The desire to be special

[Noxerus]

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[timeless]

Dear Noxerus,

I love your body analogy -- very clear and so true.

Respectfully,
timeless

[Nick]

timeless,

Thanks for writing another very insightful post. As for what you wrote, there are times when I find myself getting caught up in the I/us vs. them thinking. I don't like it when I recognize it happening, so then I try to mentally wash those thoughts away. I guess the good thing is that I'm recognizing it now more than before.

Sometimes, if I look at a new person that maybe bothers me in some way, I try to see that person as the spiritual being that they really are. When I do that, I remind myself that (as you pointed out) we are all pert of the All. Every day is a lesson.

Very best,

[timeless]

Dear Nick,

Your post got me thinking of another concept which I find is true.

"What we hate most in others, is more often than not what we hate most in ourselves."

This is a biggy though in that it is even harder to identify than the I/us vs. them thing.  A great one to meditate on though.  

Regards,
timeless

[Nay]

Hi Timeless.

Very interesting... I will start by saying, everyone does have something special in them and it deserves to be noticed. The problem is when it becomes just that. You should see yourself as "special" nothing wrong with that..Just don't let it consume.

I guess I can only go on my experience in my life..
How I was treated..
By Parents.- Not too good. (don't know how many read my post in "Please Read This..Need your opinion") I broke it down to a short version. trust me..I could write a book.

Objects..not sure what ya mean there. Opinions..yep I have to confess that some opinions would upset me, but over the years I've tried to not take it so personally..kinda hard. I would get VERY defensive, but that stems from how I was treated as a child..Self-esteem plays a big part in that. Religion..My parents weren't into religion, so I had none while younger. Than we finally started go to a Babtist Church..It was sooo fear based..Always talking about sins, Satan, Hell..ect.the guilt was terrible.. Let me explain myself... I would be in school walking to my next class and would hear someone cuss, I would immediately start praying for that person, for God to forgive them..geez I spent so much time doing that..(kinda funny, when I think about it now) I didn't do it cause I felt I was better than them and was perfect, I just didn't want them to go to "HEll"  I stopped going to church, after one day some of the church members came over to our house, and saw me sun bathing in a bikini..Oh, My..you would have thought the world was coming to an end.  They preached to me forever about showing my skin as being a sin...I could never figure out Organized Religions..They talk about God being a forgiving God, and not being a judgemental God yet, the minute you did something they didn't like..WATCH OUT! God is going to bring down his wrath!  From then on I found my own spiritual path. And it has gone just fine thank-you.

I have ALWAYS tried to treat people kind..I love people they are interesting.. I have struggled to NOT be like my Mom, that's what she taught me.... she taught me to NOT be like her. That doesn't mean I won't get mad at you for being a butt-hole...and trust me, I am as mean as I am nice..I learnt that lesson years ago.  Being nice can get you into a lot of trouble and pain..BUT, it can also change your life.  Just don't be gullible, Don't let people walk all over you..that feeds their ego, making them feel "better than everybody"

Is any of this making sense?..lol..because I have had to get up several times to do something for my kids..
I agree you change when you have children, I really can't explain it..it is some kind of awareness I never had..a certain overwhelming LOVE that I have never felt...But when my first and second children were born, I was in a VERY BAD marriage. So my unhappiness spilled over into their lives....I still cringe when I think about how I just wanted them to leave me alone sometimes..(don't get me wrong, I never, ever, abused them..I have lived that and wouldn't wish that on anyone) I was just soooo unhappy, could barely get out of bed..
Now my third child..He was born into a happy, happy, happy marriage!! And now we are all benefiting from this union! I will tell you, that I have pulled both of my older children aside, and apologized for my behavior (or lack of) when they were younger, and vowed to make it right. I hope I have been doing that.  That is not to say they can't make me angry... cause they do. I just handle it WAY different than before.  That is where the Meditation comes in..lol. Take a deep breath....lol..just take a deep breath...

