Suicide and spiritual growth

[jilola]

My words exactly. Darn I've wanted to post that to Franks message http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

But the lessons we are here to learn are in my opinion chosen by us. And we only choose the lesson not the manner the lesson is going to be delivered, that is up to our free will and that of others.
I think that the result of suicide is dependent on the intent present at hhe moment. If one is running away from a situation the emotional load and the situation is likely to carry over to the astral and one would end up much like you described in your post.
However, if one is only acknowledging that the lesson is being delivered in a way that is actually harmful and impossible to complete the situation changes. The person is not running away from the problem but rather facing the fact the he/she is not equipped to learn it and needs to g back for more theory, so to speak.

And before anyone claims I'm a proponent of suicide as a primary method of problem solving I most empathically am not. But I take solace in the fact that I can in fact choose to end the lesson and go home instead of banging my head against the wall in futility.
Living is the primary way to solve life's problems.

2cents & L&L

jouni

[James S]

That's probably the most powerful message I've ever read from the other side regarding suicide. It fits though with other things I've seen on the subject.
The Idea that someone who has suicided gets caught in a loop that they cannot break free of because they no longer have the facilities to change their mindset.

I remember hearing an interview with someone who had atempted suicide, and fortunately for him he didn't do it properly. He recalls an older woman that used to visit him in hospital, who exposed her badly scarred wrists and told him it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It might be as Jouni says that there are some who are just unable to cope with the lesson they need to learn. It would be good though if people could be helped to understand this, see that maybe even if they can't learn this lesson, they can still go on to something else while still on this earth. There are always choices. That then leaves it up to the higher powers as to wether or not your due to call it quits.

The only problem I have with that last statement of mine is that I am a non-suicidally minded person trying to understand the options faced by somebody who is inclined to suicide.

James.

[rael]

While I agree with much of the above, there is a school of thought which saya that we never have to deal with more than we can handle. It may seem like we cannot cope, but our strength and learning comes through choosing to cope.

Also, suicide seems like a rather selfish act, in that everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

Also, if we are here to learn lessons, rather like being at school until we graduate, then we delay our progress by choosing to drop out of the process. Sooner or later we're going to have to get back in the classroom. I don't see suicide as immoral or against Divine Law, just an inappropriate solution. There is always light at the end of the tunnel, even if we cannot see it from wherever we may be.

[Jacara]

quote:The only problem I have with that last statement of mine is that I am a non-suicidally minded person trying to understand the options faced by somebody who is inclined to suicide.

Well I've been there, and the best description of the "options" they have is none (in their mind).  Doing the simplest things in life (getting out of bed, preparing a meal, et.al.) seems impossibly painful.

quote:Also, suicide seems like a rather selfish act, in that everyone else has to pick up the pieces.

Thing is, when someone is desperate enough to consider suicide, it's because it's literally too painful to live, regardless of the consequences (to either ourselves or those left behind).  I never understood this until I was facing it myself, but the decision to stay or leave is not based on what anyone else wants for us.  If you have the strength to consider others' feelings, then you've still got strength left to deal with your situation.

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

Thanks Frank for sharing this with us.

But it goes to what we are saying in the other thread - people generally behave as they do in the physical world, quite simply because they have no real knowledge of the higher/inner/greater realities. In this case, a person killed himself in order to escape physical reality, not realising that he was taking his problems with him to the next reality without any chance of being able to resolve them in the Astral.

He will get another chance of course, but again, if people only realised the true value and meaning of their physical existence, then the world would be a very, very different place indeed - a much better place. And as I said before, there is a vast heirarchy of highly evolved beings ranging from Ascended Masters, through the Angelic heirarchy through Akashic level high intelligences (who are contactable) who work directly for the ongoing evolution of mankind. The higher always helping to raise the lower.

But right now we are at a critical point where man can either become steeped in even more materalism with technologies, leisure, wealth etc., or alternatively grasp Spiritual realities and change the direction of mankind forever. The dark forces (which are very real and very dangerous) are working against mankind through various individuals even now.

The forces of light will prevail, because all paths lead ultimately to the light, and as it does so, the physical world will begin to blend and harmonise with the Astral and become more etherealised, and eventually will be absorbed altogether sometime after the last human has started the final ascent,and the learning ground, the kindergarten that is the physical world in which we live and learn now will have served its purpose. That process will of course take aeons upon aeons of time as we know it, as there are still new souls being born every minute, and waiting to start out on the long cycle of incarnation and reincarnation before finding the final path home.

The physical world came out of the Astral - that is what Genesis I is all about - the creation of the Astral - not the physical world - and one day it will return to the Astral from whence it came as a density degree of the Akasha.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[jilola]

quote:He will get another chance of course, but again, if people only realised the true value and meaning of their physical existence, then the world would be a very, very different place indeed - a much better place. And as I said before, there is a vast heirarchy of highly evolved beings ranging from Ascended Masters, through the Angelic heirarchy through Akashic level high intelligences (who are contactable) who work directly for the ongoing evolution of mankind. The higher always helping to raise the lower.

