Search for Osama!!! Millions of dollars reward!

[MJ-12]

No Osama, but I did find Waldo a few times over.

[n/a]

I found my car keys.    he he he

[Atlas]

See, it's weird for me because one minute I will totally believe all this astral projection stuff, and then the next I will have some serious doubts. This is one of them. I am a rational, logical person who pursues things scientifically. If this was REAL, if you could really travel around in the real time zone, then couldn't Robert and Romero and all the hundreds of others I'm sure exist like them, EASILY find Osama bin Laden? Couldn't they have quickly pinpointed survivors at the WTC? Couldn't they find where Chandra Levy is? And I'm aware that Robert says the realtime zone quickly fluctuates into the others, but with skill and discipline the real time state can be maintained for an extended period. Actually you don't even need the real time zone, just make a hop skip and jump over to the akashic records and look up our man osama. Sounds easy to me. I guess this gets back to the question, if this is real and not in the mind, then why can't anyone prove it?

[Roger]

Although I resent the implication that the rest of us are illogical and unscientific (my Masters is in Computer Science).  I can give you a very simply answer.  Real-time/astral projection does not make you omniscient.  It allows you to move your consciousness or point of view to both the real-time and astral realms but does not grant someone knowledge beyond their own ken.  Even if you could get a group of OBE experts (say a hundred of them) to manage to project to Afghanistan (or Pakistan, or...), good luck scouring the country for him.

You cannot simply think "take me to Bin Laden" and you'll end up there, far from it.  As one who has experienced an OBE first hand, I can tell you it is very very real and far different than imagination or self-delusion.  It has been done since the beginning of time in both sleep and conscious states.

You can also take into account the proven scientific facts of those studies where projection has been tried under university-controlled circumstances to discover hidden objects in another room.  It was a resounding success.

You may also consider the numerous NDE experiences (one of the most heightened and powerful forms of OBE) where patients with zero EEG activity, no blood in their bodies and frozen have managed to describe (and later have verified by their surgeons) the things spoken, occurances in nearby rooms that they have no reason to know about.

Art Bell recently interviewed such a woman, her name was Barbara if I remember correctly, who had all of the blood removed from her body, her heart stopped, no brain activity who managed such a thing.  She was clinically dead for 45 minutes as an aneurism-removal procedure was undertaken.  She was able to describe surgeons that entered after she was dead, what was said, what they looked like and dead and people that were outside of the room.

It makes me think about a sign that someone alleged to have been posted on the ceiling of the operating room, "If you can read this... you're dead."  



Edited by - Roger on 28 March 2002  06:57:24

[Roger]

As a side note, I'd say that "remote viewing" would have a better chance of locating someone stationary for extended periods.  I think SciTech has some fascinating testimonials and the Farsight Institute also has some very good free audio sessions, available for download online that teach these techniques.

Not only that, but you'll get to use the phrase "prama yama".  And you can't beat that.  

[Mobius]

Personally I dont know how many OBE,ers & R.Vers are willing to
track down someone on the move,& rationally,do we really know that
Osama Bin Laden was responsible?Why not Saddam Hussein?It is
convenient that it happens to be Arabs & happens to be Christianity,s
biggest religous & economic opponent (Islam).
Why is so many facts being ignored?Out of buildings that were
supposed to be occupied by up to 20,000 people at the time of the
terrorist attack there were how many people discovered so far?
About 3 to 4000,(not that I would want the toll to be higher) &
remarkably no Israeli,s were found & many others were conveniently
not at work that day.Days before the strike huge amounts of options
were traded in companies that specialized in military aircraft,
weapons & the resources needed to make them.

Osama bin scapegoat more like it,a killer a manipulator & a
dangerous man for sure but it is more likely a bigger fish than
Osama.
Anyway I would like to say for anyone who thinks I somehow think
Osama is a hero or wanted innocent people to die,I dont & didn,t.
Its just when there is no admission to the act or critical evidence
as to who/when/why the public will accept anyone to make themselves
feel better & I,ve become accustomed to the contradictory
statement "Believe half of what you see & none of what you hear" until
you can get more info & decide yourself.

On locating people;animate objects are variables & are actually
very hard to locate & even harder to verify in terrain that all
looks the same,with no-one close by to relay accuracy.
Joe McMoneagle has been the only person to publicly locate a missing
person & he is in his 50,s & has been doing OBE,s & R.v,s for over
30 years.The U.S government would not listen to joe bloggs telling
them "hey I know where he is,its a cave or something & its dimly lit"
You would have to have the motive & credentials for the top brass
to notice & listen.

