Do animals have consciousness like we and spirit

[cainam_nazier]

Do animals have spirit?  Yes I believe they do..

Are they concisous...No I don't think so or at least not at the same level as human.  Please note that I will not say which I think is higher or  lower.  

For instance, dogs.  They can activly think, they show emotion, but they must do as they do.  They can not control thier base urges, and if/when they do it is only because thier owner says otherwise.

An animal is what it is, no right, no wrong. no good, no evil.  I believe a human is concisous only because of two things.  The ability to exert control over ones self, and the ability to choose.

[bomohwkl]

Certainly animals have spirit. For example, dogs can be very intelligent (therefore there is consciousness) and capable to sense his owner feelings. Why couldn't we do the reverse? I wonder.

[lyn92]

here's a strange incident happened some time ago. I had two cats and a dog that grew up together, i've had them since they were less than a month old, at present they are going on 9 years.

one night i hear this strange high pitched robot like voice outside my bedroom door. I closed the door because the cats were making alot of noise. so the voice says "the one that is the male of us needs to go outside" so i open the door and the oldest female cat is sitting at the door. I go look for the dog and sure enough he is looking at the backdoor, he did have to go outside.

i've heard this high pitched voice about 3 times. so this cat of mine does have a conscious.

Lyn

[James S]

Yes I do think that animals both have a spirit, and have a counsciousness. I have found evidence of this more so in parrots than dogs and cats, as they are able to communicate with us more directly by being able to use speech, though I do not believe that any such animals are more or less sentient than we are.

Just because an animal does not have the same facial expressions or communication skills that humans do, doesn't mean that they are not capable of thinking and feeling just as we do. The trick is learning how to interpret their feelings or actions, without referencing it against our own standards. Animals think, act, respond differently to us in given situations.

As exmples -
I have a pet cockatiel - a small member of the parrot family. When you own a pet and have a close relationship with it (cockatiels are very sociable birds) you get to know its behaviour. I know when my bird is upset, happy, angry, frightened, peeved, relaxed. I can read the expressions not so much from his face, but by his whole body language. You can get to a point where you know what he is feeling just by looking at him. If we come home late he'll turn his back to us and give us the whole "what time do you call this?" attitude. He has learned quite a few words and knows in what context to use them. He even knows how to laugh (a human type of laugh), and he will do it when he thinks something is funny, because he has learned from us.

Second example - African Grey Parrots are considered one of the most intelligent of all birds. They can be taught to speak quite easily, can have an extensive vocabulary, and as such are capable of telling us what they are thinking, NOT just mimicking sounds. Animal behaviour researchers have proven these birds to be capable of independent cognitive reasoning, as opposed to Pavlovian trained behavior and pattern recognition. This was a cosiderable breakthrough in this line of research because many animal behaviourists had to rethink their approaches to take into account the fact that animals such as these parrots are indeed fully sentient beings. Communication barriers and human ignorance have generally been the stumbling blocks here.

James.

[Goldenshadow]

Humans are animals...

[Nick]

From what I can gather they have both consciousness and spirit, but in a different capacity than we do.

[Boo Kity]

I certainly do think that animals have consciousness and spirit.

For us to think we are any better than any other living thing on the planet is arrogant.

We all have our purpose.

Most people have no idea how another human being is feeling at any time, so how woulda person be anble to know how an animal feels or thinks.

[Leftypilot79]

YES...animals have both. But when you ask....are you talking about like the family pet? or wild animals? I think they all have both...but domesticated animals...or animals that have realationships outside of their own species (humans, and other animals)...are a little more spiritually evolved than the cow grazing out in the pasture. (Not that those cute Californa Cows aren't special too.) James Van Praagh, and John Edwards have both said that animals are the greatest teachers of PUL. They don't judge us....they only can love us...which is really what its all about. And having that realationships with other animals raises their concious awareness of other things, other then themselves.

aaron

[Fat_Turkey]

Of course animals have a consciousness, in my opinion. According to nazier's beliefs though they don't.

It depends what you really believe a consciousness is I guess.

Humans I believe do have a different capacity of consciousness than animals, that in which we can choose and we can control ourselves. But I believe that those two things also make us the only species that can kill itself and hate itself, which I find sad.

Animals and humans have spirits. Spirits I think are exactly what Rob. Bruce defines as the energy body, except a spirit or soul is the energy body with a mind in it.

Well those are my two cents, and a lot of what I wanted to say has already been said by others here.

