Energy moving to project? what is this?

[Bellend_1010]

K I just got done messaging someone from the IAC (international academy of consciousness) who explained (not fully) a method of shifting energy up and down your body to eventually project. Would this be simply referring to chi? I am trying to find out more about what this person has explained but can't find a lot. Does anyone here know what this person could be referring to exactly?

This is what the person said when I was asking about it and said I was skeptical:

"You will know that it is real because you now the difference between imagination and real life. Being skeptical and having a critical awareness is fundamental to recognize a real OBE experience, so you are in your way! If you want to check by yourself if what you feel is real you will have to test yourself. First by knowing you better. Start by checking and recognizing what you normally feel being normal, then try the tecnique and check what you feel and see if its different."

I really am not sure whether or not to believe any of this hidden energy like chi claims as it seems it cannot be measured and is not proven which has always kept me away from any techniques claiming to project by using some type of "energy".

So what you guys think?

[Summerlander]

I think it's hopus pocus! Forget the energy bollocks. You don't need that. If you feel any energy waves during sleep paralysis (which is more likely to be the perception of the firing of neurons rather than this chi business) , it is up to you to play around with them with your mind. It isn't necessary though.

This is all I do to project: I go to bed at around midnight and wake up around 3am or 4am. I use the toilet and go down to induce an OOBE. I start by relaxing deeply and because I've been primed by my pre-nap/sleep, it doesn't take long for me to enter the Phase as the body falls asleep and the mind remains aware. Once the vibrations kick in, I let them peak, and, as they dwindle, I make an effort to separate by usually rolling over and out. This movement is NOT imagined. Do it as though you are moving physically. I find it easier to start from the head and the rest of the "body" will follow. Other times I'm just ejected out or I simply get out of bed to find that I've separated. This is how I enter the Phase most of the time. It is simpler than what people make it out to be.

The rest is history! The history that goes in your OOBE journal.

[Jarrod]

Energy feels pretty real to me when I'm doing energy work in a normal waking mind state.  I don't know how it affects AP but I think it probably does.  I don't think you should be too concerned with it for projection's sake though.  That's more of a mental thing.

[Bellend_1010]

Energy feels pretty real to me when I'm doing energy work in a normal waking mind state.

Could you tell me briefly what your energy work entails? thx.

[Tee1234]

K I just got done messaging someone from the IAC (international academy of consciousness) who explained (not fully) a method of shifting energy up and down your body to eventually project. Would this be simply referring to chi? I am trying to find out more about what this person has explained but can't find a lot. Does anyone here know what this person could be referring to exactly?

This is what the person said when I was asking about it and said I was skeptical:

"You will know that it is real because you now the difference between imagination and real life. Being skeptical and having a critical awareness is fundamental to recognize a real OBE experience, so you are in your way! If you want to check by yourself if what you feel is real you will have to test yourself. First by knowing you better. Start by checking and recognizing what you normally feel being normal, then try the tecnique and check what you feel and see if its different."

I really am not sure whether or not to believe any of this hidden energy like chi claims as it seems it cannot be measured and is not proven which has always kept me away from any techniques claiming to project by using some type of "energy".

So what you guys think?

It wont hurt to try it out. If your having problems achieving astral projection then give it a shot.

I dont meditate or practice any type of stuff like energy work and I project just about every night, so its definitely not necessary.

As I lay there relaxed attempting to have an OBE, sometimes it goes smoothly right to the vibrations and then I exit. Other Xs Ill get strong energy sensations all leading up to the exit vibration. One way or another, your ultimate goal is to astral project, so keep trying different things till you finally master it.

[Jarrod]

Energy feels pretty real to me when I'm doing energy work in a normal waking mind state.

Could you tell me briefly what your energy work entails? thx.

It's basically Robert Bruce's NEW exercise.  I started at my feet several months ago and only proceeded further up my body as I became able to feel sensation there.  Now I do a full body circuit most every day.  It takes 20-30 minutes.  The technique is learned by touch.  Touch a part of your body and really pay attention to the sensation, then try to recreate that same sensation from memory without touching.  It's called tactile imaging and teaches you how to move your awareness/focus around in your body.  Moving the point of focus around stimulates the energy body.  As my point of focus is moving through my body I feel a mild...I don't really know what else to call it except energy, at that point.  I have to go slow and hold my focus to feel it.  Sometimes I feel spontaneous energy rushes which are stronger than the feelings I get while doing energy work, and sometimes a constant sensation in a specific random place will last several days.

