let's argue

[Anonymous]

I admit you have a point, Goingslow, but out of how many people that exist, what percentage of those people are those who kill and rape and steal for no reason whatsoever? I think the vigilantism was a good idea, but the police tend to take it too far. I get harassed for going for walks at night, despite the fact that I have no criminal record. I am earning a degree in music at a college which is known for criminal justice and teaching. The goons that are majoring in criminal justice here frightens me. Many of them want to become police officers. My old roommate was probably THE worst human being I have ever met. He had no respect for anyone, not even himself. Yet he wanted to be a state trooper. Do you want someone like that enforcing the law? I don't. But I see it happening. I think that what our society has lost is its honor.

You're right about shooting the assailant, because that's probably what I'd do. I'd arm myself to the teeth. But if you think about that person's family, why would they come after me if I could prove to them, beyond reasonable doubt, that it was in self-defense? Most people, like I said, aren't really that irrational. Stupid, yes. Irrational, not quite. There are many people in jail for good reasons. I'll give you that. I would prefer that a rapist or serial killer or whoever would not be out on the street to do it again. What about mob rule? Obviously the rest of the world wouldn't want that person out on the street either. That's why if I didn't do anything about it, then someone else would. There are consequences in this life, with or without man's laws.

Back in the days of the Vikings, the women and children were moved to a large shelter/fortress in order to keep them safe during invasions from outside armies. If the armies succeeded and defeated the viking warriors, the women and children were killed in order to save them from being raped/taken away and enslaved. Now, I'm not saying we should resort to this, but this is the extreme opposite of what we have today. Our government, though it keeps us safe in many ways, is still taking away our rights. Unfortunately it seems that there are a lot of corrupt individuals who have obtained positions of power in congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court. Do you realize that just by disagreeing with the government, they can put you in jail without just cause, for as long as they want? In order for freedom to exist, so must safety, but safety cannot exist without freedom, either.

Like I said before, our society has lost its honor. I think that the human mind in general is unstable. It seems that no matter what system we humans come up with, it is bound to fail, usually due to some sort of irrational thinking, some individual who comes to power, or both. I think our disposable culture is irrational. People take things that are sacred and turn it into a product so they can market and sell it so that they can make lots of money. I think that people who worship money are irrational. We ask the government to fix these problems, but often our pleas fall on deaf ears.

I've written enough for now. I'm too tired to continue.

[cainam_nazier]

Please note this post is intended to start the affore mentioned aurgument.  It is intened to be rude, mean, and state the fact as I feel they should be.  Consider yourselves lucky I don't run the world.....yet.

This is aimed at the toad lickers who would recieve summery executions under my rule for not believing in what I say.

Now, not only should assisted suicide be legal it should be a state run affair.  The following rules will be instituted when I assume the thrown.
1.  All aplications for the new "Guided Termination Proceedure" will be filed in triplicate.  One copy for the state archives, One for the next of kin if applicable, and one for the public records.
2.  All personal affairs must be put in order before Guided Termination can begin.  These things include but are not limited to: A. the settling of all debts.  B- The completion of a legal will.  C- The payment of the "GTP Tax" which is 10% of total personal assets.  D- proof of terminal illness by a court appointed doctor.
3.  Failure to complete the above to the satisfaction of the court could result in summery execution in which case all personal assets would become property of the state.

Law and the death penalty.

All current "Life in Prison" sentances will be transfered to a "Death Sentance".  All those under sentance of death will have 3 attempts to file for a re-trial.  This must be done within 5 years of the first sentancing.  Before final sentance is passed those wishing to do so will be given the opportunaty to serve in the "Brute Force Division" of Royal Army of Dave.  The BFD will be responsible for most of the high risk military operations.  Those completing 5 years of successful service will be given the option to return to society.

All current laws will be dropped.  A basic live and let live moral code will be adopted.  Every one will be free to do as they will as long as it does not infringe on others.

Oh yeah, everyone except me will be getting a chip put in thier brain case so I know where they are all the time.  If you don't like it you will recieve a summery execution.

