Clarification

[Inico]

I've got several questions I can't answer for certain myself pertaining to achieving an OBE.  Everyone who can answer based off of their own personal experiences, I'd really appreciate it. I'd be happy for multiple replies rather than one, so I can get a better, broader idea.
I have not been able to project after half a year; so if I can get any help It'd make things easier, of course!

When you are using exit methods, is your point of consciousness (which is usually located behind your eyes) actually moving, or are you imagining yourself moving, which eventually triggers the actual OBE? I can imagine rope climbing or rolling or whatever, but at the end of the night, I'm still just lying there in my bed imagining it and my point of consciousness is still behind my eyes. I can create sensations, but not move my point of consciousness.

When you are astrally projecting or experiencing any form of OBE, is it identical to the waking state or more akin to dreaming?

What happens when you reach the moment of projection?

How do you relate your mind to the physical space around you?

At what point do you draw the line between your consciousness and what is just your fleshy, physical body? How much of your mind do you take with you?

Do you maintain awareness of your body throughout meditation or do you eventually attempt to ignore it? Aka - do you keep stimulating your energy body or stop at some point?

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I'm starting to get really sad and frustrated, so if anyone can answer these questions I can better understand what I am trying to achieve.

[Tiny]

Dear Inico,

first of all the practice should be one as natural as possible and one shouldn't follow any systems or place restrictions upon self. It will only get confusing and frustrating with no real progress. The key component is relaxation not effort - ironically the more effort the more failure I can guarantee you this from my own experience.

Secondly, it should be remembered that most projectors probably have never or rarely achieve wake induced projections but fall asleep and for some reason happen to wake up in the right state of consciousness and opportunistically use this to project.

The difficulty with the OBEs is that they can be described but not adequately taught not even to oneself. One can only rely on one's own experience.

The state of consciousness during OBE is one that is comparable to waking consciousness. However one can daydream (mental projection) while in the OBE-state like one can daydream while in the physical body. So the dream-body is always there parallel to the primary bodies like the astral body and physical body.

If you feel frustrated, go back to zero, lie down with no plans or efforts and just try to relax as deeply as possible.

As you relax more and more at some point you will eventually get "loose" and then you can succesfully use focus to move the etheric or astral bodies.
But again - most people don't manage to get loose - they fall asleep for a while, then wake up finding themselves loose and using that momentum to project.


kind regards,

Paul

[Inico]

I appreciate the reply. It makes sense - I've actually realised, for example, how trying to force the experience is usually a block to learning. I am actually most successful when I just start meditation; by lying down, closing my eyes and feeling out.

My biggest stumbling block is the idea of my point of consciousness exiting my head, which I have never found and fish hooks to get a better understanding of.

I feel I get stuck because I don't know what I'm supposed to be feeling. 

[Tiny]

My biggest stumbling block is the idea of my point of consciousness exiting my head, which I have never found and fish hooks to get a better understanding of.

Well I usually exit through the forehead and when it happens it is a very physical, non-imagined experience much like launching on water-skis. I would also get a tremendous buzz in one ear like the sound of wind rushing by.

I've also had experiences of full body exits where unlike the forehead exits I would not just be a free floating camera but a body copy resembling the physical one.


kind regards,

Paul

[personalreality]

You're trying to hard.  Bottom line.  You need to let your consciousness drift into almost sleep.  Total single-minded focus.  This is why I really don't understand how anyone can do the rope method because it keeps your mind too active.  I tried for a really long time, following Robert Bruce's directions to the T and never even got close.  Then one day I just stopped and tried not trying and it worked.

Much more like a waking state to me.

I can feel myself kind of buzzing and I just begin to rise, then I "push" myself upwards with my will and THEN i roll out.

I don't even do energy work prior to projection anymore because it keeps my mind too stimulated.

I take all of my mind with me.

My whole body exits at once.

[Inico]

Hey personalreality, I've read your posts in the past too. 
I am finding a lot of inspiration in Frank's ideas. What do you think about them?

You've both reminded me I'm trying too hard, that I'm forcing it - and most importantly, that I'll feel the shift when it happens as if it were physical. So I'll know it isn't my imagination!

I'm excited, and if you could indulge my questioning further - what are you feeling to make that experience happen? Do you simply will it? Or is it automatic? These points are key to me because I try various approaches which break my state of mind.

[Xanth]

If Frank's Phasing Model is what you've subscribed to, then realize that you're not "moving" or "going" anywhere when you project.
You're simply changing your focus of attention.  You'll definitely "feel" a shift though when you change your focus of attention.

You can't really "will" any of this to happen... you just relax and provide the correct triggers.  The trigger will depend entirely upon you and what works best for *YOU. 

In my case, reading the Phasing Resource (http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html ) helped the most to find my trigger, which in this case is using a "rundown" or "noticing".

I hope that helps a bit.

