Classic OBE vs. Phasing

[WASD]

I was wondering if Classic OBE and Phasing are just 2 different paths to the same destination. Or if they are different kind of experiences.

I've had more than 100 LD's that I personally don't consider AP (Xanth does). I've also had one classic OBE. First came the vibrations and the buzzing then i hovered out of my body. It was completely different from a dream. If some of those high-lucidity LD's I've had were actually AP then Classic OBE and AP is 2 separate things in my view.

Can someone who have experienced both Classic OBE and AP by Phasing comment on this?

[Pauli2]

Buhlman can.

He only considers an OBE as a state where you have an Out-of-Body-Experience, you go out of body. Read this Newsletters of his on lucid dreams -> http://www.astralinfo.org/newslettermar2003.htm

He tells you how to turn an LD into a full OBE in that Newsletter:

"Awareness now!"

Buhlman.

The real deal.


Not some never proven crap Franky phasing mumbo jumbo, where you never are IN your body, so you can never go OUT of it.

[Astral316]

Lucid Dream: You KNOW you're dreaming, any further distinction is more or less subjective interpretation... upgrade to AP/OBE if you are fully conscious with cognitive function intact.

Phasing: Perception of separation from body isn't noticed, smoother transition generally... usually induced consciously.

Classic OBE: Perception of separation from body is noticed and you'll get a range of sensory input during transition... usually indirect/spontaneous.

OBE/AP: More or less the same thing... people differentiate based on where you end up (Here-Now/RTZ/Etheric vs. Astral Plane/Fantasy Land) but I see them as synonymous.

[djed]

Classic OBE you can firstly stick around the etheric level and inspect the local area where you live, staying close to the physical but away from your body, walking through walls etc.. It is interesting because things are not quite what you expect there is what has been termed 'fluctuations of reality'. Usually, if I choose to do this, it is not long before I will be caught up by a 'wind' and enter into either the tunnel or the astral levels.
Cheers, djed   

[personalreality]

both are the same, along with numerous other types of "metaphysical journeying".

the destination and the interpretation change with the culture that produces it.

nothing else is different.

if phasing/obe doesn't work for you, try active imagination, shamanic journeying, remote viewing, etc. etc. etc.

it's silly to try and separate them and quite honestly a hindrance to one's development of such skills.

[Bedeekin]

Wow... interesting differences of opinion.

I have experienced Lucid Dreams and usually end up waking in SP, whereupon I then enter AP. I have done so, many times. I distinguish between them as different levels of focus. Nothing goes anywhere. Nothing leaves the body. Nothing can possess you.

1st Phase is different. I call it 1st phase because it's what I seemed to practice more when I was younger. I sort of expelled APing or 2nd Phase as I call it.

Phasing is probably the same thing as lucid dreaming and AP.

Purely by experience and of teaching the traditional method of inducing SP/VS it seems that the floaty 1st phase requires deep state sleep paralysis. This I have come to learn.

[personalreality]

I feel like there is a celebrity in my midst. 

I thoroughly enjoyed your method bedeekin. 

[Bedeekin]

lol... celebrity... hardly. cheers mate. Glad it helped though.

I'm liking your straight no bullpoo manner by the way.

[Xanth]

I was wondering if Classic OBE and Phasing are just 2 different paths to the same destination. Or if they are different kind of experiences.

This would be my opinion.
Two sides up the same mountain.

[Pauli2]

Nothing goes anywhere. Nothing leaves the body.

According to Buhlman, you have to go inward in order to go out of body. And it's not inward in the 3 dimensional physical space:
The Buhlman method, move inward to get out of body (OBE).

"Awareness Now!"


Read also this Buhlman Newsletter -> Moving inward & melting hands

"This also explains why your immediate surrounding will seem to dissolve away when you demand "Awareness Now". This focused demand will initiate an inner shift of consciousness. In reality you are shifting your awareness inward, within yourself, within the universe that is you. As your awareness increases your consciousness will automatically move or shift to a higher or finer vibrational state. As this occurs your surroundings will appear to change, dissolve and disappear until a new reality becomes manifest around you. Stay calm and centered, you have just experienced the wonder of inner dimensional travel and a great mystery of the universe is unveiled."

Read that!

"...inner dimensional travel..."


And also this Buhlman advice: How to see your physical body by moving away from it:

"How can I observe my own body during an OBE?