[fredhedd]

a strong bond - if you want to argue/knitpick over the definition of argument and debate, then maybe one of those rooms you suggested is the place for you.  would you have commented if this topic was called 'let's debate' ?  you can see we are all being civil about this.  who cares if i titled it let's argue instead?  it was just marketing.  an argument is juicy.  people are attracted to them.  if you would have looked at this thread and not seen the title, there would be no problem.

i enjoy it when people comment just to make themselves look better/smarter than everyone else and end up making themselves look like an butt.  if you want to debate this, let me know.  i'm very interested in hearing what you have to say.  or, you could just not comment here anymore.  that way you can pretend like you didn't read this.

psy - i must have skipped over the part that said you were in favor of assisted suicide.  i would write another post taking up the opposition now, but now that i've already made  a statement, i don't know how much sense that would make.  i will do it though, if you like

[Psypunk]

Ha ha..don't worry about taking up the other side of the assisted suicide argument fred, my retort would be, "in retaliation I would like to say everything you originally said on this topic"  

Here's one that a friend and I have been debating. "Would America be able to survive under the same system of Government (Democracy) if our population and natural recourses equaled that of China's? (US population = about 280 mil. we have tons of natural recourses. China's population is 1.2 Billion and they don't have nearly as many recourses or as favorable climate, location, etc.."  Actually, that is to political of a debate...here is another one that I have been talking about with some friends, "Does spanking lead children to be more violent?"

I say No, spanking does not lead to children becoming more violent.
   

[fredhedd]

leading by example is a good way to do things.  

i suppose there could be some research done on this to prove it out.  maybe there was already some done.  

there are things that are alright for you to do, but not for your child.  usually these things you don't do in front of your child.  drugs, cursing.  you don't want them to see that it's alright to do these things even though you may feel it's fine for you to.  

they view your actions and act accordingly. they do what we do. this doesn't just apply to children.  all over the world people mimic each other.  sometimes not even realizing it at the time.   have you ever done the yawning bit to someone?  making sure you are in someone elses sight, even their peripheals, you yawn.  even if the other person isn't tired, there is a very good chance they will also yawn.  this works very well if you are already speaking w/ someone and there aren't many other distractions around.  just seeing violence, feeds violence.  in this sense it would be more sub-consciously, but we all know how powerful the sub is.

children are too young to understand any reason why it would be alright for you to hit them, but not alright for them to hit another.   if such a reason even exists.   its contradicting to see them be hit, and then get yelled at when they do it.  

to consistently experience pain will lead to unhappiness.  in a lot of cases i would say it will also lead to anger.  even after the moment of pain, there will be reflection.  it makes sense that if someone were more happy they would be less violent, less angry.

hitting children shows them that you can solve a problem w/ violence, even if you are telling them otherwise.  they get hit until they do what you are telling them to do.  if it works for you, it should work for them, right?  maybe they won't do it in front of you because of the punishement involved, but as soon as you take that punishment away, there is nothing stopping it from happening.  

people refrain from doing certain things because they will be punished.  not because they are wrong.  the reason for laws.  until they can tell the difference between right and wrong, for themselves, the only things stopping them from being violent is violence.

[monicat777]

I don't care if hitting your kid makes them violent or not. Look at how small and helpless children are. They depend on you for everything. Their is no reason what so ever to use physical force against them. However, I can see smacking their hand real quick if they reach up to stick it in a frying pan or something..lol That's just a safety issue.  Parents that hit their kids are just bad impatient parents who don't take the time to really be WITH their children. The only way I would ever be forceful with my kid is if they were like...satan child. Just born that way, and through no fault of my own terribly evil...(eyes rolling back in head, ripping my hair out, biting me etc.) But, even then only forceful enough to subdue(sp?)them. And that never happens...they always get it from somewhere!! I've seen jenny jones...with the drill sergent guy..whats his name?? Raymond Moses lolololANYWAY...
Let's argue about the definition of debate or debate the definition of arguing! AAAAAnd...
Assisted suicide is a good thing.
I do believe in e.t.'s (saw a spaceship)
Pot should be legal and alchohol illeagle.
Prostitution should be legal.(not for me..just in general lol)
President Bush is a moron.(the apple doesn't fall...)
down with the electoral college..(democracy anyone?)
Gays should be allowed to adopt children.
Men or People with no adopted children should not be allowed to oppose legal abortion.
I propose cable t.v. and internet access for the entire population of the middle-east so that they can be distracted from war, polotics,and religion long enough to build their own middle-eastern hollywood. I think it is a viable solution, as opposed to war..Believe me people, it's nothing that a coupla' grande lattes can't fix!