[CFTraveler]

K I just got done messaging someone from the IAC (international academy of consciousness) who explained (not fully) a method of shifting energy up and down your body to eventually project. Would this be simply referring to chi? I am trying to find out more about what this person has explained but can't find a lot. Does anyone here know what this person could be referring to exactly?

Your friend is describing energy work, and the description of this exercise looks a lot like energy body loosening, a step that is very beneficial when used in an exit attempt, if you are attempting to OBE with separation.

This is what the person said when I was asking about it and said I was skeptical:

"You will know that it is real because you now the difference between imagination and real life. Being skeptical and having a critical awareness is fundamental to recognize a real OBE experience, so you are in your way! If you want to check by yourself if what you feel is real you will have to test yourself. First by knowing you better. Start by checking and recognizing what you normally feel being normal, then try the tecnique and check what you feel and see if its different."

I don't know what people mean by 'real', but energy is what all matter is made of, so you either use it or don't- it's up to you.  I'm not sure why belief has to be attached to it.

It has been experimentally demonstrated that putting your attention on a body part causes the circulation to be stimulated (study quoted in the book Molecules of Emotion, by Dr. Candace Pert, the researcher that discovered endorphins).  This doesn't 'prove' anything, since causality is not determined.  But experienced projectors use energy work, and it is beneficial- martial arts use energy work, Tai Chi and Chi Kung is energy work, and pranayama is energy work.  You will notice that the folks that invented energy work are the ones that wrote the most about meditation and the astral.
Coincidence?
NEW, as someone else described, is the conceptual child of Robert Bruce, who managed to come up with a system using western concepts and exercises for moving energy, without the sometimes religious or 'mysterious' themes that accompany the old methods.

ps.  Chi is just a name; energy is simply the capacity to do work.
So, yes, you don't have to do energy work to project, because the most important component of projection is the ability to control your conscious awareness at the moment your body is going to sleep, but, if you learn to project, and find that you run out of gas quickly, or want to learn more techniques to get out, you will find that energy work is beneficial, especially for having control of your energy body (navigation-wise) because one of the side effects of energy work is the ability to feel your energy body.  So your friend is right in that you will know it works when it works.

[Selea]

I think it's hopus pocus! Forget the energy bollocks. You don't need that. If you feel any energy waves during sleep paralysis (which is more likely to be the perception of the firing of neurons rather than this chi business) , it is up to you to play around with them with your mind. It isn't necessary though.

And that's why people as Ragusa take 45 minutes of standing still and have to be prepared before having an experience and have to use sleep because elsewhere they cannot do it, and that's also because many of their "experiences" serves nothing at all in a practical sense. For this "hocus pocus" (that it's not NEW or any other new age nonsense, that serves little because it's not specific, and it's not either meant to include only "energy" but in a general concept), it's actually the most important aspect of a projection if you want to do it voluntarily, speed up the process and not being a "leaf in the wind" while you project.

You just use the "body" to automatically do this "hocus pocus" in sleep and then call it "hocus-pocus". Yet, people that use this "hocus-pocus" well, can do the same thing you take 1 hour to do while requiring all the time to being primed for it, in just 5 minutes without further preparation whenever they want and they can control their experiences everytime instead of being controlled by them.

And yet you think you are the "advancement" because you don't believe in "hocus-pocus". Ah... the irony!

As for not being necessary, you are right. At beginning it can also be counterproductive. But, as in every other form of learning, what may seem to hinder at first is what makes you really advance later.

[personalreality]

I'm not gonna get hardcore into this, but I have a way to look at it that might not be so hard to believe.

Instead of moving energy, think of it as moving your attention.

Moving energy is really about being able to direct your conscious awareness at will.

All of the energy work techniques rely on you being able to focus your awareness in a specific way (like "moving energy up and down your body" - you're really moving your attention up and down your body).

You could look at it as moving energy, but you are actually moving the focus of your attention.

You could take the next leap of imagination and say that attention/thoughts are things, and the only way we really have to describe these things is by calling them "energy".  Energy is a vague and ambiguous word that tends to mean any kind of tangible/intangible force that we really can't define through normal scientific nomenclature.  Even though attention is also kind of vague, it's still easier for us to conceptualize and apply.  So for all intents and purposes, when you see the word energy, just replace it with the word attention or awareness.

