immediately behooves them...raises them up a level on some cosmic ladder of intelligence and ability. basically people wanting to subscribe to a QUICK & PAINLESS method of spirituality. i don't fault anyone for being naive, but there are dangers to this approach that are difficult to explain. when you put your faith into the mainstream, when you are willing to be "initiated" into the "secret knowledge" at a price & worst at no-cost to yourself as far as energy is concerned you will most definitely come up short-handed and worse for wear. many come here seeking advice and answers. much energy put into the search, less energy put into the offerings, and even less put into the digestion and utilization of what is received. i can't help but say this worries me...although i must remain objective for everyone has their lessons.

i have no reservations in pointing out that i'm uncomfortable in taking something as limitless as the astral and building a construct round it, applying rules and regulations, levels and borders into it. i understand where the 3-D, linear mind is the tool @ hand, but we suffer enough with the black & white ways of this world. why do people insist on dragging that baggage into the astral and using it as the definitive road-map?

whether people are traversing their subconscious, or an unknown realm outside themselves...which has a heavy border here @ AP...why must the direction always be "useful"? why do people feel they need to "protect" themselves? why are "attacks" viewed as negative and off-track???

"attacks" are both lessons AND initiations! if the universe is balanced, as we are told, and which seems to be self-evident upon deep reflection, then it is almost necessary to experience both aspects in any learning experience. it is what you DO with the "attacks" that makes them either lessons from which you learn, or troubles from which you suffer. and it is in this sense that awareness plays the major role of transforming attacks into lessons; awareness being the thing that you acquire with knowledge, which then enables you to see the realities behind the (symbol) system, so that you can choose the most "harmonious" option of those presented to you in the masked reality in which we live and travel.

attacks don't always come in dark shadows and scaled-blood thirsty beasts...sometimes they come with smiles, and pats on the back and little certificates of accomplishment with gold stickers!!! (and they are VERY heavy lessons indeed!!!)

Mystics in the past have talked about this "place" as having a kind of Alice in Wonderland effect, where all your thoughts come to life and so forth. Problem is, they never seemed to question it any further than that by asking the question of WHY all your thoughts came to life. Well, as I say, we now know that you are actually projecting within your own area of mind. This means as you believe then so it becomes, literally. So if you subscribe to all the notions of demons and dragons and such like, then demons and dragons you shall perceive. Because it's your own area of mind you are projecting into.

first i wonder how people are SO SURE this is THEIR OWN mind at work?
second...(who's-ever mind it is) everything is a manifestation of it! In the physical, the astral, the subconscious...whichever. why is there a lack of interest in what our so-called "subconscious" (or for that matter conscious) mind manifests here in the physical? what are the lessons in that??? and people tripping on into the astral to find the BIG answers there, that they seemingly wish to apply to here without doing the lessons ...and what is all this "pot of gold" stuff?!?
what is that?!!? all cherry cokes and ice cream sundaes...all glittering little puff of truth, wrapped in diamond-encrusted spiritual easter-baskets, delivered by those who REALLY care. i don't know about anyone else, but i just find that insulting, and the repetition of it nauseating. anyone that lives in this physical, mortal world knows in their heart that this is not the path. there is no skipping lessons period! no one special enough to by-pass the tosh...for the reward is not at the end of the rainbow, the secret is not in turning the lead into gold. that is not the wants of the human condition...that is what we have been PROGRAMMED to DESIRE. to LEAD US ASTRAY and away from true POWERS.

how does anyone know that this physical world is not a PROJECTION, and that the demons and dragons are part a truer reality!?!
there is a drastic lesson in being gullible, delivered by very impressive shirts with all the answers. a lesson never to be forgotten.

i doubt that anything i say is going to hit anyone hard enough to look around...and rightfully so. it is not my place to impose my reality...it's just that what comes along the path that feels right, looks right and seems right...doesn't have anything to do with the PATH. and even though i quickly lose steam in trying to put these things into words...i felt pressure to do so. SO I DID. just ramblings...nothing more.