[strwrs_guru]

monicat..... im sorry but i dont think you are old enough to say some of the thiongs you just did. george bush is bad because "the apple doesnt fall far from the tree?" c'mon you dont even know his father or what he did.  all you are showing us is that you are easily duped by other peoples opinions... because thats the only place where you have heard about george bush sr.  and spanking kids...... absolutely!!!!  there is a huge difference between a spanking and child abuse.... you just happen to be from the generation that believes kids are on an equal level with the parents.
i am not talking about human rights violations against your kids, but what i am saying is that ones kids need to learn RESPECT!!!!they need to be afraid of the consequences of skrewing up. i know how bad this sounds, but, kids do need to have a small fear of their parents...not the holy crap they are going to beat the sh.. out of me and put me in the hospital kind of fear... but again a fear that makes them police their own behavior to a certain degree because they are afraid of what the parent is going to do. without this fear a child will not stop themselves from certain bad behavior.....this is what keeps most people in line in society..... a fear of going to jail...if this fear was not here i can think of certain people i would eradicate off the face of the earth.without the fear what would stop people from doing pretty much whatever they wanted to whoever they wanted?


and gays being able to adopt?    no way!     i dont have anything against "gays"(nice word by the way) but i feel doing this to a child is worse than [:O] spanking. this kid is going to be having an abnormal amount of crap coming at him or her because kids are cruel!
they will take this kind of situation and tear them apart because of it.  It really ticked me off when my 9 yr old daughter came home and told me about the book they read in school, MY TWO MOMMIES< or whatever it is called. this is an issue that i wanted to shelter my girls from until i was ready to tell them. first... the school took this decision completly out of my hands.... second... it brought up the issue of sex with them which i was also waiting for my timing....
and third.... we are a fairly religious family and my girls both know what the bible says on these issues(gays) and that opened a whole can of worms there!

other than these things i agree with you..

and i apoligize(sp)  for tearing into you.... i really am not as assholeish as i sound....i just wish people would educate themselves more before they start taking such firm stands on things.



oh just one more thing.....i feel that if you can tell us what the name of the drill instructor on the jenny jones show.... you are aparently watching tooooo much trash and not enough educational stuff. (but i will agree that it is funny to watch people make complete asses of themselves)

[monicat777]

Excuse me SIR..First of all, you are not even 10 yrs older than me. I mean, when you were my age it was okay to bring a child into the world, but not to have political views?? GIMME A BREAK!!!!  I didn't intend on elaborating on my view of why I believe Bush is a moron. I think his father did a poor job as well.  That is my oppinion and I am entitled to it, regardless of what you might think. Further, don't bash people on their level of education! Especially not while making obvious grammatical errors. Seriously, it looks foolish.

My dear, our generations are NOT that far apart. Don't make assumptions about how other people may or may not have been raised based on age. It's just discriminatory and in no way indicative of one's upbringing.

RESPECT is built out of LOVE AND TRUST not FEAR!
I'm so sorry if you are too OLD to understand this OUTRAGEOUS point of view. Children are innately innocent. Fear teaches them to lie, fear teaches them to cheat and sneak. If you are on a level above them and you don't care to get down onto their level, to explore life with them, and truly teach, then that's on you. One day...you WILL agree with me.

You tell me ONE thing that a child could do.. (without following the poor example set forth by an irresponsible adult at some point)that would deem them worthy of you putting your hands on them in a violent way(and it IS violence)? Just one thing that warrants them feeling even smaller and more helpless than they already are? Any reason at all.. something that a CHILD could do, to deserve the feeling, that the only people on the planet responsible to love and protect them, now have to physically hurt them and rip that sacred shelter away? Because that's what you are doing.

Fear doesn't keep people out of jail..wanting to be a productive member of society keeps people out of jail & it has nothing to do with finding a way to justify spanking a child. Maybe wanting to be a productive member of society instead of fear would keep you from hurting another person if you weren't raised like an animal.

I respect you being ticked about the book your 9 yr. old read!! That is potentially objectional material and you should have been notified!!

As far as 'gays'..(i dunno if you know any homosexuals [i'm going to go out on a limb and say probobly not]..but they do refer to themselves as GAY) Maybe it's not P.C. to pluarlize it, but I don't really care.

You are lucky..your children have parents. Many children do not. Your argument about the flack they will get in school is just stupid. I'm sorry, I'm just going to be blunt. Gee let me think, what will do more damage...a child being raised by the system with no family to speak of, or being teased in school and having loving parents in their life??  Yes children can be cruel. They get it from idiotic parenting and then from eachother.