The outdoors, really roughing it thing.. We love the outdoors and have been camping several times..GREAT fun! But we had our blow up mattress, and lots of junk food.[]  We have spent hours in the woods, just walking, sitting, looking, basically enjoying nature.  infact, we just went to the park and woods the other day. I have definately taught them to respect and love nature..We have picked up trash from our little walks, and it makes my son mad that people could be so careless.

Good friends I have one good friend..And we keep each other grounded!

I will end this long and boring post..and say that I had also confronted ALL of my parents (except the one whom killed herself, pretty sure she is dealing with herself) And told them that I forgave them for the way they treated me.  All of them broke down except my Mom..total denial..but she is getting better, she is no longer a Alcholic, and has taken responsiblity for her actions..We are now forming a relationship that we should have had 36yrs ago, but better late than never.  I learnt years ago, to stop blaming my past for my behavior..but I did for a long time..excuse after excuse. But than again I WAS acting that way because of it..I guess I just had to "let it go"

Thanks for listening..

[] Nay.

[timeless]

Dear Nay,

By objects I meant that some people strongly identify themselves by the cars they drive and the clothes they wear etc.

Wow! You have had quite the experiences.  Nothing like experience to bring wisdom into our lives.  What you said reminded me of something Carl Jung said, "We can only change ourselves, not others".  And as another wise person said...whose name I have forgotten..."We can only change two things in life: How we treat others and how we react (or better don't react) to others."  I like these saying because they put us in the driver's seat -- as you pointed out no one to blame.

Regards,
timeless

[Nay]

Now I see what cha mean about objects..DUH..!  Even with all my experiences I can still be quite the dunce!

Funny, objects have never really meant that much to me.  As long as the car got me where I needed to go, I didn't care what it looked like. I lived in a State Park for awhile also, when I was younger..I remember some guys whom were there just for fun, were really confused as why a girl like me would live there..LOL. I am not tooting my own horn, but I am not ugly.. They went on to say.."if you were my girlfriend I wouldn't let you stay here"  I just laughed.....I miss those days in a way..I had a wonderful dream of a Angel while I was there..I raised into the air and there the Angel was, large as the sky she/he was floating in.. glowing with beautiful wings that seemed to go on and on.  

Whewwww, I haven't talked this much about myself...EVER..LOL. ya'll make me feel so comfortable talking about things like this..Thank-you.!!

[] Nay.

[kromeknight]

We are the Borg, prepare to be  assimilated resistance is useless !!
without ego's a collective of minds etc. Is this really the ultimate enlightenment. I am not refuting your post Timeless but adding a point that I have been thinking about recently I hope it's not to far from the topic. Psalm 79:5 is a small example, God has all the emotions we have. Jesus also spent most of his time either being angry or annoyed or upset by life on earth.Genesis 3:22 God mentions "one of us". Sorry about all the references but it shows that we can be different in views, emotions even have ego's. I agree we are one, one room in an apartment block called existence. we are by divine nature islands but I agree it's good to nock on your neighbours door every now and then to help, interact etc but at the end of the day we close the door to rest in our own room. Is this so wrong to do !.
krome

[timeless]

Usually I stick to the Gospels of the Apostles and avoid Paul completely.  The old testement I find a bit dated but to each his own.  As for the Gospel of Matthew it states:

Matthew 22:35-40
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, [You will note the station of the asker. He knew LAW! Very well. He would know exactly what Jesus was referring to in the answer he got because he was a son of the covenant, Jewish and knew what the instruction manual of life the torah said]  asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?  Messiah said unto him, Thou shalt love Elohim (God) with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Doesn't sound like much room for US and THEM in that sounds like WE. That is what I have been writing about.  WE as apposed to US and THEM.  One can still be unique but in harmony with all other things...connected.  

Hmmm! As for Jesus spending most of his time angry and annoyed....well we could have a really silly discussion[] about well how do you know....you weren't there... again entertaining but a little of a time waster since it is non-verifiable...so not too interested in that.  I base it on the words he left behind and his acts spoken of in the bible.