Exactly. But the trouble is that most people who get faced with a situation so dire that suicide seems like the only option don't know this.

Rael: Actually that school/university analogue is what I've used on several occasions. But what does a univ. student do when he has accidentally selected a course that is way above what he can handle at the moment? Waste time going through and flunk or drop the course and seek more basic knowledge first and then take the course again?


2cents & L&L

jouni

[Frank]

quote:
Focus15

P.S... If you are going to "quote" someone FRANK, give full credit....

Yes, I've known for a while now where you've been coming from.

Yours,
Frank

[Rolling Bear]

Frank, you're still making rigid distinctions between the "physical" and the "astral," where in fact these are only apparent, not fundamental. The "physical" and "non-physical" are all made of thought. There is only a seamless continuum of co-created whole/parts that exists eternally, in the now. All is thought/emotion. There is no "matter" as you see it -- that's just another holograph of the infinity of Being. The "astral" is as "real" and "dense" and the "physical," it's just a variation on the here/now. As you and Bruce Moen become more adept at interdimensional travel you'll begin to dispense with such notions as the physical being "dense matter" and the astral being "all thought." Everywhere and everything is a learning environment, both "there" and "here." Direct action is not limited to one or the other. There is no respite from what you call "thought-release-action" -- every thought still instantly manifests, even if you don't immediately perceive it as such. And what you refer to as "highly damaging emotions" are to be embraced and incorporated into oneself, into the bittersweet complexity of one's being; they are not to be "banished." They are part of one's character. Even if you try to discard them, they'll return to haunt you. Best to realize they are an aspect of your totality and accept them as a holon of yourself.

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

[Blossom]

The "astral" is as "real" and "dense" and the "physical," it's just a variation on the here/now.

That above is a sentence that just kinda grabs ya..   l like it.

As far as suicide, I think everyone has valid points. But I don't agree with all of them...  I think since we choose what happens to us and are in control of our lives, suicide is just the last decision some make because they have forgotten that fact...  

I personally don't believe there is a suicide loop.  I think technically [my opinion] 'one life ended' and it will start again and have another chance.  Maybe a different decision will be made.  I just don't see the reasoning behind a suicide loop, not if everything is about moving forward and making progess.  They are no loops in my opinion.  Are we not all the creators of our own lives???  Loops do not exist in that..  

But I also think anyone who had genuine knowledge of the astral and beyond that even, ... and was intent on studying and understanding the very nature of it, ....would not commit suicide.  How could they and miss their lesson?  Not if they really understood....  But since we are all at different places, I also feel that if someone were at point in their physical life and committed suicide, I would like to think the lesson learned would be.."There is always hope"..  

Most people know this instinctively, but how would you convince someone that hope exists if they had never known dispair in their entire life and existance of life?   It's an easy thing to say...."There is hope"..., but how would you prove it?  Certainly not with experience if you had never needed to feel hope..   The things that give us knowledge of hope are emotions and situations that involve dispair, trouble, pain and all of those supposedly negative emotions.  They are all necessary at some point in all of our lives to understand hope and KNOW what it is..    

Every dark emotion is valid and real and necessary to understand the suble emotions..  Happy and sad are easy emotions and are usually equated with immeditate surroundings... But hope is different.. It comes from experience.

Just my two cents.

Sincerely,
Blossom

[Rolling Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Blossom:
The things that give us knowledge of hope are emotions and situations that involve dispair, trouble, pain and all of those supposedly negative emotions. They are all necessary at some point in all of our lives to understand hope and KNOW what it is.... Every dark emotion is valid and real and necessary to understand the suble emotions.. Happy and sad are easy emotions and are usually equated with immeditate surroundings... But hope is different.. It comes from experience.

Blossom, you speak with great wisdom, much understanding. Obviously, you have suffered, and understand the tremendous transformative power of pain, which can be for good or ill in our lives, depending on how we respond to it. So many people on alternative spirituality boards have this notion that we should "let go" of anything negative, and pretend our deep pains never happened. Some pain is given us not as something to be healed of, but as a learning experience, however aawful and unfortunate it may be when it strikes. I would that none of us had to suffer, and yet...it seems crucial in our lives, and since it's inescapable, I prefer to face it head-on if at all possible. Sometimes it's not possible; sometimes it's so mind-bendingly awful we are transformed beyond recognition. But I know one thing: simplistic approaches to questions such as suicide, pain, and suffering are ways of avoiding who and what we are. Those who espouse "letting go" anything unpleasant in our lives, and seeking out only positive experiences, are teaching avoidance of one of the main things we're here for, which is to learn sympathy for others, and thereby empathy.