[Xanth]

I'm not gonna get hardcore into this, but I have a way to look at it that might not be so hard to believe.

Instead of moving energy, think of it as moving your attention.

Moving energy is really about being able to direct your conscious awareness at will.

All of the energy work techniques rely on you being able to focus your awareness in a specific way (like "moving energy up and down your body" - you're really moving your attention up and down your body).

You could look at it as moving energy, but you are actually moving the focus of your attention.

You could take the next leap of imagination and say that attention/thoughts are things, and the only way we really have to describe these things is by calling them "energy".  Energy is a vague and ambiguous word that tends to mean any kind of tangible/intangible force that we really can't define through normal scientific nomenclature.  Even though attention is also kind of vague, it's still easier for us to conceptualize and apply.  So for all intents and purposes, when you see the word energy, just replace it with the word attention or awareness.

I really couldn't agree more.

I believe they're simply different metaphors that people use that describe the same thing.

Energy, itself, is simply a metaphor people use to describe something that enacts change.  Because, the reality is for us humans that if change happens... then something caused it.  If you healed someone, well obviously someone did something... that something is that you sent "energy".

[Summerlander]

Oh my...looks like I trod on someone's toes there.

Selea, you can believe whatever you want. I'm just expressing what I think here. As for Raduga, you are wrong about him. You obviously haven't read any of his books otherwise you'd know that he's got more techniques up his sleeve other than using the pre-nap/sleep method. I suggest you read School of Out-of-Body Travel to learn more about his direct techniques.

As for energy work. You are quite right - you said it! You don't need it. And may I add, I don't use it and I am not a "leaf in the wind". All you really need is intent and belief that you can perform your manoeuvres. It's not down to "energy", it's down to confidence...

[Selea]

Selea, you can believe whatever you want. I'm just expressing what I think here. As for Raduga, you are wrong about him. You obviously haven't read any of his books otherwise you'd know that he's got more techniques up his sleeve other than using the pre-nap/sleep method. I suggest you read School of Out-of-Body Travel to learn more about his direct techniques.

I've read his book, and well, and I know exactly of what I talk about thank you. ALL his techniques have sleep as the onset. Please quote me a technique of that book that doesn't use sleep and that is done voluntarily, when one wants. I'm curious. If you refer to the "direct" techniques then you should read them a little better, because the only change from them and "indirect" is the moment they are used, not the way they are used.

And what's worse is that in all the book he insists on him knowing better, and that what he clearly doesn't either understand then it must not exists. A shame that he cannot either devise a method to do what he profess being the "best" way in a VOLUNTARY matter, without using sleep, and this thing has been done (and I'm speaking only about literature here) from more than a century. But naturally, he knows more... how not. The simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

Sadly this seems to be the trend lately. All this pseudo-scientific people claiming they know more, and yet when you go in practice I see only people that think they are so smart because they just crossed the river swimming, taking 3 hours, when actually people are already camping on the other side from two hours and 45 minutes because they used a boat that the people swimming insists is only "mumbo-jumbo".

As for energy work. You are quite right - you said it! You don't need it. And may I add, I don't use it and I am not a "leaf in the wind".

You are. However to understand it first you must understand your status as a leaf. You say you are not. I guess you can decide where you will end when you project, isn't it? I guess you can direct your travel BEFORE you start, right? I guess you can direct yourself there as you do in normal life, with all your conscience and not only "impulse" directing you, isn't it?

[Summerlander]

Actually, Raduga does not say in any way that if he doesn't understand it then it must not exist. Raduga is very pragmatic. And there is nothing pseudo about the science he references. Where is the pseudo in anything he has written? show me!

Even about the afterlife, he does not disclaim it, he simply states there is no real evidence for it. He also states in his book that you can project during the day but that you should start using the pre-sleep method. This is, undoubtedly, good advice. I think you need to revise it and refrain from your oxymoronic statements.

He does not claim to know better either, he is simply letting people know that he has experience which is true. The people who came up with the body of Light (talk about pseudo ) are the ones who are claiming to know things which, to be frank, have not been proven to exist. I understand that you may be biased by those belief systems, but, if you take a step back, you will see the bigger picture. These energy systems and "body of light" are just concepts that someone, with very little scientific knowledge at that time, came up with to explain away certain sensations which can still be illusions concocted by the brain until proved otherwise.

The simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

And this is where you and Raduga differ. While Raduga clearly states in SOBT that individuals differ and different methods may be more suitable to some but not others...you claim that your method of preference is the best.

And what's with the VOLUNTARY? If you have a nap and you wake up, you are priming yourself biologically for the experience. The sleep inertia symptoms indicate that the brain is hungry for REM and it is likely to enter it at the first opportunity it gets quicker than usual (like in narcolepsy). Note: you have primed yourself. You are facilitating Phase entry when you go down to induce. The body sleeps (becomes naturally atonic) and your mind remains aware and applies a method of separation. It's a voluntary OOBE still, doofus!!

You are. However to understand it first you must understand your status as a leaf. You say you are not. I guess you can decide where you will end when you project, isn't it? I guess you can direct your travel BEFORE you start, right? I guess you can direct yourself there as you do in normal life, with all your conscience and not only "impulse" directing you, isn't it?

When I've achieved a certain degree of focus in the Phase, I can control it and direct it. But this is not always the case and anyone who claims to do this every time they project is telling porkies in my opinion. By the way, don't be so deluded about "normal" life as you say. Did you know that activity in the motor regions of the brain flares up before you even become aware that you are going to move a limb?

[Rudolph]

The simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

I have read of using the imagination to create a 'double' and transferring the attention to that as a means of astral projecting. Is this what you are talking about?

I am also interested in a few examples of what 'destinations' you are referring to. I have targeted places on Earth, places in the astral, causal, points in time, etc.  It seems very few people actually do this or at least if they do, very few speak of their results. From what I read on most of these forums very few projectors are accomplishing much of anything in their travels.

edit; and when you say "VOLUNTARY" ... I think you meant "at will"...? This is of course the Holy Grail for APers, imo. If you have a method of teaching this effectively, I am all ears.

[Xanth]

If you refer to the "direct" techniques then you should read them a little better, because the only change from them and "indirect" is the moment they are used, not the way they are used.

Actually, that's correct, Selea... well, in my opinion at least.

One is done from having primed your consciousness with pre-sleep (indirect) and the other is done from any point during your day (direct) NOT after pre-sleep.  You can essentially use *ANY* method at any point during your day (after sleep or otherwise).

I mean, he says some stuff that I firmly disagree with... but, he also says a lot of good stuff which I do firmly agree with.  All the particulars are just his opinion.  Meh... no biggie.  Take what resonates with you and leave the rest... find the commonalities between his metaphors and yours.

The simple method of the Body of Light is a thousand times better than all that book at once, and it has been written more than two centuries ago.

How is this claim by you any different than the claims you're lambasting Raduga with?
Is this not you "insisting" that this "Body of Light" technique is "better" than anything he teaches?  And I'm rather puzzled by what the length of time that it's been available means... does that make it "two centuries better"?   Your claims puzzle me Selea.

Suffice to say, I used to be quite against Raduga and his ebook... but it's actually a pretty good read, and the fact that it's actually helped *A LOT* of people is great in my opinion.  For the most part, he seems to have a solid grasp of what he's talking about.

I don't suppose you'd be open to sharing this "simple" Body of Light method that you speak so highly of?  I think the members of the Astral Pulse would greatly appreciate that. 

[Summerlander]

I have read of using the imagination to create a 'double' and transferring the attention to that as a means of astral projecting. Is this what you are talking about?

I am also interested in a few examples of what 'destinations' you are referring to. I have targeted places on Earth, places in the astral, causal, points in time, etc.  It seems very few people actually do this or at least if they do, very few speak of their results. From what I read on most of these forums very few projectors are accomplishing much of anything in their travels.

Oh, here we go...I'm trying to target the astral, mental, Buddhic, monadic, moronic...

Ok...

Actually, that's correct, Selea.  
One is done from having primed your consciousness with pre-sleep (indirect) and the other is done from any point during your day (direct) NOT after pre-sleep.  You can essentially use *ANY* method at any point during your day (after sleep or otherwise).

Yes you can...but in both you relax yourself. Without relaxation (physical and mental) neither is possible. Priming with a nap helps you to relax quicker. Some individuals are good at relaxing regardless. Both ways get you to the same place. so what's the beef about this here. what is the point in pointing it out? different ways - same result! In both you can play around with the waves and vibes which in mu opinion are nothing but feedback from the polarisation and depolarisation of neurons. They give the illusion of this "energy" which in the state of consciousness that you are in, you then manifest the belief that you are controlling their flow when in reality you are sinchronising your mind with the flow...sort of like when the motor regions of the brain become active before you even decide to move when you are awake. Then the Phase...and I don't need to mention that this place/state is full of illusions, do I?