Good luck on your journeys

Mobius

[Frank]

quote:
See, it's weird for me because one minute I will totally believe all this astral projection stuff, and then the next I will have some serious doubts. This is one of them. I am a rational, logical person who pursues things scientifically. If this was REAL, if you could really travel around in the real time zone, then couldn't Robert and Romero and all the hundreds of others I'm sure exist like them, EASILY find Osama bin Laden? Couldn't they have quickly pinpointed survivors at the WTC? Couldn't they find where Chandra Levy is? And I'm aware that Robert says the realtime zone quickly fluctuates into the others, but with skill and discipline the real time state can be maintained for an extended period. Actually you don't even need the real time zone, just make a hop skip and jump over to the akashic records and look up our man osama. Sounds easy to me. I guess this gets back to the question, if this is real and not in the mind, then why can't anyone prove it?

You say you are rational, logical and pursue things scientifically... then why are you making an exception in this case?

I am a scientist, and the way I set out was to accept the phenomenon was real and try and disprove it. I basically took a selection of "obe techniques" and tried them exactly as read. I regarded myself as a basically normal, healthy rational-thinking individual. Such that, if I *genuinely* tried the techniques *properly* and *thoroughly* and did NOT have any kind of obe experience: that would be sufficient proof (for me) that the whole obe "thing" was baloney.

As it turned out, I did have obe experiences and have been enjoying them for about 20 years. Even so, I would still regard myself as a beginner in many respects.        

The real-time zone (as it is called) is the most stable zone. But it is *still* very tricky to negotiate. You can't just say to yourself, "Go find so and so" and open your eyes expecting to be there. In theory, yes, but in practice it is extremely difficult.

And there is also the political aspect touched on by the previous poster. Personally, even if I could I still wouldn't. Because it's simply not my business to start getting involved in one side's viewpoint or the other.  

Yours,
Frank

[Adrian]

Greetings Everyone!

Yes, Frank is absolutely right in my opinion!

I started out life as a scientist as well (organic chemist) before I moved into running computer businesses. And as such, I believe that it is encumbent on all of these to find the truth for ourselves by experimentation and involvement, approached from a rational position.

It is so easy to be influenced by others, and humans have a tendency to be both cynical, and believe what they want to believe - i.e. that which gives them the least to think about usually - the most acceptable.

This applies to all metaphysical and spiritual positions. I know several extremely advanced people in these areas, I respect them enormously, ask them questions, get excellent answers, and so on. But at the final analysis you have to prove it to yourself, and that's it.

On this topic - yes, you can project in the "real time zone", but the first thing to be aware of is that is only a fluctuating reflection of the physical environment. Secondly - yes, you can project to Afghanistan or anywhere else - but you still have to search. It could could be said that the lack of limitations of OBE would make this search more efficient and quicker.

I do agree entirely that RV'ers should find these people though. RV is a totally different discipline, and interacts differently. I would be most surprised if RV'ers haven't "seen" Bin Laden, but might not know the exact location (or how to describe it), or how to get there physically.

These questions are very good ones however - well worth considering.

With kind regards,

Adrian.

[Atlas]

Ok you guys...I swear sometimes you guys TOTALLY miss my point haha. Ok , FORGET osama bin laden. I didn't mean to stir things up with any anti-US anti-christianity folks here. It was merely used to illustrate a point of why can't this ever be DEMONSTRATED. The lid would be blown sky high if someone out of body OR RVing found Chandra Levy (or an equal situation). Simple Test. No takers though...hmmmmm....

Roger, I don't see why you think I was implying that you were irrational. I was simply saying that it didn't make sense to me, and if anyone HAD found a rational explanation for these questions, I would like the answer because I haven't found it yet and I won't accept wishy washy/new-agey answers that don't have some logic/reason backing them up.

Roger you said, "You can also take into account the proven scientific facts of those studies where projection has been tried under university-controlled circumstances to discover hidden objects in another room. It was a resounding success."

How come I've never heard of it then? This would be HUGE news. If you could give me some links or something I'd appreciate it because as far as I'm aware, there have been no credible studies of this phenomenon that were consistent and convincing.



Frank you said "You say you are rational, logical and pursue things scientifically... then why are you making an exception in this case?

I am a scientist, and the way I set out was to accept the phenomenon was real and try and disprove it."