As far as suicide, I definitely don't advocate it, and I have no idea of the spiritual consequences, but I have come close to committing it myself, and I know that, ultimately, it was my own decision that kept me from giving up. It was actually awful to have people telling me I couldn't kill myself because of them, because of the downward spiral it would create -- this just added guilt to the already horrible feelings I felt. Geeze, I thought. I'm not even allowed to kill myself! But nothing anybody told me really had an effect on me; ultimately I stayed alive because I decided that, even if life sucks terribly, there still may be work left for me to do here. The whole experience comletely changed my views on suicidals, and I gained new respect for the kinds of moral/philosophical issues they have to deal with, which society doesn't understand very well.

I've written an essay about grieving that touches a little on this concept, if you're interested. It's available at www.lillipierce.com/grieving.htm .

Blessings,
Dave


"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

[Patty]

I had an interesting experience on the skeptic's board

http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/index.pl

the other day, wherein I was discussing the basis of belief with a fellow thinker who is more skeptical than myself of paranormal. (I am more skeptical than the average participant on the Astral Pulse forum, but less skeptical than the average "internet skeptic." )

At any rate, I had a moment of epiphany. Now, I have known for some time that a person can't be convinced of something they don't want to hear, but my epiphany went beyond that. I had a split second image of the perfection of having all these disparate points of view in community. The skeptic with whom I was conversing, was perfect in his stance, as was I in mine, and everyone else in theirs.

It was a very cool split second.

Rolling bear, I absolutely love your post. (Oh! And I just recognized you! HI!!!) This is not to say that I don't appreciate Frank's point of view, I do absolutely. But my path has led me to the same current understanding that you express. I could not have articulated it, though. Thank you.

Frank, thank you for your posts as well. They always make me think, and I always appreciate the time and effort that you put into them.

Separately, regarding suicide. I was suicidal, and I understand the mental state that leads one to taking their lives. Only two things out of the entire world kept me from attempting suicide - my mother and my husband - but it was a very long night of the soul to say the least.

I have a friend who committed suicide. To the extent that I may have had contact with him, it would seem - based on my limited experience with him - that he indeed regretted his choice, is doing fine, and spent longer 'hanging around' the physical plane than those people in my life who have passed to other means.  In fact I began to pay attention after his death - to the ADCs and so on that were reported from a suicide victim vs other victims. Informally it seems that suicides are more 'present' after they die, there are more convincing ADCs and so on - than other folks. You might want to see if you find the same as circumstances permit (ie as you hear of an ADC from this or that, etc.)

It is easy to come up with reasons why this may be the case - for instance suicides may have unfinished business that keeps them trying to fulfill obligations here or something. Of coures we may never really have a solid answer, until we have passed ourselves.

Love,

Patty

(Maybe instead of stonehenge we should all try to connect with a suicide friend and see what insights we can pull together as a group.)


Patty

[Blossom]

Hello Rolling Bear...

My first thought is you are very perceptive..  You are right.. I have lived through lots of trauma in my life and came through.. I am still living through what some would consider tramua but it doesn't affect me anymore in a negative way..  I can take it in stride now.  I have lived my entire life learning about hope...  What strikes me is I had to have several bad experiences before I recognized hope for what it was and that it was wanting me to recognize it so I could move ahead in my life.. It kept tap tap tapping me on the shoulder.. Now I look ahead and KNOW there is something more out there..  

I read your article also..  It is extremely good and very interesting and I agree with many concepts in it..  You did an excellent job writing it.

Also,... I don't know if you believe in coincidences but something really odd about your article struck me.........[in the last paragraph]

The organization you mentioned ""The Brothers & Sisters of Charity".  I am very very familiar with them... My husband mentioned this organization to me just last week also in conversation [he is catholic too, but I am not]..  There is another major coincidence besides him mentioning this order to me that I really need to keep private that concerns this..  But your article stuck a chord with me.  On several counts.  

I am also glad you are doing okay now and looking ahead once more..  The future is the future for a reason.. It is always in front of us and always something to look forward to and to keep our eyes on.  It can be whatever we want it to be..

Sincerely, Blossom

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Rolling Bear:
Frank, you're still making rigid distinctions between the "physical" and the "astral," where in fact these are only apparent, not fundamental. The "physical" and "non-physical" are all made of thought.

Dave, I wish you'd offer to give me £100 for every time I made the statement "thought is a primary energy". Of course it's all made from thought because (again for the zillionth time) thought is a primary energy. But that doesn't stop me making clear distinctions. For example, scientists have proven that all Physical matter is made of atoms. Now, I don't know about you, but I for one make a rigid distinction between my laser printer and the planet Jupiter.

quote:
There is no respite from what you call "thought-release-action" -- every thought still instantly manifests, even if you don't immediately perceive it as such.

