Out-of-body experience clues may hide in mind

[kiwibonga]

Science certainly doesn't interfere with much. Nobody can prove that the astral doesn't exist, so science has it as "maybe" -- rare are the scientists who rule out the existence of other dimensions beyond our scope of perception.

Those who do are not scientists. Science has no room for dogmas.

[catmeow]

Donal

I think I understand what you are saying.  

Perhaps it's as follows....

The physical world of matter and energy has no overlap with the psychic world.  Psychic "energies" are not the same as physical matter and physical energy.  Hence we can not measure ESP or detect the presence of ghosts using physical EMF meters or their like! Trying to do this is like trying to chase a rainbow.  All those ghost-hunters running around houses with EMF meters are wasting their time!

ESP does not obey the "square law" which is obeyed by all normal physical energy fields. Gravity, magnetic and electric fields all have the property of diminishing over distance in exact proportion with the square of the distance involved.  ESP on the other hand is as powerful across continents as it is between rooms in the same house.  Distance is not a factor.   Hence ESP is definitely NOT electromagnetic in nature.

But....

Having said that I do have a few reservations....

Quantum mechanics has a concept of "entanglement" which allows instantaneous communication between two "entangled" sub-atomic particles even at galactic distances.  In other words, and in the case of entanglement, distance is not a factor!  Entanglement seems to break the conventional laws of space-time.  It allows faster-than-light travel.

So this is an interesting and rich area to investigate.  I suspect that in order to find a physical/ESP connection, this is perhaps where we should be looking?  I don't think it will be as simple as switching on a radio receiver to detect ESP waves!

ESP, PK etc do exist, but we need to use a lot of imagination to figure out the physical link!

[catmeow]

I think some things like this won't be able to access because of the sacredness and what God has created

Tvos, I have often thought this too.  It may simply be that in the Grand Plan there must always be mystery and ambiguity surrounding ESP, life-after-death etc.  If these things were assured, then perhaps this knowledge would defeat the whole purpose of our being here, in this physical world, with all it's trials, tests and uncertainties.

[David Warner]

Catmeow,

I think God gives us enough clues, a taste of the after-life through trauma, trials, loves, loses, through light and darkness. Still we are trying to find out 'ourselves' if this exists or not. Listening to the NDE cases, patients who are dying can give a better and vivid validation than what science can conjure up by placing electrodes in someones head.

It kinda of reminds me of the movie "Raiders of the lost ark" where towards the end everyone was destroyed by looking at this energy and for the power of greed. When the two who didn't were not destroyed because of their intent for good. There are just some things that are sacred that God won't let us trespass with evil intent. Imagine if everyone could project, manipulate matter, control the world, change time,space, and future. This world is mangled today with pain, suffering, war, economy, governments trying to over throw each other.. add this to the mix - that would definitely be the end of days.

Tvos

[MisterJingo]

Catmeow,

I think God gives us enough clues, a taste of the after-life through trauma, trials, loves, loses, through light and darkness. Still we are trying to find out 'ourselves' if this exists or not. Listening to the NDE cases, patients who are dying can give a better and vivid validation than what science can conjure up by placing electrodes in someones head.

Hi TVOS,

Firstly, I want to say that I enjoy and respect your posts and contributions here . I just wanted to make a point in regards to this and your previous post, the one regarding Gods plan may not allow for such phenomenon to be discovered fully in any explainable way.  
What of people who might believe in the survival of consciousness after death, but not of God as humans visualise him? I find myself in this camp. I used to be Christian, then I went through many beliefs, until my concept of God changed to the idea that the universe just evolves as is. And consciousness has now arisen and is now discovering itself and the universe in which it finds itself (perhaps you could say the universe discovering itself). At a push I might concede that the totality of everything could be 'God', but I think this word is too loaded to be used for such a concept.
Without going to deeply into this, and derailing the topic , I found our concept of God is just too human-centric to have any true meaning when taking 'everything' into consideration.
Without a God to stop us moving into 'sacred' areas (in quotes as it's a relative concept), I think the possibility is there for us to eventually discover the reasons behind this phenomenon, and astral planes etc if they have an existence outside of ourselves.

