Demons!....only exsit in the mind

[majour ka]

If we are to believe that we come from one supreme scource, if we belive that one energy created all that exists in this univeres, and personaly I do.
When did that scource i.e God, decidide to create demons? and why dont they incarnate (obviosly because there is no such thing). I dont believe there is anything in the non physical spirtual planes that dosent incarnate on earth, apart from higher guides and master guides etc, and to be honest does anyone truly believe there are any forms of life of a lower vibration than that which we find on our earth.
Demons only exist if fancyiful minds. Can any one evidance any different?

[Enoch]

Demons are as real as angels, jesus, and god.  The lower plains that you travel while dreaming will verify this fact. Lucifer has many demons and in return his demons have legions that follow. If you believe in angels and god than certainly you can see the fine balance of good and evil that exists everywhere you look. The lower vibrational states are some of the easiest to reach for U.S citizens(and most of the world really). Hmmm wonder why? 

[majour ka]

Demons are as real as angels, jesus, and god.  The lower plains that you travel while dreaming will verify this fact. Lucifer has many demons and in return his demons have legions that follow. If you believe in angels and god than certainly you can see the fine balance of good and evil that exists everywhere you look. The lower vibrational states are some of the easiest to reach for U.S citizens(and most of the world really). Hmmm wonder why? 

Who said i believe in Angels? and why is it easiest for U.S citiezens to reach and find Demons, do the live in Kentucky?
So where are they, if they are of a lower vibration then what is their purpose and what is their piont?
If lucifer is the opposite of God, then Gods creates and Gods creations progress through incarnation and spirtual growth. Then what is the purpose of an oppsite conciousness? ie Mr lucifer? to destroy? and hinder creation? and spiritual progress? then that would be suicidal for Lucifer because he/she would be destroying them selves.....? And lets imagine Lucifer sucseeded where would hell exist for it truly is the opposite of god then ultimatly the destruction it creates would mean it would have no where to exist! Demons and hell are in the mind

[Enoch]

Demons and hell are part of the mind yes. In return for being part of our minds they exist. Just as this world exists through our beliefs and the energies that we can see and feel.
It makes perfect sense that lucifer would try to prevent spiritual progress. It matters very little if humans realize spirit to satan. In fact it makes his job easier. You have one but never spend time in life to aknowledge it. So you have a stagnant spirit and are filled with the sins of this plane. Gluttony,lust, greed, materilaism, you name it. Yes the united states is very good at being sinners with little regard to there spirit and growing up under a "lost" government that only makes gains for every soul satan recieves. Our earth is a beuatiful place but its also full of lucifers minions. It is but one of gods mansions that we live in but we should not be so grounded that all we see is the gifts the world offers and not spirit.
If you are a dreamer the lower states can be reached by leaving (obe) through the lower chakra. And also by just living as most people do it is natural to not even realize we are but a step away from hell. In return though we are but a step from astral or the higher planes as well.
For me to say this has quite a bit of meaning really. Because im no christian by any stretch of the imagination, yet i know that god and jesus are here for all of us.
Dont be fooled just because you dont see demons. They are here and some are physically here. They thrive and become more powerful by the sins of man.   Men can also be vessels for the demonic and the angelic. But again satan works very subtly he does not need you to be a mass murderer he just needs you to sin enough that you are his. 
For more information on the higher and lower planes and demons read up on the tree of life, the tree of knowledge, and solomons writings. 

[Rob]

Demons only exist if fancyiful minds. Can any one evidance any different?

Oh I could provide a whole host of experiences I have had, some subtle and some less so, with negative entities, as well as with a number of other classes of entities, some experiences relating to me some also involving other family members and obvious physical effects on me and them. But I doubt it would count for much in your mind, besides I've said it all before on these forums. I will also assume then that your opinions are based upon just that and not experience. You seem a little too keen to bring things down to intellectual arguments.

However, I will say that it is the height of arrogance to presume anything about what may or may not exist in the universe based upon the argument that "God created it". It presumes an understanding of the mind of God, and a similar level of omniscience would be required just so say what has has never existed or happened on this planet.
However, if you want to get into intellectual debate on this subject, why should demons not exist, given that psychopaths, murderers and rapists exist in the physical? Its really not such a jump.

