Karmas grip, marijuana cultivation

[EtheriK]

I had a few questions I was hoping would receive answers. I think I understand the mechanics of Karma but was wondering how to word it correctly to an associate of mine in deterring him from a line of business which may be detrimental to his well being. His thoughts revolve around the cultivation and sale of marijuana.

He believes that by providing buyers with marijuana they reach a drug induced state similar to that of mind body separation which will in turn trigger a deeper appreciation for spirituality and ignite a search for answers. He argues that marijuana is natural unlike amphetamines and therefore is less harmful. He knows that the effects of the drug are weakening physically, yet also states that its use is not intended for long term use. He also states that many cultures took part in the use of drugs in order to understand spirituality more deeply, and so therefore it harbors no negative Karma.

I can see his point, but disagree. Although positive events may take place afterward, that can't be assured. I also think it's not anyones place to take on bad Karma in order to facilitate the evolution of others. The old, "means to an end" thing.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[NickJW]

Well you see, Karma isn't real, its mysticism.

[EtheriK]

I didn't post this in order to dispute it as being real or not. The heading for this particular format includes Karma related issues. This is a Karma related issue. Your entitled to your opinion, but if you have nothing constructive to offer other than "it's not real", don't post anything at all. At least provide your views on why it's not real. That would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Ybom]

I didn't post this in order to dispute it as being real or not. The heading for this particular format includes Karma related issues. This is a Karma related issue. Your entitled to your opinion, but if you have nothing constructive to offer other than "it's not real", don't post anything at all. At least provide your views on why it's not real. That would be much appreciated. Thank you.

Thanks for giving us permission to challenge you as well Do you just want convincing arguments to get him to change his ways immediately, or do you have the time and desire to learn why you feel so strongly against his future goals?

First, I would like to present the argument that NickJW was trying to provide, being that karma is mystical thinking with a bit more depth. According to this website, karma is a bhuddist concept. Does bhuddism sit well in your gut, or is it just a bunch of mystical fluff? Based on how you form your posts, I assume it doesn't sit well with you so you need to find another path to explain your views, in my humble-ish opinion. Another good point is you never really explained to us why you believe karma is real in the first place.

A better path for you would be the Dogmatic path, stating that if you go against a specific set of principles, then you are doomed. A few good ones would be; friendship, morals, and local laws. Put him in his box and maybe he'll get skeerd.

[MindFreak]

Karma is merely cause and effect. If its karma your trying to explain to him simply show him the effects that are or will be caused by his actions.
Id also look at your own reason for wanting him to quit this line of business. If it is actually for his own well being and not just your own disapproval of marijuana then it would be ok to have a chat with him. Because, sticking with the concept of karma, before you act you must make sure your motive, or intentions are altruistic.

If it is just because you dont like pot smokers then I would reconsider because smoking bud is no different from drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, drinking coffee, etc. so if it is from that standpoint I would make sure you do not do any of these things as that would be very hypocritical.

[EtheriK]

Nah it's cool. I don't think it'd be hypocritical because I don't smoke, drink or anything like that. It does revolve around his well being though because I do care about him. I've figured out the best course of action. His actions stem from a need for financial strength, coupled with personal satisfaction from growing. The whole process and accomplishment. He's spoken of a desire to start schooling, as he feels that it would give him purpose. I think that coupled with a part time job (I have an idea) as well as government payments dedicated to students would help.

I just remembered there's an aptitude test at the university early next month  I'm attending. He seemed interested. So that's what's up! Cheers everyone, much appreciated.

[BoscosFriend]

karma is in the mind. the things that happen in life are really not good or bad or anything, its just simply cause and effect. the experience of life comes from the mind. if i trip over a rock and scrape my knee, i might get ticked and curse the rock. but really what happened is just a process of cause and effect. the anguish is in my mind not in the rock, the ground or my knee. our actions determine the way we perceive these events. if i get upset and curse the rock, that action conditions the mind to perceive these types of events as negative, so that mental anguish will always arise when those outer conditions are met.
you never know when you will see the fruits of a particular karma. it could be today, ten years from now, next life time.
it all depends on when the right outer conditions arise. lets go back to the tripping over a rock ex. when i react to that in anger i condition my mind in that way, so eventually that mind state will arise again, but it will not arise until outer conditions are met, like say stubbing my toe.
remember karma is the intention behind our actions.
the mind states that arise when we stub our toe is the fruit of karma. when the mind state arises and manifests into intentional action weather it be thought, bodily action, or speech that is creation of karma.
it breaks down like this:
stub toe, get ticked and shout profanities- this is action by speech, the intention behind this action is anger.