For many one of the most fascinating things to do during an OBE is to observe your own or a loved ones "physical" body. This can be more challenging then it may appear. First move away from your body about ten feet and center yourself with an awareness demand such as, "Clarity Now or Awareness Now." When attempting this it is important to remain emotionally centered and unattached to the form you are observing for there is an inherent tendency to "snap back" to the body if you identify with it. The key to this kind of observation is to become a completely dispassionate observer and ask for clarity when ever your perception is less then ideal."

You move!

"...move away from your body about ten feet..."

Move!

MOOOOOOVE!!!¤"#%"¤%%&%/!!!!!

move

out-of-body

!

[Xanth]

According to Buhlman, you have to go inward in order to go out of body. And it's not inward in the 3 dimensional physical space:
The Buhlman method, move inward to get out of body (OBE)!

"inward" is a term used to describe physical movement.

Most people, including Buhlman, don't usually understand this... but you, literally, can't use any physical descriptions to denote 'where' one goes when they project. 

OUT of body
Move WITHIN
PROJECT your consciousness

They're all terms that describe physical dimensions of movement.

Suffice to say... when you "project", your consciousness isn't in this physical reality frame.  That's really all one can say.

[Tee1234]

This would be my opinion.
Two sides up the same mountain.

I dont know, I kinda disagree with the 2 of ya. Im gonna try and explain what I mean...

I believe an OBE is in a class all on its own. To me, For me to have an Obe I lay in my bed, get the vibrations and leave my body. When I leave my body I actually sit up in bed and turn around and see my physical body sleeping. I usually stay in real time for 15 sec or so before things start to go into the astral world. Sometimes, if I stay by my physical body, like right nxt to it/dont leave my bedroom, then il stay in real time longer but once I get some distance from my (physical) body I immediately go into the astral world. -Dont know why that is??
Now there's things I can do to stay in real time but thats a different topic-

Before I go on, I wanna bust a myth real quick.  When I first exit my body, im in real time. Now, I have 2 cats and they both cuddle at the bottom of my bed and sleep with me. After my exit I used to always start dancin and doing everything I could to get their attention but they CANT see me. -NO MATTER WHAT i did. So as far as I know, animals cant see you. -or at least my cats cant, maybe their slow though.

Now as far as lucid dreams go- ive been there before as well, but I consider this just a dream that I know im dreaming. I think if your dreamn, your dreaming. Unless somehow your dreaming and can somehow shoot yourself into the real world etc, Id have to say its just an awesome lucid dream.
-ALSO-
I can stay in the Astral for hours, literally. With full knowledge of everything that happened. Now this is another thing thats completely different about a lucid dream. Once the dream becomes lucid you practically have a countdown till u wake. Complete opposite of an OBE where you control how long you stay.

I think the only way to have an OBE is through the vibrations. If your dreamn -your dreamn. I question the phasing thing, dont really see how you can compare it to an OBE at all. To me, The vibrations mean everything.

[Pauli2]

To me, The vibrations mean everything.

yeah, vabrations is da shlt.

phasing is just shlt.

[Xanth]

I dont know, I kinda disagree with the 2 of ya. Im gonna try and explain what I mean...

I believe an OBE is in a class all on its own. To me, For me to have an Obe I lay in my bed, get the vibrations and leave my body. When I leave my body I actually sit up in bed and turn around and see my physical body sleeping. I usually stay in real time for 15 sec or so before things start to go into the astral world. Sometimes, if I stay by my physical body, like right nxt to it/dont leave my bedroom, then il stay in real time longer but once I get some distance from my (physical) body I immediately go into the astral world. -Dont know why that is??

Yup, that's a pretty powerful experience... to move "out" of your body, then turn around and see your physical shell just lying there.
Although, to me, that's all built around perception... the perception that you're "in" your body to begin with.  It's a perception that I don't personally support.

Before I go on, I wanna bust a myth real quick.  When I first exit my body, im in real time. Now, I have 2 cats and they both cuddle at the bottom of my bed and sleep with me. After my exit I used to always start dancin and doing everything I could to get their attention but they CANT see me. -NO MATTER WHAT i did. So as far as I know, animals cant see you. -or at least my cats cant, maybe their slow though.

