Women & Islam...

[AmbientSound]

The laws decreeing death for women who are raped, want a divorce, or who wish to marry who they choose are unjust. I don't care what ANY Muslim book says or how long it has been going on. It is unjust. Period. End of story. There is nothing left to argue about. This phenomenon needs to stop, now, and so does the practice of genital mutilation.

[AmbientSound]

I'm not trying to turn this into a game of 'let's bash the Muslims,' nor am I making accusations against anyone here, but I just had a thought I wanted to share and discuss (I suppose it could also translate into a question I am asking). I perceive that there is a discrepancy with a concept mentioned in other threads about Islam that I have read: the idea that Muslims are free because they have surrendered to God (Allah), while non-Muslims are slaves under the rule of man.

First, what is the person joining surrendering? In other words, what are they giving up when they become a Muslim? I have only heard the word 'surrender' used in the context of war or conflict. Is there a war or conflict (even if only metaphorical) in which the person is surrendering? If so, who is involved?

Second, if Muslims are truly free, then why is anyone free to become a Muslim without fear of endangerment to their physical existence, but no one is free of the possible threat that someone will come after them to kill them- even if they move half-way around the world- for leaving? I'm always hearing/reading things in the news about people- more often women- who are killed because they choose to leave the religion and marry someone of their own choosing, or they want to experience a different way of life forbidden in Islamic holy scripture. This does not seem fair, just, kind, or necessary to me. If they are leaving, it is because they do not, as Muslims, wish to violate the holy ordinances described/prescribed within the scripture. They are choosing a different path. So why should that matter enough to other Muslims that someone should go after that person and kill them?

If this is what Muslims call freedom, then I have a very different definition. Therefore, if there is a translation issue, it needs to be corrected as soon as possible to make certain that there are no misunderstandings between anyone wishing to join and those who are already Muslims. Without proper and successful communication, no meaningful discourse can occur, and whoever joins is basing their decision on a belief in something that is not true- a falsehood.

If that falsehood or those falsehoods become(s) the foundation of the newly-converted person's faith, then their entire belief structure is in serious jeopardy and they are not protected in the way or ways that they think they are. So when the truth comes-a-knockin,' it would seem logical to me that anyone who has invested themselves greatly in such beliefs could not help but feel threatened by the truth rather than liberated. A tree that loses a limb loses all the branches that grow upon it- any psychologists (or other qualified and certified individuals) in the house would do well to correct me if what I say is not true. It may save much arguing and flinging of insults.

-I would just like to remind everyone that I am not making any accusation against anyone here-

If Islam is to be free, then there are a few things that need to happen: first, common misunderstandings MUST be addressed and explained clearly. Second, the extremists who are perpetrating violence against anyone for reasons of faith must be stopped and expelled from Islam.

While it may seem rather bold and even arrogant of me, a non-Muslim, to suggest these things, my intention is to help, not harm. There are gaps that must be bridged between Muslims and non-Muslims in order to ensure that future generations in this world will enjoy peace and prosperity, free of fear and violence, as well as other forms of vengeance which any extremists, fighting for any cause, may otherwise take upon each other and those who want nothing to do with their conflict(s).

Let us identify these gaps and close them and be proactive about our shared/collective future rather than reactive.

[anelie.]

Venus: I never said it was okay to kill a girl that was raped by someone, to kill a victim. And I do not support religion doing this. I know that in countries, where islam is an official religion, it happens, but you will not find any support for this kind of acting neither in the Quran nor in the sunna. It is blinded people who do this. And I feel very sorry that it is happening in the world. I am a lawyer and hopefully one day I will fight against these kind of things. Where did it happen? In Pakistan I think? It is such a pity that a country created for muslims constantly acts against the prescriptions of islam, in the worst manner possible.

AmbientSound: Death penalty for apostasy? There is nothing like that in the Quran. On the contrary, the Quran says that for apostasy a person will be punished IN THE HEREAFTER.
I know that the four islamic schools recognize death penalty for muslims that convert. I think it is WRONG.
And I am not the only one, there are muslim scholars who think the same; Unfortunately, the majority of them agrees, which is something I do not understand.

Choice of religion, and conversion, are very personal matters and this decision deals only with relationsip between God and the person. Others have no say in it. It is said in the Quran, there is no compulsion in the religion.  You cannot use force or fear of death to prevent someone from converting, as the real faith comes from the heart. Actually, death penalty for apostasy is possible in these countries: SaudiArabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and also Pakistan, I guess.