I don't see where the exception here is. I also am accepting that it's true and trying to disprove it.
A) I have never had an OBE despite years of effort.
B) I think it is disheartening that this can't be proven and used for more practical purposes, SUCH AS finding survivors of crashes. Finding kidnapped people, etc. After all, advanced projectors are supposed to have access to the Akashic Records right? Where every thought idea and action has been recorded?

A I can understand. B I find fishy...

Thanks for the replies guys.

Atlas

[Mobius]

Hi Atlas, not sure if you think it is me who is Anti U.S & Anti
Christian but I,m not an Anti anything but Anti-Powerful predatory
elite & upper echelons.I dont follow any religions but have read
quite a few versions of various religions bible.I,m not Anti U.S &
think thats a bit of an over used generalization & tries
somehow to blanket all Americans under the same umbrella.
I,m Anti U.S & Australian & U.K governments & politicians & not the
people they are supposed to be representing & protecting as I have
many American friends & pretty much like everything that comes out
of it except weapons.(Except immobilizing weapons that I could fit
to my car in times where others dont realize I own the road)

The movies,the inventions,the music & the books I pretty much cant
do without.

All the best on your journeys
P.S there is a lot of evidence,but most is classified,did you see my
post on DjMidgetmans OBE movie topic,others have posted evidence too!

Mobius

[Frank]

quote:



I don't see where the exception here is. I also am accepting that it's true and trying to disprove it.
A) I have never had an OBE despite years of effort.
B) I think it is disheartening that this can't be proven and used for more practical purposes, SUCH AS finding survivors of crashes. Finding kidnapped people, etc. After all, advanced projectors are supposed to have access to the Akashic Records right? Where every thought idea and action has been recorded?

A I can understand. B I find fishy...

Thanks for the replies guys.

Atlas

Atlas, you made me realise something important.

You see, the Astral realms have certain "qualities" about them. You cannot gain access to the higher realms until you mind has been conditioned in a certain way. For example, my current playground is what I call the Learning Zone. It is a place where you can walk or fly around and interact with other beings. Many of which look exactly like ordinary humans. Initially, I found that if I became rowdy then some kind of energy would instantly and automatically transfer me back to the next lowest level (which happened to be the Astral base level) which I termed the Training Ground.

It came to me very strongly when I read your last post. A burst of thought told me that this "prevention process" is present not only between the different levels of Astral Realm... but they are present right back through the physical.

Some area of your consciouness is actually preventing you from having even the merest onset of an obe experience. Please don't take offence. I'm only saying this because I thought it may help you.

Yours,
Frank  

[Rob]

Hey Atlas!

There have infact been many many tests proving the existance of things which are non physical, eg chi under scientific conditions and a qigong master:
http://home.eol.ca/~yuan/yansci/
(scientific tests can be found about 1-2 to 2/3 the way down, damn good ones too....)
Then there are all the documented RVing tests, eg where the atmosphere and surface of...um...Jupiter I think were documented WELL before science knew the answers (at the time they laughed at his evidence and even used it against him, re why RVing was a load of bull, but the thing is since then all the things which were "viewed" have slowly been verified....). Auras can also be photoed (?! spelling?), and measured using steady state devices (another very easy way to prove the existance of our sort of energy). Also I have heard, but not seen papers on, psychics being rigorously tested, OBEers like Monroe in labs (listen to the RB interview), ghosts (detectable by very sensitive equiptment, but the scientist doing the work was subsequantly chucked from the fold by his peers...another good reason scientists will not go near), many many things.
I have had this argument many times with my brother, who is a die-hard scientist sceptic, and has said exactly the same thing to me before. That is, if these things were proveable, it would blow the doors of science wide open. But the sad fact is that if someone spends their whole life investing confidence and arrogance in scientific theories they really, really don't enjoy seeing them wripped to shreds. Especially when it is by disciplines which they don't even think deserve honest investigation, like OBE, RV and anything "spooky" or they cannot understand...because it doesn't fit their theories (kinda looped argument huh?). So they do their best to discredit, disprove these things, and if that fails, ignore them. Oh, they can move forward in small jumps, by credited scintists, but most have some seriously large preconceptions about mysticism, magick, psychic stuff, which acts like a brick wall to bringing the good research that has been done into the limelight. This isn't all necessarily the fault of scientists, I would say it is the fault of a closed minded, ignorant/arrogant society. Further, scientists are mostly in the pockets of large corporations or the government, in that their money has to come from somewhere.
There are other much more dark and disturbing reasons which could easily be entertained, many of which are probably true, like what better way to stop research than to make people ridicule it? Done with the utmost of skill to the UFO arena.
Finally I would like to say that even if someone did manage to do something like you said, find this Chandra Levy while OBE, and RB or Romero could likely do this, but do you seriously think that it would make it into the news? I do not know who this Chandra person is, but I am sure that the media would completely skip the OBE part - people don't like news, they like olds as Terry Pratchett would say. What this means is that people like to know what they already know, just in different circumstances, they don't like having their belief systems shredded.
OK I may have divulged a bit here...hmmm....anyway hope you find it interesting