See, the thing with that is that those might not even be your cats... they might be your representation of your cats.  Meaning, subconsciously, you choose whether they can see you or not.  It's all part and parcel of the question behind "Is the RTZ a real place directly connected with our physical reality?"

And really... you can probably answer that question a hundred different ways, all of which rely upon experience and belief.
Of which, I have my own answers for.  hehe

Now as far as lucid dreams go- ive been there before as well, but I consider this just a dream that I know im dreaming. I think if your dreamn, your dreaming. Unless somehow your dreaming and can somehow shoot yourself into the real world etc, Id have to say its just an awesome lucid dream.
-ALSO-
I can stay in the Astral for hours, literally. With full knowledge of everything that happened. Now this is another thing thats completely different about a lucid dream. Once the dream becomes lucid you practically have a countdown till u wake. Complete opposite of an OBE where you control how long you stay.

My opinion is that there is only "here" (this physical reality frame) and "there" (one of the infinite number of reality frames that aren't this one).
The place where we dream, lucid dream and astral project, for example, is the "Dream reality frame".
I actually have become quite disliking the terms "dream", "lucid dream" and "astral projection".  They're too limiting... and divisive, as you can clearly see from this forum and more to the point, this very thread.

I think the only way to have an OBE is through the vibrations. If your dreamn -your dreamn. I question the phasing thing, dont really see how you can compare it to an OBE at all. To me, The vibrations mean everything.

To me, they're all the same experience split by perception.

[Bedeekin]

Regardless of the title... there is no vs. It's not a tinkling contest. Neither is phasing and 'classic' SP induction like playstation vs 360 or VHS vs Betamax.

Phasing isn't excrement... definitely not.

I didn't understand phasing when Xanth first mentioned it on AVers forum. I learned that I have experienced it once or twice and that one of my friends uses it to project. We have sat night after night discussing our 'adventures'. To all intent and purpose we are talking about the same destination using slightly different paths.

I dont know, I kinda disagree with the 2 of ya. Im gonna try and explain what I mean...

I believe an OBE is in a class all on its own. To me, For me to have an Obe I lay in my bed, get the vibrations and leave my body. When I leave my body I actually sit up in bed and turn around and see my physical body sleeping. I usually stay in real time for 15 sec or so before things start to go into the astral world. Sometimes, if I stay by my physical body, like right nxt to it/dont leave my bedroom, then il stay in real time longer but once I get some distance from my (physical) body I immediately go into the astral world. -Dont know why that is??
Now there's things I can do to stay in real time but thats a different topic-

Before I go on, I wanna bust a myth real quick.  When I first exit my body, im in real time. Now, I have 2 cats and they both cuddle at the bottom of my bed and sleep with me. After my exit I used to always start dancin and doing everything I could to get their attention but they CANT see me. -NO MATTER WHAT i did. So as far as I know, animals cant see you. -or at least my cats cant, maybe their slow though.

Now as far as lucid dreams go- ive been there before as well, but I consider this just a dream that I know im dreaming. I think if your dreamn, your dreaming. Unless somehow your dreaming and can somehow shoot yourself into the real world etc, Id have to say its just an awesome lucid dream.
-ALSO-
I can stay in the Astral for hours, literally. With full knowledge of everything that happened. Now this is another thing thats completely different about a lucid dream. Once the dream becomes lucid you practically have a countdown till u wake. Complete opposite of an OBE where you control how long you stay.

I think the only way to have an OBE is through the vibrations. If your dreamn -your dreamn. I question the phasing thing, dont really see how you can compare it to an OBE at all. To me, The vibrations mean everything.

I know what you mean also.

I assume that when you talk about OBE you are meaning 'real-time' projection... local 1... 1st phase.

I find that Dreams, LDs and aspects of what we call AP are the same thing. Just different entry modalities varying in conscious awareness quality.

[Pauli2]

Yup, that's a pretty powerful experience... to move "out" of your body, then turn around and see your physical shell just lying there.
Although, to me, that's all built around perception... the perception that you're "in" your body to begin with.  It's a perception that I don't personally support.

You base your opinion on _what_ experience, that "you're not IN your body to begin with"?

Lucid Dreaming?

The words of the Master of Focus 22?

On what?

[Volgerle]

I find that Dreams, LDs and aspects of what we call AP are the same thing. Just different entry modalities varying in conscious awareness quality.