Quantum mechanics has a concept of "entanglement" which allows instantaneous communication between two "entangled" sub-atomic particles even at galactic distances. In other words, and in the case of entanglement, distance is not a factor! Entanglement seems to break the conventional laws of space-time. It allows faster-than-light travel.

So this is an interesting and rich area to investigate. I suspect that in order to find a physical/ESP connection, this is perhaps where we should be looking? I don't think it will be as simple as switching on a radio receiver to detect ESP waves!

ESP, PK etc do exist, but we need to use a lot of imagination to figure out the physical link!

Entanglement is a possibility, but then we don't know what scientific discoveries lie down the road – especially at the speed research is moving now.
One thing to consider is that the physical link might be 'under our nose', but we just can't see it yet. What I mean by this is that the structure and order we perceive in 'reality' is perceived because that's how the brain is wired e.g. we see what we can (and miss an awful lot with standard senses). If we looked at the activity in the brain, I doubt we would ever attach the structured reality we perceive 'external' to ourselves to the patterns of firing neurons and electrical fields we see there. So perhaps the problem with the astral is similar – our brain takes this information from somewhere, but its of a form which might look meaningless to us right now – so its more of a decryption problem (so to speak).
Either way, I truly believe if such phenomenon has a meaning outside of a living human brain (i.e. we can't discount the possibility that the astral is maintained by the existence of organic brains), the fact we can experience it, and come back and report on it suggests there is some interaction between the astral and reality (if there was no interaction, and matter was separate from consciousness, how would consciousness attached to a matter created brain/body etc). Even more so, just yesterday Robert Bruce said he believed astral matter can be materialised into physical matter, and if this is true, there is a definite link there.

[David Warner]

MisterJingo,

I understand where you are coming from about "God" as a whole, energy inside and out that spans time/space that lives inside of everything. I don't vision God as a man with a white long beard sitting on a thrown of gold. I see it the first way as I described as "we" are god and everything around us.

It should be interesting in the next generations of how science and medicine advance with the awareness and acceptance of the levels of consciousness outside the body.

tvos

[catmeow]

Mister Jingo and Tvos

I actually agree with both of you.  Given that the Earth is a tiny planet in a solar system in an unremarkable region of the "outer reaches of the western spiral arm of the Milky Way" which is a galaxy of 2 billion stars in a universe of 100's of billions of galaxies we are certainly only one form of physical life.

Unless all life in the universe is of human form, then it is unlikely that God would also be of human form.

I think you both expressed very clearly two viewpoints which I agree with and which are not necessarily mutually exclusive!

(I may have got the exact numbers wrong!)

[kiwibonga]

I think in regards to the energy body, all lifeforms are "created equal" ; it is their physical body that is different.

I do believe that some form of divine intervention was involved in the creation of man, though... If you look at the differences between human DNA and chimpanzee DNA... The evolution from one to the other is very clear, but the chances that this mutation would happen randomly and to a male and female of the same population, in such a way that they could mate, are probably one to infinity...

It's as if something spliced some DNA around and created us from chimpanzees (or a more primitive version of them). This is the reason we often hear of a "missing link" -- there's just something that is missing between all the other species on earth and us...

According to this way of thinking, God is not human in the physical sense, but I believe that we were given the tools to become gods, to harness the powers of Kundalini, the energy body, etc...

Look at the greys, those Roswell aliens... Don't they look a hell of a lot like they'd have the same chakras/energy bodies as ourselves? If they're real, of course... Perhaps there is a "perfect physical body shape" which gives lifeforms access (physical and psychological) to the full extent of their subtle bodies?

I always wonder, when I speculate about these kinds of things, how far I am from the "truth..."

[catmeow]

Kiwibonga

I'm really not big on the Theory of Evolution (Darwinism).  I don't believe that it can explain the evolution of the human brain.  But I'm also less keen on Intelligent Design.  Rather I suspect that human evolution is a combination of Darwinian evolution plus intervention of some sort.