~Ryan

[dbmathis]

The way I achieve what is called an OBE varies. Normally I need to been semi-rested and relaxed. I simply close my eye's and I stop thinking. It is critical for me to stop thinking or nothing happens. Once I am relaxed and my thoughts are turned off normally what happens is that my physical body sensory input ends and I am left with a single point of consciousness.

Normally at this point things come natural. I usually find that I have transitioned to seeing without eyes and simply teleport to a desired location or simply float  out of my house and proceed to explore what people call the RTZ. I really don't use exit techniques lately, however when I first started I would instinctively roll out to one side which always seemed to work.

Please understand that I have never mistaken this state for a dream. I know my physical world name and have full waking consciousness. I normally have sight, hearing and sense of touch. Sometimes my consciousness is shared between my physical aspect and my other point of awareness.

I hope this helps

[Inico]

Thank you Xanth.  
Since Frank seems to have vanished I always look to your posts with a keen eye.

I checked out that very same resource earlier.

I had actually forgotten that I'm not moving anywhere! Shame on me, for having considered myself a fan of Frank and having forgotten something so essential!   It makes a whole lot more sense to me that way, as I find it illogical to have to be in another part of my room to experience something spiritual when my bed will do just fine. Though the logic behind the reason why is different in practice.  

While I subscribe to Frank's views, I still entertain a belief that maybe everyone is right in their own way; and all models of consciousness are true. It is simply our physical minds downloading the data which give us different interpretations of the same thing, I suppose.

Reading Frank's work reminds me that my experience this morning was likely a powerful case of Focus 2, as he described a situation I had quite perfectly.

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To dbmathis, I've heard of the idea of clearing thoughts to project, but then again I've also heard accounts of using one's imagination to induce the projection. It's these contrasting ideas that have confused me! And yet I don't think anyone is any less right about the methodology, but it's still confusing.

[soli]

To dbmathis, I've heard of the idea of clearing thoughts to project, but then again I've also heard accounts of using one's imagination to induce the projection. It's these contrasting ideas that have confused me! And yet I don't think anyone is any less right about the methodology, but it's still confusing.

if you've subscribed to Frank's model then clearing some of your thoughts to project is "noticing", and using your imagination in a scene is a rundown. They do not contrast at all, it is only because there is confusion on what is actually being done and so they're being put together as opposites when they are two different methods where the only real differentiation is the amount of active visualization involved. You can theoretically notice in a rundown, thus "clearing thoughts to project" as well as "using one's imagination to induce a projection", at the exact same time.

[dbmathis]

To dbmathis, I've heard of the idea of clearing thoughts to project, but then again I've also heard accounts of using ones imagination to induce the projection. It's these contrasting ideas that have confused me! And yet I don't think anyone is any less right about the methodology, but it's still confusing.

The more you think about it the less results you will have based on my experience. You have to understand that some are better than others at describing in "words" what is actually going on. What do they actually mean by imagination? It's hard to know. Perhaps they meant fill their mind with random images that have no association with "thought"? My suggestion to you is to not dwell so much on "words" and use your intuition more. Remember that sometimes what you read is not what the writer meant.

When repeating a mantra, imagining an image or remembering the taste of an award winning BBQ I might conclude that it was precisely those actions that caused the altered state of consciousness. Then on the other hand all of the actions lead to a cessation of incessant thought. Stop thinking about things and let your mind go blank. It's hard to do I know. See what happens. Don't expect anything because that's thinking again and nothing will happen. Stop thinking.

I hope this helps.

[soli]

The more you think about it the less results you will have based on my experience. You have to understand that some are better than others at describing in "words" what is actually going on. What do they actually mean by imagination? It's hard to know. Perhaps they meant fill their mind with random images that have no association with "thought"? My suggestion to you is to not dwell so much on "words" and use your intuition more. Remember that sometimes what you read is not what the writer meant.

When repeating a mantra, imagining an image or remembering the taste of an award winning BBQ I might conclude that it was precisely those actions that caused the altered state of consciousness. Then on the other hand all of the actions lead to a cessation of incessant thought. Stop thinking about things and let your mind go blank. It's hard to do I know. See what happens. Don't expect anything because that's thinking again and nothing will happen. Stop thinking.

I hope this helps.

why is it so wrong to want to understand what is actually being done?

[Xanth]

if you've subscribed to Frank's model then clearing your thoughts to project is "noticing", and using your imagination in a scene is a rundown. They do not contrast at all, it is only because there is confusion on what is actually being done and so they're being put together as opposites when they are two different methods where the only real differentiation is the amount of active visualization involved. You can theoretically notice in a rundown, thus "clearing thoughts to project" as well as "using one's imagination to induce a projection", at the exact same time.

That is half true.
You don't want to silence *every* thought you have... it's not necessary.
You simply want to silence the "surface thoughts".  These are described as your "inner monologue".

"Noticing" is simply an exercise we do to remove awareness of our physical body.

[soli]

That is half true.
You don't want to silence *every* thought you have... it's not necessary.
You simply want to silence the "surface thoughts".  These are described as your "inner monologue".

