The RTZ OBE

[Selski]

Hello all

I've been mulling over the RTZ OBE for a while now and would love to hear your experiences and views with it.  I'm interested in how you view the physical world, and whether this carries over to the RTZ world.

It's the anomalies that we experience that intrigue me.  Why are windows in the wrong place and pieces of furniture totally missing?

I can start the discussion by saying that I'm not very observant in my physical life, and wouldn't necessarily know what is in my room right now if you asked me to close my eyes and describe it to you.  However, I would probably get the window and door in the right place.  

I remember an experience once where there was something in the hall that looked like a mobile phone on the table.  I had passed the table and realised that the mobile phone thing shouldn't have been on the table, as it wasn't in physical reality.  When I turned around to check out what it actually was, it wasn't there anymore.  

Was that a case of my conscious being somewhat dull in the first place and creating the article and then when my conscious brightened and I knew it shouldn't be there, I somehow removed it from the table?  Or was it a pure astral article and when I wasn't being logical and rational I was able to see it, however when those physical barriers came in, I was no longer able to see into the astral, and only saw what I remembered from the physical world?

What are your experiences and thoughts on this rather moot subject?

Sarah

[CFTraveler]

This is not an answer, just another question- when I was young and had no knowledge of what an OBE was, I projected, and everything always looked normal- in fact it was hard to tell it from a flying dream, except  that when I tried to turn on the light it wouldn't work, and when I finally went through a wall the idea of the OBE hit home (went ding! in my brain.)  But now as an adult and having read about these anomalies, I constantly either have astral projections (not RTZ's, and not too long, and full of these reality fluctuations.)  I wonder how much influence expectation has on this phenomenon..

[mactombs]

My thought is, without a body to interpret the RTZ, our minds do the next best approximation. So things can looked warped, be missing, in the wrong place, etc. It doesn't explain things completely ... but how much of reality is the way it is because of our physical? Maybe the RTZ can't accurately even be translated to what we're used to. It would be an interesting experiment to focus intent or try an affirmation to see the RTZ as it actually is (if these is even possible ... who knows how much of reality is dependent on the observer ... )

[nwb]

Ive heard this a lot , that light switches never work in dreams, but not too long ago i was dreaming, i was in my room in the dream and it was dark, i turned on the light switch and it didn't work the first 3 times or so, i was like what is wrong with this damn thing, then i flipped it again and the light turned on i was like oh there we go, i walked to the bathroom and turned on a light switch and it worked the first time i tried it, so i obviously thought i was awake after this......but waking up about 10 minutes later i remembered the light switches working in the dream and remembered all the times Ive heard that light switches never work in dreams.......well just thought id bring it up

[Steve 2B]

Hi Sarah,

Are you sure it was RTZ and not an F2 copy? I only ask as I had something a bit similar last week, found myself at the end of the bed, looking at where I should have been, only to find my body wasn't there. Also my bedside light was on, but I know it was pitch black in waking life.



Steve

[kiwibonga]

I think a big part of reality fluctuations are due to being fixated on physical perception.

You may be under the impression that what you see is simply the light that enters your eyes after it has been reflected by a surface...

But the truth is, that is only what is seen on a physical level. By the time the raw sensory information makes it to your brain, all kinds of alterations have been made that allow you to interpret what you are seeing. This is the reason TV, for example, can be watched without much effort -- you do not have to cut up the shapes you see into objects, to figure out what is people, what is object, etc..

In your mind, everything you see around you is "mapped" in the sense that ideas are associated to patterns. When you see a new object you will often need to look at it for a few moments just to memorize its shape and put it in your "database."

When you are in the astral, there are no photosensitive organs. You are adapting reality to your human perceptions. In other words, what you are seeing is not objective, material reality but ideas, thoughtforms.

Because of this, you are not just perceiving physical reality, you are only perceiving your idea of it. If you were to try and take in objective perceptions, you would be overwhelmed with information -- you would see each and every atom and its composing parts, without any way to comprehend what you are seeing.