[anelie.]

Mustardseed:

You wrote that when muslims try to defend the atrocities commited in the name of islam, they inevitably talk about crusades etc, which happened in the past. There is no excuse for it, of course, and it is a bad argument, "christians did it as well". etc.

Why are you sending us, western muslims, to islamic countries? I am very much aware that in the western world there is much more freedom. I have responsibility only for myself, I cannot be held liable for all the bad things commited by others. However, I have spend quite a lot of time in Morocco so I know what life is like there and it is possible that I will stay there for a few years, as my husband comes from there and all his family lives there. You know what, his family is just normal, nice, kind people, of course it is a different culture so I had to adjust, but they respect me as a European and I respect them as they are. But I pay more attention to what kind of clothes I wear,  I always make sure that no man in the family can see a part of my belly, legs, etc. My husband' s sisters still live with them (they are not married), but they have their own car and work. Most of the limitating rules, for ex. woman cannot work, cannot walk alone in the street are part of a culture, not islam. In Morocco it depends on a family, whether you come from a countryside or a city, etc. But it is men who have the authority most of the times. Law is inspired by sharia but is constantly changing and coming closer to our western laws.

Yes, I have read the Quran, all of it, I have acquainted myself with hadiths, sharia, etc. As regards sharia, of course it is difficult for us to accept it, and for me as well, I have studied law (that belong to european continental system). So I cannot change my views so easily just because I become muslim. The problem is, as you probably know, we live in a world in which an accent is put on an individual. Of course the protection of the society is important, but no by any means. We care about rights of individuals. But in the past the society was much different, and it was an interest of society that was more important than that of an individual. That' s why it was considered appropriate to cut off someone"s hand for theft, etc; There was a big harm inflicted on a victim, like this he wouldn't steal any more, and it would protect the society. It is a very strict rule, of course. Today, for a theft you will get a fine, or maybe a few months of prison.

I believe that there is one Creator of the Universe. He has created us, put us in our physical bodies and gave us one opportunity to live on the earth; I do not know why, according to the Quran it is to test us both by good and bad things happening to us. In order to succeed, one must prove his perfect character, and show his best qualities, recognize, honour and be thankful to his Creator. Ther will be some people who will be successful who will go to Paradise, whatever it is, as it cannot be described by our "worldly" worlds. The rest will go to hell, I understand that they will be annihilated. It is extremely difficult to go to Paradise, I would say most people will not deserve it, I think, people who will go there will be those who are like some saints in christianity, Francois d' Assisi, etc. It is my opinion. Now I am thinking about Saint Mary, jesus' s mother. Do you think, if she lived in our times, that she would be fighting for a right not to cover her head? ))))))))

I pray and I am thankful to the One who created me; I try to purify my character (it is VERY difficult), be tolerant, open minded, humble, etc. etc, when something bad happens to me, I try to understand that it was a will of God instead of getting angry, I try to understand that all good that happens to me is a blessing from God, for which I should be thankful and not take it for granted, I try to live according to basic good principles, without exception, I am trying to have the best posible relationship with my husband, yes, I am a muslim, I try to obey the will of God, can you tell me, Mustardseed, what's wrong with that?

I feel fulfilled, I did not find this kind of satisfaction in Christianism, nor in astral travel (I have some experience in astral travelling, meditation, even a little bit of clairvoyance) or some new age practices.
Am I doing something wrong? WHy should I stop with it only because there are people out there doing bad thing in the name of islam? I am not responsible for them.

I will translate for you an interesting article about islam written by a member of the European parliament, who spent a half of her life in the Middle East. But it will take me some time, I do not want to waste my Sunday on it:)

Kind regards,

Anelie

[anelie.]

Mustardseed: I just read some of your posts and I found out they you as well spent a half of your life in an Arab country. Well, this is not the point, but it is an interesting article anyway, although, it probably won' t tell you anything new. We'll see. When I have time I will translate a bit of it.

[Mustardseed]

Anelie:
You wrote that when muslims try to defend the atrocities commited in the name of islam, they inevitably talk about crusades etc, which happened in the past. There is no excuse for it, of course, and it is a bad argument, "christians did it as well". etc.

Mustardseed:That is correct, it is a bad argument

Why are you sending us, western muslims, to islamic countries?

I am NOT sending you anywhere. I only argue a point namely, if you believe Islam and Sharia to be so superiour, and even try to change the western judicial systems towards Sharia, why do you not instead go to countries where Sharia is the Law. You answered this question in the next sentence

I am very much aware that in the western world there is much more freedom.

