NOT everyone

[runlola]

 

[James S]

I've heard something like this before... when I was in church.

I don't see it as being possible. I see our soul as being that part of us that makes us alive - it is our life force.

"Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul."

When you see a young child cross over, a child who could not possibly know what this means, you know it makes no sense.

An odd idea!  

Blessings,
James.

[Kris]

how do i become awakened?

[PassiveFist]

None of us have 'souls'. 'We' are just a result of the physical processes in our body. As modern neuroscience and buddhism say, there is no 'self' except the story we concoct with our thoughts. There is no death because all that exists is the NOW, future and past don't exist, we don't experience the moment of death (being dead and all). There is no eternal life though, unless you mean that the NOW is infinitesimally small.

I don't like doing this, I don't like reading this kind of thing. I have just stated what I believe, with no justification. If I was to do the same but support the existence of the 'soul' or an 'afterlife', people would accept it much more readily.

Concepts like 'life essence', 'life force', 'souls', 'self' are religious ones to me. I really don't understand why people believe something like this with no justification.

There are some people who do not have a soul, when they die their spirit becomes absorbed
into the collective consciousness like raindrops in a lake.
Only people who become awakened have the ability to continue after death as a soul.

Wait, when they die, these SOUL-less people's SPIRIT becomes absorbed?? Now we have spirits and souls??

I say we have 'spourls' that absorb the spirit of the soul and are conscious of the life essence and energy that permeates through the mind-universe. In fact, we are all one big 'Spourl'.

I also believe in 'Keet'. This is the essence of all feet. Our physical feet and their muscles and movement are just reflections of a higher foot dimension "Keenehtiks". This came to me in a dream once.

[Wizard of Light]

Well, then who is it i am talking to all the time, if it isn't the souls or spirits of the departed - and I'm sorry they aren't all "awakened" (and truly what does that term mean??  It is used far too frequently without real thought!!)??  If this were true then mediums wouldn't hardly have anyone to chat to and bring information through from would they??  

I don't believe it for a minute, not from my experiences.

[James S]

"None of us have 'souls'. 'We' are just a result of the physical processes in our body."

Ditto to Wizard!
I've spoken to too many departed souls to think that they don't exist.

A more well known medium - Allison Dubois - recently said something funny about this kind of belief, or lack of belief. She's spoken to souls that have crossed over, people who staunchly refused to believe in the afterlife. They're comments after dying were basically -  "oops!"

Still...
"I don't like doing this, I don't like reading this kind of thing. I have just stated what I believe, with no justification. If I was to do the same but support the existence of the 'soul' or an 'afterlife', people would accept it much more readily."  

I've no problem with that comment, in fact I readily agree with it. If you believed every theory or philosophy that came along, you'd end up stark raving mad! That's why I wholeheartedly advocate not just sitting back and reading about what other people think, but getting out there and experiencing it for yourself. The onus is on each of us to prove to ourselves what is or isn't real.

[James S]

I'd be willing to simplify it a bit more than that. After a person's body dies, their consciousness, the "who they are" still exists. Part of a whole? Yes, but still with the thoughts, memories and personalities of the individual.

That's something you don't hear spoken of much - personalities. Spirits I speak to are every bit as individual as we are. They have their own personalities, their own ways of reacting, of talking, of describing things, their own likes and dislikes.

I wonder how much of all the debates about such concepts comes down to the fact that we experience life here in a physical form? We're not used to seeing life / consciousness / sentience exist in the form of pure energy.

Blessings,
James.
P.S. nice topic Lola.  

[Wronski Feint]

Being an anthiest dosnt sound fun.  We have souls, as in all of us.  I dont think of a soul as an object.  I dont think its somthing you can just open up your chest and take out.  I think your soul has no time.  It transcends time.  I beleive its what make you you.  Its part of your personality, its your essence, you being, your conciousness.  You body is just the physical interpreter for your soul.  When you die, your body shuts down, quits working etc.  Your soul stops the connection between it and the physical world.  Dunno though.  Ive never died that I know of, so its really hard to say exactly what happens.  I have had dreams where i was dead, and it was a wonderful feeling.  A feeling of utter happiness and freedom.  Sort of a constant floating in water feeling.  So thats why i beleive we have a soul, cause I can feel it.