By the way, Raduga also talks about doing it before sleep...not just at the onset as Selea claimed!

But, who cares. Selea, if you want to adopt another's perspective (from centuries ago) rather than developing your own - be my guest.

I don't suppose you'd be open to sharing this "simple" Body of Light method that you speak so highly of?  I think the members of the Astral Pulse would greatly appreciate that. 

Remember the thread about the butler method that I opened on AVers? That's the "Body of Light" method. It involves visualisation and meditation. You create a metaphysical double and animate it so that you can then attempt to acquire a perspective from your double's point of view. This is what Raduga would call a grave mistake for the newbies to start here.

You need to be good at visualising and be strong-willed in the belief that it will happen. It is like phasing made more complicated and employing an unnecessary "out-of-the-body" teleport.

It is commendable that newbies start with the pre-sleep method first before attempting other method which prove to be more challenging. In the end, the result is the same: the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._Butler

[Xanth]

Yes you can...but in both you relax yourself. Without relaxation (physical and mental) neither is possible.

I'm actually of the opinion that relaxation isn't of paramount concern.  It *DOES* help, especially if you're a beginner, but it's not required.

Remember the thread about the butler method that I opened on AVers? That's the "Body of Light" method. It involves visualisation and meditation. You create a metaphysical double and animate it so that you can then attempt to acquire a perspective from your double's point of view. This is what Raduga would call a grave mistake for the newbies to start here.

Interesting.  I'll have to go find that.
Hopefully Selea can let us know if that's the one she's referring to.  I'll have to give my opinion on it tomorrow as it's late now and I'm pooped.
But I imagine I'll be able to find the commonality between it and other methods rather quickly.

It is commendable that newbies start with the pre-sleep method first before attempting other method which prove to be more challenging. In the end, the result is the same: the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD).

I'd actually suggest all beginners start with it, unless they have a firm background in meditation.  I feel it's the easiest way to initially begin your non-physical experiences. 

[Selea]

edit; and when you say "VOLUNTARY" ... I think you meant "at will"...? This is of course the Holy Grail for APers, imo. If you have a method of teaching this effectively, I am all ears.

It takes training and it's not a *singular* practice. Certainly that there are methods. To begin with: learn Raja Yoga and learn the Middle Pillar excercise in steps, until you master it.

[Selea]

One is done from having primed your consciousness with pre-sleep (indirect) and the other is done from any point during your day (direct) NOT after pre-sleep.  You can essentially use *ANY* method at any point during your day (after sleep or otherwise).

True, but the methods described in that book works only if you use sleep. The difference in that book about "direct" and "indirect" is just one about the time lapse when sleep is used. In the indirect sleep is used inbetween the attempt, in the "direct" sleep is used during the attempt.

Also if you can think the "direct" method as being available all the time, they are not because they still require sleep for them to work; i.e. the physical body must be in a sleep state for them to work.

A real voluntary method doesn't *need* sleep as a "catapult" to reach projection.

I mean, he says some stuff that I firmly disagree with... but, he also says a lot of good stuff which I do firmly agree with.  All the particulars are just his opinion.  Meh... no biggie.  Take what resonates with you and leave the rest... find the commonalities between his metaphors and yours.

As I said many times I don't care about "agrees" or "disagrees". I care about what is correct and what isn't. In this case pretending you are using a "scientific" approach to the thing and then just caring about what you think is "legit" or it isn't, is not scientific at all.

Is this not you "insisting" that this "Body of Light" technique is "better" than anything he teaches?  And I'm rather puzzled by what the length of time that it's been available means... does that make it "two centuries better"?   Your claims puzzle me Selea.

It's "better" in the sense that it does something specific and it's either basic and advanced at the same time. The Body of Light has everything in itself because it is both a projection method as it is a controlling method. For this my remark on it being "better" than all that book togheter. There's no form of control in that book, there's no form of teaching you how to either begin understanding how you can setup your work on a way that you can learn to control the experience instead of being controlled by it, if you are interested on learning it. All that doesn't interest to the author is labeled as "mumbo-jumbo" or nonsense.

The sad reality is that people these days (also in these sort of forums) are usually more interested in having the experience instead of learning how to really control it. But, speaking in Jungian terms, what good it does to open the subconsious if then you become a slave of it?