[jo]

Just my tuppence worth....only recently, Joe Mc Moneagle, the USA's most accomplished remote viewer, "found" a Japanese woman live on television simply thru remote viewing. This is only one example of many evidences supplied by Joe.

jo

[David]

I'm sceptical myself, not Randi the ignoramus sceptical, but sceptical none the less. I don't doubt that people "feel" like they go out of the body, I've had OBE's myself. The issue I have is that these tests on OBE's don't actually test if something leaves the body. Instead they just test for ESP. For all we know OBE's could just be a variation of RV'ing with hallucinations thrown in the mix. Personally I would like to believe that the occult theory is correct, but for now I just don't know. And in the world's current state, even if it was proven I doubt it would ever make it into the public arena, or accepted by mainstream science. How do we know it's not in our heads?

[n/a]

I hung a lid to a shoe box from my bedroom light. I stood on a chair and tossed a playing card into the lid and sat in the chair.
Seven times I did manage to project up and see into the lid. All seven times I correctly saw the right card, right suit, and exact position it layed in the lid. This was when I was 15 years old. That was proof enough for me!  I had sight and a thinking mind when this occured. I didn't project my body, but I did project the essense of who I am, I was away from my physical.

I think remote viewing is projecting your sight while still keeping your awareness of who and where you are in the physical body.

               Nightflier...

[Frank]

No-one can "prove" to a person that obe's are "real". It is something you have to experience for yourself. A proper obe experience is as real to a person undergoing the experience as the physical world is. I've said this before that what really did it for me was the very first time I projected into the real-time zone and saw my wife and myself sleeping on the bed.

I'd read loads of stories about it happening to others and they've thought all kinds of depressing stuff, like, they thought they were dead, etc. No, it's nothing like that at all. Quite the opposite, in fact. To the extent where I could not help but just stand there chuckling to myself. The scene was just SO surreal.

Prior to that, I'd had hundreds of obe experiences on the Astral but could never project into the real-time zone. Yes, I freely admit that it could be argued my Astral experiences may have been just fantastic kinds of dreams that some human beings can have. That is exactly what I thought at first. But I say to these doubters, forget arguing some theoretical point: use the energy to learn to project for yourself and then you can make a balanced decision having experienced both sides of the issue.

Also, to those who say Astral techniques could be used to track down murderers, etc. Well, here's your golden opportunity to develop them! What you need to please consider, is that what we are involved with here is a new and emerging science.

I have no doubt that, in the future, it could well be possible to eliminate crime by use of some kind of Astral technique. If someone were to ask me why I don't try and do that myself, my answer would be that I'm simply not interested. In the sense that I'm having a great time experiencing what I'm experiencing and that is that.

You see, your actual physical character determines to a high degree the kinds of Astral adventures you experience. Your character also determines, to a degree, the kind of physical life you lead too. But it has a MUCH GREATER effect on the Astral than the physical.

As far as politics are concerned, I could not be more disinterested. It is an area of life that has always been riddled with hypocrisy. But no more so than today.

One moment a government is arming others to the teeth and teaching them to shoot. Next minute these same people are labelled as terrorists and hunted down. To me, it's the same old clap-trap that keeps being regurgitated and eaten, time and time and time again. One government's terrorist is another government's freedom-fighter, and they all get switched around according to taste.

So here we have yet another war fought in the name of peace... and yet again all the right thinking, peace loving people in the world roll their eyes in complete despair.

That's my heart-felt opinion, hence the reason why my Astral experiences could not involve anything to do with searching for terrorists, etc. However, as I say, if any of you think differently then get out there, on the Astral, and develop the techniques!