333

[knightlight]

good post souljah.  In regards to kajas post, you dont have to protect yourself from yourself in my opinion.  During an AP session I not only was attacked by something that practically ripped one of my legs off but also later went back and found a knife and cut myself to ribbons but wasnt harmed in any way physically.  I hold no real attachment to this physical existence so losing it isn't too frightening to me and I am willing to try anything in the astral.  From my experience, you cant get hurt.  Its just my experience and shouldn't be taken as gospel, but I don't fear anything in the astral.  I'm sure plenty of people will tell you otherwise, but having people tell you isn't anything compared to experiencing it yourself.  Go for the gusto and just do it and figure it out for yourself.

[Frank]

Souljah:

More and more people are now actually experiencing the truth for themselves. As they do so the old pardigms will give way to the new. I guess we are used to all this change in terms of new and faster computers and mobile phones with yet more features. Computer games ever more sophisticated and so on. But non-physical reality technology has been a bit in the doldrums until about 15 years ago and it has finally started to take off. In these times of fast changing circumstances, it is only natural that many, unfortunately still the majority, are transfixed by the outgoing paradigm. It's the same with any new technology.

Yours,
Frank

[Frank]

Kaja:

I'm not sure why anyone would need protecting against their own mind. Perhaps they should maybe change their beliefs on some things so they view different constructs if they feel that is necessary in terms of their experience. Or not if they wish to continue. If people feel they are being attacked and so forth then we have a section for that in the PSD forum.

No one's mind can possibly play tricks on them. To accept that is to accept that a person's mind can exist independently and in contradiction to the person in question. Problem is, to the mystics it would appear that everything that is non-physical is therefore "astral" and in their terms is a separate place. They haven't yet come up to speed on the fact that we now know there are 4 primary areas in consciousness and each area has different characteristics and so forth.

This is a fast-changing technology. Anything published 5 years ago is old news already. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to publish in eBook format. So I could keep up to date with even my own developments. With my very latest work in making inroads into Focus 4, I have made developments now to the extent where if I had published a book on my Focus 4 experiences 6 months ago I'd want to scrap it already.

Yours,
Frank

[Souljah333]

No ones mind can possibly play tricks on them. To accept that is to accept that a person's mind can exist independently and in contradiction to the person in question.

still waiting for someone to reply on the Q: how can anyone say for absolute certainty that their mind is their own? and i would have to disagree with the above quote...i think our minds play tricks all the time. not that the mind is playing a tricks on the person per say, but on itself as a form of self-testing. plus you don't exist if not for your mind...the mind is really all there is. so as one can easily say the person and the mind are one (which is true in a sense). the person being only a physical manifestation/representation OF the mind can also look from the other end of the binoculars and say that the mind can in fact exist anyway it likes without any real concern for the physical images it projects.

i think this goes back to my above post. where i feel the majority of people are stuck in the image of the "self/I" and lose perspective of their limitless mind. everything viewed from a physical perspective. i would also like to add something about "conditioning" & "programming", but i need to think about that more before i end up with both feet in my mouth.
333

i understand what you meant and in a larger sense i feel this to be true, but once again...i think there is a certain strength is coming round full circle with this. in the lessons that lead to this ultimate power of unifying the mind. without the lessons of knowing what tricks the mind IS capable of playing...the student is weak...and worse...lacking in COMPLETE RESPECT for that power.

i don't think anyone would argue the fact that our technology has surpassed our function...and although there's always room for newer, quicker, more hands-on techniques when it comes to everything. i would stress caution in "these" new methods only bcuz no one knows for sure what they're getting themselves into when they're inexperienced. like going on a blind-date with the handsome, well-to-do bachelor that everyone raves about...only to find out he's a rapist. not the same thing at all, but a dramatized explanation regarding rushing into something you have little-to-no idea about, nor the energies behind it. i thinks that's just common sense. i'd have no problem with new technologies if i saw more of a demonstration of common sense. i know a good deal about tools and equipment...and i know it's a huge market with lots of new, great, handy gadgets on the shelves everyday...still nothing works as well as the very first and simple few. the wedge, the wheel, the hoist, etc.

