Split Topic OBE

[Xanth]

What I've experienced is that when I become lucid in a dream I know that
I'm dreaming. It's just a dream and I'm lucid, nothing special about that.

But the few OBE separations I've had, even if they only lasted a few seconds,
were completely different. My mind was clear as during a normal day.

Without realizing it, you've already figured out the difference.
You just said how they were different.  That is the only difference between the two labels.

Let me ask you, Pauli, and everyone else here...
Do you feel exactly the same first thing upon waking in the morning compared to later in the day when you're "more awake"?
I certainly don't... when I wake first thing in the morning, all I know is that "I woke".  Later in the day, I feel completely different to that "just awoken" feeling... I feel wide awake, alert and aware.  Does anyone else see the connection here?

Well, a lucid dream can be compared to you just waking up in the morning.
The AP/OBE can be compared to you being "more awake" later in the day.

Do you see the comparisons?  It's really just that simple.

[Pauli2]

Let me ask you, Pauli, and everyone else here...
Do you feel exactly the same first thing upon waking in the morning
compared to later in the day when you're "more awake"?

Probably not, but the difference is very small compared to the less aware 'me' I am,
when I LD.

First of all, it probably is of importance to note that I have never ever managed
to induce an OBE on my own. All my (few) OBEs have started after I have woken
up in SP, just mentioning it as I think it bears some importance.

Secondly, when I wake I may still feel tired, not being completely awake, but
still, I know that I'm aware in a much clearer way than in an LD.

[[ --- Sidenote --
Also, at a few times when I wake up and don't realize where I am or have
to figure out that I'm awake, is not to be considered totally aware by my
standards. It may take a few seconds after having awoken for me to realize
that I'm awake. But, when I've realized that I'm awake, and often that
realization comes in an instant, specially if I fade out from an LD, I'm
always aware that I'm awake and also in almost full awareness compared
to less aware 'me' while LDing.
-- end of Sidenote --- ]]


When in an LD and my longest LD so far has probably been over 2 minutes
(more than 120 seconds), I'm _not_ tired, not in the way I can be when I
wake up, but I'm at the same time _not_ completely myself in my LD.
My mind is kind of slippery, lacking something and I'm just not myself.

Perhaps I'm worthless at keeping awareness in my LD state, but that's how
my LDs are. So those of you who have LDs over the length of 20-30 minutes,
maybe awareness is different for you? But I'm at such a poor awareness in
my LDs, that even if I'm not feeling tired, and fully aware that I'm lucidly dreaming,
I'm still less aware compared to when I have been drunk from booze IRL. When
I'm drunk I can still make some sane decisions.

My awareness when I've OBEd from SP, has been at least as good as when I wake
up in the morning and becoming aware that I'm awake. Loosing awareness in OBE has
then happened quickly for me and I go from OBE -> LD -> regular dream in less than
(half?) a minute, perhaps in less than 10 seconds. So at least I have a huge problem
keeping awareness. (I've hoped to start a thread on that matter, but right now I'm not
sure how to go about it, so it will have to wait. One problem is that I have to wait for
those rare occasions of SP I get, to try OBE.)

I would compare the difference of awareness like going from an LD, where I try to talk
to people (dream figures), but forget to do my important stuff (LD experiments, gaining clarity, etc),
to waking up. The 'me' that has woken up, is suddenly aware of what I forgot to do while I was still LDing.
The LDing 'me' may just be running in circles, enjoying the LD experience, sometimes
trying to do something sane, but more often quickly giving up when nothing really
happens. The LDing 'me' is also having severe problems with keeping consistency
in my actions, even when I seem to have put an intent into exploring my dream
surroundings.

And the lucid 'me' in my LD doesn't have the same awareness as the 'me',
moments later, when I'm awake.

The 'me' which I am when I OBE, has always been at least as aware as the
'me' at the time I wake up and realize that I'm awake in the morning.

phh... I probably should stop iterating over the same things I'm saying right now.
I probably can't make my response much better. Anyway, I experience a difference
between LD awareness and OBE awareness. Where OBE awareness is much closer
to physical life awareness.
---

Also there is something more than just awareness. There is a difference in perception
between my LD 'me' and my awake. I just seem to perceive my 'world/mind' so much
better while OBE or physically awake, compared to my perception of myself and dreams
surroundings while LDing. I perceive much clearer in the physical.

Maybe I also should point out that there is a slight reduction of my perception (and possible
awareness) when I do retrievals Moen-style (which he learnt at TMI courses like Lifeline,
so maybe it's more correct to say that Moen-style retrievals really are TMI-style.)