Please take a look at this thread:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16101&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=evolution&&start=0

and in particular this post

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16101&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=evolution&&start=13

Apparently Nature magazine published information suggesting that modern humans acquired 223 genes, not vertically via the mechanisms of evolution, but horizontally by a non-evolutionary mechanism. The explanation is that this was a sideways insertion of genetic material from bacteria.

Well if the 223 gene thing is true, they had to think of some way of explaining it, and the bacteria idea is just a guess.  Another explanation of course is that someone or something deliberately intervened in our evolution.

The thread contains several links to articles of varying authority discussing this.

[kiwibonga]

Apparently Nature magazine published information suggesting that modern humans acquired 223 genes, not vertically via the mechanisms of evolution, but horizontally by a non-evolutionary mechanism. The explanation is that this was a sideways insertion of genetic material from bacteria.

Yeah... This is something I learned in school, they made us compare human and chimpanzee chromosomes -- you can clearly see that it's as if someone decided to take one of the chimpanzee chromosomes, assemble it with the one next to it, and created the first human!

This is something that scares me a bit, as well... What if it's not divine intervention? What if we were designed by an alien race and are somehow being exploited?

If they have mastered DNA manipulation to such an extent that they were able to create a viable, intelligent species... Could they have programmed our brains to be able to control us one day?

Of course we can create lots of paranoid theories... I guess it's better to try and find out from someone who might know

I'm going to ask in the channeling thread and see if the Elohim has something interesting to say about it :p

[CFTraveler]

If they have mastered DNA manipulation to such an extent that they were able to create a viable, intelligent species... Could they have programmed our brains to be able to control us one day?
Of course we can create lots of paranoid theories... I guess it's better to try and find out from someone who might know

I've always wondered why is it that when you apply the 'right' frequency stimulus to the temporal lobe, you can have an 'alien abduction episode'.  I just wondered why do humans have that kind of 'video' in our heads.

[jalef]

the ethnologists view:
it is because of our todays belief system. if you would stimulate the same part in a medieval brain they propably would see angels and ghost, maybe demons. thats how they explain all the sightings of angels and other such stuff and because our belief system changed we see aliens now.

unfortunately we havent anyone with the medieval belief system to try this...

[kiwibonga]

I wonder how long it'll take before recreational drugs are replaced by electric cattle prods :p

[upstream]

I've always wondered why is it that when you apply the 'right' frequency stimulus to the temporal lobe, you can have an 'alien abduction episode'. I just wondered why do humans have that kind of 'video' in our heads.

You can see it the other way around. I mean the temporal stimuli may work as a permissive factor that makes the abductee able to perceive an ongoing astral contact. Aliens may operate outside of time and space as we know it and when the abductee's brain is triggered by mirco seizures caused by either drugs, OBE-practice or some external application they use that period to let themselves known at the "conscious" level.

[mactombs]

I've always wondered why is it that when you apply the 'right' frequency stimulus to the temporal lobe, you can have an 'alien abduction episode'. I just wondered why do humans have that kind of 'video' in our heads.

Having personally experienced the abduction scenario, I have to agree that it is just the latest fad for fear-generated F2 imagery during a false awakening. In F2, it seems, if you fear it, you will find it.

I believe the latest "grays" were never encountered before their first appearance in an obscure alien movie - after which the look became more and more popular as more media copied and refined it.

This isn't to say that genuine "extra-terrestrial" contact in altered states isn't possible, or even common. I just believe, as usual, that it's important to be able to discern the machinations of your own mind given form in F2 from genuine outside influence.

[upstream]

Yeah I quite agree with you guys, just trying to see this from a wider perspective. Abduction at the physiological level seems to be nothing more than a fear based hallucination triggered by some amigdaloid response. It's pretty inherent to the physiology of the state known as ASP (awareness during sleep paralysis) as well to the phenomena of FOP (feeling of presence). Some thinks it's a result of "intrahemispheric intrusion."

But again, these hypothesises don't exclude each other or the possibility of the interference of an external consciousnesses that try to gain advantage of various physiological processes. As reports of sudden death syndrome, for example, increases with sunspot activity so does UFO sightings coincide with tectonic activity, etc. We are part of the Nature, product of it, and Nature is proud of our shining cities!