[Frank]

Souljah:

For someone to say that their mind was not their own would be a contradiction in terms. You cannot claim with any degree of rationality that your mind is not your mind.

These kinds of questions and answers have nothing to do with the wider reality, they are simple questions of logical analysis. The foundations of which have been established for a long while.

Yours,
Frank

[Froglet]

Howdy,

that's really alot of what I've thought all along Major Tom.  Which is why when I was listening to what she said I just kinda heard what she said and then kinda questioned her response.  But since I've not had a great amount of experience and all, which I wish I did, I figured asking people here would be a good idea.  Actually, I think this is kinda like some game I played once... it was supposed to be some sort of mental game and I was good at it... or it was just natural for me to be able to do it.  yet it wasn't until my friend said that sometimes it doesn't do exactly what you want it to... after that I messed up a little.  I then realized that if I just ignored that thought and went on with my business I could achieve the goal easily.  So is my reasoning behind this whole "protection" and the fact that I feel I don't need or want any of what she described.... sounded all a bit too mystical to me anyways.  I'm honestly more interested in the "scientific" type approach to all of this.  

James

[Ta_alos]

Good day,
       I seems for something so natural. Astral projection is or can be a very complicated process to learn.  Depending on what you believe or not about re-incarnation.  It would seem plausable that depending on what has happened and where your soul is in terms of its grandest experience and individual may or may not possess more of a natural ability.
        Some individuals will say that you need protection, others will say that you do not.  It is the opinion of this humble traveller that it all depends on the scenario.  There are always unseen forces at work. Whether good or bad they will teach us something...
         If you are experiencing neg-related problems then I'd say protection is wise.  If you are not, then I would not worry about it.  If you do follow the theorums involving that we always have the 'master copy' safely nested in side of us.  You can feel safe that even if by some mystical Occult spell your projected double were destoryed... You'd always have the master.
         Just remember. We are in a repressive soceity.  It would seem logical that this repression is also taken into the astral.  There are many powerful and secret orginizations out there... Neg's slow down your progress... so do they... is this simply coincidence??? Answers are up to you.

[knightlight]

I am seeing there is 2 sides to the world of ap divided by belief in negs.  I have been plagued by what neg believers would label psychic attack for most of my life, but ever since I tossed the idea aside that I can actually be harmed I have come to find these incidences rather amusing. Before they where traumatizing and horrific.  Just last night I awoke paralyzed, being held down by invisible hands I could feel and I looked to my right and saw an eye floating in the air about 3 feet away from me.  I looked at it and raised an eyebrow and said "yes?" and it just stayed there.  I squirmed a bit and tried to move but its grip hadn't lessened.  I said "if your going to stand around and keep me from sleeping at least materialize some tits for me to look at!" and it went away.  I'm not sure if it was my mind producing it, if I was having an overlay experience or if it actually was a "neg", but I didn't jump to conclusions and freak out, causing the events to get worse like I used to.  Its all in how you perceive it, and I have never once in my life been harmed by "negs".  Sure, I have been tortured and electrocuted with vibrations and forced to see incredibly horrible things, but only in F2 or through overlay experiences, and I have always woken up, no worse for wear aside from being a bit shaken by the experience.  Ever since I started taking the above approach and gotten over my gut instinct to freak out, my attacks have lessened and the severity pale in comparison to before.  I just take it as something I must go through if I want to keep my ability to AP/phase/whatever it really is.  

Any time I have freaked out and felt it would get worse, it did, and once your fear turns to terror your in for something you wont forget.

[Froglet]

perhaps the only thing to fear is fear itself in this instance.

[Telos]

I haven't had much concrete success in my endeavors, but readers of this thread may benefit from a retelling of an attempt to diagnose my inability to achieve certain objectives. One unanswered question I focused on was, "how and why do I dream?" Not understanding the mechanics animating any reality means not understanding the reality. That is the intention behind the following experience (probably F3oC).