I use the word 'perception' here as a means to observe myself more than observing my
retrieval surroundings, which can by quite blurred as I only "see" them by minds-eye to 99.5 %
(a few extremely rare times I have got actual visuals with my physical eyes).
---

Anyway, perhaps there are two parts to the OBE - LD difference: Awareness and (Self?) Perception

[Lionheart]

Also, at a few times when I wake up and don't realize where I am or have
to figure out that I'm awake, is not to be considered totally aware by my
standards. It may take a few seconds after having awoken for me to realize
that I'm awake. But, when I've realized that I'm awake, and often that
realization comes in an instant, specially if I fade out from an LD, I'm
always aware that I'm awake and also in almost full awareness compared
to less aware 'me' while LDing.

The reason for this is in a Lucid Dream, you are awaking normally with the dream already in progress. You don't know where you, how you got there, all you realize is that you are dreaming. This is startling and is enough to fog up anyone's "lenses" per say.
Now in the OBE, you are totally Conscious during it. You are there from the beginning, to the middle and all the way to the end, where you finally lose the visual. There is no shock, no surprise. Everything is more vivid here because you expect it to be. You are actually making it that was with intent and control.
I myself notice when I awaken in a dream, it is just that, "dream like", but when I take control of it, it becomes much more vivid and realistic because this is my expectation.

[Xanth]

Perhaps I'm worthless at keeping awareness in my LD state, but that's how
my LDs are. So those of you who have LDs over the length of 20-30 minutes,
maybe awareness is different for you? But I'm at such a poor awareness in
my LDs, that even if I'm not feeling tired, and fully aware that I'm lucidly dreaming,
I'm still less aware compared to when I have been drunk from booze IRL. When
I'm drunk I can still make some sane decisions.

Then perhaps we can try to assist you in learning some techniques to not only increase your awareness while in that lucid state, but to also improve the stability of that state too.

My awareness when I've OBEd from SP, has been at least as good as when I wake
up in the morning and becoming aware that I'm awake. Loosing awareness in OBE has
then happened quickly for me and I go from OBE -> LD -> regular dream in less than
(half?) a minute, perhaps in less than 10 seconds. So at least I have a huge problem
keeping awareness. (I've hoped to start a thread on that matter, but right now I'm not
sure how to go about it, so it will have to wait. One problem is that I have to wait for
those rare occasions of SP I get, to try OBE.)

How do you perceive the shift from OBE to LD to regular dream?
What makes you realize (obviously after you've awaken that is) that you've gone from an OBE to a Lucid Dream to a regular dream?

I would compare the difference of awareness like going from an LD, where I try to talk
to people (dream figures), but forget to do my important stuff (LD experiments, gaining clarity, etc),
to waking up. The 'me' that has woken up, is suddenly aware of what I forgot to do while I was still LDing.
The LDing 'me' may just be running in circles, enjoying the LD experience, sometimes
trying to do something sane, but more often quickly giving up when nothing really
happens. The LDing 'me' is also having severe problems with keeping consistency
in my actions, even when I seem to have put an intent into exploring my dream
surroundings.

And the reason why you "forget to do my important stuff" is due to that lack of waking awareness... the lack of astral awareness.
If you had an astral awareness, you would remember all the stuff you wanted to do and would go about doing it.

And the lucid 'me' in my LD doesn't have the same awareness as the 'me',
moments later, when I'm awake.

And what would happen if you brought forth that "same awareness as the 'me' moments later" while still within that experience?
What do you think it would feel like?

The 'me' which I am when I OBE, has always been at least as aware as the
'me' at the time I wake up and realize that I'm awake in the morning.

That's a fair assessment.  Definitely. 

I've personally experienced the wide array of awareness within a single non-physical experience.
I've had dreams where I've woken within the dream to only the knowledge that I'm dreaming... to taking that awareness and bringing forth my full "waking awareness", to where I'm exactly as I am right now.  All within a single non-physical experience.

phh... I probably should stop iterating over the same things I'm saying right now.
I probably can't make my response much better. Anyway, I experience a difference
between LD awareness and OBE awareness. Where OBE awareness is much closer
to physical life awareness.

And I experience a difference between LD awareness and OBE awareness as well.  The key is in the word you used to describe both... "awareness".
OBE awareness, at it's pinnacle *IS* your physical life awareness. 

Sometimes it doesn't get quite that much clarity... sometimes it could be 90% or less, but the closer you get that awareness to your full waking awareness, that's the goal.  Or at least my goal with every projection I have.  However, not attaining that level of awareness doesn't denote a poor experience.

Would this be something you'd be willing to try during your next lucid dream?

Also there is something more than just awareness. There is a difference in perception
between my LD 'me' and my awake. I just seem to perceive my 'world/mind' so much
better while OBE or physically awake, compared to my perception of myself and dreams
surroundings while LDing. I perceive much clearer in the physical.