Mate, its a bloody enormous and excessively complex universe out there!!! Dont get caught in little man thinking of "I think its like this that etc this is possible this is not blah blah blah". I once heard the term "intellectual masturbation" applied to this sort of thinking, and I think it is apt  . IMO its probably an unwise thing to do for ascended masters let alone us inexperienced little children, but hey I guess it leads to learning so go ahead and knock yourself out! Yeah suppose I have probably been down similar roads in the past so I do understand the desire to quantify and specify as much of the universe as you can. Just please do bear in mind that yours and mine are at best educated guesses, especially when it comes to such vast subjects as the one you are tackling (ie the structure and possibilities of the universe)

<grins>

Rob

[CFTraveler]

I'll try not to sidetrack the issue, since I have no opinion on the main argument-

If lucifer is the opposite of God,

That was never the idea.  Lucifer (Venus) was one of God's brightest angels, and it gets confused with Satan (Saturn) which is a title which means "Prosecutor" or "Adversary".  Satan is supposed to be sent to us by God to accuse us of whatever we're guilty of-He's supposed to be man's adversary, not God's, according to the Bible Scholars I've read.
Sorry for the interruption.

[Nay]

[Stillwater]

Hmm...

This arguement seems to take a similar form to the proverbial one asked by inquisitive young children
"If God is so good, why does he let bad stuff happen? Why did he let the dog get hit by a car?"

The response that a number of philosophers offer to this problem, known properly as the "problem of the existence of evil", or some variant, is the "doctrine of freewill".

This idea goes something like, "God loved the world so much, that he wanted to give the best thing he could think of, the freedom do make choices: to do, feel, create, alter, etc. as one pleases. "He" knew that to do this would allow for the introduction of evil into the world, as anyone could obviously choose ill as easily as "good", but the greatness of this gift in "His" mind outweighed the total sum of suffering and torment that it would by necessity introduce into a world without choice."

Hence you have those who have chosen ill. They are not evil per se, meaning they are not intrinsically evil to their core and incapable of anything else, yet they have still made choices that result in suffering for others and themselves.

I ask you to excuse me, for the language that this idea necessitates is not my usual mode of describing "divinity", but rather the form the arguement generally takes, with my own corallaries added in as footnotes; even so, I think it is a strong and simple answer to this problem.

[EqualThoughts]

Demons only exist if fancyiful minds. Can any one evidance any different?

How can you be sure that demons are the only thing that exists only in your mind, maybe everything else does too...

-Thoughts

[majour ka]

Oh I could provide a whole host of experiences I have had, some subtle and some less so, with negative entities, as well as with a number of other classes of entities, some experiences relating to me some also involving other family members and obvious physical effects on me and them. But I doubt it would count for much in your mind, besides I've said it all before on these forums. I will also assume then that your opinions are based upon just that and not experience. You seem a little too keen to bring things down to intellectual arguments.

Mate, its a bloody enormous and excessively complex universe out there!!! Dont get caught in little man thinking of "I think its like this that etc this is possible this is not blah blah blah". I once heard the term "intellectual masturbation" applied to this sort of thinking, and I think it is apt  . 

Lol Rob the first bit of your reply sounds aptly like a bit of your "intellectual masterbation" that you were telling us about, and its never wise asume anything!
I base my open minded views on personal expirience and learning, and dont pressume to know the answer, the evidance I have expirienced has led me to my belliefs.
So these demons you have had first hand expirience of, what did they look like?

[Nay]

I base my open minded views on personal expirience and learning, and dont pressume to know the answer, the evidance I have expirienced has led me to my belliefs.

Yes.  Which brings us to why do some of us experience demons, negs, ETs and other horrifying things and some of us don't?   My belief is because that is what we've created, for whatever reason.  I think one way is, we surround ourselves with whatever tickles our fancy...and by that I mean...we think, eat, sleep, talk, and walk about that tickle factor.

I don't like watching negative movies or even news report too much, but some people thrive on that stuff....  How much you wanna bet the person that thrives on that, is the one having "problems" with demons?

[jub jub]

Yes.  Which brings us to why do some of us experience demons, negs, ETs and other horrifying things and some of us don't?   My belief is because that is what we've created, for whatever reason.  I think one way is, we surround ourselves with whatever tickles our fancy...and by that I mean...we think, eat, sleep, talk, and walk about that tickle factor.

I don't like watching negative movies or even news report too much, but some people thrive on that stuff....  How much you wanna bet the person that thrives on that, is the one having "problems" with demons?

That makes me wonder if we're opening the doors to our soul when we feed on stuff like that. Garbage in garbage out!

[majour ka]

Yes.  Which brings us to why do some of us experience demons, negs, ETs and other horrifying things and some of us don't?   My belief is because that is what we've created, for whatever reason.  I think one way is, we surround ourselves with whatever tickles our fancy...and by that I mean...we think, eat, sleep, talk, and walk about that tickle factor.