action with anger as intention- creates karma, the very action creates an impression in the mind.

get cut off in traffic, get ticked flip off the other driver- bodily action with anger as the intention. the reason why you react in anger is because you conditioned the mind to react to theses situations in that way. this action creates karma. reinforcing that same impression in the mind.

lose you last man on super Mario bros.- you curse the video game, action with anger as intention. creates yet more karma, reinforcing that same tendency in the mind. next time outer conditions are met anger will arise and you will act again and reap the same results and act again and reap and act and reap. endless.

i tried to keep it simple with my example to better explain it. it gets way more deeper than

[SiVA]

According to this website, karma is a bhuddist concept.

Indeed it is a buddhist concept. Hinduism came before buddhism, and Karma is well established in the Hindu faith as well.

I'm no theologian, but I believe the concept is along the same lines in both Hinduism and Buddism.

Back to the topic, as a former Marijuana user I don't have much good to say about it besides that it does give a different perspective on things. I can be more creative on it sometimes. However, the depression, anxiety, obsession, laziness, paranoia, slovenly-like behaviour/sideaffects that go along with it far outweigh the upside.

[MindFreak]

SiVA I dont know where you get yours but I never feel any depression, anxiety, obsession, or paranoia when I toke and I live in vancouver BC.

[EtheriK]

It's okay. The situation is resolved. Depression, paranoia etc come from long term heavy users of hydroponically grown marijuana. I know that the idea of Karma might not stop very many people from doing what they do, but he's not very many people. He himself believes in the mechanics of Karma and is always open to ideas. I can live with the fact that he will grow marijuana. I just needed to find a way to word myself correctly so that I would know that my opinion didn't go unheard. I'm not going to sit here and harass him into doing what I want. Everyone has the freedom to do what they see fit. I'll share my thoughts once and once only.

I've never thought that Karma would affect me negatively if I took a neutral standpoint. I'd always thought that do nothing, get nothing. But that's a matter for debate. As long as I'm not consciously trying to achieve a negative result. I don't feel that him growing and selling will affect my own Karma, but his. Anyway, the situation is resolved, like i said.

Thanks.  

[gdo]

Whether you call it 'karma' or 'cause and effect' or 'what goes around comes around', we each do, in effect, 'reap what we sow'.  

That being said, we can advise our friends as to what we think is a good and healthy (physically, mentally and spiritually) course of actions for life, but each of us has to work out our lives for ourselves.  If some one chooses to think or believe that marijuana is a substitute for a genuinely acheived heigthened conciousness, then they will have to learn the dead end that using marijuana for that purpose, truly is.  

Quite often we create philosophies that are convenient to our own foibles rather than taking the harder road of a philosophy that demands much of us, by constantly looking at our own ignorances and facing them.  But that requires a rather consistent sense of humbleness and a readiness to accept our own mistakes readily.  

Indeed, some substances can create a temporary glimples of levels of reality that are not of the ordinary type.  But these are not permanent or earned experiences, only shadows of what might be possible.

[EtheriK]

Absolutely gdo, absolutely. Thanks for the comment.  

[SiVA]

SiVA I dont know where you get yours but I never feel any depression, anxiety, obsession, or paranoia when I toke and I live in vancouver BC.

Depression arises when coming down from it, or the next morning when I feel like excrement.

Anxiety comes when knowing I have a toke waiting for me, but I have to do something first (like work).

By obsession, I'm referring to how addictive it can be.

Paranoia: It's no secret about this one...

Sure everyone reacts differently, but I would argue that a large percentage of people who use it or have used it have experienced these symptoms. If anyone argues this point they are either immune to these problems or they are in denial or they are new to the drug.

When I started, for the first year or two, it was awesome! Talk about having fun! But your body adjusts over time and reacts differently.