[James S]

You could very well be right ther Lola. The mechanics of it all are still mostly unknown to us.

The perspective I come from, in actually interacting with spirits, is that I don't see or feel anything of a collective. I do actually believe that is our ultimate form of existance - oneness with the "universal" mind, but I don't get any sense this when speaking with spirits. They seem to me to be just like anyone else in this world that I speak to.

Admittedly, I do try to keep things simple when practicing mediumship. To complicate matters just brings preconceptions into the mix, which can really work against you.

Blessings,
James.

[Beth]

Hey all,

Great question Runlola, but one of the hardest there is to answer!  But this is the way that I have interpreted this puzzle in my life (so far!):

>I have a body.

>I have a spirit that gives life to that body.  It is the 'prime mover' the 'animation principle' of my physical self and permeates every molecule and cell of my physical being.

>I have a Soul that is co-joined with my spirit and, with this, my body.  I do not know how this actually works, but I strongly suspect it is somehow connected through our breath.  I have reason to know that my Soul is Light, and so I can imagine that my Spirit is made up of 'particles' of that Light.  My Soul is the 'Prime Mover' of my spirit. This is also my Mind, but not all of my MIND.  (I definately think that animals have a Soul, and its connection works the same as ours.  How they live here in the physical is not indicative of whether or not they have a Soul.)    

>When my body ceases to function in the way necessary to support my vital organs, the spirit of my body has ceased to function as well.  When I cease to breathe, my Soul/Mind and this body are separated forever.  My Soul/Mind, no longer connected to my bodily influences, will become clear in thought and have access to knowledge that I could not always access while attached to the physical world.  I think that OBE and AP are momentary incidents of the Soul moving away from the body, but until the body ceases to function, it will always return.

>My Soul/Mind is eternal, however, and will continue to exist always.  In what form, I cannot be sure, but that it will continue to exist I feel reasonably sure.

This is the way I understand myself as as individual.  As to the world in which I live:

>The entire physical world has spirit within it, but not necessarily "Soul".   "Nature" or "Planet Earth" has a spirit, but not a Soul.  When a part of nature dies, its spirit dies as well.  

>What we think of as 'collective consciousness' is the same as the Spirit of nature or the Spirit of the physical body.  It is the prime mover of the collective.  When the collective changes (and it does so continuously) the Spirit (Consciousness) of the collective changes as well.  But this is rather mechanical, going with the flow of change.

>There is, to me, a 'Collective Over-Soul' that also works in the same way as the Soul does with the Spirit and the Body.  This Collective Soul is the Prime Mover/Mind of the Collective Consciousness, but because this is so much vaster than the individual person it is really hard to fathom the details.  

>I think of enlightenment, or 'awakening' as the realization that you have a Soul, and are much more than just your physical body.  The more you learn about your true nature, the more 'awake' you become.  The physical world changes for you; things that were once important may become trivial or unnecessary.  You being to awake on many levels.  You want different things; things that urge you toward more enlightenment.

>I do think that all humans have Soul, for all humans have Mind.  The less 'enlightened' or 'awake' a person is however, the less that person will realize or be able to attune to their Soul.  Religion has done more to sever the connection between Spirit and Soul, by placing religious dogma between them. God becomes the animating Spirit of each individual, which is a premise that begs too many questions that can only be answered irrationally, and the true Prime Mover of the Collective Over-Soul is lost in oblivion.

>What is the Prime Mover of the Collective Over-Soul?  I am sorry to say that I do not know.  This is a vast universe, which is something that most people do not live their lives being aware of, so whatever the Prime Mover of the Collective Soul or Universal Soul is, I know that it is not the God of any dogmatic system we have on Earth, which sets itself up more as the Collective Consciousness if anything more than just man made tyranny. And besides, if we are doing well to perceive our own Soul, then what makes any of us think that we can even begin to perceive God/Universal Prime Mover?  (I think we can be a pretty arrogant species if we think so!)

Did I ramble?    Well, that is what I think anyway...of course, there are a lot of other things that play into this big question, but this is at the heart of it all for me.

Peace,
Beth

[PassiveFist]

You choose your way of life, you shouldn't be choosing what you think reality is. Atheism is not a choice, it's the world as it is - to me. Fun? How we feel about something is down to us.

