Proof for astral projection

[rezaf]

Personally I have been called crazy by many of my relatives who know about my interest in astral projection and qigong. I try to avoid the topic but today it came up again and I had a long argument with one of them. It actually got me thinking if it's possible to prove OBE and if it has been done before. In theory it should be a simple experiment: Someone writes something and hangs it on the wall, I go out of my body in another room and then project myself to that room and read the note. However I haven't practiced for a few years and my skills are a bit rusty. So I'd like to know if anyone has done this before and if there are difficulties to do such a thing in the so called real time zone.

[Svetoslav]

Yep, i always tell to myself to try this,but when i get into OBE,I either forget and start doing something else,either i don't have enough courage and OBE time to do it.

[Xanth]

Don't worry about proving it to anyone but yourself. 

Stay away from discussing this stuff with people who you know think you're nuts.  You're not going to convince them... ever.

Each person has to come to this at their own time under their own steam.

[Volgerle]

It's possible. Remote Viewing might be more reliable though.

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Stuff 'em, they think the worlds flat. Such losers. You're in the jet set here, enjoy.
Safe travels.

[Pritchmr]

I had my cousin draw a picture and hang it in her room, and i've been trying to go see it for about a year now.. The closest I got was a lucid dream, and I ended up inventing the picture myself... I still have yet to project there in the real time zone... I've made it in her room a couple times but it was too dark! I'll get there.

[ArmyOfOne1911]

I have been in that position before... alot. It's so hard when you experience something like OBE's you want to tell the world. Unfortunately some people will think you are coo coo for coco puffs. I would always try to have these experiments etc. I would see if I could read a card I flipped over without looking at it before projecting etc. I finally decided after a while that I wasn't able to have any OBE's because this was always on my mind. Trying to verify. Now, I just experience. I find alot of my verifications happen when I am out of body. I will ask myself something and remember to check it when I "get back to body" I have had an amazing verification on my last OBE with my grandma. I saw what she was wearing... I haden't seen her all day. Got back to body... And she was wearing and doing the exact same thing I saw her doing in the OBE. That right there was a great experience.  I found that I will still talk about it to my friends... even if they don't believe it. It means alot the still be my friend after telling them. But now I really don't talk about it too much with anyone except the folks on astral pulse. It doesn't matter what they believe in the end. They will see for themselves I believe. I am just so happy I have found this gift earlier than most people. It really has changed my life.   

[Boom]

Hi rezaf,

Yes the only way to prove that it is possible to project your consciousness away from your physical body is to obtain knowledge during a projection which you would never have known before.
I tried the card trick,by placing a random unseen card face up out of sight from where I was laying. Go into projection and go see the card.  Guess what? I couldn't get it to work.  How many people in here have?

For me it was a shame, because I wanted to prove that what I was doing wasn't just some mind trick in my own head.  The purpose of astral projection for me, was to prove that there is more to life and me than just the physical world.  Yes I have had some great astral projections, very real controlled vivid dreams. But I haven't proven that its anything extra terrestrial to myself.  I'm not going to go down a belief system that I am beaming my consciousness into a wider reality based on a vivid lucid dream.

I agree with what others are saying here.  We can't prove what we dream. In fact we can barely prove that we even do dream. Its just accepted because everyone has done it.  But if you were to say to someone "I had a mad dream last night, I was having sex with Pamela Anderson".. How can you prove it?  You can't.  You can't take something none physical and present it physically. Its just not possible.   If you do want to talk to people about your experience. Instead of using the term Astral Projection, just use Lucid Dreaming.  Its pretty well accepted now that there is such thing as Lucid Dreaming, and to be honest Astral Projection isn't much different. Everything is just a label for a non physical experience.

[catmeow]

Absolutely Boom.  It's very hard to adopt a belief system based on some vivid dreams no matter how amazing they are. I have had validations in my LD/APs which were very good, sufficient in fact to convince me of ESP at the least. But there are people who experience such a feeling of utter reality during OOB that they are convinced it is real. I have come very close to this but can't say I am totally convinced.

What I do find quite intriguing though is the spherical or 360 degree vision which some people spontaneously experience. I can't find any  sensible explanation for this other than to assume it is what it appears to be, namely point consciousness operating and perceiving in it's natural environment.

[Boom]

desert-rat, wow that would be something so not only managing an astral projection to the RTZ. But to actually manipulate his physical surroundings whilst in there.   That would be incredibly impressive!

catmenow:  Yup people seem to have experiences which convince them of the realities of Astral Projection.  But the brain is good at convincing us of stuff. What about schizophrenia, where the person is convinced that they are hearing noises, or other mental conditions where the sufferer is convinced without a shadow of a doubt of something that is not real.  Also, people get convinced of an afterlife due to an near death experience. But there is still the counter argument against it that its the brains reaction to a lack of oxygen and cells shutting down etc.  I don't know, maybe I'm just too sceptical, but for me I'd like to prove it for myself by aquiring knowledge whilst in the astral that I could not have known about before.  This can be by any means, for example. Projecting to the real time zone, and seeing a unusual car parked down the road. Then getting up and going to check it out myself. Or an entity telling me something which I can later match up in reality. "My name is John Doe I died in 1998 in a house fire"  - check news history and wham wow.  Then its proven for me

[Boom]

Yeah I actually considered trying to EVP myself.  Because I figured out that if someone is deceased, then they are out of body..   So my idea was to set up a tape recording an empty room far away from where I was physically. Then go out of body, and go to the room where the tape is recording. Try and shout a lot or cause energy to get on the tape.  Wake up, play the tape back
That would be life changing if I succeeded with that one.