This is also why dream memories are so weird... For example, you may remember seeing someone, but the fact that they didn't have a face did not hold any importance, what you perceived was the idea of their presence, therefore you interpreted it as "someone" but in fact, you did not go through the steps of looking, "decoding" and interpreting, the interpretation came directly without a need for you to consciously induce it.

So when you see rooms and furniture out of place, you are not always seeing something that you created subconsciously -- you are seeing reality, but it is not mapped properly.

[jub jub]

My take on it is this, since your not actually viewing with your physical eyes, but rather your consciousness, your consciousness does it's best to recreate the RTZ or lowest plane. I notice that if I have a RTZ projection somewhere other than my home, I will see all manner of weird things because my brain is not familiar enough with it's surroundings to reconstruct them accurately.

In one of Monroe's books, I got the impression that he actually saw what was around him. In one instance, he was performing an experiment and noticed a man who he accurately described to the lab tech. As it turned out, it was her boyfriend or husband. Now that I can't explain. Maybe Monroe had a special gift.

It seems most of the accounts I read about on this forum detail the RTZ as being a little out of sorts with the physical.

I think I basically said what kiwibonga said, only much simpler.  

[Stookie]

Kiwibonga-

I really like your explanation. It makes a lot of sense. Do you think that there is something that a person can do to avoid these fluctuations?

Maybe this is where all preconcieved notions of eye sight needs to be dropped, and a new way of "seeing" developed.

[Astral Projection]

could the explanation be that there is no RTZ?
I mean, how many of you had OBE where everything was same like physical reality, like you are ghost which is separated from body? I don't think that anyone had experience like this, so in my opinion there is no RTZ, but it is another astral projection or F2 or LD or whatever you wanna call it

[jub jub]

Yea, kiwibonga did a nice job of explaining it!

I read somewhere that one of the reasons we take a body in the physical is so we can accumulate memories. The purpose being, so when we die we can construct our environment according to what memories we have accumulated during our stay on Earth. I also read that these memories are not stored in our brain, but in a matrix of sorts. This theory was actually proved with lab rats. The lab rats were trained to maneuver a maze to obtain their food. After their training period was over, the memory portion of their brain was removed. Much to the astonishment of the scientists, the rats were still able to remember how to obtain the food. The scientists actually went so far as to remove most of the rat's brain and they still found the food without any difficulty.

I don't know if this proves anything but it does make you wonder about where memories are stored and why some can access/recall better than others. Perhaps the folks with the best recall have the most accurate RTZ OBE's?

[kiwibonga]

I think "creating your own reality" (which includes crafting means of perception) happens naturally when we are away from the physical. This is an ability that we all possess, but it is not something that we are used to.

Very few people are successful at quieting the mind -- it takes a lot of daily practice with meditation. This remains true out of body, except the mind's constant chatter is not limited to voices in your head and furtive images, it can manifest itself around you. This is something we call subconscious pollution most often.

Seth mentions this in Seth Speaks, if anyone's read it -- when we awake to our "true" senses, we need some time for adaptation, to really gauge our (infinite) abilities and fully control our creative powers.

I haven't had enough experiences to test it, but I have a method planned out. There was something interesting in the Astral Pulse newsletter recently, something about "cancelling." When you are meditating and you start hearing "monkey chatter," identify each unwanted thought and think "cancel" or "stop" to erase it.

Out of body, you should be able to know the difference between things that are created by you and things that are actual physical matter. Whenever you see something that seems out of place, use a "cancel word" which means "disappear if you are my subconscious creation" ; learn to clear up your thoughtforms, and as you practice this, you will automatically avoid fluctuations whenever your intent is to observe the RTZ.

Simply stating "I only want to perceive the physical" could work as well... Remember, "ask and you shall receive!"

[Inward]

It's the anomalies that we experience that intrigue me.  Why are windows in the wrong place and pieces of furniture totally missing?

Practice, practice, practice. One can't expect a beginner to run a marathon after a few dozen tries. One can't expect to become a decent singer after practicing a few dozen times. Similarly, one cannot expect personal proof of the projection of the Etheric body from just a few dozen projections.