I phase-shifted and found myself in a dream, at first very weary and lethargic. I stumbled, intending to ask important questions about dreaming. More lucid, I found myself standing next to a simple wooden chair, a table, and across the table sat a popular New Age author (actually, aren't they all?). He smiled his a-course-in-miracles-love-binds-the-universe-buy-my-book-to-be-happy smile, saying, "how can I help you?" Reflexively, I was about to sit down and ask a question.

Then I said, "No," getting up and turning away. I despised this author. This was why I was dreaming in first place. I wouldn't be here if I thought I could find answers in a book. "I'll ask the dream."

After a pause, I looked slightly upward, and asked the dream, "how is it that I dream?" In tandem, "Why (do I dream one dream and not another)?" It was a loaded question, but I was prepared for anything.

The dream cleared with that lucid glow, while the walls around me changed. I was in a castle, perhaps, medieval wood furnishings and illuminating by torch light. In front of me was an inviting circular staircase. As I walked upwards, I noticed a change in air, as if the castle was on a large mountain and I was ascending up through the clouds.

An older-looking man sat near a fireplace in a humble sort of chair, but plush with hay. I walked over to him and started to sit, waiting for him to say something. Nothing. Except perhaps a little rumble; a low vibration moving the dream. What kind of answer is this, I thought.

"Are you listening?" he said.

Noticing I was momentarily distracted, I felt I missed a lesson.

"No. I am sorry. But I'm listening now."

Then the rumbling grew louder, gradually stronger, and closer, it focused behind me. I turned around and stepped back quickly. A short young woman in a black robe, with goth-ish hair and features, displaying a sinister animalistic being, approached the old man.

I waited to see what he would do. If he was any at all wise, he would defeat her in some clever way, and then we would get on with the lesson. She hissed scathing, and he looked surprisingly frightened. Quickly, she began to eat him, horrifically. He didn't even have time to scream, her ingestion was so efficient. Then she turned towards me.

Although never afraid for my well-being, knowing it was a dream, I was still shocked. In truth I was afraid of something far worse - that of not learning something, or not being able to learn something, for this was really a genuine attempt for wisdom. And if I did not leave with something, I would be very sad.

Perhaps if I did not provoke her she would not attack. I waited.

Then she lunged at me. I flew back and up, and flung a force wave upon her. She fell back to the floor. As she was getting up for another lunge, growling, I noticed her intense hunger. She was weak. Here she was, after devouring a man almost twice her size, and she was still starving. She even looked thinner than before, more impoverished and in more pain, like a ragged child of a homeless family.

Evil was weakness.

Showing her blood curdling fangs, she lunged at me again with more force. But with devastating means I struck her, my shin in her face, spinning her like a rag doll as she fell to the floor again, gasping.

Before she could get up again, I grabbed the rims of her clothes, and flung her out of the castle firmly and decisively. As she descended through the clouds, I flew after her with fierce speed, and hauled her towards the ground faster than gravity would allow. Like a bullet, she smashed through the rough terrain, pulverizing the soil, her body driven deep into the Earth.

When I hit terra firma, immediately thereafter, I awoke. It was the most serene I had felt in years.

[EDIT: Before you call me a Nazi, just because I said "evil is weakness" doesn't necessarily mean that weakness is evil (although in higher FoC it's probably just as corrupting)]

[mindseye]

souljah i have a question for you.
What is 333?

[kajaLove]

Kaja:

I'm not sure why anyone would need protecting against their own mind. Perhaps they should maybe change their beliefs on some things so they view different constructs if they feel that is necessary in terms of their experience. Or not if they wish to continue. If people feel they are being attacked and so forth then we have a section for that in the PSD forum.


