LDs are not OBEs

[Pauli2]

Stookie_, that was interesting. I actually interpret that as another
indication that LDs are different from OBEs.

[Stookie_]

Well from there, I believe most dreams take place around the same area of consciousness that some OBE's can take place. We just have very little awareness at the time and remember it as a dream.

[Jilt]

The psychologist/researcher in question (and some of the other commenters) aren't taking into account wake-induced lucid dreams (WILDs) which are what most skilled lucid dreamers have. Be wary of people who haven't experienced these DIRECTLY since they often have no idea what they are talking about.

I can tell you from having 20 years of OOBEs and WILDs, usually every night, that they are the same except you don't have the 'see the room' phase with a WILD and may feel yourself drop rather than raise up. There is no difference in lucidity, longevity, flying ability, and experience of levels described by Monroe.

With time, the 'normal' experience of an OOBE will even change where you skip the Mode 1 "see the room" phase if you immediately at lift off fly away and find yourself in the 3D black world where all the good stuff begins (which is where I start with a WILD). This is automatic now so I don't get sucked back into my body and I avoid the unsavory characters I often run into in Mode 1.

Do yourself a favor and realize you can reach these states in many ways, the WILD being a little easier/faster for me personally but fun to throw in an OOBE for variety.

[Ssergiu]

I definitely agree with Xanth. Also, what I said, explains why people can have OOBEs which later turn into dreams or dreams that later turn into OOBEs. Of course, our awareness varies while awake, but also while asleep. I also find this difference in awareness the reason why people identified the astral like "inferior one, middle astral, superior astral" or other stuff like this, when all the difference is the level of awareness. When in OOBE you literally feel as awake as in wakefulness but with no body. When you have OOBEs in which you are not very aware then you are phasing into a dream. Also, the lucid dream should be in brackets too as you are lucid only when you know you are dreaming. It kind of depends on you.
In other words, when your level of awareness increases you get more to awakening or OOBE. When it decreases you get more to dreams. I'd also like to mention that in all lucid dreams I had I ended up in a short period of time in SP because of my increased level of awareness. I cannot explain the entire phenomena in another way.

In a way, if you have OOBEs that feel dream-like, improve the level of awareness by asking you questions or keep yourself "aware". This will improve your experiences.
However, I agree, call it whatever you want, we'll know what you're talking about.

[Summerlander]

A scientist (officially) does not mean being a good and proper scientist. I don't think she is one because she is biased and a bit ego-centric too, (you will note this when you see her in interviews). A combination that does not go along well with open-minded and UN-biased research. Moreover, it seems that due to her own faulty scientific research, she just felt "a bit sore" as a consequence by her own failure and the reaction was then to turn this obvious failure around by this kind of turn she did (out of defiance, in a way).

Since she claims and thinks she did not find enough evidence for the paranormal (which is not quite true, see below link) she kind of did that 180-degree turn and joined the holy skeptics religion, where she is highly praised (as one of "them" and a very rational and "sane" person, as opposed to looneys like us) and often quoted by them now. It seems she feels home now.  

I couldn't agree more! - BINGO!!!!! She is all about ego and appearances:

"The OBEr is really in a deeper illusion. She imagines that the world she
sees is the physical world as it would be seen with her eyes open, that is,
she is misled into mistaking a memory model for a sensory one. Research
which seeks for actual astral bodies or paranormal effects in the OBE is
just perpetuating this confusion."

She's confused.

It could all be just dreams. Dreams are a concept too. In the end, the phenomena are aspects of consciousness and these aspects, whatever they are, can be quite useful/productive. What matters most in my opinion is not the true nature of these experiences (this, for the time being is only good for fun speculation), it is how the Phase state (and forgive me if I'm using this broad term again) can be applied.

[Pauli2]

Her research is still interesting.

[personalreality]

but still read with skepticism

[Summerlander]

Yep! Open-minded scepticism as Thomas Campbell says!

[Pauli2]

In this radio interview Robert Monroe is asked if LDs can be used as springboards
to do OBEs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_FhfHoqiPw&feature=related

Interestingly enough Monroe said that LDs are equivalent to F 15.
Listen to the interview around 1:00 - 1:35.


The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.

[Ssergiu]

LDs != OOBEs! They are different. They feel different, but they are the same one phenomena. In non of them are you with an astral body or whatever. Let me put it like this: apple pie and orange pie (if that exists). They both are pies, the same thing, but the difference is the flavor. In OOBEs the flavor is the level of awareness. I am not saying that OOBEs are the same as being stuck in a dream, knowing it is a dream. You totally feel like you feel now, but there's no physical body. If they are not the same phenomena, what are they then?