Good so we agree on that. What do you think is the reason for this "much more freedom".....I shall tell you.....no Sharia!

I have responsibility only for myself, I cannot be held liable for all the bad things commited by others.

That is correct, but if you defend the atrocities committed by NOT speaking up against them you become responsible.

However, I have spend quite a lot of time in Morocco so I know what life is like there and it is possible that I will stay there for a few years, as my husband comes from there and all his family lives there. You know what, his family is just normal, nice, kind people, of course it is a different culture so I had to adjust,

Sure there are nice people everywhere

but they respect me as a European

Whooooeeee stop a minute....do you really believe that they do. I THINK NOT. If they did they would not mind what you wear, and where you work, or how you live your life. That is respect.

and I respect them as they are.

I believe you do......you have no option, if you do not you will loose your husband

But I pay more attention to what kind of clothes I wear,  I always make sure that no man in the family can see a part of my belly, legs,

You conform........Paul said I have become all things to all men, as a Jew to the Jews as a Roman to the Romans....you are becoming a Muslim to the Muslims.....a Christian notion

My husband' s sisters still live with them (they are not married), but they have their own car and work. Most of the limitating rules, for ex. woman cannot work, cannot walk alone in the street are part of a culture, not islam.

That is simply not correct. I could find the Suras to support this statement but if you have read the Koran you know, it is not so

In Morocco it depends on a family, whether you come from a countryside or a city, etc. But it is men who have the authority most of the times. Law is inspired by sharia but is constantly changing and coming closer to our western laws.

My point exactly........in order to come closer to freedom the law of the land will have to move toward western values, and away from Sharia. You see only in the west is there actual freedom. In the west we fight for the right of Muslims to wear what they will, companies are not even allowed by law to refuse to hire a woman wearing a scarf. WE fight for the rights of Muslims in the west, but Muslims in Muslim countries suppress and persecute non Muslims aided by the LAW. You see the difference?

Yes, I have read the Quran, all of it, I have acquainted myself with hadiths, sharia, etc. As regards sharia, of course it is difficult for us to accept it, and for me as well, I have studied law (that belong to european continental system). So I cannot change my views so easily just because I become muslim.

Yea you do have a problem there, on one hand you HAVE to change your mind as Sharia is ISLAM, on the other hand you see clearly it is not fair or just.....quite a enigma

The problem is, as you probably know, we live in a world in which an accent is put on an individual. Of course the protection of the society is important, but no by any means. We care about rights of individuals. But in the past the society was much different, and it was an interest of society that was more important than that of an individual. That' s why it was considered appropriate to cut off someone"s hand for theft, etc;

Do tell me that you agree that this is barbaric

There was a big harm inflicted on a victim, like this he wouldn't steal any more, and it would protect the society. It is a very strict rule, of course. Today, for a theft you will get a fine, or maybe a few months of prison.

Yes if that, sometimes they just let you off

I believe that there is one Creator of the Universe. He has created us, put us in our physical bodies and gave us one opportunity to live on the earth; I do not know why, according to the Quran it is to test us both by good and bad things happening to us.

Nothing new here most religions teach this same principle

In order to succeed, one must prove his perfect character, and show his best qualities, recognize, honour and be thankful to his Creator. Ther will be some people who will be successful who will go to Paradise, whatever it is, as it cannot be described by our "worldly" worlds. The rest will go to hell, I understand that they will be annihilated.

EXACTLY, in this regard ISLAM is like the EVANGELICAL movement, black or white heaven or hell. (Islam does teach that if you get killed while engaging in Jihad you will go straight to heaven)

It is extremely difficult to go to Paradise, I would say most people will not deserve it, I think, people who will go there will be those who are like some saints in christianity, Francois d' Assisi, etc. It is my opinion.

Sorry dear I do not mean to be impolite, but according to ISLAM you have no right to an opinion. NO CHRISTIAN CAN ENTER the Muslim heaven, it is not an option,it is NOT up to personal interpretation.

Now I am thinking about Saint Mary, jesus' s mother. Do you think, if she lived in our times, that she would be fighting for a right not to cover her head? ))))))))

I am not sure. If she was catapulted here maybe but if she had been part of the gradual change toward freedom she would not, it is a moot point.