Let me tell you my experiences then:

When I fully break through the mental chatter and nonsense, still the mind, I find no 'self', no 'personality', certainly no 'soul', there is just nothingness or emptiness. Just like science says I would find. This is what I believe enlightenment is. My thought-created self doesn't exist and neither does anything else that is 'me'. The greatest liberation comes from realizing the pure material 'nothingness' that you are. The path to that is simply being here in the now, without illusion.

So, in a way, it is both my reasoning AND my experience that there is no such thing as a soul, or a spirit.

[AndrewTheSinger]

PassiveFist, so if nothing exists and there is no 'you', then how do you perceive that?

Something has to be there to sense the void.

[Beth]

Dear Fist,

When I hear of anyone's experiences in meditation, there is usually that 'no-place space' in varying degrees for us all.  With time and patience, this is also the 'no-place space' that functions as a spring board into other spaces that cannot be reached from the normal everyday mundane world.  These 'other spaces' vary a great deal and will usually reflect to some extent what the person either expects, believes or is willing to expect or believe.  Your reponse is no different:  this no-place space can remain the same always if that is what you expect to find.  And as you said it is:

Just like science says I would find.

You have found what you expected to find.

I found a great deal more when I very patiently did my time in the 'no-place space'.  That was years ago now.  I can still find that no-place space, but it rarely ever stops there; a door has been opened to me that may go unattended for periods of time, but it will always remain open.

But, this is my experience....and no one tells me what to expect or what to believe.  I trust my own experience and I trust what I have come to know.  But, like I said, it may ultimately be different for us all.  

Peace,
Beth

[PassiveFist]

Actually, (and this is totally true) I found it the other way around. I experienced it first, then after reading a textbook on consciousness (Susan Blackmore), I started to realize that 'science' points to the same thing. (Apart from a general no religious 'self' idea, which was previously clear with minimal understanding of science.)

PassiveFist, so if nothing exists and there is no 'you', then how do you perceive that?

Didn't mean nothing exists. Your mind's sense of self is an illusion. Hard to describe obviously. There seems to only be what we refer to as 'awareness' - whatever that is. Not someone aware of something, just awareness. As in: not a thing, but an action.

Another thing though, is that I could break down any other experiences when people were talking to themselves :cough: I mean, spirits. Experience is not good enough on its own.

...even though it would be great to know that this 'no-place-space' or 'nothingness' that I have found is 'only the beginning', and that I would go on to discover what all of you have been talking about  

(I've edited this post so many times   I've lost count, I have to stop )

[Wronski Feint]

All I know is i'd rather go through life thinking that theres somthing there when I die rather than knowing that there is nothing.  In my short life on earth so far, I have learned that sometimes its better not to know, and better to be naive or ignorant to some truths.  But I do still beleive that there is a heaven and a hell, not because I want to, but because I know there is somthing better out there.

[Beth]

Hey Fist,

You wrote:

...even though it would be great to know that this 'no-place-space' or 'nothingness' that I have found is 'only the beginning', and that I would go on to discover what all of you have been talking about

You may never find anything more than nothingness, but then again, one day you may fall through a trap door hidden in the nothingness and be propelled into a whole new dimension of thought and experience.  There is such a highly personal aspect to all of this, that only the sounds, sensory feelings and other subjectively empirical things can be called 'common'.  Sure, there are a great many similiarites of experience when we all 'compare notes', but no one should try very hard to find the 'same meadow with horses grazing' as someone else has seen.  One may well find a meadow, but what is in that meadow may be vastly different from horses, and be a flock of birds for example.  Or, that same one could have a similiar experience by finding oneself in a 'Grand Canyon' like place, or even something really quite bizarre perhaps like a canteena from Star Wars!  

The brain is an amazing tool, but I firmly believe that our brain cannot adequately process all that we encounter in the Astral.  Or better yet, we lack the ability to totally understand what our Minds are trying to process through to us, so we take 'short-cuts' and make 'edits' in order to adjust the memories into something that we can understand or accept.