If you are going to teach your children what the bible says about homosexuality as a tool to deal with this issue (as opposed to 'love thy neighbor', 'do unto others..','shalt not judge..'[you know all of the truly GOOD and PRODUCTIVE things the bible can teach]etc.) then they will be the exact children that make life so difficult for the children adopted by homosexual parents. Because YOU will teach them that it is unacceptable and abnormal.  So people like YOU are responsible for the torment these kids have to face and the damage it does!!!

Also...(back to the bush) YOU WE'RE 14 WHEN BUSH SR. WAS ELECTED!!! This is BASIC MATH PEOPLE!! I'm sure you were the leading news source on polotics at your junior high. C'mon!!!!!!!!

BTW I live in America, the land of media and pop-culture. Yes, I watch television and that includes trash as well as "educational STUFF".<--as you so eloquently stated. I read books as well as magazines..WHAT'S YOUR POINT?? Oh I remember..certain people can only grasp so much at once.

I don't think you are an moron...this forum is called LET'S ARGUE after all.lol  I didn't take it personally and I don't have ANYTHING against you.  (well except for an obvious distaste for some of your beliefs)  But, they are yours and you're entitled to them.(and you don't need me to point that out!)

I feel my reaction to your post was just considering the words you chose to express some of your oppinions. If you are offended then you are offended.

DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH ME HERE?

[Nerezza]

DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH ME HERE?


I havn't read anything on this thread but keeping with the name of it, I will have to disagree with you(whatever that is).

[monicat777]

well I guess if it was just for the sake of argument..I can respect that.lolol But somebody must agree with me??? No one would accuse you of being off topic! wait hmm...if you agree with me then say why you DISAGREE with strwrs_guru! I'm starting to confuse myself.lol

[Nerezza]

I humbly withdraw my disagreement.

[strwrs_guru]

monicat,

o.k. ya got me.i dont have the greatest of grammer. bu8t my math skills are certainly better than yours lol   . bush sr. didnt come into the presidency until 1988....that made me 18...and i was in the military at the time....but you are right, i did come off a little strong and again i apoligize(sp). I have become somewhat opinionated in my older years lol. i do have a tendency to think i know it all and i like to try to spread my so called smarts around at the expense of others. i think i was angry at something else and took it out on you and your opinions.

and you are half right, gays do have a right to raise kids and are capable of showing just as much love if not more than the average straight couple nowadays......but you are only 24 and your child cannot be that old.. my kids are 12, 10, and 4.i live in a predominatly black neighborhood and see the cruelty of kids on the most outrageous of issues....most of all the race issue. having glasses, being chubby, having different hair, or being a different color, it doesnt matter what the issue is if you give kids just one thing you are different about they will attack it with a vengence.
you have not experienced your child coming home from being "picked on" for these slight differences, and crying their brains out, wishing they were dead, wishing they were the same as everyone else, etc.  trust me it is not only a heart breaker but very helplessly frustrating from my point of view. and the real frustrating part is that these are kids that they started kindergarten with and were color blind and difference blind in those early years. you know that these children are being taught this kind of hate and it really pisses me off. these innocent children are being corrupted by a bunch of bitter adults.

i know i know you think i am doing the same thing to my kids but you are wrong. on the issue of the bible, my kids are fairly smart and they pick this stuff up from the pastor who speaks from the front of the church. i myself am teetering on disbelief but do not share my concerns with lifes more bogus issues with my kids. i believe they need certain exposure to various issues and then they will make their own decisions on them at a later time, i will never force my opinions on them unless it involves hurting another human being.....then they get an areful. i do not spank my kids, but i am not against it if i feel the offense is serious enough.

and im sorry but i also am calling up others to comment on the society issues of being fear based or respect for others based.
im sorry, i grew up naieve and thinking the best of everyone and have been skrewed over time and time again. this society we live in

is very selfish and the ideas of,
for me to climb to the top in any way, someone else has to fail
is extremely imbedded in to most americans. i hate that. and i wouldnt really get rid of anyone if there wasnt the fear of punishment by jail but i sure would consider doing some things like smoking a joint or ten. fear of jail is what keeps me from stepping outside the boundries of normal society not respect of my fellow man. how is smoking a joint hurting my fellow man?(well other than the killer drug cartels and stuff, but if we didnt have laws they wouldnt be here.)


and children are yes innately innocent, but they are selfishly innocent. their whole exsistence is based on satisfiying(sp) their wants. not the other kids wants...their wants. why do you think one of the main things you are always saying to your kids in the earlier years is "NO". we have to teach them about self control. and this takes years to establish because the inner desire to have ones wants satisfied is very hard to bury.


and on a lighter side...... whats the difference between spaghetti sauce, marinara sauce, and pizza sauce?......arent they all the same thing?... its like the difference between the colors eggshell, beige,light tan, and off white.........