I pray and I am thankful to the One who created me; I try to purify my character (it is VERY difficult), be tolerant, open minded, humble, etc. etc, when something bad happens to me, I try to understand that it was a will of God instead of getting angry, I try to understand that all good that happens to me is a blessing from God, for which I should be thankful and not take it for granted, I try to live according to basic good principles, without exception, I am trying to have the best posible relationship with my husband, yes, I am a muslim, I try to obey the will of God, can you tell me, Mustardseed, what's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that at all......but it is not ISLAM, you should be embracing JIHAD, and you should not have all these "crazy" ideas of freedom, personal opinions, and Christians going to heaven. The fact of the matter is that you believe as a Christian, but because of your love for your Husband (and I applaud that), you are forced to live like a Muslim. None of the values you claim to have are ISLAMIC, they are in fact........Christian values, you have these because you appear to have been brought up in a Western society, ..........my dear........you are going backward


I feel fulfilled, I did not find this kind of satisfaction in Christianism, nor in astral travel (I have some experience in astral travelling, meditation, even a little bit of clairvoyance) or some new age practices.
Am I doing something wrong? WHy should I stop with it only because there are people out there doing bad thing in the name of islam? I am not responsible for them.

Basically you are saying that you are going to live as you live because it makes you happy, an UN-Islamic notion, what has happened appears that you have gotten a personal relation to the Divine, which is great. As far as you being responsible for the ones doing wrong things....yes you are. If you do not stand up for the freedom you have you will loose it. If you do not stand up and confront those who do bad things you become like them. Evil prosper when good men do nothing, and it is your responsibility like it is the responsibility of us all

I will translate for you an interesting article about islam written by a member of the European parliament, who spent a half of her life in the Middle East. But it will take me some time, I do not want to waste my Sunday on it:)

I look forward to it, regards to you as well

In ending this post my dear Anelie, if you have the courage please watch the following clip. It is a factual account and documented claim of women and Islam. It is not for the faint hearted so be forewarned. I do appreciate your desire to live at peace with all, something I believe says a lot about YOU, however we are discussing WOMEN and ISLAM, not Anelie and Islam. You would do well to remember that your perspective is just that ....your perspective, try to step out of the confines of your own experience and open your eyes and compare Women and Islam vs. Christianity and Islam. Be honest, Anelie, and ask the hard questions.

Regards Mustardseed

PS here is the clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfgIo9d354s







[/quote]

[AmbientSound]

Anelie, I agree with your personal convictions pertaining to my previous post, and if all Muslims agreed with you then I would not have brought up the subject of death for apostasy. But it still happens, and it would be interesting to compare the views of a Muslim living in Western society to that of a Muslim living in one of the countries you mentioned in your response. From what you have said, it sounds to me like there is a discrepancy with the scripture and its interpretations. Whoever is in charge of enforcing these laws should get their facts straight.

Once again, I would like to point out how inaccurate translations can also confuse the issue. It could mean the difference between someone being PUNISHED in the hereafter and being SENT TO the hereafter.

[Mustardseed]

A very interesting clip here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4v_kj9rw4

Women and Islam, what do you think

[AmbientSound]

People ought to be free to do as they wish without threats of others imposing their own form of punishment on them. Everything is a state of mind, and what you make an issue of is entirely up to you. That is what I say.

[anelie.]

mustardseed: I am sorry I have not replied to you yet, but I don' t have enough time for the moment.
I watched the video (not the funny one, but the cruel one) with my husband and he was shocked, more than me. He told me, he knew that things like that happen, but he never saw anything like that. he could not understand the women' s circonscision (or whatevers the word), lapidation, letting girls burn because they did not have their heads covered, etc. I was surprised how sensible he is, much more than me, and I am a woman.
Of course, that video is horrible, but you see, he is a muslim, from a muslim country, not "europeanized" and he does not agree with that and is shocked by that. there is another problem, extreme poverty and analphabetism, both of them supported by the governments of muslim countries...

As regards me adjusting to culture of his family and not vice versa, it is not true. If I pay attention to what I wear, it is out of my respect for them. They did not treat me as if I were from morocco, but always asked me if i prefer to do things in a european way (eat from my own plate, etc...), and they even let me sleep alone in a room with my husband to be, although it is something against their moral rules... and I could continue. But, they are not analphabets, and they are understanding...

As regards sharia, I cannot accept it, as I promised to honour laws of my country.
But i did not want to say that sharia is barbaric. How can you be so sure that it is a good
think that our society has become so individual centered? That was my point. Only the way sharia is
executed in some countries is barbaric.

As regards st Paul: become jew to jews, muslim to muslims, etc. I call that hypocrisy.