EDIT: I think that very vivid dreams are just an illusion of an OOBE. You just need to realize you are in a dream and try to get rid of it and get out! OOBE = realization of the vivid dream and getting out/rid of it. LD = realization of the vivid dream, but staying in it.

[dotster]

I personally don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here. Everyone is spending so much time debating and worrying about other people's postulations that they barley have time to make any of their own! Why does it even matter? In the end, OBE's, LD's, Phasing, they're all just words to describe tools to help us recognize that this life around us isn't all that there is. If you observe them to be different then they will be for you. As astute Phasers, OBE's, Projectors, whatever you call yourselves, you surely must realize how strong the power of thought is in these altered states of consciousness. Maybe the reason no one can agree is because their belief system has a direct effect on their thoughts in these states. So in my opinion no one will win these debates because it is different for everyone. Why don't we all just learn and grow from them? Everyone is always so concerned about putting a word to a concept so that we can discuss and share it with others, but we have experienced these altered states of awareness and what I believe is most important is the fact that we continue to strive to learn more from them instead of debating about the names that we give them.

[Pauli2]

Why does it even matter? In the end, OBE's, LD's, Phasing...

There are several reasons which you might have seen if you have read the thread. Let's recap some:

1. People, who get NDE (which are VERY similar to OBEs), would like to know that an NDE is not just a dream, an LD.
2. You want to avoid getting stuck in certain Focus Levels, because LDs are low power astral experiences (see Buhlman's site).
3. You want to improve your re-call from your experiences by getting OBEs and not low powered experiences.
4. You don't want to be tricked when someone calls an apple, a pear.
5. You name it...

[Xanth]

Dotster, you're 100% correct. 
It doesn't matter.

[Astral316]

4. You don't want to be tricked when someone calls an apple, a pear.

You say this like one's direct experience is somehow invalidated be a potentially erroneous second hand label. If you were visited be aliens and someone came along and told you that was a pretty mundane event, would you be disappointed or would you blow it off and still be in awe that you were visited by aliens? The experience speaks for itself, first and foremost. If you want a label for sake of communication, all you need is to describe your level of awareness (dreamy vs. waking) and whether you had knowledge of being outside the physical (lucid vs. non lucid.) All the added crap... is largely unnecessary. If anything we should be arguing the metaphysical functions that tie all these variations together, not on how they're different. Why? Because the differences are purely subjective and therefore a waste of time.

[Xanth]

You say this like one's direct experience is somehow invalidated be a potentially erroneous second hand label. If you were visited be aliens and someone came along and told you that was a pretty mundane event, would you be disappointed or would you blow it off and still be in awe that you were visited by aliens? The experience speaks for itself, first and foremost. If you want a label for sake of communication, all you need is to describe your level of awareness (dreamy vs. waking) and whether you had knowledge of being outside the physical (lucid vs. non lucid.) All the added crap... is largely unnecessary. If anything we should be arguing the metaphysical functions that tie all these variations together, not on how they're different. Why? Because the differences are purely subjective and therefore a waste of time.

Well said indeed, sir.  Well said. 

[Astral316]

And of course the post discussing the thread subject is glazed over for the more juicy controversial material of he said, she said.

Is this a matter of rallying up random scientists that don't believe there's any major metaphysical difference between LDs and OBEs? In that case I'd be interested to hear what Campbell has to say about this.

[Summerlander]

Campbell says it's the same excrement.

[Xanth]

In an attempt to salvage the thread... let's go in this direction.

How about we compare the two "types" (and I use that term BEYOND loosely) experiences?

What can you do in a Lucid Dream?  What does a Lucid Dream feel like (and here's the kicker part..) "to you"?
What can you do in an OBE/AP?  What does an OBE/AP feel like "to you"?

[Xanth]

What can you do in a Lucid Dream?  What does a Lucid Dream feel like (and here's the kicker part..) "to you"?

I have control over my environment... I can fly... I can manipulate just about anything with a simple thought... I can gain information through talking to other people around me.
A Lucid Dream feels just like I feel right this very second... the difference being I don't fully realize that I'm a physical person and I don't have complete access to my waking awareness, but I know I'm "asleep".

What can you do in an OBE/AP?  What does an OBE/AP feel like "to you"?

Same as above... except I do have access to all that is physically me.

My conclusion that I draw from it?  They're the same thing, the difference being the quality of consciousness of the experiencer. 
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it's a duck.

[Summerlander]

1 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually sleep).

2 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually project from).

Conclusion:

Read my signature!