As for closing the door at the end of the day...now you are playing a very fun psychological game called....lets take this too the extreme. [] which is always amusing.  So thanks for the laugh. []

Kromeknight did you help anyone today? [One of the questions in my orignal post]  I suppose amusing me might count but I am sure you have something better you can share with us.

Au revoir,
timeless[]

[kromeknight]

Hello Timeless
I'm glad you didn't become offended and was amused. []
I didn't really want to start a Bible debate, it was just easyer for a base to express  "comforming" human thoughts. eg we must work on this to better ourself". As I mentioned in the other post I didn't want to go off track with your orginal post...lol I think I might have though. But it dosen't hurt to add a little spice when everyone agrees with you [] and I do  too, as for helping people yes everyday were ever I can I do. Saying that sounds silly, why is that?  Why do people think he's blowing his own horn or he's a goody to shoes...interesting!
I replyed in the way I did to provoke thoughts, emotion  and as I said to add a little spice []
Far be it for me to match wits with you Timeless []
Until I have something better to say... I will of cause read your post[]
krome

[timeless]

Dear kromeknight,

Wit..ch[]  Wit can be good or bad depending on the audience.  I usually don't write with wit unless I recieve a witty post.  So I in turn am glad you did not take my wit the wrong way.  

Spice is good as long as it does not overpower the natural flavour of the food -- though I might like it to overpower the flavour of food if it was bad to start with.  

As for uniqueness...as I stated before I think we can be unique but not completely separate....just connected.  Do you see what I'm getting at?  

Regards,
timeless[]

[Euphoric Sunrise]

Good post timeless, and i agree.
I just want to stress the aspect of nature. I see you addressed it in your post, but i want to make sure people take notice of it.
Much nature has been around longer than us. The tree outside my window has many stories to tell, i'm sure, and much wisdom to share. How can i, a person who only set foot on this earth 17 years ago, say i'm more special than that tree? Because i can carry out intellectual conversations? Because i can move around and play? Because i have emotions? That tree provides me with the oxygen i need to live. That's very special.
Trees breathe like us, bleed like us, and unless somebody here has been a tree they can't say trees don't have souls/spirits like us (in fact if anybody here has been a tree it would give me signifacant reason to believe they do have souls/spirits).
If people would forget their mobile phones, fast cars, brand-named clothes and take notice of other living things i think we could all form an unbreakable communion.
But of course, let's not forget we are all individual people with individual philosophies and beliefs and i think that's just as special.

[Ides315]

Hello all.

Nice thread.

Recomended reading: "The power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. Very good book. Gives a lot of insight to overcoming the "I", and things that "I" will try to keep its ground. In his opinion man was given the consciousness of self (I) as part of his mental/spiritual evolution. The problem is most people have gotten off of the ride at that point instead of continuing on to the "we" after the realization of self. There are many paths to achieve this. The we is great because it contains acknowledgement of the tree, people, all things animate and inanimate.

In my opinion the need to be special diminishes with this realization, and (for me personally) the need to share whatever "gifts" one possesses to help others comes into play. Almost everything has a beauty to it, but no one stops to see it. To busy with their own mirrors I guess.

[Frank]

This is an interesting thread.

An observation I see examples of almost daily is where people fail to keep their emotions in check. It's almost like they are slaves to how they feel at any given moment. I cannot help but think if people were to step outside of the limits they have moulded themselves by, they'd be a whole load happier.

Yours,
Frank

[Ides315]

Hey, all.

Excellent point Frank. That is the premise of the book I mentioned. Most of what people use to define themselves is infact the ego defining itself and passing it off as you.

[Nay]

quote:Originally posted by Frank



This is an interesting thread.

An observation I see examples of almost daily is where people fail to keep their emotions in check. It's almost like they are slaves to how they feel at any given moment. I cannot help but think if people were to step outside of the limits they have moulded themselves by, they'd be a whole load happier.

