High IQ OBE Correlation?

[bindi]

It seems a little elitist to think that you have to be 'intelligent'  to AP. I cannot see any relationship - probably because I have a lower IQ than the rest of you!
A though maybe is that  a large portion of the worlds high IQ'ers would be professionals such as Polititions (well..), Judges, Scientists, etc...who would think that the mere concept of AP is ridiculous and illogical.
Also another thought may be that the lower the IQ the more likely to achieve deep relaxation (their brain would not be so active trying to solve the worlds problems) and possibly more open minded to such concepts.
By the way my IQ is 124, I have a AP experience at least once a month and recall 80% of my dreams every night....
Bindi

[Gandalf]

This topic is interesting but I think we have to remember that it is *not* universely recognised that IQ = intelligence and the IQ test is discredited in many research circles. This is because outside factors can affect the result, like how tired you are, nervousness, other things on your mind (although you might not be aware of them), underlying subconcious reasons which may interfere with the test and so on.
This was found due to the amount of people getting differing results on separate occasions.
I just wanted to make this point because there seems to be a notion here that IQ is universally recognised as = intelligence, however many researchers in the field are widely critical of the standard IQ test. However, they realise its popularity with the general public and some institutions, esp in that it has been widely usurped by elitest ideals.
BTW I have never taken any kind of IQ test although I graduated with a good grade form university, I think my life experience and what I learned there is a higher indicator to me how 'intelligent' I am rather than relying on an essentially unreliable test.

Regards,
Douglas

[Greytraveller]

There is another idea that I would like to introduce into this discussion. That is the concept of Mind being separate from, and greater than, Brain.
    If intelligence consists of the physical brain And something else, which is usually termed Mind for lack of a better word, then IQ would not necessarily be an adequate indicator of a person's aptitude for out of body experiences. Rather than narrowly limit intelligence by an IQ (Intelligence Quota) rating it might be more accurate to measure intelligence as an ability to perceive a broader field of data (both physical and super-physical). I am not a scientist or a psychologist so will not attempt an in-depth discussion/explanation. This idea does make sense, however.
    Here is another expression of the Mind over Brain assumption. Ghost chasers are people who incorporate super-physical data into their understanding of reality. So, those people who chase ghosts could probably be considered more intelligent than scientists who must rely solely on physical data to understand reality.

[Leyla]

I do not mean to imply that astral projection is meant for an "elite class" of "intelligencia", or some sort of exclusionary nonsense.

I honestly think our brain chemistry must be different. In the same way that schizophrenics are often highly intelligent people. No one accuses them of being a snobbish clique.

They hear voices and see things similar to the way we do. I have often suspected that a schizophrenic is an astral projector gone-awry.

After my first astral experiences I was convinced I had the disorder. But after speaking with a kind doctor, she suggested I  try esoteric study rather than anti-psychotics. So I did.


I believe that everyone projects- even the mentally slow. Certianly is a fundemental right of everyone. But yet very few people remember the experience. We are obviously different somehow.

Just have a look around this board. Aren't we mostly an articulate, insightful bunch?

Does anyone have a better suggestion for what sets us apart?

[Leyla]

Before anyone can leap in to cry "Smart people are just more curious about AP" I'd like to state again that I, for one, did not seek AP out. It was spontaneous. I even resented it as an interference at first. I did not go looking for it.

More spiritual? Hmm. I don't know. I don't want to take a "Holier than thou" approach to my fellow man, basking in my own spiritual superiority.

I'm learning alongside everyone else, and know plenty of non AP people who are trying just as hard as I am to develop themselves spiritually. So it's not that they just "don't care."

Therefore brain chemistry and/or high IQ sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

[Squeek]

Well, All's i know is this seems impossible to me because I get distracted from the task at hand way too easily with something that I didn't solve or finish in school...

[Chris]

I find it absolutely fascinating that in the absense of any real scientific study to determine one way or the other, some of you seem so very confident that you know there is absolutely no correllation between IQ and OBE frequency and control.  By all means share your opinions and ideas... but try to at least keep an open mind... this is a sort of open minded type of forum wouldn't you think?