You seem to be getting tangled up here. On the Astral there is no respite from the thought-release-action process. But on the Physical there is and I can prove it. I'm sitting here, at my keyboard, thinking all manner of thoughts yet my surroundings haven't changed a bit.

quote:
And what you refer to as "highly damaging emotions" are to be embraced and incorporated into oneself, into the bittersweet complexity of one's being; they are not to be "banished." They are part of one's character. Even if you try to discard them, they'll return to haunt you. Best to realize they are an aspect of your totality and accept them as a holon of yourself.

Emotions such as fear and anger are highly damaging. I would say that is obvious merely from looking at the state we are in, planet Earth-wise. The French still encompass the notion of a "crime of passion" but I maintain most people get murdered through some kind of mix of fear and anger.

I'm not sure what you mean about all this "bittersweet complexity." It's obvious that is how you view yourself (which you have every right to do) but I like to keep my inner workings to as simple and as emotion-free a degree as possible. I allow myself an element of joy at least once a day, and that's about it.

Yours,
Frank

[Rolling Bear]

Patty and Blossom, thank you very much for your kind and thoughtful words. Patty, I'm very glad you didn't kill yourself (!), and Blossom, I do hope you continue to look into the Brothers and Sisters of Charity. I believe they have much to offer, and Judy and I hope to stay there for a week or two during our big pledge walk from SW Florida to our daughter's grave in Colorado. For one thing, I'd love to learn some of the techniques of organic gardening and self-sufficiency they teach; my wife and I tried our hands at running an organic truck-farm once, but met with disaster. LOL! (But the lessons learned were tremendously important.) Also, John Michael Talbot is there, and is singly is divinely inspired, to say the least.

Frank, I have a few comments on your reply.

>>...Scientists have proven that all Physical matter is made of atoms. Now, I don't know about you, but I for one make a rigid distinction between my laser printer and the planet Jupiter.<<

Scientists have proven no such thing. In fact, quantuum theory implies that there are ultimately no particles (until we create them out of wave interference patterns), and that so-called "matter" is a holographic projection of our consciousness. As the Bushmen of the Kalahari say, "The dream is dreaming the dreamer." This is not proven scientific fact either, but the principle of nonlocality has been proven, and that implies that everything is one. If this is true, then such distinctions as you make between "physical," "non-physical," "time" and "space" are convenient illusions we co-create in order to make sense of things in a more linear fashion. Your laser printer and the planet Jupiter are whole/parts, intimately connected with each other and all else, both micro- and macroscopically.

quote:
There is no respite from what you call "thought-release-action" -- every thought still instantly manifests, even if you don't immediately perceive it as such.

>>You seem to be getting tangled up here. On the Astral there is no respite from the thought-release-action process. But on the Physical there is and I can prove it. I'm sitting here, at my keyboard, thinking all manner of thoughts yet my surroundings haven't changed a bit.<<

Ah, here's where your confusion is coming in. You think nothing has changed, but it actually has -- you just don't perceive it because of your conditioning not to. Or to be more precise, because of your conditioning that matter is dense and difficult to change, you truly are unable to change it...but only because you constantly reinforce your belief system that the physical is very different from the astral. Jesus and Buddha held no such illusions, and for them, matter was as malleable as any other form of thought. This was one of their most crucial lessons to us.

>>Emotions such as fear and anger are highly damaging.<<

They can be if not recognized for what they are: expressions of hurt and confusion. If we embrace these feelings, give them as much love and space as possible, and incorporate them into us, then they no longer have the power to lash out uncontrollably and wreak damage. Rather, they help us to become greater, fuller beings.

>>I'm not sure what you mean about all this "bittersweet complexity."<<

It means I don't try to repress my emotions, Frank. I accept the fact that I have many aspects, many sides to myself, and that they all contribute to the whole that is Dave.

>>It's obvious that is how you view yourself (which you have every right to do) but I like to keep my inner workings to as simple and as emotion-free a degree as possible. I allow myself an element of joy at least once a day, and that's about it.<<

This may work well for Vulcans, Frank, but I have always suspected that, actually, if there really were Vulcans, they would be schizophrenic from trying so hard to supress their emotions.

I rejoice in my emotions. Clearly, I do not follow the school of thought that believes we must present ourselves as stony-faced simulacra. In fact, were medical personnel to try and exhibit real love toward each and every patient, instead of maintaining their carefully-honed reserve, I have no doubt that many more lives would be saved, and more healings would take place. (True, there might be more instances of "burnout," but this might weed-out those individuals who have not picked the right reasons for becoming healers.) For me, this applies in whatever realm I'm visiting.