Sleep methods are very easy to learn, but they don't give you control. You don't know where you will end before you start, and what you will really do out there since your consciousness is only partial. For example you can decide before to do this and that only to find out that you have done all another thing. This because there's always a "lapse", a black-out of your consciousness for a sleep method to work, this is inevitable, and that lapse make you lose a part of your consciousness in the process.

Suffice to say, I used to be quite against Raduga and his ebook... but it's actually a pretty good read, and the fact that it's actually helped *A LOT* of people is great in my opinion.  For the most part, he seems to have a solid grasp of what he's talking about.

What I don't like in that book is not what Ragusa "teaches". Those are things that have been teached in shamanic texts from years and years. What I don't like is the approach he has on the thing. He approaches it as if only what he cares about exists, and the rest is just inexistent, or "mumbo-jumbo".

Also I in these forums usually neither talk about more advanced things because I know they can be an hindrance at beginning and I also know that the majority are neither interested in them.

I don't suppose you'd be open to sharing this "simple" Body of Light method that you speak so highly of?  I think the members of the Astral Pulse would greatly appreciate that.  

It's quite simple. It is the technique of building a body to whom to transfer the consciouness on. The "body" is usually built (on the basic form you see listed normally) from a "tought form". Naturally this is the basic form of the method. Done in its full form it is much more complex and it is done by creating the body from the molding of the light arised from doing excercises as the Middle Pillar till you have mastered it fully. When you have done so you can literally "mold" the "energy" built to construct a "body" on whom to transfer your consciounsess.

The advantages are that: A) you can do it whenever you want when you have mastered it, B) you have full consciousness as in "normal" life, C) you have a controlled vehicle that you can use to do specific things and that it has many more advantages in the control when you are "outside", E) the "vehicle" acquires a sort of "life" of his own, and it can be used to do many more things than simply using it as a container for you consciousness.

[Selea]

Oh, here we go...I'm trying to target the astral, mental, Buddhic, monadic, moronic...

Ok...

As you want. You can joke with me but can you with yourself?

Yes you can...but in both you relax yourself. Without relaxation (physical and mental) neither is possible. Priming with a nap helps you to relax quicker. Some individuals are good at relaxing regardless.

A) Relaxing is not the same as putting your physical to sleep. A thing that all the methods in those books need.
B) If you say that relaxing is needed then it must be so. Just FYI I know at last 6 people that can project while walking.

Both ways get you to the same place. so what's the beef about this here.

Again, if you say so then it must be as you say.

You see, what makes me sad it is not the fact that you think this way, but that you are so sure about it without giving anything else an option, acting as you already knew it as if you were a master without either having tried or having cared to. Have you ever tried yourself doing what you consider "hocus-pocus" really, with an open mind and not just for a day? If you haven't how can you be so sure it's just "hocus-pocus"?

what is the point in pointing it out? different ways - same result!

And then you say you are not a "leaf in the wind". You have always the same result because you cannot direct your experience.

In both you can play around with the waves and vibes which in mu opinion are nothing but feedback from the polarisation and depolarisation of neurons.

What they "really" are or what they aren't doesn't concerns me in the last. Doing certain things certain results happens. This is the only thing that matters.

The only thing that matters is that I don't care if those things are neurons discharges or not, but if that you use them (among many others "hocus-pocus" things) you can control your experience, while if you don't you cannot, as it is testified by your messages much too well. The rest is just silly talk.

Then the Phase...and I don't need to mention that this place/state is full of illusions, do I?

Also "real" life is, and so? Naturally the more you are out of control the more the illusions are strong, as, again, in "real" life.

By the way, Raduga also talks about doing it before sleep...not just at the onset as Selea claimed!

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. For the methods to work your body must enter the sleep state, or they will never work. In fact why do you suppose they are to be done before *sleep*?

But, who cares. Selea, if you want to adopt another's perspective (from centuries ago) rather than developing your own - be my guest.

Apart that you clearly don't understand the difference of having an "own" perspective and just selecting then one you prefer from those already existent, a shame that the "own" (are you kidding me or are you serious?) perspective of Ragusa is a thousand times worser than the one of centuries ago. It is much less open minded, it is much less grounded on practical results, it is much less interested in personal research instead of "teaching" others.  