Maybe I also should point out that there is a slight reduction of my perception (and possible
awareness) when I do retrievals Moen-style (which he learnt at TMI courses like Lifeline,
so maybe it's more correct to say that Moen-style retrievals really are TMI-style.)

I use the word 'perception' here as a means to observe myself more than observing my
retrieval surroundings, which can by quite blurred as I only "see" them by minds-eye to 99.5 %
(a few extremely rare times I have got actual visuals with my physical eyes).
---

Anyway, perhaps there are two parts to the OBE - LD difference: Awareness and (Self?) Perception

Actually, to me those are the same thing.  Self Perception is an attribute of being Aware.  When I say that what differentiates the experience is how "aware" you are, I'm referring to the idea that you know where you are and you know who you are.  Only knowing where you are is a lucid awareness experience... knowing where you are and who you are is an astral awareness experience.  It's not usually as cut and dried as that... but as a general guide, that's what I mean. 
Awareness also has nothing to do with the environment you're experiencing.  You can have an astral awareness while experiencing the black void.  It's about *YOU*, not the content or context of what you're experiencing.

What I've learned from my projections is that conscious awareness is a continuum.  It's very dynamic.  It's not a bunch of set in stone labels that a lot of people would like to see.  It's consciousness, and consciousness is dynamic... always changing from one moment to the next.

I'm not asking you to believe me.  I'm asking you to try it out for yourself.  When you've directly experienced the wide range of awareness levels within a single experience, you'll see.  Feel free to come to your own conclusions though after you've experienced it for yourself.  But it's very unmistakable that it'll do to you what it did to me... shake the very core of belief regarding what I previously read and learned from other people on the subject.

[Xanth]

The reason for this is in a Lucid Dream, you are awaking normally with the dream already in progress. You don't know where you, how you got there, all you realize is that you are dreaming. This is startling and is enough to fog up anyone's "lenses" per say.
Now in the OBE, you are totally Conscious during it. You are there from the beginning, to the middle and all the way to the end, where you finally lose the visual. There is no shock, no surprise. Everything is more vivid here because you expect it to be. You are actually making it that was with intent and control.
I myself notice when I awaken in a dream, it is just that, "dream like", but when I take control of it, it becomes much more vivid and realistic because this is my expectation.

Quite correct!

In an OBE, you describe having that vivid, real feeling.
You can take that lucid dream "dream like" feeling and bring your awareness up to that "OBE vivid" feeling as well all while in the same experience.

UsedToBeSkeptical,
I hope you're getting a lot out of this thread.    LoL

[Pauli2]

This thread has shifted from the original topic and for me to give any further replies is wrong.
But I'll respond in due time on your follow-up questions, when other more appropriate threads
appear. I just wanted to give one answer, but I can see now that it became too long.

[Xanth]

I split it out so we may continue the discussion. 

I think everyone will benefit from this.

[Volgerle]

yet another OBE / AP / Phasing vs. Lucid Dream thread ... 

[Szaxx]

Hi,
That may be the case, in this one the awareness is the key issue. Others have the opportunity to post views too.

This awareness is interesting in itself as some dreams I have are as real as being physically awake. You react to the scene in a similar fashion but you don't question the actions that surround you.Eg, not wearing clothes. In an OBE you do, the awareness here can be atypical to a normal dream (groggy) but the questioning of the scene is one thing as clear as being awake. In some the awareness possessed surpasses that of the physical. You have those memories instantly available where in the physical they get stuck on the tip of your tongue so to speak.
Groggy dreams you forget. Groggy feeling obes, mostly remembered. Those hyper aware ones you remember almost everything be it a dream or an obe.
Very interesting differentiations.

[Pauli2]

There's a lot of questions here. I think I've answered some of it already.

I'm not so sure I want to take a discussion on a how-to-LD-OBE basis.
There already exist lots of books and web sites on how-to topics.

Much of it doesn't work for me or work poorly, like the rub-your-hands-
to-improve-your-LD. I've been LDing and unable to show myself any "hands".
I've been hand- and foot-less. I've either had no hands/arms at all or I've
been unable to watch them or raise them into my view, and yes, I was lucid.
But I could see my stomach, hip and the upper part of my trousers & thighs
while lucid.

How do you perceive the shift from OBE to LD to regular dream?
What makes you realize (obviously after you've awaken that is)
that you've gone from an OBE to a Lucid Dream to a regular dream?

I can answer this as others may have the same experience and I want to share
what I have experienced.

First I should give some background.

As a child 7 or 9 years, I had a few LDs. They where short, then I had nothing
for almost a full life until two years ago.

SPs didn't start until I was adult and they are less common.

I've had one SP where I could hear astral noise, but at that time I knew little about
OBE so I didn't do anything. But the astral noise was so loud that I thought someone
had placed either several TV-sets or radios on loud volume outside my appartment
door or I had the ear-muscle-effect.