Blessings,
Dave

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

[Blossom]

Hello Frank,

I don't know what to say here but I am sure that will end soon as I have never suffered much from lack of gab.  You last post disturbs me quite a bit.  
I realize this is none of my business but Frank I have got to offer an opinion here based on your last sentence..  I have read so many of your posts and I respect your views but I disagree with you on this one. [I never thought I'd see the day!..]

I honestly don't think fear and anger are any more damaging than happiness and joy..   What we do with all of our emotions however can be very damaging if we make the wrong choices.. And that is where personal choice comes in to play in my humble opinion. I am going to give the first example that comes to mind and I am going to use happiness as my example or joy if you may .. [I have always been alittle backwards..]

Happiness.. How could happiness possibly be damaging to a person?  Well, happiness, like every other emotion is steered by the physical and the personal choice of each individual in what they think is perceived by each emotion and in how they live their life...  Some people preceive happiness as sitting in front of a computer staring at porn all day.. Some people preceive happiness as having a good time and setting off car bombs [think about it]... Some people preceive happiness as getting drunk on Friday. [have a good time] And then some derive genuine joy from sitting quietly and watching a sunset..  And then some are other's [like me] who enjoy the sunrise and the promise of a new beginning as each day starts.  Are all of these positive forms of happiness?..  Happiness is in the eye of the experiencer.  Right or wrong is perpective oriented and is what influences our personal growth.

My point:  Anger and fear are exactly the same as happiness and joy.  Our personal preception of these emotions are what governs us and is responsible for how these emotions affect us in our lives.  We are all accountable for how our emotions effect us.  Be it good or bad.. It is all up to us.

The majority of the human race would not see happiness as being potentially damaging, but doesn't that depend on who you ask?  The victim or the victimizer..?  

Frank, I am who I am today because of fear and pain and dispair and hurt and anger. And I AM a loving person who is genuine and who cares about people in spite of...........  

Without fear, I would not understand the true courage I had to draw on to change my situation over and over until I got it right and like I wanted it.  Why would courage even exist if there was not fear to feed it and give it strength?  Are they not the same emotions but just used in a different manner?

Without having had pain in my life, I would not be able to comprehend joy and know it fully in every capacity that I am able.  The pain of loss, the pain of abuse have increased the appreciativness of joy.  NOt understanding joy, but appreciating it.  Recognizing it and wanting it.  Pain is a driving force more powerful than nearly anything.. Fear also.. It might be even ahead of pain as a motivator..  

Think of it this way..  If you are always happy and had only always known happiness...what would motivate you to do different things and have different growth experiences?   The bittersweet makes the sweet that much better...

Without utter despair and total sadness, how would I know the difference between the light and dark portions of my soul?

If my life had been totally bland and limited in it's emotions, I would be stale and stuck and accepting of my small joy each day and saying..."This is enough".. That is very limiting in my opinion.. One recognized emotion does not make a whole person into everything they can be.  Notice the word recognized?  All the emotions are always there but to recognize only one emotion seems like fear would be involved in that decision.  Life is a chance and a gamble and full of risk.  Wonderful risks and wonderful gambles..  

The pains I have now, I accept wholeheartedly.. It makes the good that much better.  It makes the bittersweet that much sweeter when it's over..

Bittersweet?... yeah.  But worth it to be where I am at now.  I absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt understand the bittersweet qualites that formed my life.  I have had a hard life and would change nothing because that is who I am. It was all of my making and my decisions.. I am who I am.

Emotions are the flavors of all of our lives. I believe that when we limit our emotions, we limit ourselves and stop growing as individuals. Spiritually and physically and emotionally and anything else you care to mention..  

We can't change the world Frank..  We can only change ourselves.. One person at a time is the only thing that will ever make a difrerence in our world society in these troubled times.

The simplicity of my life as I have it now, came about because I see where I have been and I see the progress that I have made and I now know where I am going.. The world and the laws of the world are stuck somewhere and will probably not change in our lifetimes..  Fear and anger do not break laws or set laws...  People do because of how they let fear rule them.

I am not sure what it means when you say you allow yourself one moment of joy a day.. I sit in my living room and watch the leaves swirl outside my window and it feels me with joy.  I can watch my critters stand in front of me communicating and feel the same joy.    

I will tell you something else too Frank..  With my life like it is at present.. and you allowing yourself one moment of joy per day...it kills me inside just a little to read a statement like that.. It really does.. It makes me very sad for you.  If it was my place to tell you anything..I would say "Learn to live Frank" and experience the emotions of your life in every way.. Enjoy them all and relish them with your whole heart.  For me to learn to really live and enjoy my life..I had to get an incurable disease.. And now the sky is the most beautiful sight in the whole world and watching the clouds holds a very special moment for me every time I look up.

I wish you peace Frank...