As regards jihad, if you spent years in arab countries, you probably speak arab, then you probably know that this word means effort, and not only saint war. The best jihad for woman is to be a good wife to her husband, and i am trying be a good wife...well... unfortunately I have a pretty difficult character:)
Not every muslim killede during jihad will go to paradise, even prophet said that about one man
who died in a jihad war. In order to do this kind of jihad, you must be spiritually developed to a certain level, it is not that everyone can do it (thats what my husband told me)

It is simply not true that as a muslim I dont have right to an opinion, how come that I say often my opinion to muslims, face to face? And they don't insult me. Why they did not kill me yet. I say many things against their beliefs. They, muslim men, tell me: it is not a the fact that a women covers her head, that makes a muslim out of her. It is in your heart... If you feel it, you do it, if not, do not do it, and you are still a muslim. Really, I have more and more impression that many bad things connected with islam come from the culture and many muslim men from muslim countries tell me the same thing.

It is not up to us, human beings, to decide, whether a christian can go to heaven. It is up to God, whatever people say.

My husband always says... there are no true muslims in this world anymore...

I hope this weekend I will be able to translate you the article

[anelie.]

mustardseed: I read your message once again, you told me, compare women and islam with women and christianity; the problem is, most christian countries are rich, developed countries.  But what about christianism in africa? I would say, women there are forced to be married as well, etc. etc. Mum of a friend of mine (he is from nigeria) got married when she was 12 with a man 15 years older that her. Or I remember, that in Africa people think that if they have sex with a baby it will protect them from getting aids. etc, etc, etc. Or women from christian part of india, south america... I hope you see my point.

I know that I talk about my ideal islam, but it is the right islam. maybe I will show it to this world one day. One clairvoyant told me a few days ago that I am full of evil and agressivity and that my destiny is politics, hahaha, but who knows...

Peace, I think this discussion leads nowhere, I understand very well your point,
but i simply do not think that it is the true islam what you describe. Although it is a reality.

[AmbientSound]

Anelie makes some good points. A society that is too individualized can breed an attitude of "I've got mine and screw everyone else." That is not a good attitude for anyone to have and there is no excuse for it. But a society that is not individualized enough cannot adapt to change fast enough to survive. Freedom has its price, and one should only exercise the freedoms for which they are strong enough to handle. There must be a time and place for individuality, and there must be a time for congregating with others. Sharing a common goal is what unites us. If that goal is taken away, the will of the people cannot be galvanized. There must be a balance between individualization and congregation. We must all maintain the awareness that we're all in this together, regardless of what we believe. Using nuclear weapons on our enemies affects our friends negatively, for example, as radioactive particles travel the world's air currents and poison the very people we are fighting for.

Hiding ourselves and running from the things that 'mess with our heads' only makes us more weak and evil each time we do it. It is up to us to put ourselves to the challenge of encountering the things that happen in this world and learn how to deal with them. Some of them we must let happen. Those which are universally condemned, we should make great effort to stop.

[Mustardseed]

mustardseed: I read your message once again, you told me, compare women and islam with women and christianity; the problem is, most christian countries are rich, developed countries.  But what about christianism in africa? I would say, women there are forced to be married as well, etc. etc. Mum of a friend of mine (he is from nigeria) got married when she was 12 with a man 15 years older that her. Or I remember, that in Africa people think that if they have sex with a baby it will protect them from getting aids. etc, etc, etc. Or women from christian part of india, south america... I hope you see my point.

I know that I talk about my ideal islam, but it is the right islam. maybe I will show it to this world one day. One clairvoyant told me a few days ago that I am full of evil and agressivity and that my destiny is politics, hahaha, but who knows...

Peace, I think this discussion leads nowhere, I understand very well your point,
but i simply do not think that it is the true islam what you describe. Although it is a reality.

Dear Anelie
While it is probably true that some girls may have been married at 12 in Nigeria, and that Nigerian men widely believe that having intercourse with a child is a cure for aids, there is one fundamental difference, and reason why your argument does not hold.

All over the 3rd World tribal people and animistic people increasingly become more civilized, people who are un educated become educated. Generally speaking these atrocities that was shown on the video is the way many of them lived their lives, honor killings female circumcision Child brides etc. As they come closer to Christianity and as they "grow in the faith" as Christians call it, they realize the barbaric aspect of their former tradition and CHANGE to become more what we term Civilized, the same is the case if they simply become educated and remain secular. However after they come closer to ISLAM they actually become more entrenched and justified in these actions through ISLAM.