Later
-FT

[James S]

Somthing interesting that both Fat Turkey and Cainam Nazier commented on - that animals (well, other animals) don't really have the same control over their actions that we do, mainly because of instinct.

Should this really be equated with consciousness?

The way I see it, from paying attention to the actions of a number of different species, instinct doesn't control animal behaviour as much as opportunity does. Many animal species live from one meal to the next. When we look at this from the perspective of our comfortable western civilised lives, it would be easy to forget that many people, such as those from many African nations, look upon the chance of food as most animals do. Do these people really have control over their actions? How many here own a cat, and have watched it turn its nose up at food. Anybody who's seen their dog slink out of their bedroom looking guilty will know that animals not only have consciousness, but also a conscience.

Animals choose their actions if they are in a position to do so. If you ever see an eagle turn into the face of a storm, to literally play in thermals and turbulence that would rip a small plane to pieces, you know they are doing it for fun, not because they have to.

I guess animals are not able to raise their consciousness such as we can when we meditate or AP, but then, some animals seem to have a level of perception beyond ours, and probably don't need to.

James.

[veliki grizli]

quote:As exmples -
I have a pet cockatiel - a small member of the parrot family. When you own a pet and have a close relationship with it (cockatiels are very sociable birds) you get to know its behaviour. I know when my bird is upset, happy, angry, frightened, peeved, relaxed. I can read the expressions not so much from his face, but by his whole body language. You can get to a point where you know what he is feeling just by looking at him. If we come home late he'll turn his back to us and give us the whole "what time do you call this?" attitude. He has learned quite a few words and knows in what context to use them. He even knows how to laugh (a human type of laugh), and he will do it when he thinks something is funny, because he has learned from us.

Yes, but feelings and emotions have nothing with consciousness.
Consciousness is something different. Being conscious means to be aware of being or existance.
I thing that animals react only instinctively and have no consciousness. But I can not prove that and when I think more about that I am nor sure whether thay have consciousness or not.

Did anyone of you on etheric or astral plane saw dogs or cats or other animals.
If you have experience about that please wright something down.

[jilola]

The actual physical manifestation is just a vehicle for the soul.
The soul (or the spirit) itself is a facet of the universal existence (call it god or whatever) but in itself an individual entity.
In the case of this souls incarnating in various circumstances its scope of awareness and capabilities of responding are bounded by the a) physical circumstances (worm vs. human) and b) its intended currciulum during a given incarnation (hmm example would be something to do with perspective of the soul, someone help me out?).

Thus an animal and a human are still the same and of the same as far as the spirit or the soul is concerned. Their respective abilities and levels of awareness differ, what feeling and awareness they have are te same as humans only limited to the circumstances of thei incarnate state.

Make sense?

2cents & L&L
jouni

[cainam_nazier]

I would have to say that in the end it would boil down to wether or not an animal can ask itself one question.  Why am I here?

My personal belief is that consiousness is the ability to reflect on ones self.  So unless we can actually talk to an animal and ask what it thinks of itself and its place in the world we can only specualte.

[Squeek]

Well, funny you should ask.  In my youth group for my church, somebody asked if animals had souls and went to heaven.  The moderator gave just a blatant...

"No."  Then we laughed for like 10 minutes.  I don't know why.

The kid came back next week with information.  Pythagos, the guy who made the theory on the triangles, also thought this.  He also said that pea-pods go to heaven  

So the answer, to me, is no.  They do not have a spirit, as they cannot ascend to heaven.

~Squeek

[Goldenshadow]

Do we really have control over what we do? Or are we more like the flow of water and lightning taking the path of least resistance. To say that "animals" do not have consciousness is not only denying the connection that all beings share, but also our own instincts. What about a planet like Earth or a wall for that matter? If there is a consistency...there is consciousness. Wich also means "animals" have an unconscious as well.

[watsonla]

A book well worth reading about spirit which also give a detailed explaination of animal spirit is the Rosicrucian Cosmo Conseption by max heindel. Its deep but fills in a lot of gaps in Robert Bruses books but they compliment each other and Roberts books also fills in some of Max Heindels book

[watsonla]

A book well worth reading about spirit which also give a detailed explaination of animal spirit is the Rosicrucian Cosmo Conseption by max heindel. Its deep but fills in a lot of gaps in Robert Bruses books but they compliment each other and Roberts books also fills in some of Max Heindels book.

[Leftypilot79]

Im gonna echo what Goldenshadow said...AGIAN since its VERY IMPORTANT.