Sincerely, Jenn



     

[Frank]

Sorry, Dave, I correct myself. Physical matter is an illusion. Yes, right, it kinda reminds me of the fairy tale: The Emperor With No Clothes.

So I didn't just go and buy a laser printer from PC World... I had a, "holographic projection" of my consciousness and it just became manifest. Frankly, I wish it would have. It cost me £300 worth of hard earned fungolas.

But I am a Vulcan, or so you say. But wasn't that just a TV program, Dave? You know, to me that was all entirely make-believe (but try telling that to all the Treckers). Oh, as an aside, "To boldly go where no man has gone before." Was that not the world's most famous split-infinitive?

Yes, talking of emotions, it's obvious how they have controlled your life (to date) and you talk about Jesus changing Physical matter. Alright, I'm open minded enough to understand you know and can encompass that possibility, or have developed that skill.

So please, do let me know the date you will be walking down the middle of the Thames river, Dave, and I'll be there holding my hand up and admitting everything I ever learnt was mere horseshit.

Yours,
Frank

PS
You know, your posts make me understand where that amazing Randi fellow is coming from.

[Rolling Bear]

Good job, Frank! That's the way...you expressed emotion. It's a start. I'm willing to take some hits from you if it can help you loosen up a bit.

About my belief that the universe is hologramlike, and that, ultimately, there's no distinction between "matter" and "spirit": Quantum physics seems to offer us several convincing reasons why this may be so. One of them is the principle of nonlocality, which has been demonstrated in the lab. It shows that one wave/particle can be everywhere at once. Think of the implications of this. Also check out Bell's Theorem. Some of the most emminent physicists believe that the hologram is a very accurate model of what consciousness is like, and in a hologram, the part contains the whole. Now, this is stil theoretical, and many physicists disagree with it; but my own experiences with astral travel, lucid dreaming, remote viewing, clairaudience, and telepathy have convinced me otherwise. Also, thousands of mystics from every religion have experienced a state of timeless unity beyond the illusion we refer to as "the physical," and these experiences correlate exactly with what some physicists, neurosurgeons, and psychologists believe about the nature of consciousness: that it is all simply waves forming the various hologramlike experiences we take to be "reality" -- both in the "physical" and in the "astral."

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

[Frank]

Dave, let's forget your belief about how the universe is hologramlike. Frankly, I couldn't give a damn. What concerns me is how you talked about Jesus, and how you fully understand how he/she manipulated Physical matter. Okay, as I say, the day I see you walking down the middle of the Thames river (a la Jesus style) I'll hold my hand up and freely admit that everything I ever knew was pure horseshit.

In fact, if you can do this in front of the world's press from now within the the next 12 months I'll bet you £500,000. Like I said, listening to you makes me realise where Mr Randi is coming from. Devoid of emotion... nope... I never said I was devoid of emotion. In fact, the emotion of curiosity (with your help) and under my control stands to easily double my capital this next 12 months.

Yours,
Frank

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Blossom:
Hello Frank,
I don't know what to say here but I am sure that will end soon as I have never suffered much from lack of gab.  You last post disturbs me quite a bit.  
I realize this is none of my business but Frank I have got to offer an opinion here based on your last sentence. I have read so many of your posts and I respect your views but I disagree with you on this one. [I never thought I'd see the day!..]

Blossom, it is an unfortunate fact that your current incarnation will soon end. It is an unfortunate fact that mine will end soon too. Okay, maybe mine may end a little before yours, or yours may end a little before mine... such matters not. What matters is: if we tend to the correct approach, we will all be There at the end of the day.

So whether this discussion concludes now or in a hundred (Earth) years... we'll still have the opportunity of coming to an amicable conclusion: Hopefully.

You talk about anger and fear being the same as happiness and joy. You further go on to say about how our personal perception of these emotions are what governs us; and is responsible for how these emotions affect us in our lives. Yes, this is true for the majority of people within this Physical plane of existence. I also agree that we are accountable (or should be accountable) for how our emotions effect us. Be it good or bad: It is all up to us. What we do with all of our emotions, however, can be very damaging if we make the wrong choices.

Okay, if you screw up then I'll try and get you. If I screw up then Ginny and friends I'm sure will not fail. Whatever way we've got to pull together.

Yours,
Frank

[Rolling Bear]

quote: Frank:What concerns me is how you talked about Jesus, and how you fully understand how he/she manipulated Physical matter.

Frank, perhaps you were referring to someone else's post, because I said no such thing. Here's what I said:

"Jesus and Buddha held no such illusions [that matter was truly solid], and for them, matter was as malleable as any other form of thought. This was one of their most crucial lessons to us."

From this quote you may not deduce that I'm claiming to "fully understand how he/she manipulated matter." I am claiming to have some insight on how Jesus, Buddha, and many other spiritual figures regarded the nature of matter, which was as a kind of illusion.