Perhaps you have reached the 'ultimate' and there is nothing outside of all the experiences that we share here, but if that is the case, then you have already missed out on a great deal of wonderful adventure!!  I will, however, stay my own position, and say that for me, the adventures I have experienced, and the knowledge that I have gleaned has come from the "other side of the nothingness."

Peace,
Beth

[Beth]

The earth's soul is the collective consciousness.
People who have no soul become part of the earth's soul.
A soul is not something that is given, it is something created by awakening

This is not logical:  

"People who have no soul become part of the earth's soul."

If they have no soul, wouldn't they already be a part of the earth's soul? If not, what were they originally if not soul?

"A soul is not something that is given, it is something created by awakening."

What is Soul created out of?  And once it is awakened where does it go?  "Who" possesses it?  

 The problem with this is not in the first premise, but the second and the third.  

We can start with the first premise:
"The earth's soul is the collective consciousness."  

And then say, without awakening to the knowledge that you have an individual soul, that you could lose your individuality or lose your soul by being absorbed by the collective consciousness of the earth.  

I will grant that many people do not think for themselves, or even use their reasoning abilities in the simpliest of ways, let alone access any metacognition that may be available to them.   These people can be likened to 'sheep' that follow a 'shepherd'; blindly following and using their own resources to just eat, sleep and procreate.  You could easily say that these people have been absorbed by the collective (living on auto-pilot), but this does not mean that they do not have a Soul.  It only means that they have yet to awaken to that Soul.

If, however, one of these people wanders away from the 'shepherd' or has an experience that conflicts with all that they have grown accustomed to, then that process of awakening could begin.  This does not mean that he/she is being 'given a soul' nor does it mean that it is 'created' in that moment of 'awakening'.  To me, the act of 'awakening' is describing a process, which at most can be acknowledged as an 'impersonal facilitator', but certainly not as a 'creator' ...which is something else all together.  

No, I must disagree with the original post.  We all have Souls.  What we consciously do toward living, or ignoring, the knowledge of having a Soul is up to each individual:  

Living with Soul=living with the ongoing process of awakening.  

Ignoring the Soul=living through absorption into the Collective (sniff....sniff...I smell BORG here.... )


Peace,
Beth

[Wronski Feint]

What I dont get is how sombody creates a soul.  Humans, I dont think, are powerful enough to create a soul simply by awakening.  There has to be somthing already there before you awaken.  And how can you awaken if you have no soul?  Isnt the soul a part of the astral projection, psi, medium, becoming higher being, etc.?  I dont study the mechanics behind all this like you guys do, so I may be missing out on some things.

[Beth]

Hey all,

As with any complex problem, and even more so with metaphysical problems, a definition of terms is alway essential to ensure that everyone is speaking the same language and therefore 'reading from the same page'.  

Here we have the problem of not having an agreement of certain definitions, most especially for 'Soul' itself.  

What, for instance, is the difference between Soul and Essence?  

If we say that Soul is something that is "made" upon awakening to a higher consciousness, then a definition of "Essence" is crucial to understanding the entire process.  

If we say that 'their essence' is absorbed by the collective, then who or what defines the term "they?"  

And, if only from awakening out of the collective can one obtain a soul, then once again, how do we define the 'collective'?  

If we say that the 'collective' is a 'collection' of 'essences', then we are back to our original question:  What is Essence??   And who are THEY?

When I proposed that 'everyone does' have a soul, I allowed for the fact that some people would rather not do the work necessary to recognize their Soul, for to do so is a very demanding path and requires much that staying unaware does not.  These 'lazy souls' so to speak, would therefore 'remain unconcious of the option to live their lives through Soul' and remain content, albeit unaware, absorbed within the Collective.

Now, what happens to a 'lazy soul' versus an 'aware Soul' after it leaves the body, is pretty much an on-going topic of conversation.

Thinkers can define terms in any way that they want, but if they want to communicate effectively with others, it is necessary to define the terms that are at the foundation of the premises being discussed.  If even one premise is faulty, then the conversation is led into an illogical conundrum, because people will just be talking past one another.  
So, to keep this one going, what is the difference between 'essence' and 'soul'?


Peace,
Beth

[James S]

Ok, I think I'm starting to see this person's perspective.
They're trying to keep away from admitting the possibility of God. Not necessarily the christian or muslim God, but the concept of an all encompassing universal consciousness, a oneness that existed before the conception of the material universe.