(The ear-muscle-effect needs some explanation. When we go to sleep, the ear relaxes
and we are able to hear finer noises, because the ear is not restrained by muscles the
same way as we are awake. This knowledge apparently lead me to not be afraid of
the astral noise. The voices were also of several young people, mostly women, and
at that time many young people lived in that house. So I assumed it either was several
TV-shows I heard or the voices of the women in the house at the time, which seeped
through because my ear was more sensitive in the SP state, due to relaxed muscles.

Now I know of the astral noise phenomena. )

I've had some very strange experiences as young mostly as a teenager, but I don't think
those episodes were OBEs but something else, so I'll leave the details out for now, but
I could sense presence of someone and I felt fear.
---

Well, my OBEs. OBEs started for me, for less than two years ago. They always start with
me waking up in SP, which is a rare event in itself.

I open my eyes, realize "ohh, it's SP", then look around. I open and close my eyes a few times.
Sometimes I try to use force to move my arms, body and legs, but nothing happens regardless
of how much "strength" I use. I'm often still tired/sleepy as I've woken up, but my mind is clear
and I'm aware, though a little sleepy.

I then try to will myself forward.

What happens next, if I'm lucky is that I start to move forward. I go OBE. I go steady as a boat, but
very slowly, like the slow movement as you move a cup of tea to your mouth.

I move in a straight line and I can't change the direction of my view, meaning I can't move
my nonphysical eyes. I feel absolutely _no_ separation sensation, not even vibrations.

I'm near-sighted (I've glasses) so I've tried to pay attention to if my sight is without sight impairment.
But the few times this has happened, I've always started moving in the direction of the wall nearest
to the bed. If I would make a guess I would say that I think I'm not sight-impaired when I start to
move, but the sensation of moving itself is so overwhelming each time that I have difficulties
experiencing anything else than joy and excitement.

At this stage I feel as aware as a day. I am not dreaming.

This moving steady-as-a-boat without being able to change the direction of my sight was experienced
by me before I read Muldoon's first book so I don't regard it as a result of any "front-loading".

Then..

Eventually I move into the wall and sometimes I've been able to feel some inner physical structure of
the wall. Everything goes dark inside the wall as there is no light there.

And somewhere here I lose it into an LD, inside the wall. My best guess so far is that once I lose
non-physical eye-sight, my physical body shuts down to sleep mode and the SP turns into normal
sleep, but with me entering an LD.

When I've been able to turn around, inside the wall, and been able to move back into me bed room.
I'm already in a dream state with the poorer kind of awareness typical of my LDs, and almost all
times I soon start to experience dream world fluctuations (I don't want to use the expression reality
fluctuation, as I'm dreaming and not OBEing any more).

Twice I've continued forward and (in an LD state) entered the entrance door to my _previous_ apartment
which I had several years ago.

So, when entering the wall I'm fully aware and now regard that state of mine as an OBE state.
Somewhere inside the wall everything gets dark, I lose my vision, and when I exit the wall
(or enter through my old, closed apartment door) I can feel my awareness has shifted into
an LD state, I know that I'm dreaming.
---

Exactly how the LD later turns into a regular dream varies. I either stay in the LD, experiencing more
and more decay in lucidity, being unable to improve my awareness or I suddenly wake up in a false
awakening (in my previous apartment).

It's really, really hard for me to stay lucid and remember what to do. Shouting "Clarity Now!" has _not_
helped. And I only once managed to hear my own voice shout, the other times I was only able to
think the words (as thoughts) before losing it.

Strangely enough, later when I wake up, I can remember most of the initial part of my LD,
but as it gets more non-lucid, my memory starts to fail on the later parts.

This was perhaps little too long a writing and not so interesting, but you got an answer.

[Lionheart]

First of all, it probably is of importance to note that I have never ever managed
to induce an OBE on my own. All my (few) OBEs have started after I have woken
up in SP, just mentioning it as I think it bears some importance.

This is definitely important to the conversation here. The fact that you are "waking up" in SP, still shows that you are not in complete control from the "get go".
I found it interesting that you go from an OBE back into a Lucid Dream. When I Consciously Phase totally aware (induce it from a physical awareness), I go from start to finish, meaning there is no after effect. I am in the Astral, experience whatever it is for that trip, then it's over. The only thing that may linger is the floating in the 3D darkness afterwards.  When I awaken in a Lucid Dream it is the same. I take control of the Dream all the way to the finish, then awaken back to the physical, so I can log my results.

[todd421757]

My experiences have led me to the following statement: If you feel a separation process where you are slipping out of your body in one of many ways, then you are having a real OBE (at least during the first few seconds). If you do not feel any slippage out of your body, then you are have an inner body experience or a lucid dream.