[Kallas]

Yea on karma for one sec from a Buddhist perspective , as BoscosFriend said it is based on the intention behind an action, also many people falsely perceive karma as a purely mystical mumbo jumbo thing but it goes beyond that. It's not a big hourglass that adds a bit more sand to each side based on what you do, it relates to your actions and the positive or negative effects they may have. There's more too it than that but anyway.

Back on track, i don't personally think there are any shocking side effects with short term marijuana use, i think it can actually be quite beneficial for some. The main side effect that i can see though is that a user can ( and most probably will ) become mentally dependent on it, and the side effects of long term use then are basically those listed above. So you may need to convince your friend not to sell it, ( i may have interpreted it wrongly but is that what he intends to do ) as I'm not sure about where you live but here i know that it is illegal and going to jail or getting a heavy fine is a side effect no-one should have to cope with.

[MindFreak]

Ive been toking very often for about 12 years and I dont remember any of those side effects. Maybe when I first started. As for the addiction, that is purely mental because weed itself is not an addictive substance.

[SiVA]

Like I said, not all fall into the same group as I do. There are people who use it all of their life and don't experience this (my father is one of these people!).

But the other group, like me, react differently. Mostly everyone who tokes knows someone who gets paranoid on it...

[MindFreak]

Parnoia I guess I used to experience but that was more because I was still under the rule of my parents and I was paranoid that I would get caught.

[gdo]

Aha!!   Getting caught!    We may evade the scrutiny of those in authority over us for a time, be they parents or other types of responsible persons.

We can even deceive ourselves.  We can escape into a convenient and less stressful fantasy.

We do also ingrain these episodes into our subconsciousness and eventually the dichotomy of what we seek and what we propose and what we really do catches up with us.  We catch ourselves.  We create unsolvable conundrums for ourselves.  Hence the ancient myths about LABYRINTHS and such.  We seek to find the way out of situations of our own making.  We can rationalize the effects of our conscience, with our desires to make a philosophical argument for our mistakes.  

Our Conscience is a form of a higher consciousness.  

How inventive and we all are.   How wonderful the things we can create.

[Kallas]

Yea as far as i know there are no proven physical side effects... (i may very well be wrong so fell free to correct me) as the body does not develop any physical addiction as such anything associated with addiction is purely a mental dependation. Funnily enough there was a study done in africa where a tribe smoked marijuana and there were no noted side effects, a few tribe members were told (and convinced) that paranoia and obsesionality were known side effects. One of the tribes members shortly afterwards suffered from a severe case of insomnia and paranoia. Those not told of the effects were fine...   Placebo effect anyone

[gdo]

Maybe not the classic 'plaebo effect' but the power of suggestion... maybe.

Nonetheless, the illusion of strength is not real strength, using a calculator  to do math does not mean that you can actually DO the math.  Using a drug to imitate an experience does not mean you OWN the knowledge of the experience.  Not all people have the same experience using marijuana, but all who learn to use discipline and really study and work at what is necessary for them to  achieve a higher level of consciousness can do it.

[The Present Moment]

Is a brewer to blame for alcoholism?

[MindFreak]

Only alcoholics are to blame. But the brewer does contribute.

[gdo]

What does the brewer contribute?  

A human body in the course of it processes makes alcohol.  

Take a can of frozen concentrated OJ to a lab and have it tested.;

There will always be a small amts of alcohol in it.  Natural sugars will always be subject to change by different forms of bacteria resulting in CO2 and Alcohol.  

Natural alcohol and deliberately using marijuana are 2 different things.  Both alter the normal forms of consciousness that we experience, but there is a difference in the effects and the processes involved.  

Do you eat bread?  

BTW what is the 'house of bread'?

[The Present Moment]

What does the brewer contribute?  

A human body in the course of it processes makes alcohol.

I was using the word brewer to describe people who produce beer and other alcoholic drinks.

[gdo]

Brewers, distillers and fermenters make a product.  So did buggy whip producers.  If no one used a specific product, then there would be no demand for it, eventually the product maker would have to make something else.  

Should people who have allergies to or problems digesting cows milk blame the dairies?   Is it the cows fault?  

We all have different susceptibilities and weaknesses.  We also all have different strengths.