Yours,
Frank

I'd like a definitive answer on that ! In your opinion , besides people that passed away ( and besides the fact that lots of so called attacks are just your mind manifesting your thoughts ), are there actual entities (as in negs) living in astral or whatever you call it , and are some of those negs sometimes responsible for attacks on projectors ? I'm only asking what you believe it to be frank and nothing else

[Souljah333]

souljah i have a question for you. what is 333?

whatever you want it to be.

has anyone ever heard of the "scientific" tests done with children of severe abuse...where when they are placed in an unfamiliar or threatening environment...they will recede to the parent that abuses them (for safety)?!
it's an alpha-protection thing/also a familiarity thing. they feel MOST comfortable with what they are familiar with, even though it is detrimental to their well-being. where i try to open up the lines of thought for flexibility and flow, it's odd that in a round about way this can actually work in the opposite manner to re-confirm what is familiar and well-accepted.

i think about people i know that are addicted to sugar. they don't think so...it's only a "preference" of a "refinement" of sorts, but they constantly reach for the sweetest treats available. if i offer them fruit (a NATURAL sweet) they look at me like i'm nuts. to me it's all sweet, but to different degrees...to them it's two completely different things, but where i would admit that both correct.  they would insist "i" was wrong...and something in that little observation is reflected here.

froglet (james):
when you posted "she/her" was that in reference to me?!?

i might have not made it clear in my original post that i wasn't attempting to answer YOUR questions. i was merely using your thread for my own personal observations, etc. if you're looking for answers there are plenty of other people that will be glad to "help"...as has already been demonstrated.

i've just been thinking a good deal about "attraction/retraction" whatever that action is that causes the majority of people to reach for something that appeals to them/seems easy/quick/convenient/etc, and avoid the opposite..and in the process be completely convinced that this is correct. that what they "desire" is ultimately good, and what leads directly there is the best course of action.

anyway...
i was was merely speaking out loud and in no way was i concerned with whether or not i was selling you on my ideas. if my goal was to manipulate you i would have been more subtle.  
i would have told you what you wanted to hear.

in reference to your post then i will say this.
i have LOTS of experience in obe's/ap...and neg's and i have never found candles, holy water, sea salt, etc to work...and as far as like attracting like which might behoove you to hold onto if you "think" you're a good person...however in scientific/practical terms (which you said is where your interest lies) i believe magnetically that opposites attract.
plus i know many people that suffer attacks and they're the nicest, kindest, most understanding and open-minded people i've had the pleasure to meet, but of course that's only my opinion.

333

[Froglet]

Hello Souljah 333,

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear when I was saying "she/her" I meant the lady I had talked to from around where I live.  That's why I started this post. but I would say that you're probably right about opposites but I'm not worried about it myself... I simply asked to see what people had to say about it   .  I do listen to people but I try to run it through my reasoning before I accept it.  and since I'm still realitively new to all of this.  I figure I would ask people more experienced.  besides I got a partial answer to this post in a dream before I started seeing people respond.  

James

[Souljah333]

FRANK,
i'm not sure you answered my question either about how you know for sure that your mind is your own?!? maybe it was over my head, but i think you danced around the question. i mean...windows might be your operating system, but what about all the little trojan/spy programs that are planted in the back and carry out a completely different function USING the same hard-drive?!? something along those line...i think you know what i'm getting at.

also...

More and more people are now actually experiencing the truth for themselves.

THAT HAS TO BE THE MOST BIZARRE THING I'VE HEARD ON THIS SITE.
i just keep re-reading it, and it's very, very disturbing.
333

FROGLET: okay...thought you meant me . good. GOOD...as long as you keep flipping it over, and tossing it around, and take time not to rush into anything...i am not worried for you either. not in the least. GOOD.
EXCELLENT!

[Froglet]

if I may ask, why would experiencing what is truth disturbing?

[Souljah333]

you have to read it again. slowly. bit by bit.
not to say that it isn't possible that it wasn't exactly what he meant, but...

i myself find it disturbing (that's the only word i can think of) that someone would ACTUALLY say
"more & more people are NOW...ACTUALLY.....EXPERIENCING ..................."THE TRUTH"...................................FOR THEMSELVES!

what were they doing before?

and i guess the part that disturbs me most...is the point of reference for the comment. someone saying it would have to be standing in "the truth" in order to make a judgment like that.

what will disturb me more...is if i'm the only person that see this.

333

[Tombo]

how can anyone say for absolute certainty that their mind is their own?

I would try to answer if you can define "mind" and "I" and "own"

[Souljah333]

exactly!