Yours,
Frank        

[Mobius]

David,many doctors & psychiatrists have been involved in using
Electroencephalographs ( brain activity measuring device)to measure
OBE experiences,dreams,lucid dreams,REM & psychic phenomena.
A definate difference was detected during the time of monitoring
these OBE,ers & while they couldn't see spirits flying around
everywhere & the people inside the OBE scenario didnt seem to sell
any maps or directories,they did gather enough information which has
sparked a new revival in OBE,ing.

A few have been Monroe,D.Scott Rogo & Uri gellar.

Good journeys

Mobius

[jo]

At the Monroe Institute, in the Laboratory, Skip Attwater (creator of STARGATE and ex RVer) affixes electrode thingies (sorry...can't remember correct technical terminology)to monitor and record the brain as you are taken to higher/more expanded levels of consciousness through advanced techniques in hemi sync.The results are quite extraordinary.This is a totally scientific process.

jo

[PeacefulWarrior]

Although I shall take the time at a later date to comment on this topic, I just wanted to say something about Nightfliers experiment.  I think what he did, which was to toss a random card into a suspended shoe box lid and then project his consciousness in order to identify it- This is a great idea.  We should all attempt similar in home experiments and then report, even if it is just in our personal journals, but even more importantly in forums such as this...I find this "grassroots" type of experimentation to be very important to help us all truly realize the potential of our own minds and of course this is extremely beneficial to those who sre skeptical or otherwise wary about this.

"Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"

[Atlas]

Hi guys
Ok here are my thoughts. First, I think that's fine and dandy that Joe Mcmoneagle saw through a japanese woman's eyes. In fact, I saw him on a show a few years ago and was very impressed. However, that to me seems like a parlor trick. Why doesn't he look through OSAMA'S eyes (just an example). Why doesn't he do something USEFUL with this skill, if he has it. and I know i'm going to get the "but what is useful?" question. You know what I mean. Why doesn't he save someone's life with this skill? Why doesn't he ever "find" someone worth finding?
Those scientific tests are interesting, and I completely agree that there are many scientists who are NOT objective, and do not judge claims based on the evidence presented to support them but rather disregard them outright because of subject matter. Not very scientific. My problem is, regardless of scientific tests, if people had these abilities there would be MANY profound ways they could help human lives, and they don't. Locating disaster victims. Locating kidnapped persons. Locating criminals. Don't you think oppressive regimes like soviet russia or china would have legions of these people to locate political dissidents or find underground cells of rebels so they could be wiped out?
I really am not that concerned about whether someone is ACTUALLY leaving the body and not just having some sort of esp experience that SEEMS out of body. What I am interested in is knowing whether anyone can actually receive knowledge that they did not have beforehand regarding some fact or object or location in the PHYSICAL WORLD through the OBE experience. I guess that's the heart of what I'm after.
Jo, I totally believe that it is possible for things like hemisync to change the level of consciousness. Proof of that isn't really what I'm after personally, I think thats been pretty well documented.

Sorry for the length guys, i'm just very interested in this area of the subject matter

Atlas

[Mobius]

Hi Atlas,a few of my reply's have dissapeared so I'll keep this one
short.
The reason I suspect in regards to the validity of OBE,s is an age
old topic & it's all about who has access to the "right" information.
Suppose you "did" develop your OBE skills to the point where you
could project real time into the present,past or future anytime.
We humans are an opportunistic bunch,but also the top predator on
this planet.Most living organisms are programmed for survival & to
look after themselves first,unfortunately us humans took it to
another level & because money was entered into the equation,we have
come to the conclusion "work smart,not hard".
If I can get enough of this stuff they call "money",not only will I
not have to do much,I can gaurantee my offspring will have a better
chance than everyone else & they wont have to do much either.
That is why things like Monarchies,Emperors,Secret organizations
like The Knights Templar,Knights of Malta,Freemasons,The Vatican
have clung to their much guarded secrets,money & power.

Lets take a look at OBE'ing from a capatalists point of view.
Suppose tomorrow you somehow acquire this skill OBE'ing into the
future with control.You decide "hang on why am I working? why dont I
just go & win the lottery again & again?"
"Do I want the eyes of the world on me & everyone trying to track me
down to ask" "Teach me" or "Can you see inside our top secret base?"

Then you think "hang on,why win the lottery for $10 million &
attract attention,why not the stockmarket for 100,s of millions"

I,ve taken this to one of its extremes I know,but if you were "Recruited" by one of these organizations,would they want you
to look for Osama or other rebels or would they want you to turn
over another billion for them?
Most people dont want to be drawn into someone elses fight,without
knowing all the facts.