The biggest frustration I had, is that as much as I tried, getting a decent out of body experience at will was just impossible. I'd manage a semi decent OBE about once a month   I realised I'd have died of old age by the time I get any good at it!   If I could have just gone OBE at will, by throwing some kind of internal switch, then that'd have been awesome.

[catmeow]

Boom, I've been studying NDEs quite a lot and there really is a strong case to be made which science should listen to. The sort of RTZ validations you talk about are made regularly and reliably in NDE reports. This is something I haven't seen the skeptics address properly.  Having experienced ESP I really do know that it is real, so I reckon all these NDErs are truly seeing, accurately, from a point outside their physical bodies.

The oxygen starvation argument is nonsense, as far as I can tell. That's because their is absolutely NO statistical correlation between oxygen starvation and NDE. Let me explain....

1. In an IANDS study of 787 NDE reports, only 63.9% of cases involved clinical death or serious injury. The other 36.1% did not involve an injury which might cause oxygen starvation (many NDEs occur because the subject simply believes he is about to die, although he is healthy). Yet this non oxygen starved group described exactly the same experiences as the oxygen starved group.

2. Within the oxygen starved group, accounting for 63.9% of cases, 24.8% cases were clinically dead and 39.1% were seriously injured. According to current medical understanding, a clinically dead person can not have a lucid conscious experience, regardless of how oxygen starved they are. If your brain is so profoundly oxygen starved that it is dead, it can not think and perceive.

3. In a study by Pim van Lommel, of cardiac arrest subjects who were later revived, only 18% reported NDEs. All cardiac arrest subjects were oxygen starved, but 82% did not report NDEs.

So, we have the situation where

1) 36.1% of NDE subjects are not oxygen starved but nevertheless describe typical NDEs.
2) 24.8% of NDE subjects were so profoundly oxygen starved that medically any form of consciousness should be impossible.
3) 82% of oxygen starved subjects do not describe any type of NDE.

Statistically there is absolutely NO correlation between oxygen starvation and NDE experiences. Since there is ZERO correlation, we cannot assume any causality. Quite frankly, any scientist who suggests oxygen starvation as a reason for the experience, must explain these statistics. They can't just be ignored.

There may well be a physical explanation for NDEs, but oxygen starvation isn't it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25fBDJ1EiSA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajqSInV2oCA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[phxsun]

I believe trying to prove this has been a topic on here many a time and has never had any success.

[catmeow]

That's true, there has been very little success with direct validations. However do look at the validation thread

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_permanent_astral_topics/validation_thread-t25607.0.html

I started this thread by describing a shared dream/LD/AP (call it what you like). This was a LD in which I visited my parent's home and interacted with my mother. Later I spoke to her by phone and she described what to her was a terrifying dream, which matched my dream in every detail.  Details such as her observing me pass through the front door, make objects fly around etc. In other words, not a dream which anyone would have by chance.

[rezaf]

Has anyone on these forums done any successful direct validation experiments like what I described in my first post? I'd appreciate it if you could give me the link of the posts or threads.

[Boom]

Yeah I'm always interested in hearing stories of proof   I find it alarming that people read up about this stuff on here, try it, find it works and then start going down a huge belief system about exactly what Astral Projection is. My limited experiences has told me one thing, and one thing only:

An Astral Projection is a strong realistic dream like state in which I can control.

I have yet to find proof that I'm expanding my consciousness outside of my physical body, or that I'm communicating with spirits, and that I am anything more than a physical body. Focus models mean nothing to me. I have not ended up in any other dimensions.

[catmeow]

Got to say Boom, you do have a point. I'm agnostic on this, but certainly leaning on the side that "something strange" is going on. Something strange is definitely going on during LDs.  These are occasionally "shared" by two or more people. Also, people who are "out" are occasionally seen by others as recognizable forms in the physical world. Take a look at the Validation thread for examples.

However, direct "card trick" validations are few and far between, and the ones which succeed are dodgy, eg getting the card number wrong but the suit right. But I will keep on saying THIS:  Whilst direct validation during OBE is really hard and rare, validation during NDE is very common. I think we should be looking to NDE for "proof".

I actually have a theory that there is a law built into the very fabric of this physical universe, which disallows absolute validation. If we were able to achieve absolute validation, this would permanently let the cat out of the bag, and destroy the usefulness of the physical world as a spiritual learning environment. So I think there is a built in rule which always ensures that any experiment which might prove that consciousness survives physical death, will always produce ambiguous results. It will neither prove nor disprove it.

I've coined the phrase "observer effect" (as in quantum physics) to describe this. The act of observing, for example during an experiment, alters the outcome of the experiment in such a way as to always render results ambiguous. This is why I think Sam Parnia's Aware study will not produce conclusive results.