Yours,
Frank

Do you mean, like when someone gets angry, sad, excited, ect.. that they 'shouldn't' show the emotion, but hold it in?  Of course there are different levels of these emotions..  I mean you can't go around getting ticked-off at simple things like, your shoelace came undone, but sometimes you just need to cry or yell..ect..

I am one of those people whom "what you see is what you get"  I use to hold in all my emotions, and I know that can't be good..[]

Once again, I am probably not explaining myself very well...Not too good with words..[]

Gave it a shot!  Nay. []

[timeless]

Dear Nay,

I think what Frank was getting at is that a lot of the arguements we have are I/US and THEM arguements.  Many not all arguements but many of them are due to ego.  Another big bulk of arguments are due to Shadow. People would be much happier if people could move into a WE mentality.    

Here is a very good website discussing Shadow and the US and THEM phenomena.
http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/shadow.html

Regards,
timeless

[Nay]

Timeless, that link was FANTASTIC!!  Thank-you for posting it...

I have soooo much to say, don't know where to start..[] (don't worry, my mind has alot to say, it's just getting it out is the problem)

The first thing that's interesting is the Jung's Personality Types
What I found is, with all of them except Thinking VS Feeling Types I am some of both..? but with thinking and feeling I am definately "feeling"  Am I suppose to strive to be one or the other, or a little of both?

Re: Shadow  
Quote, (sorry I didn't write the name down)
"But there is also my shadow, In a sense, the shadow is all of that which is "dark" (unconscious) to me; but in a more special sense, it can be an activated center(complex) energized by repressed feelings, anger, old hurts, etc..  If not recognized as such (made conscious), it's energy can be projected onto others.  Then the faults I see in other people are really the mirror image of my own.  My first task of individuation is to own my own shadow"

Ok...WOW!  I am going to pat myself on my back for that one, because I did exactly that in my life..I recognized those angers, and old hurts in my life (not all at once mind you) but took years.  And was absolutely the better for it..In another aspect of it, I would find myself being angry at someone for something they did.. But I soon realized that I was JUST as guilty as they.  I changed my attitude, because I basically felt, "well, geez..if I hate the way they are acting, then I must hate myself"  And I would not go on any longer "hating" myself. I wanted to be proud of who I was, what I stood for, how I treated other people.

Re: Anima-Animus

Another interesting topic. I have come to terms with this also..Well, not all the way..lol..but I certaintly am more assertive, and like to think I have a fighting spirit..What is more interesting, in most of my dreams I am in control and take charge of most situations.  In other posts I mention how I am saving, and taking charge of people whom seem to need help. Sometimes large groups sometimes one person..This brings me to the next thing I wanted to mention.

Re: Mana Personalities

What I gathered was if you go a little crazy with the Mana, it is called Megalomania.  e.g. a woman who allows her conscious mind to be invaded and subdued by the great Mother, will begin to believe herself able and destined to protect and nurture the whole world.
Hmmmmmmmmm..Kinda sounds like I have Megalomania in my dreams..Guess I need to figure out what THAT is all about..

Anyhoo, I have gone on enough...but don't worry I am not done reading up on this stuff!!

Thanks again, Timeless, for the link!

[] Nay.

[timeless]

Dear Nay,

Jung's Personality Types:
Most people are some of both.  Usually on the tests given to people a percentage is placed on each personality ie.  60% Thinking 40% Feeling.

Glad you enjoyed.[]

Regards,
timeless

[kromeknight]

Hello Timeless

As for uniqueness...as I stated before I think we can be unique but not completely separate....just connected. Do you see what I'm getting at?