Those who live by the sword..........get shot by those who don't!

Good journeys,Good questions.

Mobius

[Rob]

quote:if people had these abilities there would be MANY profound ways they could help human lives, and they don't. Locating disaster victims. Locating kidnapped persons. Locating criminals

Whoa there - thats quite an absolute and sweeping statement! How do you know that? There may well be lots of very skilled psychics and OBEers discreetly helping the world, doing all the things you have said but:
a) You would rarely hear about it, all the little miracles these people may achieve would go completely unreported.
b) Most authorities would not even bother to listen to such people, so in the larger cases eg Bin Laden (trained and funded by the CIA, theoretically until he went rogue...) the government would plain ignore them. Therefore you would never know they were right.

Not quite as clear cut as you suggest IMO....

Oh I just remembered, I saw a documentary or something on TV ages ago, in which they were looking for clues in a murder case, and one of the coppers got a skilled psychic in to the crime scene (some woodland). Psychic quickly locates a critical piece of evidence, allowing the police to solve the case. Now I do not know how rare this is, but suspect it is more of a well used apporach that we suspect, in the police will usually try anything to get the material they need. I also suspect that many of the higher level police people could tell you lots of similar stories.
So it does happen, but like I say, most people will never hear about it, because thats the way the world works - they don't want to hear things which will cause them to change their beliefs. Olds, not news....

Frank: very well said

[Frank]

quote:
Hi guys
Ok here are my thoughts. First, I think that's fine and dandy that Joe Mcmoneagle saw through a japanese woman's eyes. In fact, I saw him on a show a few years ago and was very impressed. However, that to me seems like a parlor trick. Why doesn't he look through OSAMA'S eyes (just an example). Why doesn't he do something USEFUL with this skill, if he has it. and I know i'm going to get the "but what is useful?" question. You know what I mean. Why doesn't he save someone's life with this skill? Why doesn't he ever "find" someone worth finding?
Those scientific tests are interesting, and I completely agree that there are many scientists who are NOT objective, and do not judge claims based on the evidence presented to support them but rather disregard them outright because of subject matter. Not very scientific. My problem is, regardless of scientific tests, if people had these abilities there would be MANY profound ways they could help human lives, and they don't. Locating disaster victims. Locating kidnapped persons. Locating criminals. Don't you think oppressive regimes like soviet russia or china would have legions of these people to locate political dissidents or find underground cells of rebels so they could be wiped out?
I really am not that concerned about whether someone is ACTUALLY leaving the body and not just having some sort of esp experience that SEEMS out of body. What I am interested in is knowing whether anyone can actually receive knowledge that they did not have beforehand regarding some fact or object or location in the PHYSICAL WORLD through the OBE experience. I guess that's the heart of what I'm after.
Jo, I totally believe that it is possible for things like hemisync to change the level of consciousness. Proof of that isn't really what I'm after personally, I think thats been pretty well documented.

Sorry for the length guys, i'm just very interested in this area of the subject matter

Atlas

For the answers you need to read through your post and substitute the word YOU when you talk of questions about why do not others... etc., etc.

Yours,
Frank

[Atlas]

>>Whoa there - thats quite an absolute and sweeping statement! How do you know that? There may well be lots of very skilled psychics and OBEers discreetly helping the world, doing all the things you have said but:
a) You would rarely hear about it, all the little miracles these people may achieve would go completely unreported.<<

So what you are saying is that OBEers or RVers would AVOID high profile cases? they need as much help as anyone. It seems to me they would just take the cases where they thought their abilities would be of best use. I mean if an OBEer solved a high profile murder/ kidnap case, I doubt it would be "discreet". Your a) appears to me to be just as much of an assumption as mine, and also a sweeping statement. How do you know we aren't hearing about it because it's NOT HAPPENING?
Thanks for the post.

Atlas

[Atlas]

>>For the answers you need to read through your post and substitute the word YOU when you talk of questions about why do not others... etc., etc. <<

Frank I don't see your point. I WOULD do all those things, if I had the OBE/RV ability. That's why i'm wondering where all the action is. I mean if i substitute I for all the "theys" in my post, it just confirms what I'm saying because it seems to me any normal person would use their abilities to help out others in cases like those. Trust me if I had the means to find a kidnapped little girl, I'm 100% positive I would do it. Thanks for the post.

Atlas