Further, you may not deduce that I am purporting to be able to walk on water. However, I do believe that, if our beliefs are strong enough, any of us can do anything.

quote:Frank:Okay, as I say, the day I see you walking down the middle of the Thames river (a la Jesus style) I'll hold my hand up and freely admit that everything I ever knew was pure horseshit.

Perhaps it would be good practice for you to start doing that now, everyday. It's something I do myself. It helps me remember that we live in an infinite multiverse in which anything can happen. It keeps me from taking things for granted. It allows an openness to flux.

Blessings,
Dave

"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber

[Blossom]

Hello Frank,

First the quote ... [and for the quote pickers...it is correct..{a little joke to light things}]  

So whether this discussion concludes now or in a hundred (Earth) years... we'll still have the opportunity of coming to an amicable conclusion: Hopefully.    I will hold you to that and will look forward to it... And of course it was be nicely done.  Is there any other way???

I agree with you in most all of your points Frank..  You have great ideas and are very insightful.  I was just concerned about that one little thing and as usual... got carried away.  

But you are absolutely right Frank.. We have got to pull together as a world and as a world people ...  

If I was out of place I am sorry.  I didn't mean to imply you were devoid of emotion.  I just take things so literal sometimes and when I read you allowed yourself one little bit of happiness each day.... well, you know the rest...

Have a wonderful day everybody!

Sincerely, Jenn [smile]

p.s.  Speaking of walking on water:  I do not believe our physical anything could walk on water...  Maybe it is so and maybe it is not.  But the problem I have with this is the buoyancy factor thrown in ..  I think astrally, all of us can walk on water or anything else... I think the physical has it's own rules.  In spite of everything being "one big atom".

I believe the bible to be full of metaphors spoken in "parables" for the people of those times and the mentality that they had... We have changed alot since those days.. have we not now?

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Blossom:
If I was out of place I am sorry.  I didn't mean to imply you were devoid of emotion.  I just take things so literal sometimes and when I read you allowed yourself one little bit of happiness each day.... well, you know the rest...

Blossom: No you are not out of place. I had the pleasure of reading what you had to say several times. There is something I'd like to stress, however, which concerns the above quote. It's not a question of allowing myself a little bit of happiness. I am a generally happy and upbeat person pretty much all of the time. What I said was I allow myself an element of Joy once a day and that's about it.

To me, the emotion of Joy is extremely powerful and highly addictive!

It's a feeling I can tune into that creates this huge surge of vibrant energy within my physical body. For about 10 minutes everything around me seems to sparkle and has a brilliant radiance about it. Any kind of difficulties I may have been having just melt away, and I get a feeling as if I'm directly plugged into the whole cosmos. The feeling gives me a sensation of pure bliss and, as I say, it is very addictive. There have been times when I over indulged, for instance, and my whole day was shot.

Yours,
Frank

[alpha]

Hey all,
Ive been following this thread,its an interesting one indeed.Heres my take on emotions.Im a walking example that negative emotions can be damaging.

If I let any negative thoughts or emotions get out of control even slightly.It will give me anxiety.It took me a very long time to learn how to break this cycle.

It has been one of the hardest lessons in my life.Still I struggle but I am much in control now.And it keeps me fighting that parasite within the mind.

Pain if you allow it too,will turn to anger,And eventually hate.Anger 99% of the time is a waste of energy in my eyes.There really is not much use for it.Its the old you poke my wound I poke yours.It makes the world feel  like a huge torture chamber.

We have all had traumatic experiences and if someone were to come into this world from the outside.They would see  what looks like a bunch of people with 3rd degree burns on their skin.Not literally,hope you know what I mean.

But Im sure all of it can be seen on the energy body.Maybe some discoloration.Getting  angry and letting your negative emotions control you.Those wounds no matter how old they are,will never heal.

Thats why Ive been encountering these people that look horrid in these lower realms.There energy bodys are full of emotional poison.If there was no such thing as an emotional loop?

Why are these people there?And lately ive been getting representations of people who are now living,that look alot like the people caught in those realms.And that makes me  very afraid for them.

I know these people very well and have known that they were very unhappy..They are members of my family.And I have my hands tied behind my back.Ive tried to help but they just cant see past all the pain.The best thing I can do for them is just try to be humble around them

Its alot harder for me to remain closed around them.Or anybody who is carrying alot of baggage around.As I can feel there pain when they are upset.It can feel almost like a shockwave of emotion at times..

Not only are neg emotions damaging to you they also have a great effect on those around you.Even if you think you are keeping them to yourself.They have a way of turning down other peoples vibrations.

I dont see myself as repressing my emotions.There just isnt any reason  to have them anymore,when you can see the world in this way.You will never want to get angry at someone again.

What else did I want to say,I had a laugh about the vulcan comment.We are emotional beings.We could never be like vulcans.