Warm regards,

Chris

[Gandalf]

Well, I think that people find this topic potentialy dangerous because by linking in themes of IQ and OBE, this can lead to OBE being usuped by elitist ideals. I know that's NOT what you are trying to do, but what Im saying is that if you go down this road, then there will be those who WOULD use this to create an elitist stance, which shouldn be encouraged, as this is too far an important area to be relagated to an imagined 'intelligensia'. The current IQ test has been largely usurped by elitest ideals IMO.

What I find disturbing from reading this thread is that as soon as one person broadcast their own IQ rating, there was an almost desperate urge by other posters to broadcast their own IQ ratings on the board.

I appreciate you question however, but I don't believe there is a fundamental connection, the only difference that might occur is that such experiences might be recognised and remembered.
However, I have found people from all walks of life who have had such experiences, I certainly have not heard of it happening more often in 'higher IQ' people, (if we really must make such a crass distinction - check your psychology department, you'll find that the standard IQ test is discredited in many circles anyway).

Regards,
Douglas

[MJ-12]

vd

[Chris]

Well, let me help clarify the issue of elitist thinking and this very informal study of IQ correllation to OBE.  Intelligence and/or awareness does not equal good or better in terms of human or universal worth.  Some of the most evil persons who have lived have been brilliant people... very aware... and yet willing to use that awareness to control others for their own selfish purposes.  Even a high degree of spiritual awareness does not equal "good".  A person who is in this physical life challenged or retarded by physical mechanisms that prevent his soul expressing it's intelligence fully in this world, may truly be a much better person with a much more beautiful heart than my own.  This is not a question about worth... it is a question about relationships and factors.  It serves no one to blind yourself to relationships between various factors just because you are afraid some may twist them to their own designs.  you will never be able to prevent that.  Anyone can twist anything to fit their own agendas.  

Respectfully,

Chris

[Gandalf]

What I disagree with here is that people are taking an IQ rating as an absolute measure of someone's intelligence. Some circles even insist that IQ is an indicator of 'absolute intelligence'.
Well, this is just utter tosh, all the IQ rating does is rate your *current* ability with problem solving questions.
It is a well known fact that if you take a test and are not happy with the result, but then go away and practice, you will achieve a much higher score.
In fact this ploy is used all the time by people who wish to boast a high score - they practice a lot and take test after test.
This means that all the IQ test has proved is that you have trained up your mind to deal with 'problem solving' puzzles - it is not a test of absolute intelligence - it may be a marker of *current* ability in a few certain areas, but this can be improved upon.

Douglas

[cainam_nazier]

It could very well be possible that it is not exactly your IQ that allows for the OBE precess but gives you a better chance at success.  This being that a person with a higher IQ than the norm, and who is actively persueing the OBE process, is easier taught.  They can get a better understanding of the task at hand and thus try more situations to suit thier specific needs.  

This being more the case of using ones intelligence to counter a possible lack of natural ability.

It also could be argued that a person of lower intelligence would have an easier time because they are not hindered by being exsessivly analitical.  That they more easily accept what has happened and do not seek explinations for it and as such are more familiar with it.

And then where does one look if they don't know what they are looking for?

[Leyla]

The Solution:

I've seen the moderators post many polls on this board.
Why not satisfy everyone's curiosity with an *anonamous* questionnaire?
It would consist of an online IQ test, followed by a few questions about the frequency and clarity of their OBE's. And any other questions they think would be pertinent.
This isn't about what makes us "better."
I really want to find out what makes us "different."

Having that knowledge could help us:
1) Prove the existance of OBE's
2) Learn new and better ways to teach others (if possible)

[Gandalf]

I would honestly be surprised if any frequent lucid dreamer/OBE'er tested under 130. Few will admit to it for fear of seeming immodest, puffed-up, or vain.
Leyla
-----------------------------------------------

This kind of sweeping statement annoyed me so much that going against all my previous postings here about IQ, I decided to check out my own for the first time.
After taking 4 different internet iq tests, my IQ always scores around 126.

Now I AM a fairly regular obe'er and lucid dreamer, this ability has developed over time since I started sharing experiences with other people on this forum.
As you can see my IQ is *under* 130, contrary to Leyla's sweeping statement about how she would be suprised 'if any frequent lucid dreamer/OBE'er tested under 130'. I obe or lucid dream quite often, I can regulate with a fair amount of accuracy how often I have them and my control has increased over the past year or so, indicating that obe is a skill that can be learned through hard graft.