I don't like watching negative movies or even news report too much, but some people thrive on that stuff....  How much you wanna bet the person that thrives on that, is the one having "problems" with demons?

Hi, thats pretty much what i was trying to say, but you made a much better job of saying it than I did lol! thank you Marcus. I dont start the post to be hostile or provocotive, only I went to an open circle for mediums recently who seemed to have a fixiation with evel spirits and bieng taken over, which i found odd? and a little diturbing, but everybody is entitled to thier own beliefs. As the night went on it became more obviouse that people less developed psychicly shall we say were the ones who seemed to be drawn into the whole idea the most. Now im not saying that people who are clairvoyant havent expienced unwanted things, because how could I know, although I doubt they do, but in my mediumship and astral travelles I havent personally come up against anything nasty, and dosent realy fit anywhere realisticly in my belief system.

It would seem to me that if demons or what ever did exist, that those of us who do haeling and are following a more spiritual path etc would be a threat to thier cause, and as such as such we would be prime targets. I think there is enough diffulcty in this physical world to just live prosper and enoy our selves, with out the help of demonic enteties, thats where I believe the fine balance lies that Rob was pointing out, right here, in our minds. two cents any way God bless M x

[Nay]

I think there is enough diffulcty in this physical world to just live prosper and enoy our selves, with out the help of demonic enteties, thats where I believe the fine balance lies that Rob was pointing out, right here, in our minds.

That's how I feel.  Most of the first part of my existence in this physical life...sucked.  I felt pain, saw pain, lived pain, and finally escaped pain.  My experience's rarely are negative and if they are it is because I chose it by thinking about negative aspects for several days at a time.  I have a post somewhere here..LOL. about a test I did on what happens when we dwell on negativeness.  I shall go find it.....

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php?topic=20881.0  There it is.  If you haven't seen it yet, I found it interesting.. I also found some of the responses...interesting and telling.

[Astir]

Fun's over.
There is no evil.
I feel...that there is positive and there is negative in all things, and it is a balance that is fixed into position. You just don't always see it. You see only and precisely what you want to see.

We like to think there is ultimate evil so we can know and believe in the  ultimate good, but we haven't that either. To me it seems whatever primordial belief of evil there was in this world...spiraled out of control and spawned a life of its own. As thriving as the human race are the ideas, the definitions and concepts of what is evil. And of these ideas -- mere thoughts -- is born the desires and actions to rid of it. To destroy it, to purify everything. Evil perpetuates evil. But evil, there is not.

Takes time to get comfortable with it.
We're all as confused as deaf bats and life's a walk in the fog.

[Nay]

Why would you say fun is over?  Are you one of those ppl who thrive on the negative side of things? 

You might want to say this is your opinion because I do not need to believe in some ultimate evil so I can believe in the ultimate good.  IMO, we are always 'born' with good in our hearts..it's what the person does with it that matters.  It's obvious to me that there are alot of negative people out there walking the earth today.  It seems though, they are being found out more than ever now....2012???...

[Astir]

Not at all.

I have seen some people enjoy a good witch hunt...but there's never any real witch. People do thrive on negativity. When I spoke of ultimate good and evils I was refering to religion in a manner. For example, no one would read the bible if it was entirely gray area. You may be able to understand things as you have described. Others, they look for proof.

I really believe there is no more evil than there ever was. There is only media that reports only negativity because it makes for a better story. You don't see much of the good. Nobody does, but it is still there and always will be.

...And I did say it was my opinion when I said I feel in the 3rd line down after the first two statements. I tend to make statements at the very beginning of every opinion I inject into conversation so you know automatically what I see. It's just my way, I am frank. I'm not negative or trying to be...anything really, other than myself. 

[Enoch]

Balance is the key. Jeesh dont any of you listen.? Ok some of you do so dont smite me...lol
Really seriously in ALL HONOSTY. There is a god and a devil. There is good and evil. Dont any of you have experiance in dreaming at all? Have none of you ever met a demon? How do they look lol they look like us (or whatever they want) but normally just like us. Come on open your eyes and your minds and your hearts. All the bibles in existence are not lying.....All the religions of the world are not wrong. See for Jeaash im hanging out at an astral forum and none of you can say you have net a demon or a angel? What the heck you been doing? Are you just all talk? There is no REAL dreamer among you? 