There is one reason for this.........men rule women in Islam. There is no equality for women. This is what we are discussing. There might be marriages in which there is equality, but these are western influenced unions, or unions where 1 partner is from the west, and they are not the norm nor in agreement with Islamic tradition and jurisprudence. You are arguing that Christianity has the same view but this is not so. Generally speaking only the Apostle Paul had a lot to say about men being over women, Jesus appear NOT to have had that attitude and one of his closest followers and the one he showed himself to after having risen was Magdalena. In Christian countries there is more equality because there is more civilization. It is a fact.

In Islam this is so vastly different. Men rule Islam and women have no say whatsoever, none at all. Take a look at this Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY-fhRXP0aQ&feature=related

And if you would like a documentation on this look here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tahrir-ol-vasyleh

All in all, (and not using some obscure child in Nigeria) pedophilia is forbidden and abhorred in Christian Civilized countries AS WELL as Christian fellowships in poor countries.

Anelie, there is only the Islam you see....... this hidden Islam you claim to know is NOT Islam. It is a concoction, a fantasy that YOU and many others engage in, in order to stay together with Husbands and Family brought up in Islam, I understand that, and sympathise. If you have been raised in Islam it is VERY hard to leave, first of all it is a permanent severance of all social ties as you become a heretic worse than a Khuffar. You endanger your life, as Apostasy is punishable with Death. This does not go for all Islamic countries, but in EVERY ONE OF THEM, you become an outcast. As a result people compromise and pretend.....they go along with their religious leaders, and in order to justify this incredible compromise and failure as a decent human being, they make up a fantasy religion......Islam as it should be......they call it the REAL Islam, but it is NOT. Real Islam is the rule of the land in Islamic countries, it is Palestinian Children clamoring to become suicide bombers, child brides, honor killings, rapes and stonings as well as an incredible horrific unjust treatment of Women.

Jihad means struggle, yes, however if you look at History, it has always been armed struggle. Only in recent years have these same moderate Muslims I mention above started to describe Jihad as an inner struggle. Traditionally Jihad was always armed struggle in the name of ISLAM. I do not want to barrage you with arguments for this but do check this out with historians. If you go to answerislam and all the other apologist sites you will only be fed the normal propaganda, so look with historians who have no interest with either standpoint. I wish you all the best.

It is true that for you maybe there is no point to this discussion but out there somewhere there may be countless other young girls who are falling for the lies and deceit, they deserve the truth, and speaking the truth or discussing what the truth IS, in a certain situation is never pointless.

Regards Mustardseed

Ps any Clairvoyant telling you stuff like that is off their rocker. You should stay away from people like that. 

[anelie.]

Mustardseed: what you have sent me, it is not acting of muslims.
THERE ARE NO REAL MUSLIMS IN THIS WORLD anymore,
the true muslims are very rare.


In order to improve the situation in these countries, you
will not achieve anything by atacking islam. You have to put
a political pression on the governments of the countries concerned.
As well as an embargo, etc. As the USA have done with Cuba.
The problem is that Cuba has nothing important to offer,
but many islamic countries have oil that the developed world need.

Our western world is  not the way it is thanks to christian religion, on the
contrary, the  more it distanced itself from christianity,
the more developed it got. Or, what about japan, it is not based
on christian values at all:)

Maybe you dont see it in the USA, people are
quite religious there, in Europe churches are empty. The reason for it is,
as I read, that in USA, the (sorry I dont know what it is called like exactly)
social security system is not very well developed (money that you get from the state
when you lose your job, when you are seriously ill, etc) In Europe it is very well
developed, governments take a very good care of their citizens.
Sometimes it is even better for people not to work, they get from the government
enough money to live well.

In USA, I read, it is different and it is churches who assume this role, take care
of people in need etc. In Europe, churches are subsidised by governments,
so priests do not care much, they get their salaries anyway, whether people
go to church or not. In the USA, churches must do their best to attract their clients.

But, what I wanted to say, is that our society is based on ATHEIST values.
All european philosophy is based on it, humanism, nihilism, existencionalism, etc.

As regards christian values how can we be sure that we understand them well.
The idea of loving my enemy has always perplexed me. How to understand the word
love? Today, the world love got different connotations than in the times of jesus.
What happened to the real "agape"?
Do you remember that jesus even told that slaves shouldnt try to liberate themselves, but should
be satisfied with their status? So why did we abolish slavery? because it is an atheist idea,
freedom, not christian.