That puts it best for me. I also like K. Lelands approach to it who also calls it all 'adventures in consciousness'. (I also have my own name for it now, calling it "lucidventures" (or "lucadventures") because I came to the conclusion that the degree of lucidity during the experience is the most important measure, at least for me).

[Summerlander]

We must also consider that if we enter the realm of thoughts or the metaphysical realm, and everything is intrinsically made of thought, then we must be prepared to accept that even movement and the perception of space there is a thought, i.e. not physically defined. And with thought comes any simulation you may desire (consciously or unconsciously).

We may say we think we think but we must also remember that these distinctions that we make like 1st phase, 2nd phase, or Locale I...II...III etc. may still be just that. Two perceived simulations possibly constructed in our brains from the fact that A) we have an imagination...and B) our subconscious has a good idea of where things are in the physical environment and may construct replicas in an attempt to make sense to the conscious self...

Let's not forget that certain regions of our brain deal with specific functions that influence our cognition. Like the frontal lobe deals with planning, organization, personality, behaviour, emotions, motor skills, memory etc.; the thalamus could also process feedback on sensory information when the body is asleep; the right hemisphere dealing with auditory and visual memory...(random, intuitive, subjective and can help to make wild guesses too!!!) etc. etc. - many illusions can be created!!!

Let's not overlook the fact that the brain is still active when we have these experiences and that we have about 100 billion nerve cells called neurons that communicate with each other!!!!

What I'm trying to say here is that it could all be very much the same thing and it could still be in our heads. The "validations" may still be coincidental and if they are real, then it doesn't mean that we have actually been out of body, there are other explanations like everyone being connected in consciousness or even telepathic links. Cryptomnesia can also play a role in all of this...

But then again, what the hell do I know, right? I've only been projecting since 2008, and, despite a few "validations", I still don't have concrete proof that OOBEs exist in their literal sense...I can't claim to know for sure that there are two distinct categories such as Here-Now and Locale II. I mean...couldn't the distinctions of the Here-Now experience be replicated in the metaphysical realm?

[Tee1234]

Yup, that's a pretty powerful experience... to move "out" of your body, then turn around and see your physical shell just lying there.
Although, to me, that's all built around perception... the perception that you're "in" your body to begin with.  It's a perception that I don't personally support.
See, the thing with that is that those might not even be your cats... they might be your representation of your cats.  Meaning, subconsciously, you choose whether they can see you or not.  It's all part and parcel of the question behind "Is the RTZ a real place directly connected with our physical reality?"

And really... you can probably answer that question a hundred different ways, all of which rely upon experience and belief.
Of which, I have my own answers for.  hehe
My opinion is that there is only "here" (this physical reality frame) and "there" (one of the infinite number of reality frames that aren't this one).
The place where we dream, lucid dream and astral project, for example, is the "Dream reality frame".
I actually have become quite disliking the terms "dream", "lucid dream" and "astral projection".  They're too limiting... and divisive, as you can clearly see from this forum and more to the point, this very thread.
To me, they're all the same experience split by perception.

No.. Let me explain a little better.

As far as where I am when I exit my body Im definitely in real time. Let me explain.. like I said when I exit I see my body..

So heres what I did. My bedroom has a window, and outside the window is a flat roof. Usually when I exit thats where I go through the wall where my window is, and im on my way. But the moment I go through the wall Im in the astral -instantly. Heres how I know.

Ive experimented- I got dice (2di) One night before I went to bed I opened the window and rolled the dice on the roof but didnt look to see what I rolled. The idea was to project that night, see what I rolled then awake and confirm it.
So that night I projected and went out on the roof to check the dice to see what I rolled and when I looked at the dice it had letters where the dots were. lol I knew i was in the astral cause the dice didnt even have the little dots. (There's absolutely no letters on these dice I used, theres dots)

Anyway, I knew everything in the room was the same when I exited, so on another night I experimented again. But this time I rolled the dice right on the side of my bed. I didnt look at em. So that night I projected and looked at the dice. Everything looked normal, the dice said 5 and 1. So I immediately knew - I didnt even stay out, I immediately awoke myself. -And yes it was 5 n 1, it was confirmed. U cant have better confirmation then that.

Ive heard people say not to stay by your body cause you get sckd right back into it, but for me thats not the case. -not at all. I could stand there and watch tv in my room if I wanted, lol.

Once I leave my room, I leave the real world.

