Please save me from becoming a skeptic...

[mjolnir_knight]

It has been almost a year now since I discovered astral projection.  It was the first quarter of eigth grade when I was surfing the internet in the morning and I came across Jonas Ridgeway's forum.  I read the posts, began to believe.  That night, I tried to project and found it to be an instant success.  Within twenty minutes, I felt intense but pleasurable vibrations, started to see through closed eyes, heard buzzing, and floated out of my body.  I was elated.  The next day when I got from home from school, I tried again.  I got the vibrations, but no projection.  I tried again and again, but was constantly met with failure.  Since then, I have only been able to project three times.  Those were from sleep paralysis state, so they were increadibly easy.  I have also had a handful of lucid dreams.  But no projections.  Projection use to be the main thing on my mind.  Now it has become a mere afterthought.  I am believing less and less in astral projection nowadays, but I have been kept going by the thought of that first wonderful projection.  As much as I want to believe, I am rapidly becoming a skeptic.  I try to stop myself, but my logic and scientific side says no.  It says that projection isn't possible.  I wish that I could project again, but I simply can't.  If there is anything that anyone could do to save me, I would really appreciate it.  I have read the greater portion of the recent posts on this forum, have read almost anything that I could get my hands on.  This really sucks.  I don't know.  You all might be seeing less and less of me now that my life has become busy with highschool.
Any replies are appreciated.  Sometimes it's just nice to know that someone is there for you.
Thanks,
Patrick

[AndrewTheSinger]

Why do you want to AP? What do you wanna do and how do you intend to do it?
If you can answer these questions positively then you can AP again.

[mjolnir_knight]

What do you mean by positively?  Do you mean answers that are pure of heart?

[AndrewTheSinger]

Yup, and detailed. The "hows" are very important. Don't worry about when it's gonna happen, but be sure to know exactly how you're gonna do it when it happens.

[MisterJingo]

Save you from being a skeptic of what? That the AP experience is real? Or from the claims made by a lot of people interested in AP?
You have experienced AP, so the experience in and of itself is real - anything more then that is really personal belief.
Is AP only interesting to you if the standard philosophies are true i.e. life after death, truly leaving the body etc? If so, why?
AP as an experience is pretty amazing, I have been projecting for a long time, and although more seems to go on than science allows, I am not totally convinced yet of conscious survival after death. But I'm going to continue exploring this state until then - and who knows, perhaps I will find proof I seek .
Ap is very important in my life, but sometimes other events take greater importance (as it should be) and I have to put my energies elsewhere. AP will always be there when I have time to devote to it. I let it compliment my life, rather than become it.

[catmeow]

Hi mjohnir_knight

I have a very logical and scientific mind, and I am very skeptical.  But logic leads me to the puzzling paradox that there MUST be more to this universe than there appears to be.

The very fact that we are here is the biggest paranormal event ever.  Science teaches us that the universe exploded spontaneously out of nothingness into a universe of billions of galaxies and stars. Science teaches us that our universe very probably isn't alone, and there are perhaps an infinite number of parallel universes. We know that our own physical universe has 11 physical dimensions, and we know that at the quantum level particles exist in an infinite number of states simultaneously.  We know that the act of observing matter changes it.  We know there is "dark matter" and "dark energy" which we cannot see, measure or feel.  We know that there are "black holes" in which time and space are twisted beyond all comprehension. Science, logic and reason teaches us all these things.  We accept them.  This is what logic teaches us.

We also know that we "exist".  We are self-aware.  We have minds that can ponder, and wonder about their own existence.  There are billions of minds on this planet alone.  Each of us created from what?  We don't know, yet we accept this puzzle as "normal".  In fact we accept the whole kit and kaboodle as "perfectly normal".  This is what gets me.  This is what gets my scientific mind.  The universe, creation and "existence" is the biggest paranormal event ever, yet we accept it as perfectly normal. 

If we can accept all of these things, as science forces us to do, then we can literally accept anything.  Absolutely ANYTHING is possible.  Absolutely ANYTHING is normal.  I really don't understand those skeptics who accept the "real world", which is the most fantastic paranormal event ever, and at the same time reject a tiny little thing like ESP as "ridiculous"!  What sort of clear-thinking is that?

To me it's a logical certainty, which follows as clearly as night follows day, that if we can believe in our own existence, then by definition we are literally forced into believing that anything is possibe.  To me it's actually a puzzle that there isn't more ESP activity going on than we see.  As a scientist I would expect to be seeing ESP happening all the time!