You see, our society is too different from the real christian society as well, todays times are
far away from it, because, as I have already written, it has became very individualized.
Thats why we cannot properly apply nor christian, nor islamic teachings. It does not
conform with our societies.

I do not contact clairvoyants, but some people feel a strong need to
inform me bout my future, although I never ask them:)))

I am sorry that I changed a little bit  subject, it is not about women and islam anymore.

[Mustardseed]

Dear Anelie
No need to apologize, I find your arguments very interesting honest and compelling, and it is all a part of the big picture. I will have to think about it a bit and will get back to you. I really appreciate being able to talk about this without aggression and name calling. A good thing....thankyou.

Regards MS

[anelie.]

mustardseed: I thank you as well.

I have just found an interesting article about how the period of enlightement changed
profoundly our society.

http://histclo.com/act/rel/hist/rh-enl.html

[anelie.]

ambientsound: yes, our society is individual centered, something that did not exist before.
we have our freedom, which brought many good things to us, and we cannot accept things of the past anymore. I have nothing against that, only, i think we have become too selfish, which is bad for us.
Also our society is too much based on materialistic values which even the most spiritual person cannot escape. Personally, I 'feel" a strong spiritual emptiness in western society. 

[Mustardseed]

Dear Anelie
Although you have a point about Japan and civilization, try to look a little deeper.

Take a look at this

Mioko Fujieda, (from Some Thoughts on Domestic Violence in Japan),    

Domestic violence went largely unrecognized by Japanese society and unaddressed by the Japanese government until the early 1990s. Through a couple of highly publicized cases of extreme violence against women, advocates finally began to capture the attention of the country. The Domestic Violence Action and Research Group, a nongovernmental group of activists, practitioners, and researchers seized the opportunity to conduct a nationwide survey of the experiences of violence in women's lives. The results demonstrated what Japanese women had known for years—that domestic violence is a serious problem in Japan.
(end quote)

The fact of the matter is that Women are horribly treated in both Japan and India as well as in Buddhist countries. Japan has made a big jump into the modern age, but one can argue what makes a country civilized, material progress or how they treat the weak and the poor?. That is an interesting issue. I would say that the way to judge an individual and his moral fiber, is how he treats those less fortunate than himself, (the poor the wear the sick etc) so maybe this can also be used as a model to judge a society. I have lived in India for years as well as the Mideast they are very similar in their approach to women, and the poor....horrible.

You say that I should not attack Islam, but instead put pressure on the Govt. well that is not an option for me. In order to build something you have to tear the old down and it can seem like a brutal process, especially if your heart and life is vested in the old. I will have do what I can, and that is to take part in the debate here and other places.

I still think that Islam represses women, free thought and free speech and all the very things a free world is made up of. Furthermore I see it in the way Muslims argue and how Muslim clergy acts.

I think that this "Dream Islam" that people invent is only that a dream. What do you think about that notion.? Nice people calling themselves Muslims does not make Islam a "nice" religion. You can't just "make up" what a new version of Islam Anelie, it is what it is, based on what it teaches, how the followers of it interpret it. You can see weather a tree is a good tree by the fruit it bears, the result. A good tree will bear good fruit a bad tree will bear bad fruit. Now I am not saying that bad stuff does not happen in Western Christian civilization....they do BUT they are not SANCTIONED by the religion of the land.

Take a look at these facts written by an Atheist:
http://www.liberator.net/articles/TremblayFrancois/Islam.html

Regards MS

[AmbientSound]

Anelie, I understand your perception of spiritual emptiness in the West. I'm a U.S. citizen and I have witnessed what you mean. This happens for two reasons:

First, Christianity is the dominant religion in politics. Though we are supposed to have a separation of Church and State, there are a lot of people in the United States who call themselves Christian but know absolutely nothing about the religion because they were discouraged from asking questions, or punished when they did ask. I have a friend who was slapped across the face as a child for asking why Mary was a virgin but could have a baby. Some people are consumed and blinded by their passion for their religion so much that they are quick to dole out punishment when they perceive a wrong has been done to their god. These are people that believe the world and everything in it was created in seven days, which the world at large knows to be scientifically impossible. These are people who do not use reason and critical thinking to solve their problems. They are slaves to their own minds and fears. I even lived with a couple people who were always talking about the Lord and how we should be thankful, etc. But they did it in an accusatory, finger-pointing way, which turned me off to the idea of Christianity. They were self-righteous hypocrites, not people who were truly enlightened. But then, experience is something you get just after you need it. I haven't seen them in years and they may very well have changed.