We should really try to avoid sweeping statements and also the irritating if all to human tendancy to try to catagorise and compartmentalise everything, like saying that good control of obe tends to occur with people of 130+ IQ - nicely catagorised but probably not really true, certainly not in my case.

Douglas

[Leyla]

Lets not split hairs here, Gandalf.
126 is a mere four points shy of genius level.
You've only helped to prove my point.

[Adrian]

Greetings Leyla,

I understand your point of view, but it would not be productive or even justified in my view to attempt to reconcile OBE ability with nominal IQ scores. OBE, like IQ tests, has many variations and interpreted results, which, at the final analysis are very personal.

As I mentioned before - the ability to expand consciosness to interact with the Astral and higher realms is the inheritance of every son and daughter of the Divine Providence, and which ability has been lost over the millenia in a sea of materialism, creed and dogma. It could indeed be demonstrated that often the people with the highest IQ's are the most materialistic, and therefore further from the ancient truths and realities. I am not saying that is the case with people here I must add for obvious reasons - vis - people are here.

People of ancient times had much more contact with the Astral than is the case nowadays, as do many Spiritual peoples such as the native American Indians today. How do you measure their IQ - indeed why would anyone want to?

So for these reasons among others I am not prepared to setup a poll which seeks to means test Astral projection ability against IQ which might erroneously cause people to think they have to obtain a high IQ score before they are allowed to pursue abilities that are the right of every human being regardless of material attributes.

Thanks to everyone for an interesting topic nevertheless []

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Leyla]

For some reason I am not being made clear.

1) I am not attempting to hijack OBE for the "intelligencia."
2) I have said *repeatedly* that OBE is everyone's divine right
3) My questions is: what makes us different?

Why do we remember, when others do not?

Whether you set up a test or not does not matter. And I am not asking you to.

But I do know that if a group of OBE'rs walked into a scientific lab the first thing they would do is give us all IQ tests, along with brain scans, and try to determine what about the chemistry in our heads is different.

I only now that it can't be curiosity and practice. Because many of us did not seek this out or practice it.

Lets face it. No one really knows what exactly is going on with us. And apparently everyone is too scared to find out.

[Chris]

Adrian,

I'm curious as to how it is you KNOW that peoples of the past had more contact with the Astral than people today?  Did you take a poll? Did a guide tell you? ... or is it simply an opinion.  Certainly there is no survey data available from the past to make such an assertion and yet there it is you made it.  We must really be careful about our statements... especially when they are just opinions. There is a big difference between science and theory, fact or opinion.

It is certainly possible that people of the past had more contact... it's equally possible that more people today have astral contact.  I don't know.  Writing from the past are very scarce in actuality.  Most of the vast libraries of ancient wisdom and knowlege were pilfered and destroyed leaving us with mere fragments of what once existed.  Indeed my guess is that the proportions haven't changed much.

Chris

[cainam_nazier]

It is highly evident that the people in the past were more likely to have OBE's.  There are thousands of accounts of people having visions, prophetic dreams, waking, dreams, telling the future, dream walking, and so on.  These are just other words for OBE's and or Lucid dreams.  

But as you read these accounts it is very apparent that each experience was very special to that person.  You can tell by the way it was described.  Most often as something that was not normal every day, but normal enough to know that it was different and it could be talked about without being burned at the stake.

[clandestino]

Hi Chris ! I'd be inclined to agree with Adrian.

Granted, there is no survey evidence available, but as Cainam states, historical accounts of "astral phenomena" do appear to outweigh modern day accounts.

Furthermore, these astral goings-on do appear to be more frequent in aboriginal societies than in the developed world. (I don't have any scientific evidence for that but I'm sure I could dig some up).

Another point - astral phenomena are held in higher regard by tribes and native societies, compared with modern day man. The dreams that we wake up and quickly forget are viewed as a reality by other people.

I think that there are less astral phenomena reported by "city dwellers" vs "tribal Indians" simply because of environmental factors....as Adrian puts it "a sea of materialism, creed and dogma"( ! nice quote there)....

But perhaps Leyla & Chris do have a point, is there something different in the chemical make-up / brains of some individuals, that will allow them to experience astral phenomena more frequently than others ??

I'll be darned if i know!