I doubt aliens to be purely man made. Not quite sure what type of aliens says from the little million that is supposed to fly out there that they use a mask of some sort to communicate with us. I remember my initial shock when I first saw the grays' face in the television. It triggered a bunch of dream memories.

Some of these "aliens" goes as far to say they are actually us from inside out. Probably abduction is a modern form of shamanic initiation which symbolize humanity's contact with other levels of the universal mind. Hollywood just take its part in the process not generating it. External appearance is not important... It may be the result of an unconscious agreement between both sides. Could be archetypical or hard wired too. But when you thin about who made this hardware these options appear as really the same.

[catmeow]

I came across this article, which critiques the media frenzy following Blanke's discovery that OBE-like sensations were induced in (just one) of his epileptic patients, by stimulating the angular gyrus:  Similar observations to the ones I made:

http://www.oberf.org/blanke_92602_OBE.htm

[David Warner]

there was a saying that "scientists are trying to metaphysics wrong and metaphysics are trying to prove science wrong" or something like that.. just loved that quote.

but what is remarkable is that the scientists who state that OOBE is just a physical chemical firing of some brain function need to really undergo the OBE state themselves. they are the one's always trying to prove us wrong, why don't they get off their butts and find out for themselves instead of being broad minded?

tvos

[Token]

Well, I believe the physical is tied into the non-physical.  Actually, this is true according to physics.  E=mc^2 literally means that energy is accelerated matter.  

I too believe that in some unknown way the physical is tied into the non-physical.  I wanted to clarify something however.  E=mc^2 actually does not imply that energy is accelerated matter.  This is a popular misconception brought about probably because the speed of light (C) is included in the formula.  What this formula actually states is that if you have a certain quantity of matter and multiply it by 3*10^9, the result is the amount of energy that you will get out of this matter.  You don't have to do anything to the matter, just simply convert it to get this energy.  Converting it is the tricky part of course.  The purest way is to allow equal quantities of matter and antimatter to touch each other.  This reaction will cause 100% of the matter to be converted into energy.  The second more popular way is through nuclear fission or fusion which involves the nucleus of atoms to be broken apart by other nuclear particles (neutrons) or be combined into larger nuclei by combining neutrons also by bombardment.  This actually is only moderately efficient however.  A typical nuclear reaction such as from a bomb only converts about 10% of the nuclear matter into energy, the rest is just waste matter.  The least efficient way of converting matter into energy is by ordinary burning which is hugely inefficient.  I don't know the exact number but it's like .001 % or something ridiculously low like that.  For example when you burn a 1 gram piece of paper, you get some energy and about .999999 gram of ash.  

I hope you don't mind that I picked on this, but I think it's important to clear up misconceptions cause they can spread like wildfire. :redface:  

So, energy is matter.  
-Z

Yep!

[Token]

Even if scientists discover a fool-proof way of producing OBE's by stimulating a certain part of the brain, and let's hope they do, this wouldn't mean that OBE's are hallucinations.  It could just as easily mean that scientists discovered a good way of ejecting people from their bodies!

Hey CM, Well put!!!!!!!!

[Token]

If it is non-physical phenomena, how can the physical have knowledge of it (ie if the physical couldn;t have knowledge of the astral, then this forum wouldn't be here).

I think for the most part, and IMHO, in the scientific community physical is anything that can be detected by instruments or through other "physical" experiments.  This would include ordinary matter, all forms of energy(light, heat, etc.), and the 4 known forces (electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, and gravity).  Even though consciousness exists, it's impossible to explain because it doesn't fall under any of these categories.  In the future we will probably discover more things that are physical, such as additional forces, or unusual matter which will then give us the ability to turn consciousness into an equation and create computers that are truly conscious, but until then, consciousness is considered "non-physical".  Or maybe like Tvos says, it might be forever in the realm of the unknown for some mysterious reason.

[Token]

Catmeow,

I think God gives us enough clues, a taste of the after-life through trauma, trials, loves, loses, through light and darkness. Still we are trying to find out 'ourselves' if this exists or not. Listening to the NDE cases, patients who are dying can give a better and vivid validation than what science can conjure up by placing electrodes in someones head.