Also, check this out:
http://48lucid-dream.blogspot.com/

"While dream control and dream awareness are correlated, neither requires the other—LaBerge has found dreams which exhibit one clearly without the capacity for the other; also, in some dreams where the dreamer is lucid and aware they could exercise control, they choose simply to observe.[17] In 1992, a study by Deirdre Barrett examined whether lucid dreams contained four "corollaries" of lucidity: knowing that dreamt people are indeed dreamt, that objects won't persist beyond waking, that physical laws need not apply, and having clear memory of the waking world, and found less than a quarter of lucidity accounts exhibited all four. A related and reciprocal category of dreams that are lucid in terms of some of these four corollaries, but miss the realization that "I'm dreaming" were also reported. Scores on these corollaries and correctly identifying the experience as a dream increased with lucidity experience."

You will find a lot more there, folks...

[Ssergiu]

1 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually sleep).

2 - Anything I want. It feels like I'm elsewhere other than lying in bed (where I usually project from).

Conclusion:

Read my signature!

Also, check this out:
http://48lucid-dream.blogspot.com/

That site is interesting. Actually exactly what I wanted to read up on! However, there are thousands of mistakes  A lot of misspelled words! "madatiation" "feith" "wors" "then"

[Summerlander]

LOL!

Yeah...it's a shame. But yeah, there is a good chance that all we're doing is just dreaming...a peculiar or distinct form of dreaming from the 'normal' dreaming. That is all the Phase could be! Wouldn't you agree, Ssergiu, my man?

"In a study of fourteen lucid dreamers performed in 1991, people who perform wake-initiated lucid dreams operation (WILD) reported experiences consistent with aspects of out-of-body experiences such as floating above their beds and the feeling of leaving their bodies. Due to the phenomenological overlap between lucid dreams, near-death experiences, and out-of-body experiences, researchers say they believe a protocol could be developed to induce a lucid dream similar to a near-death experience in the laboratory.

According to Buddhist teachers, the experience of lucidity helps us to understand the unreality of phenomena, which would otherwise be overwhelming during dream or the death experience."

More from that site. ^^^

[Ssergiu]

LOL!

Yeah...it's a shame. But yeah, there is a good chance that all we're doing is just dreaming...a peculiar or distinct form of dreaming from the 'normal' dreaming. That is all the Phase could be! Wouldn't you agree, Ssergiu, my man?

If we are dreaming, this dream is too stable, but then again, it could feel like this when we die. Waking up from a dream feels weird as we came back in a world that has its own set of rules and things don't add up. Probably, especially those who are not used to the Phase, we will feel the same about our life as it is not very similar to our previous "dream"'s rules.. although we can make the meta-physical be like this. Did this make any sense? lol

[Summerlander]

Yes, those who are not used to lucidity may find the death transition confusing...poor souls!

But, death is oblivion. You won't feel a thing. You...no more! There is nothing after death...hopefully!

More from that site:

"The wake-initiated lucid dream occurs when "the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state". There are many techniques aimed at entering a WILD. The key to these techniques is recognizing the hypnagogic stage, which is within the border of being awake and being asleep. If a person is successful in staying aware while this stage occurs, that person will eventually enter the dream state while being fully aware that it is a dream.

There are key times at which this state is best entered; while success at normal bedtime after having been awake all day is very difficult, it is relatively easy after sleeping for 3–7 hours or in the afternoon during a nap. Techniques for inducing WILDs abound. Dreamers may count, envision themselves climbing or descending stairs, chant to themselves, control their breathing, count their breaths to keep their thoughts from drifting, concentrate on relaxing their body from their toes to their head, or allow images to flow through their "mind's eye" and envision themselves jumping into the image to maintain concentration and keep their mind awake, while still being calm enough to let their bodies sleep.

During the actual transition into the dream state, dreamers are likely to experience sleep paralysis, including rapid vibrations, a sequence of loud sounds, and a feeling of twirling into another state of body awareness, or of "drifting off into another dimension", or like passing the interface between water into air, face front, body first, or the gradual sharpening and becoming "real" of images or scenes they are thinking of and trying to visualize gradually, which they can actually "see", instead of the indefinite sensations they feel when trying to imagine something while wide awake.

Brilliant!

[Ssergiu]

Yes, those who are not used to lucidity may find the death transition confusing...poor souls!

But, death is oblivion. You won't feel a thing. You...no more! There is nothing after death...hopefully!

"souls"....

Anyway, I think I want to have some fun before oblivion.  Let's stay on topic though, we've got fb for that.  I still had to tell you something...