I'm absolutely convinced that ESP exists.  I'm not however convinced that life continues after death, but I see it as being a very distinct possibility.  It all seems reasonable to me.  Speaking as a logical and scientific person that is.  I can't really offer you much more to help you with your skepticism.  I have had personal irrefutable verifications of ESP, which are so peculiar that I can not dismiss them, but I won't go into those now.  But you really shouldn't worry about skepticism that much.....!  It's real.  AP exists, we just don't know for sure exactly what it is...

[BadCookie]

Who cares what is real or not sometimes i wake up a wonder how the hell i got here and what is the point its crazy think out side the matrix. We came from nothing ? we are so complex and life .

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6360955016636833908&q=David+Icke

This is how i think to a point i love this guy

i would recomend the movie What the bleep do we know? and just chill and enjoy life free from Religion and its crap 

[James S]

Patrick,

Science and logic cannot explain love or hate, yet we know they exist because we experience them. It cannot explain the afterlife, yet all who have had a near death experience know it exists, and more and more evidence is being presented all the time from people conducting investigations into mediumship.

Remember, science is only the orderly arrangement of what, at the moment, appear to be the facts.

Consider recent discoveries in the world of quantum physics which are forcing scientists to completely re-evaluate the way they are looking at our world. Newtonian physics was once thought to be the be-all and end-all of physical mechanics. This is fine if you're looking at things on a molecular level, but once we started looking at things on a particle level, Newtonian laws stopped working.

By all means remain sceptical, and seek to find your own proof and don't just take on something as fact because someone told you to. But don't limit yourself just because you may think something is not logical or scientific, as science and "logic" are forever expanding to take on new information and new knowledge.

Blessings,
James.

[Goldsplinter]

If astral projection is fake for you, than it's fake for you, nothing to discuss or think about...

[BadCookie]

If astral projection is fake for you, than it's fake for you, nothing to discuss or think about...

the fact that we are on something called the internet blows my mind how out of nothingness did i get here

[Montauk109]

I can certainly understand your skeptism. My OBE's happened when I didn't expect them to happen but as I read more of the posts on this message board I see a lot of similarities in my experiences and what happened to me..I am not at the point where I feel I can induce a obe on command, yet.

I have read Albert Taylor's book and I am currently re-reading Robert Monroe's book. My reason for wanting to do a AP..is to confirm the existance of our Inner Being or soul..or whatever words one wants to call it.

[Gandalf]

mjolnir_knight_

You are in a typical negative sceptical thought spiral due to a lack of perceived success.

You need to realise that you are in a downward spiral and you need to break out of it. The reason you are in a downward spiral is because you are having little or no success, leading you to question if it was ever real at all. The reason you are having no success is because you have started on a negative downward spiral. These two aspects reinforce each other.

From your post I can gleam that you have been reading up on sceptical journals and other scientific papers and articles which are by default opposed to the reality of OBEs or anything outside of the 'accepted' scientific view of reality. Believe me, filling your mind with such mind limiting information will in no way cure you of your negative view of OBES.

The reason you had so much success to begin with was because your mind was completely open to the reality that was presented to it, you did not question it but accepted it. You need to get your mind back to that original state if you wish to progress.

Remember that many of these scientific journals are not taking a truly scientific approach in my opinion. None of the author's statements are based on personal experience. In my view the only way to verify something is through direct experience.. this is the true scientific method.

Many so called scientific journals are actualy not scientific in their approach but offer biased judgements based on personal opinion.

For example, scientists recently published an article which talked about how experiments had highlighted areas of the brain which become active during obe states. The article said that this was 'bad news' for those who thought that astral experiences were 'real' and involved a reality beyond the human brain.

In my view this is a huge jump and is not a true scientific statement but a personal opinon. Just because scientists have managed to observe the physical effects on the brain of an obe experience, this in no way implies that the experience is not real. For example, consider the very likely possiblity that the brain is the interface between the mind and the body: then we would expect to observe some kind of physical effect on the brain during an obe. The point is, scientists just don't know so they shouldnt then go on to give pronouncements based on personal opinons. This is not the role of science.

Basically, you may have developed some skepticism towards obes, but I would advise developing some scepticism towards 'scientific' viewpoints. Don't listen to others who have never experienced OBE phenomena themselves. What do they know? Explore these possibilities for yourself with a TRUE open mind and see what happens. Break the spiral of negative sceptical thinking!