[Rob]

Few points

It would seem to me that if demons or what ever did exist, that those of us who do haeling and are following a more spiritual path etc would be a threat to thier cause, and as such as such we would be prime targets. I think there is enough diffulcty in this physical world to just live prosper and enoy our selves, with out the help of demonic enteties, thats where I believe the fine balance lies that Rob was pointing out, right here, in our minds. two cents any way God bless M x

Yup, thats true, and it happens. However, there is also the premise that "the most clever thing the devil did was convince mankind he did not exist". So both point of view have some truth, as is often the case.

Lol Rob the first bit of your reply sounds aptly like a bit of your "intellectual masterbation" that you were telling us about, and its never wise asume anything!
I base my open minded views on personal expirience and learning, and dont pressume to know the answer, the evidance I have expirienced has led me to my belliefs.
So these demons you have had first hand expirience of, what did they look like?

When I say intellectual masturbation I am talking about building castles in the sky, ie basing your beliefs upon a lack of evidence, pure speculation, and lets not forget pre-existing desires to believe the world works in a certain way eh? I have no need to do this with respect to negs etc. It is possible that I am wrong about where you are coming from, if so sorry, but I doubt I am.
What do they look like? Well I have never met a "demon" I dont think, but lesser negative entitie(s) yes. That depends only on how they want to present themselves, as Enoch said, and is somewhat irrelevant. However for me they were once like shadows in the pitch black, once like a very black figure standing at the bottom of my bed, etc etc. I have met other people with similar experiences who told me about them with little prompting, and others who talk about similar things ie spiders snakes etc etc - and IMO the collective consciousness argument does not cut it even close.

I don't like watching negative movies or even news report too much, but some people thrive on that stuff....  How much you wanna bet the person that thrives on that, is the one having "problems" with demons?

Wouldnt bet too much if I were you, I only just got a TV the other day (literally) and way prefer uplifting movies to the dark ones. Oh, and martial arts  .

Well said Enoch, this stuff does crop up in every religion. The other day I saw a hindu painting with angels in it, it was breathtakingly beautiful.

Rob

[Rob]

.... oh and CFTraveler - fantastic point of view, I have never heard it before, very interesting. Thanks for posting.

[Enoch]

Thanks rob. Im sort of stunned here really.
Here is just one more fact that good and evil exist. In Genesis adam and eve ate from a tree. The tree was what? It was the tree of knowledge OF GOOD AND EVIL. God did not want us to have to worry about balance in life. He prefered that we not know.
You see Lucifer is mad at all of us. He hates the fact that we are eternal (as angels and demons are) and the fact that we in the end would end up just like him (angelic and live forever with god) as he did was just to much. Why do you think that we have the ten commandments and the seven deadly sins? Because these are the temptations. These are literally the demon that tempt us every day of our lives. The original sin. Now look at our world and if you cant tell me who's in control than you have some serious issues.
God means for us to live in this world not OF this world. We are truly not of this earth. It is as i have said but one of many of the lords mansions.   

[Nay]

That is your belief enoch.. I don't believe in the devil, satan, lucifer..whatever the name.   In my beliefs there is no outside force tempting you everyday to go over the speed limit, steal something from the store, cheat on your mate...etc.  It is YOUSELF..

[Astir]

Balance is the key. Jeesh dont any of you listen.? Ok some of you do so dont smite me...lol
Really seriously in ALL HONOSTY. There is a god and a devil. There is good and evil. Dont any of you have experiance in dreaming at all? Have none of you ever met a demon? How do they look lol they look like us (or whatever they want) but normally just like us. Come on open your eyes and your minds and your hearts. All the bibles in existence are not lying.....All the religions of the world are not wrong. See for Jeaash im hanging out at an astral forum and none of you can say you have net a demon or a angel? What the heck you been doing? Are you just all talk? There is no REAL dreamer among you? 

I don't believe balance is the key. I believe it just is.

I've dealt with some annoying negs. Some terribly frightening ones too...no demons.

It isn't our sight, but our interpretation. The differing views here account for each individuals interpretation. It isn't a matter of sight or being a real dreamer. I could say the same about you, that you are a fraud if you cannot see the good, and the beauty in this life as well. 

When I fall asleep, I wake up inside of that sleep and I stay awake until I rise in the morning...I don't ever stop seeing, dreaming and projecting.

[Enoch]

I love this planet and it is beautiful. These are not things that are up for interpretation unless you disbelieve in god. And trust me he exists.

[Astir]

I can't trust you in this case. I'm sorry. I trust only what I feel...and I wouldn't say I don't believe in God. Or angels for that matter...