So, if just to not abide to a perspective of centuries ago I have to abide to a prospective that's clearly worser in practice in many ways, I prefer to stay in the past, thanks.

Remember the thread about the butler method that I opened on AVers? That's the "Body of Light" method. It involves visualisation and meditation. You create a metaphysical double and animate it so that you can then attempt to acquire a perspective from your double's point of view. This is what Raduga would call a grave mistake for the newbies to start here.

I never said it is a method to start (also if it can be if you have patience instead of wanting immediate results). I said it is much better than all the book of Ragusa. The fact is that you are missing why it's that so.

There's often more about things (especially of a certain nature) than it seems. Have you ever wondered why for example it is usually remarked that the *most important* part of that excercise is not the transfer of consciousness but the actual building of the "body"? It if was simple an excercise of "phasing" it would have been much simpler to just make the student visualize the room from a first perspective from beginning, isn't it? What would be the purpose of you wasting time on buiding a figure?

But I guess since you suppose you know better that's so because they didn't really get what they were teaching about, mistaking a thing for another, and they just wasted time in "hocus-pocus" instead of really caring about "meaningful" things.

You need to be good at visualising and be strong-willed in the belief that it will happen. It is like phasing made more complicated and employing an unnecessary "out-of-the-body" teleport.

A) No, you don't need to be good at visualizing (it can help at beginning but it's not required).
B) No, you don't need to believe that it will happen. You just need to don't have doubts that it will not happen (but this can be said about any method)
C) No, it's not a phasing method.

In short, you don't know how it works and you think you are an expert about it, good to know.

It is commendable that newbies start with the pre-sleep method first before attempting other method which prove to be more challenging. In the end, the result is the same: the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD).

The only thing commendable is not insisting that what you don't know and you don't care to know it doesn't exists or it is as you think it is.

That's the only thing commendable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._E._Butler

So you now want to tell me who Butler was? And just so you know that "method" was not created by Butler but he surely was the first to explain the "full" method (also if in a basic form only understandable by people already knowing it) in one of his books. He was a member of SOL, that was a branch born from Golden Dawn members.

[Xanth]

Thank you for clarifying your opinions on this subject Selea.  It's much appreciated. 

[Rudolph]

It takes training and it's not a *singular* practice. Certainly that there are methods. To begin with: learn Raja Yoga and learn the Middle Pillar excercise in steps, until you master it.

My question was about whether you have an effective method for teaching this ability to project at will. Your reply did not answer that question.

If I ask, "Do you know the way to San Jose?" a good answer would be either yes or no. To reply, "point that way and start walking" is not helpful at that stage of the game. First things first. What if it takes two weeks to get there on foot and I only have 2 days?

But.. since you mention it... just curious, which "Middle Pillar" method are you referring to? And if I start learning Raja Yoga how long will it take and how will I know when I have "learned" it?

[Summerlander]

Ok, Selea...LOL! I'm sorry but I can't take you seriously when you even get his name wrong. It is Raduga and not Ragusa.

Those are things that have been teached in shamanic texts from years and years. What I don't like is the approach he has on the thing. He approaches it as if only what he cares about exists, and the rest is just inexistent, or "mumbo-jumbo".

"Taught"...also, it's called being "pragmatic". He is not claiming that things don't exist...he is merely focusing on what is a given and what's relevant. Get a dictionary.

You have clearly never tried the pre-nap method and probably haven't ever projected at all because if you had, you'd know that with the pre-nap/sleep (or wake back to bed) method, you don't necessarily experience lapses in consciousness. In fact, more often than not, the mind is alert throughout and what is experienced is a strange shift in consciousness before separation. Where are you getting all this erroneous info from? You seriously need to try the nap method! Try it! The energy work is a waste of time. There are so many people practising it and most still don't know what they are doing. In my opinion, the scam is as clear as daylight. I asked you to point out the pseudo-science from Raduga and so far you haven't.

You need to do some serious research on sleep cycles and it is possible to do it before sleep (you will also find this in the book - do read it because I don't think you have - and if you have...well, you misunderstood its content. As the adenosine levels rise in the evening, you start to feel sleep and with practice, you may be able to maintain awareness as your body reaches REM atonia.

The truth is that, once you enter the Phase and you believe that the playing with the "energy" has helped you, than that is exactly what you manifest. It isn't the energy or the vibes. It is your BELIEF and EXPECTATION that delivers results. You come here pointing fingers and saying that many have no control in their experiences but so far you have shown me that you know very little (reminder: especially about what happens in the pre-sleep method). By the way, the people who enter the Phase while walking...you just believe them?