"Noticing" is simply an exercise we do to remove awareness of our physical body.

How can you silence every thought you have when you're not given conscious awareness of them to silence? Never did I say every as I was only quoting to draw a comparison even if the statements were not entirely accurate to the terminology given  >.>

[Xanth]

How can you silence every thought you have when you're not given conscious awareness of them to silence?

I think you're seriously over complicating things. 

As I said, the point isn't to silence *every* thought.
What I mean is, your goal isn't to keep a quiet mind... just to quiet the surface thoughts.

~Ryan

[Inico]

What Xanth says makes sense, as I know that there is a difference between surface thoughts and the dialogue of feeling. I suppose surface thoughts, to me, are hearing myself try to speak to myself and getting derailed into thinking about my day.

[soli]

I think you're seriously over complicating things.  

As I said, the point isn't to silence *every* thought.
What I mean is, your goal isn't to keep a quiet mind... just to quiet the surface thoughts.

~Ryan

not really, I completely agree with you, I'm just wondering where I said every thought <.< I edited it to make you happy

[dbmathis]

why is it so wrong to want to understand what is actually being done?

It's not wrong to want to understand. However you will never understand until you get there. Learn first, understand later. For example I learn to write code regularly. Then I get experience writing code which is when understanding in introduced. Learning and experiencing are two very different things and more often learning comes before understanding.

[dbmathis]

Another example would be me telling you all about learning how to ride a skateboard. I can tell you all day how to do it and conceptually you might think you have it. Once you get on the skateboard and bust your butt, then you understand.

[soli]

It's not wrong to want to understand. However you will never understand until you get there. Learn first, understand later. For example I learn to write code regularly. Then I get experience writing code which is when understanding in introduced. Learning and experiencing are two very different things and more often learning comes before understanding.

What if I'm only trying to understand in between periods of learning to help with my ability to learn?

[Naykid]

It's damned impossible to silence all thought in one's head.  When my mind wandered, I found the worst thing you could do was focus on the fact that you just let your mind wander, thus thought crept in!  

Just move on, that worked for me. Sometimes I simply counted.  Yep, counted. And when I noticed that I lost track of what number I was on, that caused me to be more aware and I would start over.  Not saying it will work for you, but just throwing out other possible avenues.

[dbmathis]

I think people are also taking this absence of thought too seriously . When you clear thoughts more thoughts will creep in and the trick is to observe the thoughts without becoming attached to them. You will be observing your mind thinking from a separate awareness. Do you see where this is going?

[Inico]

I agree with what dbmathis is saying, of course. I'll use my own analogy here of learning to ride a bicycle by reading about it - but you'll need to crash and burn most likely first.

However, what I do think I can get help with is how to learn to get onto the bike, so I can at least begin crashing and burning.  
I've made some sweet progress over the months and I know I will achieve my objective eventually. At worst, I'll die one day of natural causes or whatever, then I'll have reached Focus 3 regardless.

I'd like to ask you fellows though - how did achieving your first OBE affect your life? When I thought I had an OBE this morning (it was just Focus 2, dreaming of projecting), I felt like the world took on a whole new meaning. It was confirmation of what I believed.

I'm looking forward to getting a genuine case of validation, though.

Are you still discovering new things? I can't imagine being awake being any fun in comparison to the adventure of the OBEs I've read about.

[dbmathis]

I can say that having these experiences has completely opened up many new and interesting possibilities for me. I am no longer trapped within beliefs, which is one of the most liberating feelings I have ever had to date.

I would like for you to at least consider seriously why you think you are on Earth as a human. There is a very real reason why we are here experiencing this life and I think it might be for spiritual growth. This experience as being a human joke may actually be helping us all to grow and is every bit as interesting as other states of consciousness.

At worst, I'll die one day of natural causes or whatever, then I'll have reached Focus 3 <-- Very good!

[soli]

I agree with what dbmathis is saying, of course. I'll use my own analogy here of learning to ride a bicycle by reading about it - but you'll need to crash and burn most likely first.

However, what I do think I can get help with is how to learn to get onto the bike, so I can at least begin crashing and burning.  
I've made some sweet progress over the months and I know I will achieve my objective eventually. At worst, I'll die one day of natural causes or whatever, then I'll have reached Focus 3 regardless.

I'd like to ask you fellows though - how did achieving your first OBE affect your life? When I thought I had an OBE this morning (it was just Focus 2, dreaming of projecting), I felt like the world took on a whole new meaning. It was confirmation of what I believed.

I'm looking forward to getting a genuine case of validation, though.

Are you still discovering new things? I can't imagine being awake being any fun in comparison to the adventure of the OBEs I've read about.

I know that experience is the best teacher of course as all knowledge is gained initially from experience, yet why can experience not be passed on? Being awake in the physical is preparing for the next attempt to xxxx to me. I don't really think we are in a state of disagreeance on experience. In my opinion f1 is to prepare us for f3 so we don't get stuck in belief constructs. Also, your case of validation will be when you choose to believe.