This perspective (I think) puts full power of creativity back on us, in that the physical begets the spiritual. As opposed to the more common spiritualist perspective that the Spirit always existed, and the physical was created as an experiential vehicle for Spirit.

As to "awakened soul", I agree with your perspective Lola (if I've read what you've put correctly). That its not non-existent in some people, but rather its not recognised or accepted as an integral part of us.

This does sound like a belief system that's possibly come about from a confusion of differing religious input.

Blessings,
James.

[Beth]

Runlola,

Perhaps your friend needs to write all of this out starting from the beginning as he/she understands it and try to work through it logically.   There are too many ways in which these terms can be interpreted and unfortunately, it is not a strong enough argument to withstand serious criticism.  For instance, if:

Essence=the recorded consciousness of a physical being

then, what does it mean to be a physical "being"?  And, what do you mean by "conciousness", both collective and individual?

Further, if:

Soul=evolving individual consciousness

we are stuck again:  without a clear definition of consciousness, both collective and otherwise, what does it mean for a 'conciousness to evolve'? Moreover, what is it "evolving" from and what has it to evolve into?  

Now, if:

Awakening is not done in the collective, it is done in the physical. (for the sake of this argument)

then you have just put that same original 'essence' that evolved out of its former place of 'physical being', right back into the 'physical' from which it came to be awakened.  

All of these answers to my questions are not making a tighter case for his/her position, it just keeps getting mired in its own lack of definition.  To make the blanket statement that 'not everyone has a soul' based upon this alone, is total nonsense.  Sorry 'bout that.

Peace,
Beth

p.s. The position that I stated earlier may not be right either, but in no way does it include "god".  Additionally, there is a big difference in a "soul that is not awake" and "not having a soul at all."

--b

[Wronski Feint]

I just dont understand, if you awaken/become aware of higher self, you get a soul.  So if you dont become aware you dont get a soul.  Kinda sounds like metaphysical darwinism 'survival of the most aware.'  Also, when you get a soul what does that mean?  Does the soul get you things that people without one does not?

[Ybom]

runlola,
If what you are theorizing is true, how many questions must you ask to get to the center of the tootsie roll tootsie pop? ...errr to get a soul? Approximately when would you be granted this individualism from the collective soul that most people get absorbed into?

[maddutchman]

we all share the same soul!

I feel we are all of the one (God/Divine energy/the all encompassing)soul, and when we realize even so much as a glimmer of this we have the notion that we are more than just physical and the emotional/mind, the separate I is just a way of recognizing different aspects of the one universal energy.
Therefore the notion of soul. the everlasting spark of  energy that starts everything into perpetual motion
In the same way that science believes that energy is never lost, it just changes form, our energy is always there, just sometimes without the form of I.(ego self)
We are different facets of God experiencing itself. hence we all share the same soul.

In the way that a drop of water taken out of the ocean is a drop individually, but when returned, still part of the ocean regardless.

[maddutchman]

Runlola,

i certainly do believe in the afterlife as some people would call it, I also believe in the before life,- energy has no end, it just changes form.
This is one thing that meta physicians and scientists probably both agree on!(yet a lot of scientists are yet to fathom anything they cannot perceive with their own eyes)
Other worlds we experience are just different interpretations, ways of experiencing that energy.
As different wavelengths of energy on this physical plane can be broken down into varying levels on the spectrum, i.e light, matter, gravity etc.
When energy vibration increases beyond that spectrum, beyond light there are more 'realities' to experience.

Hence astral travel is the separation of a higher vibrational energy from a lower grounding energy (matter) to be able to perceive reality at a  different vibrational level. The astral level sits higher in the vibrational spectrum.
Thought itself is the movement of energy, and in the astral plane there aren't the ordinary laws pertaining to physical matter energy to hamper us. The astral plane is created and formed through our own, and others thoughts and feelings.
If we learn to dissolve our own ego, and see ourselves not as a separate I, But as part of a whole (collective consciousness) we can move beyond the astral realm.

One a side note, one very interesting character Nikolas Tesla had information regarding moving outside of the spectrum through the use of vibrational energy. Not sure if you know of his experiments?