In answer to your question, yes.
The replies from everyone else is also insightful, I'm not given to flattery. But I can not deny
the wisdom of your posts in general. I love reading them and hope you keep writing them.
The connection between "us" as a whole is undisputable. Eg: I have never   meet any of you
who read or write the post in this forum but I look forward to switching on the computer and
seeing how everyone is going, I missed you timeless when you deleted your previous posts
and departed for a time.  I have laugh often at kakkarots annoyance with  ki ball blast. I
could go on with many other examples of how this one web site touches my life because you
are 'people' but you already know what I'm saying. We can all say how special everyone else is
here. Within our life and  beyond the front door everyone and everything becomes apart of us,
no one can debate this. The people of this world have cried together often, laughed and
questioned as one. I am not special in my own eye's but my kids love me and I do make a
difference, to other people even if it's just a smile in passing on the street. We change,
fashion  the course of peoples life's   everyday, often without knowledge of it but we should
care and most people do.
Thank you Timeless for being you []
krome

[timeless]

Dear kromeknight,

That was very nicely written to all of us.  Thanks.

Did you get my wit..ch joke?  For wit by nature can be a bit cutting and a woman (such as myself) can sure look like a witch using it. I mean that in the ugly,warty, Halloween type witch way and do not mean any offense to nice witches out there.[]  

It is so very difficult to separate 'the special' of who we really are from 'the special' our ego would like to make us out to be.  Often when I have cut off the head of ego (or thought I did) it just grew back and sometimes with more heads than before.  

To discern what special really means, I find it helpful to think of those crazy old guys living in caves in the mountains of the Himalayas...no one to impress just themselves, nature and God and a few other crazy old guys in distant caves.  However, when a 'normal' person (crazy enough to go looking for one of these cave dwellers) finds one...they cannot stop talking how special that person and that moment was for them.

Best Regards,
timeless

[Nay]

Hope I am not one of those witches..lol...because I tend to use humor a lot!! But can be quite cutting also..when it is meant to be..

Krome- I too look foward to reading what everyone is experiencing..and those "not again" post...ohhhh too funny!!

Nay. []

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Nay

Do you mean, like when someone gets angry, sad, excited, ect.. that they 'shouldn't' show the emotion, but hold it in?

Unfortunately, people have misunderstood my meaning of remaining emotionally closed. So I changed the wording and now use the phrase emotionally neutral. People can be so polarised with emotion it becomes a case of either let it out... or hold it in.

For example, like where you say that you can be "cutting" also.

Yours,
Frank

[Jonas K strand]

emotions and whether to show them or not was discussed...

i would really love to share something i learned and expeienced on a vipassanacourse.

we probably all agree on that not expressing the emotions, bad or good, doesnt take them away. as i first heard and then experienced is that the emotions is only reactions on physical sensations. a bad sensation will build a state of mind that will do everything to get rid ot that sensation. so tense. the mind trying to work right against the body.

pain for example. the hate created towards pain will not take pain away, you can feel it without reacting, with a quiet mind put the sensaitions in the focal point of your awareness, to actually feel the pain as what it is, energy, rising and passing. its painful in the begining but with much practice and equanimity towards the pain.  pain is not pain and not worth reacting on.

i dont think this technique makes dead vegetables, but i think it makes controled minds that knows about the true nature of things, "good and bad". not reacting in circles, on bodily sensations, but acting as it is best to act, depending on the situation.

thank you!

yours
//jonas

[timeless]

Dear Frank and Jonas,

My original topic for this thread is basically I/US vs. THEM mentality.  Not so much showing emotion or not or being emotionally neutral.  This is a concept Frank added...so I will let Frank discuss what he has introduced.  I know this is a favourite discussion of his since it is very important when one projects into the Astral and I doubt Frank could stress it enough....but it is a little different than what I was originally gettting at.

There is a relation between the two topics in that moving past I/US vs. THEM mentality is one of the things that helps us develop emotional neutrality.

As for the wit and cutting thing well like I said originally...it all depends on the audience.  How people react to it(meaning they lose neutrality).  Which is why I only post witty posts if I have recieved one.  Then it is less likely to be misunderstood and hurt someone.  

When dealing with people we are responsible for two things:
(1)What we say and do to them (meaning understanding the audience is very important...tough over the internet).
(2)How we react (or better still act) in response to what they say and do to us.    

Best Regards,
timeless