Love and hate may seem very different.But I feel they are the same,Only one is more diluted than the other.Which do you choose to use!

I too was startled by your comment about joy  Frank.But I think I just misunderstood it.

Dont get me wrong,I still get angry if im pushed close to edge.but as soon as it comes.Im already working to let it pass through me.That edge though just keeps getting further and further away.

On changing actual physical matter,I think it can be done.But there are too many people locked into their beliefs right now sustaining what is now.

[img]http://www.ponilla.org/Vulcan/Spock/ITiTnB_05.jpg">
http://wavfiles1.homez.net/~wav/files/prosper.wav">Listen to Spock

                                                                                                                ALPHA











-------------------------------
"your divine awareness awakens all the love in your being.Hating and  fearing forsaken,gone are the guilt and the blame.Your soul forgives,your divinity lives"
-------------------------------

[Blossom]

Hello Frank,

Well well ..this is very interesting since you clarified things with your explanation of your 'little bit of joy' technique...  How do you do it?  Is it a breath technique that you use..?  It sounds wonderful and I would like to know how.. The only time I personally have experienced anything similiar was about 8 months ago or so..  I was laying in bed in the dark with my head slightly lower than my feet.  I was facing the foot of the bed.. I started feeling a tingling on the soles of my feet and it traveled up my legs.  It was not like doing energy work.  I was not even attempting to meditate.  I was just laying there thinking in the dark with my eyes open.  It felt like a physical force and as it traveled upward, I felt intense intense joy spread over my entire being that made me want to burst out laughing it felt so good.  I lay there with my eyes open grinning trying not to laugh and wake my husband up .  Is that the same thing you are speaking of... that type of thing?  The reason this came to mind is because of it's intensity of feeling and the joy associated with this feeling. I have never felt that before.  I mean.. I have felt lots of energy but not where it actually was associated with an emotion like joy specifically..

Alpha, I agree with you that anger is usually a waste of energy.  I look at it like this.. "There is no reason to fight, raise your voice and be angry.. ever.. When you are right, why raise your voice and argue about it. Nobody cares anyway..People know when they are genuinly right. And if someone is wrong about something what is the point of anger in defending a stand that is wrong".   We can't make other people do this however...only ourselves.  One small change.  

Now, when I am in that situation which is very rare now, whether I am right or wrong, I just listen and watch.  I do not defend myself any longer.  In observing the other person and analyzing what they are saying instead of listening to their words and taking it personal, I look at their reactions to themselves... I can see how different I am from the other person when I do this and it is very calming and soothing to me.  I remove myself mentally from the situation and become an observer of their words.  And their words lose power over me when I do this.  I feel pity/empathy when I do this for the other person regardless and maybe because of their anger and their lack of control, becuase I can see how lost they really are.  Therefore by using this philosophy concerning anger and fighting, it does not affect me in a negative way..  

I do believe anger [when uncontrolled] could effect an energy body if the emotion is not kept in check... That's why we need to learn control.. Of our thoughts and of my minds..  

I don't have alot of problems with people and their negative emotions in my life because I am the ultimate loner in the true sense of the word.  I remain isolated at all times and that never changes and won't ever change because I don't want it to. As a rule, I don't talk to people or see people unless I go to the grocery store and that is once a week. I stay home, my children are grown, and my time now is spent in self absorbtion of improvement.  Physical, mental and spiritual.  I want to progress and my life right now is perfectly arranged to do that. That is my only goal in life.  To be better than I am now..  

I don't repress my emotions either.  I accept them and deal with them as they come.  Every one of them. Vulcan life would be very easy I think... But being isolated like I am, there are not really too many things that bother me.  I live in a world of my own creation and if I decide I don't like it, I will change it.  

I think we all need to be in charge and control of our own lives, but use care not to infringe ourselves on others.  We are all unique and special..    

Take care everyone!  
Blossom

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Blossom:
Hello Frank,

Well well ..this is very interesting since you clarified things with your explanation of your 'little bit of joy' technique...  How do you do it?  Is it a breath technique that you use..?  It sounds wonderful and I would like to know how.. The only time I personally have experienced anything similiar was about 8 months ago or so..  I was laying in bed in the dark with my head slightly lower than my feet.  I was facing the foot of the bed.. I started feeling a tingling on the soles of my feet and it traveled up my legs.  It was not like doing energy work.  I was not even attempting to meditate.  I was just laying there thinking in the dark with my eyes open.  It felt like a physical force and as it traveled upward, I felt intense intense joy spread over my entire being that made me want to burst out laughing it felt so good.  

Yes, there is an emotion of joy that is felt as a specific connection. It's an overwhelming feeling that is difficult for me to explain. It's related to the "spark of hope" feeling I talked about on another thread when I come across children in the F23 region.

Yours,
Frank