Oh dear...

A real voluntary method doesn't *need* sleep as a "catapult" to reach projection.

Here we go with the voluntary again...do yourself a favour and get a dictionary!

As I said many times I don't care about "agrees" or "disagrees". I care about what is correct and what isn't. In this case pretending you are using a "scientific" approach to the thing and then just caring about what you think is "legit" or it isn't, is not scientific at all.

LOL! You make me laugh. If you think he's so bad why did you bother to read the whole book? You did read it all, didn't you?

There's no form of control in that book, there's no form of teaching you how to either begin understanding how you can setup your work on a way that you can learn to control the experience instead of being controlled by it, if you are interested on learning it. All that doesn't interest to the author is labeled as "mumbo-jumbo" or nonsense.

That's why many people are projecting because of him and they claim to have developed a greater control than before - after following Raduga's advice.

Sleep methods are very easy to learn, but they don't give you control. You don't know where you will end before you start, and what you will really do out there since your consciousness is only partial.

Actually, this is incorrect. I can testify that you come out fully conscious when you apply this method. Partially conscious may occur but most of the time, you are fully conscious and focused on that reality. Also, I've used this method to visit people and I've got some good results. Talk about having no control, eh? LOL! Just ask CaitHT and stoneZoMbIe in Astral Viewers. My OOBEs appeared to have provided validations or they seemed to have yielded some interesting results. And before you stoop so low as to think that she is a good friend of mine in cahoots with me...think again. She doesn't particularly like me and she live across the Atlantic from me but - she will wholeheartedly support the truth about OOBEs.

And then you say you are not a "leaf in the wind". You have always the same result because you cannot direct your experience.

Actually, what I meant by "same result" is that it is all the Phase, the same phenomenon. Not what you experience. what you experience is subjective and majorly dependent on your beliefs and where you mind is at. But I understand...you are looking for ways to discredit me and you feel that I've threatened your belief foundation. I understand...

Also "real" life is, and so? Naturally the more you are out of control the more the illusions are strong, as, again, in "real" life.

You don't know what you are talking about...LOL!

So, if just to not abide to a perspective of centuries ago I have to abide to a prospective that's clearly worser in practice in many ways, I prefer to stay in the past, thanks.

I prefer to stay in the present and look forward to the future.

C) No, it's not a phasing method.

I never said it was a phasing method...I said it is LIKE that. Read properly and stop making assumptions.

The only thing commendable is not insisting that what you don't know and you don't care to know it doesn't exists or it is as you think it is.

That's the only thing commendable.

So you now want to tell me who Butler was? And just so you know that "method" was not created by Butler but he surely was the first to explain the "full" method (also if in a basic form only understandable by people already knowing it) in one of his books. He was a member of SOL, that was a branch born from Golden Dawn members.

Where did you see me say that it was created by Butler? And this is why you need to do some revision of what you claim to have read. By the way, why don't you enlighten everyone with you amazing Body of Light method? LOL!

[Xanth]

To be fair, Selea is speaking from his own perspective.  He's allowed his opinions, just as you're allowed yours. 

It would be nice if we could just debate ideas and not people. 

[Summerlander]

Yes, he is allowed his own opinions but he has no right to slate that which is a given, especially when it comes to techniques. Selea also said:

A) you can do it whenever you want when you have mastered it, B) you have full consciousness as in "normal" life, C) you have a controlled vehicle that you can use to do specific things and that it has many more advantages in the control when you are "outside", E) the "vehicle" acquires a sort of "life" of his own, and it can be used to do many more things than simply using it as a container for you consciousness.

A) Baloney! No-one can do this. Whoever says they can is simply lying.
B) Sometimes even in "normal life" you are not fully conscious or even fully aware of what is going on around you. In fact, the unconscious (or subconscious - hate this word as it is misleading) captures a lot more.
C) I don't waste time building any thought body - when I separate, it may be already manifest or it manifests as I simply look to find it. If I don't have a body and I'm a floating point of consciousness, it doesn't even bother me - you don't really need one as it merely manifests because that is what you are used to during the waking state.
And finally D (not E, Selea ) Yeah, a thought form that you can control with your mind...a do this for fun in lucid dreams. It is only a vehicle if you label it a vehicle. You can view it in second person and make it say "hi"