There is a very gifted projector named Jerry Gross. He's said that on average one could expect such expectations after 5 years of solid projections. So if you project at least a few times per week then it usually takes 5 solid years of that before you could expect to project anywhere on Earth in Etheric projection and accurately download that to your physical body. When most people project, it does not mean they are not accurately downloading the information to physical, but it simply means that a lot of the time the information gets disturbed and modified. In fact, a beginner could project to a place they have never been in the physical, and if they look around and analyze the room in their Etheric body and afterwards visit that place in the physical, they could get a certain percentage correct.

So what Jerry is saying, with practice you can get it every time, and I agree.

God bless,
Inward

[Zarklon]

yet another post by Kiwibonga that I find interesting...  He really hits my beliefs nail on the head when he spoke about percieving reality Out-of-Body ... thats a good way to put it.   I too have had a few light switches not work for me in my dreams as well and it was even during a projection that I call one of my "proven" projections... right around the time I got to my "working but non-working" lightswitch at the time  , I heard the voices of my nieces playing down the hall and I realized that I didnt know they should have been coming down this weekend.  The room was an unnatural golden/orange glow and it was a way i've never seen my room (7:50 am .. Im never awake that early)  so when I ended the OBE willingly all that I've seen and heard was true perfectly.  It was amazing and it just goes to show you that even though I had reality fluctuations .. I still proved something I wouldnt have normally known without being awake at the time or whatever... so that should be an interesting read for a lot of people now that I think about it eh ??  Should illeviate a few mental "blocks" some people might  have as well.. just from me realizing it kinda helps me to alleviate my own block that even though reality fluctuations are occuring out-of-body I shouldnt end my experience thinking "oh crap i'm in the alice and wonderland effect again" .

hope this was an eye opener to someone   Peace!

[Mitch]

Maybe related to how our minds focus on one possibility/location of an object, when really there are many. In the physical, we just think of it as being in one place, so it is always there. But, in the astral, maybe how things move, disappear, appear randomly is just showing the different possibilities, and we aren't always choosing just one.

?

[manuel]

There is no such thing as a real time zone, since time and space are both illusions that are agreed upon as being real, the physical word is just a mirror of your mind.

[nwb]

i think there is such thing as an RTZ obe but i wont go into details

[Astral Projection]

the physical word is just a mirror of your mind.

So anybody mind is the same?
I think that physical reality is our contact with this universal consciousness

[Greytraveller]

This world is the 3 dimensional part of what Einstein called the 4 dimensional space-time continuum. RTZ projections place the OOB person in the 4th dimension. The 4th dimension transcends the 3 physical dimensions. Because humans mostly relie on their 5 physical (3 dimensional) senses they are usually unaware of this transcendent dimension. Simple so far.
Now here is my theory on why RTZ projections often do not correspond exactly with known physical locations. Einstein left out consciousness as a constituent of the universe. In my view the universe is a 4 dimensional space-time holographic matrix where consciousness and energy and matter all interact in a very comple tensor field. Since physical objects have energy (or an energy field) about them any person who is OOB in an RTZ projection (I call it an ethereal projection) may or may not correctly perceive the 4 dimensional energy/energy field as a 3 dimensional physical object.
Remember that perceptions can be faulty even in the best of times. During an OBE perceptions can become distorted, hazy of warped. And there could be other factors involved. For example electrical equipment might be perceived as energy, or light or even a different type of electrical device (such as a tv appearing as a CD player).
Reality is objective (imoa) and human perception - because it can never completely comprehend all of reality, only selected bits of it, is subjective. So it is the OOB person's perceptions that are mistakenly perceiving the object as something else. Or maybe the OOB person does not perceive a physical item at all. That is the reason for confusing RTZ projections.

[manuel]

This world is the 3 dimensional part of what Einstein called the 4 dimensional space-time continuum. RTZ projections place the OOB person in the 4th dimension. The 4th dimension transcends the 3 physical dimensions. Because humans mostly relie on their 5 physical (3 dimensional) senses they are usually unaware of this transcendent dimension. Simple so far.
Now here is my theory on why RTZ projections often do not correspond exactly with known physical locations. Einstein left out consciousness as a constituent of the universe. In my view the universe is a 4 dimensional space-time holographic matrix where consciousness and energy and matter all interact in a very comple tensor field. Since physical objects have energy (or an energy field) about them any person who is OOB in an RTZ projection (I call it an ethereal projection) may or may not correctly perceive the 4 dimensional energy/energy field as a 3 dimensional physical object.