[Chris]

Clandestino,

I'll respectfully disagree with you.  As I mentioned there are actually very few writings which describe astral experiences from ancient history in comparison with the uncountable number of books printed on the subject today.  That doesn't take into account the personal experiences exchanged by innumerable people around the world today via discussion boards such as this and email, as well as the innumerable accounts of near death experiences around the world.  I think you guys have a "perception" that there were more in the past, but that perception may not be accurate and is certainly not based on physical evidence.  If your perception is based on some information given to you by higher sources I'm willing to take that into consideration and would be interested to hear about the encounters and what other information was provided.

Chris

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

I believe it highly likely that Astral experiences have been part of the evolution of mankind from the very earliest times. The cave paintings around the world are almost certainly Shaman pictorially describing what they saw and its meaning while in expanded states of consciousness. Astral travel is still very common today among various cultures around the world, such as the native Americans.

The reasons we tend to hear more about Astral travel these days include the following reasons:

1) Astral travel is very much part of the inheritance of every human being, and the ancients thought nothing of it - it was a part of their lives, especially the shaman and other tribal specialists. Materialism increasingly veiled the ability of Astral travel from most of humanity, and that is why it is of so much interest today.

2) Modern communications such as the Internet has enabled people from all over the world to discuss Astral travel, and which gives the impression that it is a relatively new ability, and, e.g. somehow coupled to IQ.

I certainly believe that the Internet will be the catalyst for more people taking an interest in Astral travel, but it will likely remain hidden from the masses until such time as materialism and religion undergo a transformation, and which will occur with the realisation of Spiritual truths - task of which several great Masters have been here to convey over the millenia and will happen sooner or later.

Whether Astral ability is tangibly linked to nominal IQ is another matter. It is understandable however that those who can both Astral travel and claim a high IQ will acknowledge such a connection []

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Leyla]

Could it be possible that Cainam, Clandisto and Adrian have all read the same book, which put forth an argument that ancient people had more OBE's?

Primitive peoples are more accepting of mystical phenomenon, and thus more likely to talk and write about it. Much more so than us who are flotsam and jetsam in the sea of materialism creed and dogma.
At times I have felt that I am leading a secret double life.

Two months ago I lost all credibility with the man I loved when he found out my secret. People who claim visions are either frauds or crackpots. Since I am not a fraud he decided I was a crackpot. I left him. I am all the more guarded now.

Perhaps the author had an agenda for wanting to belive that OBE having people are becoming more rare and thus special.

[cainam_nazier]

Ahh maybe, but I don't read much.  To me it just seems logical based on history.  More so when you look into the history of certain cultures and thier religions.


Adrain,

I know I never made that connection but I see it is possible for one to do so.  I actually didn't think my IQ was all that highm I am some what of the slow one in my group of friends.



But just to look at all sides, because I am a Libra.  It could also be argued that also looking through the history of other cultures and religions that these people who had the occurances were smarter than the average person at that time.  And since the IQ score is based on averages mostly it could be said that if those people where tested they would score higher than thier countrymen.

[Chris]

Lately, I've been testing a theory on myself and wondered if anyone else has noticed any of the same correlations.

I notice a fluctuation or change in my energy on a day by day basis, that very much seems to be effected by the weather.  Doing regular meditation seems to level out this fluctuation, but never the less it remains.  What I've noticed is that during the peaks in my energy, my mind is very aware and "sharp".  This also corresponds to when I have the most out of body experiences and/or spiritual experiences and can remember my dreams vividly as well. During the lows, I feel more dull and slow.  I tend to have fewer spiritual and/or obe related experiences.

An interesting idea came into my head.  Why not see if this perceived change in energy and awareness (spiritual or otherwise) on a daily basis also effected one's IQ score?  So, I took an IQ test on my lowest day, and then when I hit a really high day I took another IQ test, and it was much higher.

So, the last theory I was interested in testing is to ask how many of you have at least fairly regular (at least once a month) OBE experiences?  How much control do you have etc, and what is your average IQ?

A possible theory is that IQ does not measure intelligence.  It simply measures awareness, which might correspond to the level of focus and/or energy transformed into the body from the soul.  People can actively raise their IQ in part by raising their awareness by learning to perceive, focus on, and transform non-physical energies, as well as open up greater communication between the physical body and the higher-self (or soul).

Anyway, just some thoughts.  Thanks for listening and/or participating if you so choose.

Chris