[catmeow]

Good post Gandalf. It is my opinion that many scientists start with a mindset to disprove OBE's and then devise experiments with the (unconscious) intention of doing so.  The results obtained from these experiments are never conclusive one way or the other, but can certainly be interpreted in either direction depending upon the mindset (bias) of the experimenters.  So the results are interpreted negatively, popularised in the media and that's that! OBE's aren't real!

I actually doubt the intelligence of these "scientists" since as in Gandalf's example, it only requires a modicum of working brain cells to see that the results can be interpreted either way.  Yet the negative conclusion is drawn.  So that immediately discredits the experimenters and hence the experiment.  If we can't trust experimenters to make unbiased judgements, we can't trust them to run the experiment correctly either.  They discredit themselves and invalidate the whole experiment by doing so.

The true scientific approach is one of genuine impartiality.  When we have that we will make progress.

[EqualThoughts]

dude how can you doubt yurself like that. youve already experienced more than one obe. if you have experienced it then only you can know the reality of that experience. what next man, will you doubt that youre living right now, doubt your own past experiences in life???wtf

peace

[Enoch]

If you have done it once you will NEVER be a non-believer.

[Lucid_Learner]

I agree with Enoch, if you've experienced AP then how can you become a skeptic when you've experienced the proof... I think your question should be more like "Please help me AP again".

Maybe your beginning to think your AP was a one off and because you haven't induced one since your starting to doubt whether you actually did it. My advice is, don't doubt it and keep trying. It will come again 

[Enoch]

Do you practice? I mean do you meditate? and do you keep a journal? Also would be good to have reality checks..I know they seem silly but when one wakes you up while dreaming you will be happy you did it. many little things keep you going strong...but we all have down times. 

[Gandalf]

I agree with Enoch, if you've experienced AP then how can you become a skeptic when you've experienced the proof
---------------------------------------------

Actually, it is possible for this to happen if somebody does not have any results for ages. Eventially the doubt and scepticism do start to creep in, especially when the individual is constantly bombarded with sceptical reports and the general cynicism of modern society. It is amazing how quickly the human mind forgets things. That is why it is important to keep practicing all the time.

[Enoch]

I can see that..Guess in my own case it would just have to be a very long time.
If there anything we can do to help let us know.

[Lucid_Learner]

I agree with Enoch, if you've experienced AP then how can you become a skeptic when you've experienced the proof
---------------------------------------------

Actually, it is possible for this to happen if somebody does not have any results for ages. Eventially the doubt and scepticism do start to creep in, especially when the individual is constantly bombarded with sceptical reports and the general cynicism of modern society. It is amazing how quickly the human mind forgets things. That is why it is important to keep practicing all the time.

Yeh it makes sense now, at the time of the AP though i'm sure it would have been a certainty that it was real.
However after some time with no results you would start doubting yourself and perhaps even start to think you made it up in your mind. Good Point Gandalf

Keep trying I'm sure they will come back to you! 

[Zante]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/08/MNGNELI3IO1.DTL

Skeptic or not, science is starting to catch up. Don't be disheartened by the researcher's comments though, he's just poking around and, for lack of a better term, pulling conclusions out of his anus.

[catmeow]

Well, er um yes, well said Zante.

There are a few threads on Blankes work in the board, and I did critique him quite a lot in this thread;

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=22481.0

At the time he had only one subject.  Now it seems he has found a second subject who had OBE-like sensations.  This really isn't good enough as far as science is concerned and doesn't prove much.  It's not peer-reviewed, authenticated, repeated by other experimenters, repeated in neurologically normal subjects, etc etc. And any conclusions that OBE's are imaginary are unwarranted. All it suggests is that he may have found a way to eject epileptics out of their bodies.

Actually I hope he has, and it gets studied more.  But as far as debunking OBE's - not at all!

[Enoch]

Science has a long way to go before it catches up with thousands of years of dreamers and spiritual studies. 
The only thing that really bothers me are the ones who say that its not possible and not real. Well ok if my soul is not real than so be it. But really just test it for yourselves. epecially those scientists that have to base all on facts or else its not true.
No one and i mean no one knows enough about the mind and the soul to be a critic. Just as some thought it would be impossible to fly and some swore the world was flat.
 

[catmeow]

I agree, and as I said earlier in this thread, the greatest paranormal event of all time is the simple fact that we are here.  Compared to the miracle, which the physical universe and our existence within it represents, I find it very easy to believe that anything is possible.  In fact to think otherwise seems absurd to me.