The second reason for spiritual emptiness is the phenomenon of technological distractions. People spend their time focusing on anything except the situations in which they find themselves. They are usually talking on cell phones, playing video games WHILE they are walking down a street, listening to music through headphones and drowning out all other noise, etc. We aren't making the world a better place by unplugging ourselves from reality.

The other part of it is that a lot of people have to work two jobs just to make ends' meet. They don't have time to think about spiritual matters because they are too busy trying to survive. Technology was supposed to shorten the amount of time we had to spend working. Obviously, this is not the way things turned out. In the 1950's a man could support his entire family working as a grocery store clerk/cashier. Today, one cannot even support themselves with such a job, let alone that most businesses and organizations won't hire anyone without at least a bachelor's degree from a university.

What we should do is render the economy obsolete through the advancement of technology- technology that runs on renewable and clean energy, and takes care of all our physical survival needs, including surgery and medical care, constructing food out of atoms and molecules, etc. I proposed this already in Astral Chat under a topic called "If robots ran the world" to get some feedback from others.

[AmbientSound]

one thing I just wanted to say: Islam, Christianity, Judaism- three branches of the same tree. I feel it is important to maintain good relations between all three of these religions. With all the fighting going on between the three, I can only assume that someone wants to keep us apart so that we don't see what's really going on.

[anelie.]

mustardseed: i will get back to you later. I will not have access to internet for a few days and i don' t have time now to write long answers.

Ambientsound: I agree with everything you have written. Yes, I felt this emptiness but I never knew what makes people so empty. You gave me an answer.

[AmbientSound]

There are many more things that make people so empty. Part of it is being shown the fairy tale version of life, where everyone ends up "happily ever after," only to be thrust into the "real world" which appears more like a desolate wasteland of intelligence, sincerity, and charity. It's like sticking a hologram of a rose and an actual moldy banana side by side and observing the resulting relationship. You aren't actually seeing a rose, just its illusion. Nor do you smell it. But that moldy banana is quite solid and real.

I think that something is going to happen to the people who possess the greatest monetary power and wealth, in our lifetimes, which will set off a chain of events that will lead to an eventual balancing of power between those who lead and those who are led. There is a lot of talk of 2012 and there seem to be quite a few people who believe in it. 2012 marks the end of the Mayan calendar. I don't know enough about it to say whether there is relevant cause to believe in this prophecy, but it's certainly causing quite a buzz amidst a lot of people. I have seen a few documentaries about it, all of which were fascinating. It was compelling, to say the least.

[astral traveler]

I read a few quotes in there that basically say that women were created equal to men, but then why are men guardians over women?  Could guardian and protector simply mean the literal meanings of that men are supposed to protect the women, but not dominate over them?  Why in Islam, do women enjoy far fewer freedoms than men? (examples, they can not walk in public alone without a male family member... but men are allowed to walk without a female family member, men do not have to cover their bodies up like a women, men can marry 4 wives (does that mean women can marry 4 husbands too?) Men are promised virgins in heaven... do women get virgin males in heaven?)  This does not sound like the 'equality' that was quoted from the Quran....  More examples... why is a women who was raped scorned as being 'unpure' even though she is the victim? Where are her male protectors then?  Why is the burden of proof ALWAYS on the women to prove rape, and then of course the male witnesses will not tell the truth, and then the women is punished for making it up? What women would want to admit that she had been violated then?  Why do women have to worship in a separate area behind men in mosques?

as your words clearly demonstrate, women are not treated as equals within islam.  for example, in the last five years there have been 600 iraqi women who have set themselves ablaze with kerosene to protest the oppression which they receive from their men.

[AmbientSound]

There will come a day when all people are free. They already are, but they have to realize it for themselves. Freedom isn't something that somebody gives you, it's something you have to give to yourself. It comes from inside you. The realization that you are free must occur before action can be taken to persuade one's oppressor to recognize it as fact. You're not asking to be free, you're asking others to recognize that you already are free, that the possibility exists that you will make choices that they may disagree with, and that they have the same freedom. Equality is real. Status is an illusion. Even status allegedly given unto others by holy scripture and writings.

Quantum physics might seem like an obscure subject for most people, but it reveals just how much of our reality is shaped by perspective and observation.

[astral traveler]

There will come a day when all people are free. They already are, but they have to realize it for themselves.

i realize that i'm free.  i'm just waiting for my mortgage lender to come to the same level of enlightenment.