Remember that perceptions can be faulty even in the best of times. During an OBE perceptions can become distorted, hazy of warped. And there could be other factors involved. For example electrical equipment might be perceived as energy, or light or even a different type of electrical device (such as a tv appearing as a CD player).
Reality is objective (imoa) and human perception - because it can never completely comprehend all of reality, only selected bits of it, is subjective. So it is the OOB person's perceptions that are mistakenly perceiving the object as something else. Or maybe the OOB person does not perceive a physical item at all. That is the reason for confusing RTZ projections.

wow, very nicely put.

[Inward]

There is no such thing as a real time zone, since time and space are both illusions that are agreed upon as being real, the physical word is just a mirror of your mind.

I think manuel is on to something. What if we take this one step further that what we call the physical world is a group collective experience and that a higher part of ourselves binds the universe in totality.  

Inward

[kiwibonga]

Just because reality rhymes with objectivity doesn't mean they are related.

A lot of people like manuel here like to barge into threads and say that nothing is real and everything is an illusion... That's because he's stuck in the "scientific" definition of reality, which is too concrete to be accurate.

[jub jub]

thinks,

Maybe you could add a poll to see who thinks the RTZ is real or not. It could provide at a glance how the majority feels, even for those who don't want to post.

BTW, a very good thread! Lot's of good ideas out there.

[manuel]

Just because reality rhymes with objectivity doesn't mean they are related.

A lot of people like manuel here like to barge into threads and say that nothing is real and everything is an illusion... That's because he's stuck in the "scientific" definition of reality, which is too concrete to be accurate.

Whos says im stuck in any scientific mode of thinking? get your facts right, I have personaly come to this conclusion from my personal experiences in these matters...I didnt say reality is not real, it is real to how much you think it is real.

[kiwibonga]

Well, you did say there was no such thing as a real time zone...

The real time zone is agreed-upon as a standard, just like the notion of reality altogether.

[Selski]

Some interesting views here.  I have found that my experiences tend to fluctuate between an almost perfect replica of the physical room to anomalies all over the place.  And this is random.  What I mean is, I'm not progressing - for example I'm not getting fewer anomalies in my more recent experiences.

It's totally random.

I think CFTraveler brings up a good point - expectation and suggestion.  This does seem to play a part in our experiences.  However, from my own personal experience, it isn't consistent.  My expectations sometimes come to life, and sometimes are unfounded.  

Again, it's totally random.

I kind of like what kiwibonga says, but it's wrapped in too much "belief" packaging for me to really take to heart.  No offence, Kiwi!

Inward has a good point - practice practice practice - and perhaps when I've been at this for 30 more years or so, I'll be able to speak with more authority on the subject.  But even so, I still think it's personal to each and every one of us - and one of my beliefs so far (hurrah - I have a belief!) is that it's different for everyone.  

Therefore, reading about other's experiences is not particularly beneficial, especially when you are on your own OBE path.  So the guy you mentioned, whilst he may be honest, good and true, he is to himself.  I want to be honest, good and true to myself.  I don't want to rely on anyone else's experience to shape mine.  Again, this sort of comes back to CFTraveler's experience - how expectation and suggestion can influence.  I'm of the opinion that once you (I) have headed down the OBE road and am comfortable with having them semi-regularly, it is best to avoid the books and "gurus".  And follow your own path.  Just my opinion.

And whilst I can understand Manuel's comment, it isn't very productive to the spirit of the thread.  The thread mentions the "RTZ" as a place/focus/whatever that we are familiar with and just happen to call the RTZ to qualify what we are talking about.  If we go down the "nothing is real" road, we would find discussing anything rather difficult.  We need terminology to communicate.  And the "real" time zone is quite apt because it is close to what we call "reality" (regardless of whether reality is real or not - it is a given that we understand and helps us communicate).

Are you with me?  

Sarah