It kinda of reminds me of the movie "Raiders of the lost ark" where towards the end everyone was destroyed by looking at this energy and for the power of greed. When the two who didn't were not destroyed because of their intent for good. There are just some things that are sacred that God won't let us trespass with evil intent. Imagine if everyone could project, manipulate matter, control the world, change time,space, and future. This world is mangled today with pain, suffering, war, economy, governments trying to over throw each other.. add this to the mix - that would definitely be the end of days.

Tvos

Tvos, these are good points.  (This is a great thread!!!   )  Sometimes when I just look around and reflect, like when I'm out in the wilderness hiking or something like that, I can't help but think that this world is a strange thing because it's explainable in many ways, and something that might be made by a traditional God would not and could not be explained in any way shape or form and to any degree, it would just exist as a pure thing.  For example, a human being wouldn't have a brain and organs, we would just be this blob of jello that just "is" with no constituent parts to make us work.  The fact that there is a brain, an imperfect one at that, and organs and man made objects everywhere we look indicate that there is a definite purpose.  There are struggles going on everywhere because of the imperfection of this reality and it is our destiny to deal with those imperfections for whatever reason.  If we knew it all, there would not be an imperfect world, only a very pure perfect one which would almost have to lack any features at all, just pure empty space and a pure empty consciousness to reside in this pure empty space.  No flowers, no music, nothing.  It's the imperfection that makes this reality and our familiar form of consciousness possible, and I might add, might also explain why the astral is so imperfect as well.

[Token]

I think in regards to the energy body, all lifeforms are "created equal" ; it is their physical body that is different.

I do believe that some form of divine intervention was involved in the creation of man, though... If you look at the differences between human DNA and chimpanzee DNA... The evolution from one to the other is very clear, but the chances that this mutation would happen randomly and to a male and female of the same population, in such a way that they could mate, are probably one to infinity...

It's as if something spliced some DNA around and created us from chimpanzees (or a more primitive version of them). This is the reason we often hear of a "missing link" -- there's just something that is missing between all the other species on earth and us...

According to this way of thinking, God is not human in the physical sense, but I believe that we were given the tools to become gods, to harness the powers of Kundalini, the energy body, etc...

Look at the greys, those Roswell aliens... Don't they look a hell of a lot like they'd have the same chakras/energy bodies as ourselves? If they're real, of course... Perhaps there is a "perfect physical body shape" which gives lifeforms access (physical and psychological) to the full extent of their subtle bodies?

I always wonder, when I speculate about these kinds of things, how far I am from the "truth..."

Kiwibonga, thoughtful post.  I too agree there is some sort of "guidance" going on, not a "thinking" guidance as in the traditional image of God looking over us little critters here on Earth, but I do have a strong sense that we are evolving a certain way (into humans for now) because it is necessary to the entire physical and metaphysical universes well being and development.  Evolution is happening, but there is a real reason why it's happening.

[Token]

Apparently Nature magazine published information suggesting that modern humans acquired 223 genes, not vertically via the mechanisms of evolution, but horizontally by a non-evolutionary mechanism. The explanation is that this was a sideways insertion of genetic material from bacteria.

Yeah... This is something I learned in school, they made us compare human and chimpanzee chromosomes -- you can clearly see that it's as if someone decided to take one of the chimpanzee chromosomes, assemble it with the one next to it, and created the first human!

This is something that scares me a bit, as well... What if it's not divine intervention? What if we were designed by an alien race and are somehow being exploited?

If they have mastered DNA manipulation to such an extent that they were able to create a viable, intelligent species... Could they have programmed our brains to be able to control us one day?

Of course we can create lots of paranoid theories... I guess it's better to try and find out from someone who might know

I'm going to ask in the channeling thread and see if the Elohim has something interesting to say about it :p

I don't think you need to worry about the alien theory, because after all, that would imply that a race superior to the race that engineered us would have to exist to engineer the race that engineered us ad infinitum.  This is why most people are turned off by the new "intelligent design" debate because it begs the question who created the god that created us?