DOES ANYONE AGREE WITH ME??

[goingslow]

I agree that bush is a moron just like daddy. []

[strwrs_guru]

you guys that think Bush is a moron cant seriously think Gore would have been better!!!!!!!

[Psypunk]

Simma down now.  
The original post said not to talk about polotics...it is also one of the common rules of debate.
So back to spanking


The concept that spanking leads children to become more violent is a relatively new idea to our society because spankings have been a form of correction in children since recorded history.  It is known that all wrong actions have negative percussions in one form or another.   Negative action=negative reaction.  If the negative reaction doesn't affect the one who performed the negative action, then the chances of the negative action reoccurring is likely.  Children must be taught this in a loving yet effective way.  Aristotle said, "Science comes to men through experience" , so I will be basing my thoughts on experience.  The first time I threw my sister's cat off the roof, I was scolded and sent to my room.  The second time I did it, I was spanked.  After the spanking, I never threw another cat again.  All the people I have talked to say that they don't regret being spanked as children.  Spanking doesn't ruin a child's relationship with parents (I have a great relation with my parents), and I have never seen any negative side effects from the spankings I (or my friends) received.  Violence comes more from feelings of separation, rejection and/or anger.  Any form of correction can cause these feelings, so it is illogical to say that spanking is the form of correction that causes violence.  A lack of correction encourages further misanthropy.  The pain of physical correction is more effective and humane with children since it doesn't cause the feeling of rejection or separation that often follow non-physical correction.  Unfortunately many in our society are associating spanking with abuse and they are ignoring non-physical abuse.  Verbal abuse seems to be more damaging to a child in the long run though.   Any kind of parental discipline or correction not done in love, is a form of abuse.
I've got tons more, and could go on forever but have a hot date I've gotta ready for. [] Wish me luck!

[goingslow]

he couldnt have done any worse.  I mean that literally.  

end of conversation on my part.  Last thing i want is to get sucked into another argument about gays adopting, bush being a genius etc..

[strwrs_guru]

o.k. sorry for the politics.

[Nerezza]

Did somebody say Bush?



Seriously though I like him. He's a little crazy sometimes but would you want someone else to be on your side in international disputes?

[monicat777]

Psypunk...I'd just like to point out that usually when kids get themselves into trouble, it's usually due to a lack of parental supervision.  For instance...WHY THE HELL WERE YOU STANDING ON THE ROOF WITH A CAT? LOL And that's exactly my point..their are many other ways to deal with kids. Yes I realise this may be more time consuming and all...but that's what it takes.

stguru..I appreciate your response and your point of view.  I got a really rough time as a kid and I can relate.I also grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood..() we were poor and I was in handmedowns..it was really awful. But it wasn't the end of the world (maybe it seemed like it at the time)but I am okay!(oh and I got confused about the yr. bsh sr. was elected..sorry, im an butt! but you still aren't that far ahead of me!)lol

I still stand by all of my points, psypunk..my parents spanked me too and we're fine but just because I'm okay doesn't make it right. Their is another way to live and people need to learn how, it starts with our children. RIGHT ON RIGHT ON!!

OKAY IM DONE...SORRY!

[strwrs_guru]

im sorry too.

[jason]

HA HA!those bush/monkey pictures are funny...

[Psypunk]

Monnicat, you could watch 4 hellians 24 hours a day? (With out locking the kids in cages).
I was an evil kid, and I wasn't even the worste one of my siblings.  Spanking soon solved that.

[fredhedd]

arguing is so damn fun and great excersize for your brain/mind.  i think there should be more of it on this forum.  friendly, of course but nonetheless fierce.  someone bring up something (non-political) that would be contraversial and i will take up the other side of the argument.  it doesn't even have to be something you feel strongly about.  bring up an argument that you've recently had w/ someone that you've won or lost.  preferably one that you've won since you've obviously had the better case.  let's have some fun.