Humans are animals.....plain and simple. We happen to be a primate called the Homo-sapien. To those people who say that animals are aware, and have concious, or consciene....obviously don't have any pets. Animals are great teachers to us..they accept us uncondionally not matter what.

Now..if you are talking about the millions of cows out to pasture, waiting to be slaughtered or milked. Im sure they have their reason here...Im just not aware of it.

From watching John Edwards, and James Van Praag, and other mediums...they seem to bring family pets thru QUITE alot. Dogs, birds, cats, tigers (Seigfield and Roys were on James Van Praagh last week). So...to those of you who say that animals are concious....when you say that....that pretty much means you don't believe in Astral Projection either....that doubt it still there. But Astral Projection, mediumship, psychic things, all tie in toghter. Its really quite fascinating. Im enjoying the journey of learning about all this.

love
aaron

[Athios]

I thought of this when I read jilola's reply.
Have you ever heard of someone (or yourself) say "Wouldn't it be great if I were a dog?" You know, because we think a dog's life is easy and fun, no stress.

What if that were the case, that (at least some) dogs are humans who chose to reincarnate as a dog?  []

Oh yeah, a related thing.
In one of the Chinese belief systems (I don't know it's name), humans continuously reincarnate until they achieve enlightment, and bad/evil people are forced to reincarnate as animals.

[veliki grizli]

quote:What if that were the case, that (at least some) dogs are humans who chose to reincarnate as a dog?

Oh yeah, a related thing.
In one of the Chinese belief systems (I don't know it's name), humans continuously reincarnate until they achieve enlightment, and bad/evil people are forced to reincarnate as animals

I read a little Tibetian book of death (I dont know correct title).
There stand that humans always reincarnate in humans, I neve read there that humans reincarnate in animals.

Some kind of other Buddhismic sects believe that humans reincarnate in animals due to zheit worships.

I know I speak bad English but I think you should understand.

[terrance]

If you ask a human - "are you aware?" They would say - "Yes, I'm self aware and sentient, thanks."
If you ask your dog, "here boy! are you aware?"  They would probably say "woof!"

We have no means, other than communication, for determining consciousness in other entities.

If you ask a robot that perfectly mimics human behaviour - "are you aware?" it would say "Yes I'm self aware and sentient, thanks."

So even direct communication is no good.

If you're concerned about killing other conscious/sentient creatures you might say that the only logical step is to take measures not to do so - i.e. become a vegan.  This step is logical - if you can't possibly know if something is conscious then one must assume that they could be so.

regards
t

p.s I do eat meat!

[jilola]

But that lines of reasoning leads one to ask the same about carrots.

Imho and impb, all are part of the same universal totaltiy or oneness, whatever, and thus to some extent sentient. Even non-organics.

L&L
jouni

[terrance]

I thought about vegetables as I wrote that
Perhaps that's why I still eat cow.

The point I was attempting to make is that's it's impossible to say for certain one way or the other.  So anything asserted is really speculation.  It's down to the individual to decide - but this decision can have no credible grounds.

Anyway, I don't eat carrots... they taste horrible

t

[jilola]

Yep. It is usually impossible to know.
But such a determination can have credible grounds subjectively. One may see things and see thigns in a way that others cant, either see or understand/accept. This doesn't detract from the fact the the observation has the necessary value and weigth to support a choice one way or another nor does it require anyone else seeing things the same way.
I think someone else besides me has said that we are quests in each others universes. IMHO, this means that while we may share certain aspects of our existence, such as it's cause and physical appearance, the spiritual aspects are still very much subjective and personal while we are here.

That's why one should treat everything and anything with respect. Whether it's something you eat, play with, kick or think about. But that shouldn't be an obstacle for doing what seems to you the right thing.

2cents & L&L

[PeacefulWarrior]

I, for one, agree with those who said "Yes."  In fact, I believe that even a rock has a spirit, but in a different sense.  I think all matter has a particular kind of "intelligence" but of course there are varying degrees of this intelligence.  
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The "pure principles of element" and of intelligence coexist eternally with God: "They may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed" (TPJS, p. 351). God created the universe out of chaos, "which is Element and in which dwells all the glory" (WJS, p. 351). "The elements are the tabernacle of God" (D&C 93:35). God is related to space and time, and did not create them from nothing. Change occurs through intelligence. The universe is governed by law. There were two creations: All things were made "spiritually" before they were made "naturally" (Moses 3:5). Through his Son, God is the Creator of multiple worlds. God is the Father of the human spirits that inhabit his creations. His creations have no end.