[ArmyOfOne1911]

I did have a very realistic OBE not to long ago. I have shared this in a few other topics but I will share this again because it's my favorite OBE that I have had.

I laid down in my bed to get some extra rest before me and my grandma went to dinner at this restaurant. I had just woken up because she called me on this intercom thing and asked if I wanted to go out to dinner. I was stoked and said sure! I laid back down in bed for about 5 minutes because she wasn't ready yet. It didn't take but 15 seconds after closing my eyes. I immediately fell into vibrations.  I literally felt my energy body if you would like to call it that.. rise above my physical. I felt extremely light. It was a wonderful feeling though. I just popped right out. I was 100% aware what was going on. It was more realistic than this right now.

I didn't see my grandma all day so I walked through the door that leads to the upstairs where she lives. I heard a BOOM as a passed through it. It took a little effort... but I walked through like it was nothing. xD

I then saw my grandma. I was tapping her on the shoulders shouting to get her attention. She didn't even notice me. I could feel the clothes as I touched. So I observed what she was wearing and doing. I mentally noted... "black shirt... grey sweats..." She looks like she is feeding the dogs. I walked to the other side of the kitchen to observe the dogs. They didn't notice me lol. xD I wouldn't either if food was almost in my reach!

About ten seconds later an entity tackled me to the kitchen floor and said "good job Cody!!!" Or something along those lines. It was a friendly tackle though. But I can't quite remember what was said because I hit the floor like a sack of potatoes. This startled me so I awoke back in my body. I immediately went upstairs (In this body) lol xD And there was my grandma. Black shirt, grey sweats, and had two dog bowls in her hands. I was shocked to say the least... Best validation so far. It's funny though because I have had OBE's that have made zero sense and were quite weird and slow... This one though was so different. I think I was so aware. Everything had color to it and was so crystal clear. There was no aches or pains or feeling of sadness for me. It was a great day.

[catmeow]

Cool.... Army, would you say that your level of consciousness was higher than physical consciousness, lower or the same? If it was higher or the same, did the experience seem "real" or "utterly real"? I understand about the fantasy elements. When these intrude as they do it makes you wonder if the whole thing is just some weird dream!

[Boom]

Thats awesome. I tried the card trick many of times. But getting a decent OBE was so few and far between, one loses patience after some months.
However I did have one interesting card trick result, which may go along the lines of "no direct validation" believe and take it as you will.

So I'd shuffle the deck face down so I dont see any cards. I'd then pull a random card out of the deck, and place it face up on a shelf. As I do this I look away and close my eyes to make sure I dont see that card at all.  I then place the rest of the pack face down on the side.   I then go to bed. From my bed I cannot see the cards at all, they are at the other side of the room and out of my sight.

I had an OBE, and went to see the card. In OBE state it was tough to see it.  I had to becareful not to guess, and create that card. But I woke up with the red 7 of diamonds in my head.  I wrote this down on a piece of paper... I then went to check the card.   Completely wrong. Black Jack of Spades.  Out of interest I looked at the pack of cards sitting on the side, and turned the top one over... bang.. red 7 of diamonds!   


That is probably the best and one and only sort of validation I have ever had.   I want more.. but to do that i need more good OBE's. Unfortunately I've accomplished like one or two a month at best. So progress is slow. Slower than trying to run Windows 7 on a 386.

[catmeow]

Boom, that's how it works.  I once tried to see the national lottery numbers in an LD. As soon as I got them I woke myself up and wrote them down. Later that week I bought a ticket using those six numbers. The lottery came and went and not one number came up.  However, in the EURO lottery, all six numbers came up. Three came up correctly and the other three came up reversed ie 43 instead of 34.  So right(ish) numbers, wrong lottery!

[Boom]

Oooh there is a big difference between predicting the card, and the lottery.

The lottery hasn't happened yet, and as such is a future prediction.   The card was turned in the past and is in the present

But yup it was an interesting validation for me.. but I need more!!

[ArmyOfOne1911]

Catmeow- I think that my awareness was definitely like it is now. Only it was different. Everything felt so much different, but I had full control over everything that I did. Making a conscious decision and then doing it. In a dream things just happen for the heck of it you know? This was extremely different in every way. I have also had OBE's that felt like dreams. That's why I definitely think that dreams are OBES, just you have a much higher awareness. I would say it was the same but felt "better". I am sure I could make it even higher though. Still really new to this!

[catmeow]

ArmyOfOne - then it was the real deal! Most of my regular dreams seem to involve flying, but don't become strictly lucid. I've always thought that these must be OOBEs in some way, even though the level of consciousness was low. It's hard to figure out exactly what is going on.... Incompletely remembered OOBEs?

[merkaba1111]

We can not give objective proof of the non-physical. Astral Projection, Remote Viewing, Lucid Dreams are all subjective experiences that can not be validated with the current scientific method, at least not yet. Try not to worry about proving the reality of these experiences to anyone else but yourself. Often times we feel like we need to prove it to someone else in order to convince ourselves. Keep a healthy balance of open minded skepticism and enjoy.