Im not sayn thats how it has to be for you cause it doesnt.
Its all about the vibrations for me. You see when my vibrations start there so hardcore that I just wait, let em ride out and when they finish I simply situp with my astral body and im in my bedroom or wherever it is that I am.

But also (((during the vibrations))) I can visualize that im somewhere else and when they end I situp and im at that place. Like, let me give an example- During the vibrations I'll visualize a beach and when the vibrations end i'll sit up and i'll be on a beach. But its not like ocean city or any real place its an astral beach and my physical body is no where in sight. Actually when I first started reading on here about phasing thats what I thought you guys meant. But thats obviously not what you guys mean when you say "phasing".
I dont usually do that much though Id rather just be in the comfort of my own bedroom. But im just sayn maybe its different for you cause you might be doing something different during your vibrations which is placing you right into the astral since you cant see your body. Just a thought.

Anyway for the people that do this "phasing" thing. If you not sure if its an OBE, know this- A real actual OBE you have complete control of how long you stay out, unless obvious reasons that would wake you up. But a lucid dream you wont be able to control it. Maybe you can for a short period of time but for the most part you have a time limit. Ive read on here somebody said they rub their hands together and blow on them or something like that to keep from wakening but in an obe you dont have to do any method. Your there till you wanna wake or till your body naturally wants to wake up.

Its hard to debate this (phasing) thing cause everyones different and only you know what you have has just experienced. -but that time limit thing seems like pretty good evidence to me that "phasing" and obe are not the same thing.

But really, when it comes to this sht I have no idea where the boundaries lie.

[Summerlander]

Once I leave my room, I leave the real world.

This is very typical. You can interpret this in a number of ways. You have either gone from the RTZ into the astral...OR...when we have such experiences we are unconsciously creating constructs every time, meaning not the real thing.

The immediate vicinity can often be accurate as the sensation of moving away from the body may prompt the brain to produce something that will make sense or that ties in with your separation decision. A construct from expectation. All the while it may not know that you are conscious of inducing what you call an OOBE.

The further away you go from the "expectation" construct which may display a few anomalies anyway, the more the neurons feel like they can "relax" become more loose in their communication and produce more nonsensical environments as by now they may be aware that the conscious self isn't necessarily expecting the rules that apply in waking life... not so strictly anyway. Perhaps the brain allows this to happens because it is aware that the conscious self will still retain its sanity. It is very much like one has entered a lucid dream from a 'waking state' of mind.

Did you know that if all the neural connections between your brain cells were laid out end to end they could reach to the moon and back? and the cells are more numerous than all the stars that we see in the universe. Think about that. Our brains are supercomputers which constantly develop if we look after ourselves. It also grew itself which is amazing!

[Xanth]

You base your opinion on _what_ experience, that "you're not IN your body to begin with"?

Lucid Dreaming?

The words of the Master of Focus 22?

On what?

I base them entirely upon my own experiences with Phasing and Lucid Dreaming. 
My direct experiences have proven to me that we're not in our bodies to begin with.

I'm sorry that my experiences completely contradict those that you're following of Moen and/or Buhlman, but I can only call it as "I" see it... but you're in absolutely no obligation to believe me.  What I DO ASK of you, and have asked you multiple times, is that you have your own experiences and try to confirm or deny it yourself.  Don't rely on Frank, Moen, Buhlman, Campbell or ANYONE else.  Only you can determine this for yourself.

I know you can do it, Pauli... I know you can, you just need to put in the time and effort.

[Bedeekin]

Absolutely. It is this pre-empting or opinion of what you think based on others experiences that leads to misunderstandings.

It seems that most 'non-published' practitioners hold a more common sense or even pragmatic view of AP its surrounding phenomena. You must ask why.

[Xanth]

Tee1234,

Perhaps this article I wrote for my website would make my ideas on the "RTZ" more clear. 

http://unlimitedboundaries.ca/2011/02/22/what-is-the-rtz-focus-1-projection/

[Bedeekin]

"I think that the real time zone is a collective, non-physical environment, much like you'd find in Focus 3 oC, it is being created and sustained by the collective conscious minds of the beings who inhabit this physical reality (aka us physical people)."

I can roll with that.

The foundation of my early experiences were primarily RTZ... which you know I call 1st Phase.

[personalreality]

this all sounds so complicated.

you just unplug from physical sensory input.  enough said.